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(1) someone said that with a Camry almost any mechanic knows how to deal with it; with a Passat, only specialized mechanics would know. Is this true, and should I consider it?
(2) The Passat 1.8 engine is much less powerful than the Camry V-6 I could get for the same price; it also suffers from "Turbo lag." But here's my real question: will the Passat turbo engine have a shorter expected lifespan than Camry engine, and if so, why? (Some say because of turbo-- is that true?)
Other factors, just responses, not questions:
(3) The Passat seat is more comfortable. But the Camry is quieter and has more ergonomic controls.
(4) Passat handles better, and has both traction and stability control; Camry would have only stability control.
Thanks - any comments and input appreciated.
The Camry, when equipped with the same safety equipment as the Passat, will be at least as safe as that vehicle if not safer (with side curtains, the Passat rates 4 and 4 in the side impact). For those who take notice of the details, the size of the seat mounted side airbags in the Camry have been enlarged this year and now covers from the bottom of the backrest to the top of the chest, and coupled with the Side Curtains, can be expected to afford exceptional protection. (The Camry w/o side airbags is rated at 3 stars driver, 5 rear passenger).
The VSC/Side airbag package on V6 Camrys includes TRAC, Toyota's traction contorl system, so the V6 Camry would have the availability of both traction and stability control.
The Passat handles better, though the margin is considerably more narrow in the Camry SE (which, with the new 3.3L V6, will dust even the Passat V6). But in the Camry SE, you may lose some of the ride plushness.
With respect to CR reliability rankings- I expect that the Camry's initial redesign year quality to be below that of the coming years- this has sometimes happened with Toyota in the past. But the VW has had average reliability that has endured since the inception of this basic structure in 98. Many of the Camrys first year issues were cabin integrity issues, which should have been remedied by now. I'd put money on CR's reliability score going up for the Camry when it is released in the 04 Auto issue.
Really it comes down to preference, and if you want your car to be a dime a dozen. There is definitely something to be said about NOT seeing yourself coming and going around every corner, which IMO, is the Passats biggest draw against the Camcords.
~alpha
1) I called a bunch of independent mechanics this morning and they all said that VW holds its diagnostic info close to the chest so that only dealers and a few specialists can do more than the basics (oil changes, etc.) Camry, on the other hand, everyone can do. For me, this seems a big plus for Camry.
2) Handling: Alpha, you once mentioned upgrading the tires on the Camry to improve the handling. How much does that narrow the gap?
Also, the dealer I've been talking to says the SE version (specifically) doesn't handle well in the snow (an issue around here) compared to the standard suspension. Is this true? I don't know how he determined that.
And does Toyota's VSC and/or TRAC solve the issue? Or not.
(Re handling it's not the routine I'm worried about-- it's when it snows, rains hard, gets icy--and when a deer or some nutty driver requires quick action on my part. If I get a Camry, will one of these things cause me to regret it?)
3) Biggest difference: I find the Camry seats not that comfortable, and VW seats perfect. Any ideas on aftermarket seats for the Camry?
Thanks again for all the input.
Brozhnik
I just learned my Camry SE (4 cylinder) has timing chains. I heard there are some problems for any cars with timing chains except the fact that it is last longer, like at 120K miles.
The firmer suspension of the Camry shouldn't affect handling in snow at all over a Camry LE, let's say. Handling degradation in inclement weather would be more due to tire size, tire compound, tire rating etc. But not due to suspension firmness. I would suspect, the Camry SE would be slightly worse in winter driving due to wider tires on the SE V6 over a base V6 camry, and it would also be worse if the tires are not really designed for winter. But again, handling in snow should only degrade slightly.
Question: Anyone else find the Camry seats uncomfortable for long drives? If so, any solutions? Some kind of support you can put on the seat? Or aftermarket replacement seats? Anyone tried any of those, or know anything?
Thanks!
I'm not really sure where you heard there are problems with timing chains, thats news to me. Can you specify?
Broz- Max said it. get GOOD all season tires, you should do alright in the snow. if you want the BEST choice, you might do well to look at the Passat 4Motion V6 models, though that will set you back a lot more than the Camry SE V6 with VSC/Side Airbags and Premium Pkg.
~alpha
1. Firstly-Alpha's comments are superb/helpful
2. Rattles have been a noted problem-more so than my 1993 Camry LE! My mechanic was able to tighten up the dash and window frames and that helped (not sure exactly what he did but covered under warranty).
3. At the time of purchase I had them take off the summer tires and put on Michelins that were used on the XLEs. I also use Blizzaks in the winter (Rochester NY got 150 inches of snow this year!) With the Blizzaks and TRAC/VSC it was flawless and I didn't want an SUV.
4. There was a transmission issue with irregular shifting (around 40-50 mph). I noticed this the first day I drove it on the highway. This took some sorting out but apparently the computer software that senses the shift point needed to be revised/replaced. There was a TSB for this I was told. They removed the original program and loaded a new program and it has been perfect. I was surprised by the whole process, but it completely corrected what I considered a subtle but annoying problem.
5. SE driver airbags were recalled and replaced.
6. There is sometimes a "thump" when cold and shifting from reverse to drive-much written about it here, but it seems less over time.
7. In my opinion, the SE drive feels considerable better than the LE and XLE in terms of road feel and handling. If the road is bumpy-you do feel it more but overall it is a nice sporty feel despite the Camry reputation.
8. Price. When new there was essentially no discounting and I paid more than $28,000 with virtually all options. Subsequently the sunroof became standard (and the price therefore dropped ~ $900), the engine became more powerful (twice now), and discounts began. I could probably get the same car (with more power) for $25,000 now.
9. Overall, the car has been extremely reliable, fun to drive, good in the snow, eye-catching (particular this color when washed), and I hope to keep for years as I did with my 93 LE.
Thanks again Alpha and other contributers-
rghcamry
Thanks ---<Rick
There is one TSB about "Console Lid Latch Availability". Do know what is about ?
I have heard a lot people (included myself) complained about "surging" for V6 engine which was described in TSB number EG008-03.
Good luck!
Doesn't my time and work count for anything???
Anyway, we went to look at the Saturn line the other night. Decided on the L300/LW300 (V6 model). Dealer would not attempt to find us a 2003 model (even with the $3000 rebate) but would gladly get us an '04!
What kills the Saturn is the "no haggle" pricing! According to Edmunds.com, I should be able to get a loased Camry XLE-V6 for around $24500. A loaded L300 is $25500 and the wagon about $1100 more. Why would I NOT get the Toyota with the quality, resale value, etc, etc over the Saturn?
Just to play devil's advocate, has anyone else compared these two vehicles? What did you like/dislike about each? We'll be test driving both cars this weekend and will most likely be buying within two weeks - and we'll miss out on the rebates, unless they're extended past 9/2.
Thanks.
Deke
Ive been very happy with my 2000 SES, nearly 3 years old next month.
Owned a few and never wanted another one, not even the Crown Vic LX Sport that is about as close to a Polica Package as you can get....
Domestics don't appeal to me - Chrysler products are either too small or too strangely designed.
Fords have been unreliable to me in the past.
Pontiac, Buick, Chevrolet have nothing that interests us. After the BS with our Olds Intrigue and the lack of assistance from GM, I'm just turned off.
The wife liked the Saturn because of the wagon availability, and the "low" price. I see no real bargain, unfortunately, since you can't haggle the price a dime.
I'm glad to see that the Toyota V6 doesn't require premium fuel - only for peak performance - and that suits me because she'll be driving the car a few miles a day to and from work, and on the weekends. With gas prices in New York this week (regular ranges from $1.87 - $2.05), I appreciate the flexibility.
Saturn's plastic body panels no longer include the rear quarters - only front fenders and doors now - and many dings happen on the rear fenders.
If I had my 'druthers, I'd build her a 72 Chevy Nova with a modern V8 with EFI, 4-speed auto and all the safety amenities (ABS, ect)!
Just looking for the ammunition to push us solidly towards the Camry. Well, I'm convinced, but SHE isn't!
Deke
I can understand if you have had Ford reliability problems in the past they may be off your list. GM is off my list for the same reason, but I have had good experience with both the Tauri I have owned. Good luck with whatever you choose.
I am glad I choose Camry LE V6, powerful 210hp, quite (it's not like my 92 Maxima) yeah extremely quite, reliable. My wife said I had to drive this car for another 10 years before I can get next luxury sedan. So reliability is my top concern. What's yours?
For the 12 years we had it, it never failed to start, never left us stranded, original battery was replaced after 9 years, one set of brakes, replaced front struts after 10 years, two sets of tires and timing belt at 62K per manual. That's it. Except for the center brake light, ALL bulbs were what it was delivered with. I wouldn't expect the same from a domestic "entry level" model.....
Now we have the opportunity to upgrade, but we're still shopping price. We liked the Hyundai XG350L - comparable to the Avalon/LS300 but priced like the Camry - until we looked at resale value....there was none!
Toyota's reputation is what's swaying me, especially after the excellent service that little Tercel gave us! And I'm a V8 rear wheel drive kinda guy, too!
I think I've got the wife re-convinced to get the Camry because of the price. They just don't seem to understand about resale value or such....
Deke
~alpha
Talked the wife out of a SUV as we really don't need one - she liked the Kia Sorento, Jeep Liberty and Hyundai Santa Fe. Her main worry is driving in the snow. I have traction control in my Olds Intrigue and didn't get stuck in all the white stuff we had last winter, so she's OK with a car with TC.
Time is running out on getting an '03 model and prices on the '04 are higher, according to Edmunds. An '04 XLE-V6 with VSC and Premium Plus is over $26K. Add TTT and it's around $28K. Rebate and discounting on an '03 brings that total down around $25K, but dealers aren't aggressively going out and locating "last year's" models. Then again, maybe it's just my local dealer (Manfredi Toyoya, Staten Island).... Hate to have to go to Brooklyn or New Jersey - Olds was bought in Jersey and they wouldn't send their tag guy to New York to take care of the paperwork for us.
It all boils down now to when the settlement payment is received. We were hoping it was going to be this week so we could take care of the whole business this weekend - test drive, choose, pick out the one we want and write the check. Now it may not be until next week or the week after.
I thank everyone for their opinions, observations and comments. Believe it or not, I only received TWO replies on the Saturn L board, of course both telling me to get the Saturn, but offering no comparisons, unlike here.
Deke
~alpha
How do you understand the "improved performance" if using 91 or higher octane gas? Thanks!
How I understand the fuel thing in relation to Camrys-If you purchased a 4 cylinder Camry, you are fine on regular fuel, and no performance increases are expected by using higher octane. If you purchased a V6, you are fine on regular fuel, but acceleration may be more responsive and/or fuel consumption better with higher grade octane.
~alpha
slov- I disagree with you. But hey, thats what these boards are for. I remember being told by someone in the maintenence boards that automakers use a specially formulated break in oil out of factory, and that it should not be changed earlier than indicated.
We did oil changes/maintenance every 5k for the first 30K miles, and now go every 3750.
~alpha
~alpha
Thanks in Advance
Pat
If your current unit doesn't have JBL on the front, that means you current unit has an amplifier built in and you'll need to acquire an external amplifier if you'd like to upgrade to JBL premium sound. They do not make Toyota in dash CD changers with built in amplifier, they are all internal.
When you look for a Toyota amplifier, it doesn't matter if it is JBL or basic stock, as long as the amplifier or the amplifier's jumper harness has a 20-pin connector on the end you're in business.
Anymore questions please ask me I'd love to put more of my installation experience I acquired over the years to use.
CA may be different, but that is how it works in most places.
you must paid tax to state where the vehicle is registered, doesn't matter where you buy it in U.S.
on the other hand, "USE TAX", where if you bought goods from another state, you suppose to report the tax, but not many people does it, and got away with it,
i think there might be one exception, the tiny state DE do not have sales tax.