Volvo S60

volvomax · August 2004

The auto tranny in the R is incapable of dealing with the full torque output of the engine. Thus, the engine's output is limited in 1st and 2nd gears. Once you get to 3rd gear the car really wakes up.

Two words about the T5,torque steer. The T5 is faster at lower speeds, but is much harder to drive and control. The R feels much more planted and stable. Plus, your buying the better interior, 4C chassis and AWD.
We don't even carry the T5 at all anymore.

triumphbobk · August 2004

I were to buy an S60 outright and could get an R for only $5k more than a 2.5T AWD, would it be worth it assuming that I tend to keep cars for more that 7 years? Other than the obvious fun factor for the R, I'm worried about the long term reliability - the summer/winter tire changeover issue and the 18" rims propensity to get damaged easier, and overall higher maintenance due to the higher tech design over the AWD. Are there any dealer incentives on the AWD or R that I don't know about? I know the R would be alot more fun, but is it a "keeper", or just enjoy for a few years?

lexusguy · August 2004

sounds like Volvo needs to get a better, performance oriented automatic. Maybe borrow the ZF six-speed from cousin Jaguar.

qbrozen · August 2004

well, yes, they need a better tranny. However, the problem is more the effect of AWD than anything else. With all that traction, it can't spin the tires easily to spend that energy, so it has to spend it through the tranny (or, in the case of a manual, the clutch). There aren't many auto transmissions that could handle that. the only reason many manufacturers can get away with an automatic in a high-power car is because it is just rear-wheel-drive and the power can be absorbed by spinning the wheels.

volvomax · August 2004

Technically, Volvo employs transaxles. Jag being RWD employs a conventional transmission. ZF makes some wonderful stuff, but they don't make FWD transaxles.
Help is on the way though. Volvo will debut a 6 spd transaxle in Jan.
This tranny should be on the next R.

volvomax · August 2004

Is it worth it?
Comes down to personal preference and ability to afford the car.
$5k is alot of money for some people.
The reg AWD S60 is a nice car, but the R is more soul stirring to me.

cmnott · August 2004

I always thought that it was because it was transvers and thus less play than a longitudinal mount, like an inline 6 from a BMW...

Anyways, the brake thing. I have never had to pay for a brake job in 11 years. Actually, forever now that I think about it, but 11 years of leasing and low mileage at that, brakes have never been an issue.

My wife's old Contour's brakes pulsated and they replaced them...she had 16K miles on the rotors. For them to pawn it off me and say that I don't drive it enough, that rust causes warping, etc...every excuse in the book, I am sorry but it is simply too early. I even called Volvo and they did jack snot. So basically it comes down to a face to face with the manager and my last resort will be to have the brakes done anywhere else but there.

As a 32 year old who is fortunate enough to have tha ability to purchase fine cars, I will let them know that a BMW dealer is a stone's throw awat from my house...Mercedes too.

triumphbobk · August 2004

What was I thinking? Of course its worth it - especially when you can get a demo R for 35k! Just closed the deal. Picking it up tomorrow. I can afford the car, and I figured that the R will maintain its value if I want to sell it in a few years.

Now the only problem is when my 'soul stirs' I'm afraid I'll start seeing those flashing lights in my rear view. I haven't had that feeling since my TR6 was on the road 20 years ago (now in a hundred pieces in the garage) - at least I'll have a smile on my face when they take me away.

Thanks for the input.

lexusguy · August 2004

Hahaha. I know the feeling very well. I've gotten 5 tickets in a single year before, fortunately, none of them have been for more than 90mph. I took my old XJS-V12 up to 145mph once, but wasnt caught

The wind noise at that speed (convertible) was absolutely brutal. I've flown an open cockpit bi-plane before, and it was the same kind of feeling. The XJS' '70s era design wasnt designed with wind blocking in mind. It sure was a hoot though. Perhaps it may be time to consider investing in a Valentine 1?

njdriver1 · August 2004

If its true the s60 will have a cosmetic upgrade for 2005, will this help the turning radius (fender flaring, etc)? Has anyone seen any spec's on the 05? Does anyone happen to know what the lead time is to order a 2005 2.5awd or R?

rez · August 2004

I am getting into one, but need some advice. Should I wait for the 2005. Cosmetically the only difference I saw is the body color trims on the sides and bumpers and the body a bit more curved than the 2004. I have bargained down about $7285 from the MSRP. Is this a good price, or should I hammer the dealer a bit more? Please advise.

grantchstr · August 2004

The new S40 looks similar to the S 60. I might get ab S40 when my S60 lease expires. Any comments on the differences?

lexusguy · August 2004

The S40 is a complete redesign, which I believe is based on the Focus\Mazda 3 platform? So far its gotten positive reviews, certainly much more so than the bland old car. Things like the narrow, waterfall center stack are also major departs from the flat, wide and dark control schemes of the S80 and 60.

volvomax · August 2004

The improvements are cosmetic only. No sheet metal. So no fender flares.
The first 05 R's that we have coming are scheduled for December. The cutoff for ordering one of those is Sept.

s60 2.4 · August 2004

I bargained down 7.5K with my 2004 2.4. as I did not want a turbo model. If you are going to purchase I would recommend doing it at this time because the 2.4 will be discontinued entirely as of 2005. All 2005 models I was advised will all be Turbo. I would say go for it, if you really want the car.

njdriver1 · August 2004

Thanks, Volvomax. Has Volvo stopped producing the 04 R? That would mean only current inventory available until December?

I'm also a little confused as to the power reduction issue on the automatics. I understand why it happens, but is the result going to make an R perform very much like the 2.5AWD? Which makes the differences between the cars cosmetics (that word again)?

lexusguy · August 2004

The S60 2.5T AWD and R automatic might be within a few ticks of a second to 60, but I would expect the R to pull away as speeds approach triple digits, and more of a difference in the quarter times. That said, the current automatic doesnt seem well suited to the R at all.

njdriver1 · August 2004

Interesting - I need to get into both cars to see if there is an appreciable difference in everyday driving. Since I'm not often driving near 100mph, that won't help me. But its hard during a test drive to take a car to highway entrance ramp and step on the gas without a few grimaces from the salesman, or get it up to 60 and try to accelerate to pass someone. Since I do most of my driving in urban traffic I need automatic (manual is simply too impractical - too much ankle and knee pain from too much shifting).

volvomax · August 2004

All 2004 production ceased some time ago.
As for the R auto, I personally prefer the 6 speed, its what I own.
That being said the R auto handles better than the 2.5T, and is quicker once you get past 50-60 mph or so. Once the R auto reaches 3rd gear it takes off. Plus I like the attention to detail on the interior of the R better.

rqc · August 2004

I have the R auto and it's plenty fast and well thought out, especially the functionality of the manual mode. It does have the torque limitation in 1st and 2nd gear though.

But when you press the S (Sport) button by the shifter, you get the throttle response that is otherwise only available when you press the Advanced suspension button. So you can get the throttle response of Advanced with the more livable suspension settings of Comfort and Sport. This is not a combination that manual transmission owners have available.

I will grant that if you want the absolute fastest S60R, you have to get the manual. But if you can stand having really dang fast instead of really, really dang fast, and especially if you drive in lots of traffic and/or have a spouse who doesn't drive stick, I don't think you'll find the automatic transmission version as much of a compromise as some people make it out to be.

I routinely leave everyone behind me without trying at all. Also, with the Sport Shift button off, the initial throttle response is very easy to manage making it great for heavy traffic. With the Sport Shift button on, it's so snappy to respond that you can easily squirt in and out of regular city traffic or interstate travel.

grantchstr · August 2004

"I have bargained down about $7285 from the MSRP. Is this a good price, or should I hammer the dealer a bit more? Please advise."

Q:
How does your renegotiated price compare to the TMZ on this Edmunds website? (It'll only take you two minutes to calculate).

"s6025t" also talks about that kind of discount, but the TMZ reported on this website gives a price NOWHERE NEAR those dort of numbers. So whats the Edmunds TMZ really worth - nothing?

texasmom · August 2004

How long has the expel film been on the 2001 S60? I am looking into paint protection film as I do a lot of highway driving and the bug stains and paint chips are kind of depressing. On the other hand, I read in an Edmunds article that it costs $1000 to have the film applied. I wonder how much difference a chip and bug stain-free hood would make at trade-in time. I know it can make a big difference when you sell your own car, but I'm not into selling my own vehicle.

s6025t · August 2004

Grant, I see you're doing your homework. Like I said, forget about Edmunds valuations. Volvo is deeply discounting at this time so you can use Edmunds for the bottom of your bird cage. 6500 or better discounts are for the taking. Again, in my humble opinion your 01 model isn't worth keeping for 18k including warranty when you can get a comparable 04 for about 5K more. I suspect that whomever is about to get your car back has the same opinion. I wouldn't offer much more than 12-13k and forget about the warranty. In any event, good luck.

xmf314 · August 2004

The expel film has been on my S60 for well over three years. It is expensive, however I hate paint chips on the front of my cars, so it has been worth the cost.

I don't know how much difference an unblemished hood would be worth at trade-in time.

volvo748 · August 2004

I am in the market and looking at Saabs and Volvos and a Maxima. Pricing I have for a 2004 Volvo S60 2.5T automatic with metallic paint and leather, premium package, climate package is $27,712. That is about $6,500 off MSRP of $34,265. On top of that is tax, tags, and processing fee of $265.

Is this is a fair price? Dealer says his markup is about 1.5% over invoice.

triumphbobk · August 2004

I can tell you that during my shopping experience over the past few weeks I've seen up to 20% off MSRP for a new 2004 S60 2.5T (about what you've seen) and I would have bought one except for the great deal I got on an S60R demonstrator. I would recommend that you go for the sports package since it adds sports seats, speed sensitive steering, 17 inch wheels, and 5-speed geartronic - a lot of bang for the buck.

Good luck on your purchase - I've had my S60R for 4 days now and love it.

rqc · August 2004

I have the full 3M Invinca-Shield on my S60-class, which cost about $600. Expel has fewer pieces (harder to install, somewhat cleaner appearance). Either way, I suggest you get one of them. It is so nice to have your car protected from all the junk flying around on the interstates and highways.

grantchstr · August 2004

Following up on issues about my S60 lease expiry - another option for me - is just to continue my lease for a while. This way I wont have to come up with a large amount of cash for a buy and I wont have to lock into a three or four year lease obligation on a new car. Does anyome know whether one could renegotiate the residual buy amount in this situation? This lease continuation scenario would only be a sensible strategy if the residual buy option amount reduces through time.

volvomax · August 2004

Well, a couple of things.
First, VFNA has to be willing to allow you to extend your lease. Typically they do this if you have a new Volvo on order.
You may be able to get them to extend the lease without this, but its on a case by case basis.
Second, your contract would continue as before, same payment, same mileage. Your residual would be reduced by the number of payments that you want to extend to. 6 is the maximum.
Good Luck

s6025t · August 2004

I see Volvo running TV ads appealing to the MTV crowd. I guess I'm just an old fart not keeping pace... but is Volvo's new image going to be Snoop Doggie? Perhaps 3 Doors Down will introduce a new Volvo hatchback? Seems like a major demographics change for Volvo is in the works. Sigh... why not just drive a freaking Camry...

qbrozen · August 2004

you seem to forget that people get older and eventually die. The MTV crowd (i should say, the first generation MTV crowd) has grown up, gone through college, and gotten jobs. They are over 30 and looking for cars in Volvo's price category. If a company can't keep pace with the buying crowd, it will wither away and die - RIP oldsmobile.

by the way, if you haven't noticed, Toyota thinks the Camry buyer has gotten too old, too. Hence Scion.

robr2 · August 2004

The MTV crowd (i should say, the first generation MTV crowd) has grown up, gone through college, and gotten jobs. They are over 30 and looking for cars in Volvo's price category.

Umm - we're over 40 now. "Video killed the radio star..."

s6025t · August 2004

Qbrozen - What an odd assertion you made that I forgot people get old and die. Actually, first generation MTV is over 40. Have you seen Madonna lately?

And yes, I have noticed that Toyota introduced the Scion aimed at young and first time buyers. Just the fact that you mentioned Toyota's new entry level vehicle in an effort to validate Volvo's ad image was my point all along.

Volvo marketing with hip-hoppers will likely be effective as Geritol sponsoring the next MTV awards.

lev_berkovich · August 2004

Ladies and Gentlemen,
You might want to visit the S40 boards and review some of the messages there, related to the MTV commercial, etc.

I have visited it, and, even participated in some pretty hot discussions.

My overall assessment is that even if a new Volvo approach might be seen as "odd", or I would say - different, it does bring the different buyers to the Volvo dealerships, and therefore, it works.

My 16 and 20 years old daughters consider a new S40 as "very cool". Though they love our S80 and XC90 too.

rqc · August 2004

And remember Cadillac came this close to death because they didn't shift their demographics sooner. I think the S40 plays to the 30 and younger very well, especially the ads. Notice that the ads for the S40 are all bright red cars (excitement), not the "older demographic" silver cars (status, executive).

qbrozen · August 2004

hehe. interesting that a few folks jumped up to say "we're over 40." Ummm... doesn't the over-30 crowd include those over 40? Hey, I was there at the beginning of MTV, too, [mostly through the influence of my brother who is now 36] and I just broke 30 last year. We're all in the same boat.

qbrozen · August 2004

yes, it was an odd assertion on my part. I suppose maybe I misunderstood your Camry comment. It made me think you were saying Volvo should be for older people and Camry for younger.

volvomax · August 2004

Fact is we are seeing a younger demographic for the S40. We've had more twenty and thirtysomethings coming in on the new S40 than we've had on any model for a long time.
Volvo hopes to capture these people and bring them back for S60's,S80's and XC90's as they age.

s6025t · August 2004

Qbrozen - Thanks for clarifying. The average Volvo sedan buyer (I believe the report I read was for 2002), was 45 years of age, 80% college graduates with a household income of 75k+.

As titled, Volvo image was my thrust. I think Lev-bekovich's post would be a great Volvo image-- The long time Volvo owning parents introducing their daughter to a unit she could afford with style too. Great! Instead, Volvo is creating an image far less conservative than their base-- and at what cost?

What did the hip raggae-styled beat of the "Zoom Zoom Zoom" ad do for the more expensive S60 sales? Down a whopping 36% for the month of June 04. Where did these 45 year old Volvo buyers go? To the S40? Not likely. To the S80? Obviously not since sales were also down. Did they "die" of old age in the last couple years? (grin)

Image is everything. In the sedan market that Volvo earned over the years... It would appear that Ford is discounting Volvo's image and their base in trade for lower end unit sales. I am sure that someone at Ford is asking where their higher priced sedan buyers have fled to. 36% ought to raise some eyebrows in the image dept.

qbrozen · August 2004

ah. now i see where you're coming from.

That is an interesting perspective. So was it 36% down in June compared to last June? Could it possibly be that S40 is, in fact, sapping some sales since the interior has grown to near S60 proportions? Could it also be the XC90, being that it is selling so well, is also sapping S60 sales? Yeah, I think that second one isn't as likely given the price difference, but its not entirely impossible. How do overall company-wide sales compare? I think they are up, aren't they? (i really don't know, but i think i read that a little while ago.) So doesn't that at least say that, overall, they are taking a step in the right direction (at least as far as sales are concerned)?

lev_berkovich · August 2004

Since my name was mentioned...

First of all - Volvo is doing pretty good. According to their official corporate site:

"The USA recorded its best ever six months with year-to-date sales of 69,158 units. This represents a 2.1 per cent increase over the pace of the 2003 record year. The XC90 continues to be the best selling European SUV (sales up 20 per cent). The new S40 has also strongly contributed to the sales result."

Second, I believe it is positive to bring younger people to Volvo. Volvo does need to change it's image to remain competitive. The rest of the automotive world has caught up with the safety gadgets, so it's not enough to be safe to be sold.

I have gotten to the Volvo because of the drastic changes in style from S70 to S80. And now, when my 20 years old daughter seriously consider S40 as her first "real" (new) car, I think of it as of very positive development for Volvo.

I consider myself a loyal Volvo client.
My image of Volvo has changed to the positive direction with the introduction of XC90 and new S40. Volvo can serve my family much better now. We have already gotten an SUV, that we always wanted - from Volvo, of course. And if and when we need a smaller car for the youngster - we can go to the same dealer again.

The new S40 has gotten too close to S60, so inevitable it steals some sale from S60.

S60 did steal a lot of sale from S80 3-4 years ago, when it was introduced.

s6025t · August 2004

Qbrozen. Yes, compared June 03 S60 sales dropped 36%. To answer your questions- S40 sales are up about 450 units for June whereas S60 units are down about 1250. S80 units are down 100.

Now here's is the kicker. Yes, Volvo sales YTD are up 2%. However, since the Zoom Zoom and MTV style ads have been running Volvo sales are down about 3% in June. Obviously, just a short glimpse of advertising effects, and maybe not related.

Right direction? If your were a Ford exec would you be happy to be loosing 1350 unit sales on your higher end sedans for a 450 unit increase on your low end? Zoom zoom?

qbrozen · August 2004

they're probably pretty happy about the XC90, however, since its doing pretty well and because SUVs typically carry much more profit for the manufacturer (not sure if this is the case for the volvo, just tends to be the case for most SUVs from what I've read).

lev_berkovich · August 2004

Phil,

Volvo is so notorious of not advertising on TV, that I have serious doubts that the older generation (like myself) noticed a change in the image because of the MTV advertisement. I have not seen any of the Volvo commercials, until my kids videotaped them to share with me. I think that a vast majority of the 40+ readers will agree with me.

Gasoline prices, negative (unfavorable) ratings in some publication had bigger effect on sales IMHO.

Plus,
S40 is very close to S60 in price and it's sales is less aggressively subsidized by Volvo. So a unit profit could be even higher for S40 as for S60 or S80 with incredible sales incentives for the latest.

s6025t · August 2004

Yes, the XC90 'had' been a smashing success. However, since the Zoom Zoom MTV images have been airing the XC90 has fallen in the dumper. YTD sales increase had been averaging 500-600 more units sold per month over 03 YTD. Roughly a 20% increase. Then we start Zoom Zooming and Snoop Dogie imaging.....June 04 sales fall off to just a 75 unit increase over same sales last year. Roughly a 2% increase. Perhaps just all coincidence.

s6025t · August 2004

Qbrozen, Take a look at Ford Motor sales report. It is very revealing. I'll be glad to e-mail you the link if you are interested.

lev_berkovich · August 2004

Why don't we wait for the additional sales statistics, before we draw such a depressing conclusion?

Ford is not alone, losing sales in the month of June. And I do not think that all other has ran the Zoom-Zoom advertisement...

s6025t · August 2004

Lev, Of course I agree with you. This is simply a blip on the radar screen, but I thought it might be entertaining to discuss. Though, if you consider BMW sales of it's SUVs (they call them SAVs) compared to Volvo's.... BMW reported a whopping 118% gain in sales for June versus Volvo's 2% gain for the XC90. I guess the Ford marketing experts can't use "fuel prices" as an excuse this time around. (grin).

s6025t · August 2004

Lev, I think Volvo is pulling a "Kerry" when it claims to have the best selling European SUV. BMW sold twice as many in the US during June.

juststartd · August 2004

I am a serious buyer for a new S60T. This will be my first Volvo. I've read about numerous discounts of +$7k or 20%. There is only one dealer within 250 miles of me and they aren't to motivated to deal. Can someone recommend a particular dealer who may be willing to work a deal like this. I understand this will involve shipping or me flying to pick-up the car but I'm willing to do this.

Volvo S60

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