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Fast forward to 2001, when BMW introduced the xi versions of the 3-series sedans for only $1750 more than the cost of comparable RWD models. Recognizing that the AWD premium was now only 5%, more or less (more if you were looking at a stripped 325, less if you wanted a loaded 330), buyers stormed BMW stores.
We're considering an '06 Lexus GS 300 as a replacement for my wife's '99 ES 300. Given that the AWD premium is only 4.5% (44,850 for AWD vs. 42,900 for RWD), we'll almost certainly pony up the extra dollars. But if the premium were 20%, as it was for BMW 15 years ago, I'd probably argue in favor of RWD + a set of 4 good snow tires.
From that miserable fight I have to get into with every breakdown I then start to investigate what the heck I am dealing with and get to a site such as this. I have no reason whatsoever to badmouth Mercedes except that my 2004 E320 has been a $54,000 piece of junk.
I too know many satisfied Mercedes owners. I live in the part of the country with the highest saturation of Mercedes in the U.S. That still has nothing to do with the quality that is catching up to them.
The point you miss is the growing number of complaints and the statistically significant decline in their ratings from what I guess are generally accepted ratings groups.
I do not even mind that I have problems since it was my choice to buy a "new platform" car in the first year. It is the disgusting attitude by Mercedes USA, the Massapequa NY dealer, and the Mercedes Corporate Sales Manager... all who obviously do not care about a severe customer problem with their car quality that has convinced me that another experience like this is not for me.
I don't have a clue yet as to what my next car will be in a couple more months but I do know what it will not be. I would love to trade in my lease for an SLK after a great experience with my E320 as they look nice and I would like a new toy again. It would be cheaper since Mercedes would give me a discount for being "loyal". It would be cheaper because I would not be charged for excess mileage. It would be easier to get the "dings" covered in the lease turn in to Mercedes. I have no axe to grind BUT I will not be so dumb as to go through dealing with these attitudes for the next three years again.
Mercedes obviously doesn't need me or care if I am a customer .I will oblige them in their desire to get rid of me.
OK, even if I am wrong and they would put Mercedes on a list of "top ten" cars at some number above 6, I do think that is solely because they think that Mercedes are "out of touch" with the market. Now the new ML and some others may rapidly turn this around -- unless the quality issues (there are no secrets) keep them below "bronze."
I have no bad Mercedes experiences to relate -- my recent spate of test drives did include Mercedes and I was impressed with the "C" class (C320) very much. Of course back to back drives of the A4 3.2, the BMW 330xi and the C320 4Matic made me able to comment that these three cars come from "the same country."
Mercedes is, IMO, better looking than BMW -- but does not often get mentioned in the same breath as BMW (even Audi at least gets an honorable mention when German car lust is the subject du jour.)
The horrible tale told by merdedesstinks certainly doesn't help my positive outlook on Mercedes. But, frankly, it probably would not make me stay away, if there were a Mercedes that I was interested in.
Listen, I'm still new to all of this -- my M35X has not yet come in, my wife's X3 is 4 or 5 days old and I'm still wondering if I will regret getting the M35X (because I have never thought the Japanese car companies were passionate about building driver's cars -- and with only test drives under my belt at this point, the leap of faith I took in ordering an Infiniti was largely due to edmunds posters and the positive reviews of the car.)
Mercedes is "off the top 3 list" of the folks I know, for the time being.
Your milage may differ.
Of course you know people who have had great success with recent models. When studies indicate that 30 percent of the people who purchased the '01 C-Class experienced significant electrical problems in their first year of ownership, that means 70 percent did not. My simple math would determine that slightly more than 2 out of every 3 people would say that they've had no problems.
The important question to ask, I believe, is whether a company such as Mercedes should be proud to have produced a model that had a THIRTY PERCENT rate of significant problems in its first year. If you think about it as a consumer do you really think problem rates that high are acceptable?
I've used the C-Class as an example but the problems run across the entire line of products Mercedes is producing. If you doubt it, look at the recent releases of the '03 E-Class and '03 SL-Class.
This again? I've said this before. Japan can and does build some REALLY hot performance cars. But because of various reasons through out the years (emmisions, the cost of adapting for left-hand drive, etc) they've generally always decided to not bring them here, and thus most of America has never heard of them. Thanks largely to Gran Turismo and a really gutsy move by Subaru, that finally is changing. Still, much like how BMW doesnt offer the M3 CSL in this market, Japan still keeps its best stuff at home.
Examples, Honda's NSX Type-R, Nissan's Skyline GT-R V-Spec II Nur, Honda's S2000 Type V (which actually introduced an "active steering" system back in 2000 called "variable gear-ratio steering" or VGS. According to Honda, theirs was the first application of its kind). While we have the WRX STi and EVO MR, Japan has dozens of much hotter versions that have never made our shores. The same goes for the MX-5 Miata, RX-7, and RX-8. Other than the Supra and a few Celicas here and there, Toyota generally doesnt play in the same league when it comes to drivers cars as Honda, Nissan, Mazda and Subaru (obviously), but Toyota will actually be the first to really take on M3, C55, and RS4 with an IS500 rumored to have somewhere around 400hp. The car does exist and has been caught testing. I dont expect anything in this league from Acura, but I think Infiniti will try and come up with something to counter the IS500, and Germany had better watch out when they do.
By the way, I was just listing regular production cars. If you live in Japan and those models arent good enough, there are special Nismo, Spoon, and Blitz versions of most of them that take things to a new level of crazy. The Blitz Skyline GT-R puts out 850hp @ 9300rpm and 709ft.lbs @ 7500rpm. 0-60 comes in 3 seconds, and its top speed is 213mph.
And probably never will due to emissions regulations. If it were easy there would be a plethora of 2 or 2.5 liter turbo engines. All ponying up 400+ hp.
Most of those models you mention that aren't sold here really don't have anything to do with the luxury scene, they're just extensions of the tuner movement already present, except for the NSX which is dead. One the AMG/M/RS level that Japanese are just flat. Sure they have a lot of reach for the sky screamers, but they're hardly in the luxury class.
Do you think the next Skyline will be badged as an Infiniti or Nissan?
M
Actually, C&D did a mixed comparison which included both 6's and 8's. They set a price cap of $55K. So they ended up with five 8's (A6, M, GS, STS and Jag S-type, and three 6's (530, RL and E350).
The price cap may have been a little arbitrary. As is usual with this sort of test, the cars were not all comparably equipped, and the base (no options) GS 430 came in a few dollars more expensive than the price cap. However, the point remains that Mercedes and BMW are more expensive than the other cars in this category -- hence the 6's.
FWD does have packaging advantages. However, there is a limit to how much power it can handle gracefully. (The TL may be right about at that limit.) And, FWD cars are going to be nose heavy and they are going to understeer.
For years, I drove larger RWD cars (mostly BMW's) and smaller, less powerful FWD cars.
I switched to AWD when I moved to a four season climate. I would never go back. We still have a FWD car (a '98 Passat 1.8T 5 speed) which lives in Southern CA. In the sunshine it is fine. However when it rains in So. Cal, the oil build-up makes the roads turn to Crisco. Since we will have driven an AWD car in from New Mexico, we can usually avoid driving the Passat in the rain. If we have to drive it in the wet, we drive on tip toes.
The weight penalty for AWD is greater for a FWD car than a RWD car. But for most cars it generally runs under 300 lbs, sometimes as low as 200 lbs.
My experience is that FWD/AWD cars which engage the rear wheels only after the fronts start to slip do not cope with sudden changes in traction (like hitting an ice patch or some standing water) as well as the full-time AWD cars. I worry about this with the RL. The RL is really a nose-heavy FWD car with a complicated AWD system added to cope with the power and to mitigate some of the FWD understeer. In its comparison test, Automobile Magazine said that the RL had stability problems with icy patches.
RL aside, what we are really talking about here is: now that virtually all the RWD manufacturers in this segment offer the option of AWD on their 6 cyl models, should you spend the extra $2000 and buy the AWD?
Unless I lived in the desert southwest, my answer would be "yes".
M35
RL
530
A6
They did not include the GS. Guess it was not available in time.
The '98 GS was definitely a competent car, but it lacked, and unfortunately still does lack, that extra something special. The fact that Infiniti got the M35\45 so right after they screwed up so badly with the original Gloria derived M45 is astounding. The 5 and E have been around for how long now? If I were a German auto exec I would definitely have a very close eye on the rearview mirror for Infiniti.
With the next GT-R, everything I've read says our version will have an Infiniti badge on it. While it wont cost nearly as much as the NSX, it should still come in a good $15K or so more than the next most expensive Nissan, and I dont think GT-R owners would want to wait in line for service behind a ratty old Sentra. It would also allow them to compete with the 645Ci, which a Nissan badged version really couldnt do.
About the IS500, check this out http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~savvus/IS500.jpg
Whaddya think, G45 (coupe)? Or an all new model?
Since I have never been in the market for a sporty convertible, didn't BMW put the M3 engine in the Z3? I heard that the Z3 with the larger engines got a little(!) skittish.
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A G35 convertible (and possibly even a wagon) are in the works.
Without boring you with gory details of my miserable experience with the service technicians and manager at the Mercedes of South Orlando, suffice it to say that I too, will not buy a Mercedes for the foreseeable future. I will also discourage anyone I know from buying a Mercedes.
When I called the Mercedes headquarters about my experience, their response was "unfortunately each dealership is independently owned and operated" and that they would input the issue in "their records". From my experience owning 3 BMW's, there is absolutely no comparison between the two companies' customer service. BMW USA holds their dealership accountable for maintaining the corporate reputation.
Bottom line: Mercedes is company that no longer values its reputation or its customers' satisfaction.
On the way to the shop, I walked by a gorgeous black, 2006 Lexus 2006 GS 430.
I was really impressed as to how they have created a definitive style for this car, sharply featured lines, distinctive design ... no compromise everywhere, "camels are horses designed by a committee" here. The GS430 is unique, beautifully styled, and of course, reeks of being Lexus bullet-proof.
Next on the way back after my appointment, I came across the first Infiniti M35x that I had seen. It didn't take me with quite the presence of the GS but by leaning over to look at the interior, I was struck by what a wonderful job they have done making the interior such a powerful visual part of being near the vehicle - none of bland blackness one sees in the BMW's or JCWhitney gee-gaw look in Mercedes. This is one sophisticated car that conveys it's stature without being geeky or tacky.
Just my two cents.
GB
Ok, gotcha.
I don't think Lexus will go for AMG/Motorsport directly I think they'll do it with somewhat less powerful hybrids. The IS500 sounds like a monster if produced.
M
Since we have been buying almost nothing but Audis since 1977 -- and from the same dealer, same salesrep all along (although the dealer sold out to a "corporation" a couple of years ago) -- and since my wife recently bought a BMW X3 from a "owned by a person" dealership AND since I have now frequented two Infiniti dealerships, I do note a difference in both the dealerships and the customers at the German and Japanese dealerships.
First the epitome of passion -- from the sales reps, service and parts reps and customers -- the BMW store. These folks all drank the Kool-aid. Yet, they aren't automatons. Somehow, even the parts guy (in his white lab coat with the BMW blue and white logo) seems "really into" BMWs, really into cars -- really into making certain that the phone cradle we are ordering is the exact right one for the car. Then the service advisor who takes time to introduce us to the other services advisors, "just in case, I'm not here next Saturday when you come in," seems so keen to offer us a loaner car for a 1/2 hour appointment -- "if you change your mind and need to have a car to use to go shopping, please just let me know, we've got plenty. . .would you like a cup of Starbuck's?" Now this is amazing, for the next guy we meet is the "wash tech" -- his job on Saturday's is to wash and vacuum your car (for free, for life) and he takes such pride in asking us to inspect the car after he finishes, you almost feel guilty when he refuses your tip.
At the Audi store, under new "corporate" ownership, the story -- compared with the BMW experience -- is muted somewhat. Still eager to please but more polite, more standoffish -- somewhat more "restrained." Almost as if they had a little bit of the iRobot syndrom. The cannot violate the three laws of the treatment of Audi customers after all. The differences, in my opinion, are between a "dealer group" and a dealer. The OWNER of the BMW store calls himself "the Service Manager" and can be seen in his white lab coat checking in customers from time to time even though he is now a Munich regular speaker at the factory in Bavaria.
At the Audi store there is no sight of anyone who actually owns the place, just "managers" and "supervisors" (it makes me wonder if anyone there can order take out pizza without permission). But, still, at the Audi store the employees and customers are all abuzz about the new A6 with the full-on ground effects package and the new A8L with the $7,000 custom wheel package and fully tinted windows looking like a modern Batmobile on the showroom floor.
At the two Infiniti dealers, the experience is even more sanitized and less emotional than at the "corporate-like" Audi store. Walk in and the handsome woman behind the semi-cirular bent-wood desk greets you, "welcome to Infiniti, would you care for some bottled water?" More Kool-aid drinkers, for sure -- but this time it is completely proper, darn near sterile. The look is ultra modern, pretty, high tech, devoid of warmth (yet not cold), distant -- almost museum like. The talk is of "the deal" -- some of the cars on the showroom floor even have the "deal" painted on the windshield "G35 with Premium Package $499 down, $499 month, 42 months/12,000 miles" and so forth. The sales people are in suits and one wears a cowboy hat. The German dealership reps looked like they were ready for a round of golf at the nearest private club, in contrast. The Inifiniti reps want to get right to business -- "wanna test drive one of these?" I happened to be standing next to a huge SUV like thing (not the FX) and the salesman didn't even stop to ask what I was interested in. "Let's get down to dickerin'" was the next thing I expected to hear. At Infiniti dealership #2, the greeter was there, also asking about my thirst and the reps wore dress shirts with open collars and blazers (not uniforms, not Infiniti issue, but blazers or sport coats). Again the talk was about the process "the test drive" or "what color would you like to see this in."
I dunno, the experience is different -- I most prefer the BMW experience and least the Infiniti. But perhaps this is more of a function of ownership. The Audi and Infiniti dealerships were "corporate" owned, the BMW store was owned by a guy named "Tom" -- the differences may be totally attributable to this.
I can't say the same about the customers though -- the customers at the Audi and BMW dealerships were "into cars." As I peered into the last remaining 2005 S4 on the showroom floor someone came up to me and struck up a conversation about his (older) S4 and I shared my 1995 S6 experience with him and, well, "we had a moment." Much the same thing at the BMW store -- strangers asked if they could see my wife's X3 becuase they were interested in the Terracotta interior.
I fully expect that the G35 coupe and the M's will (already are) attracting customers who are "into cars" -- at this point, however, the Infiniti showrooms seem to only have folks who are "into cars" in the minority. Of course this is not to claim that one type is superior to the other type -- it is simply meant to indicate my preference and my observations. Your BMW dealership may be sterile and your Infiniti dealership may be full of passionate car people.
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Even the Infiniti guys seemed to have a deeper enthusiasm once I didn't immediately start talking price. I actually took two DVD-Audio discs with me to the Infiniti dealer and the salesperson I spoke with actually got in the car with my wife and me and listened to my DVD's and seemed to almost relax and chat about the sound system and the benefits of the M35X -- he also offered that he used to be a BMW salesperson. He seemed not at all in a hurry to return to his post -- and this was the "backup" sales person, since I had already ordered the car from his colleague "the Internet Sales Manager" (whom I have never even met face to face.)
Don't take my observations as any indictment against Japanese LPS sales people -- indeed, I like the sentiment of matching the salesperson and the "like-minded" buyer. I'll bet there are people who would hate our BMW sales rep since she seems to just "gush" about the products she represents (she used to be an Infiniti salesperson, in fact she drives a G35) without dissing any other products. She is the person who is just goo-goo ga-ga about Bimmers.
Just finding the differences "fascinating."
Must be off to the new BMW orientation soiree tonight -- free food.
#32nd worst out of 35 for Mercedes. Three more spots to plummet and they can "grab the magic ring".
The article should be posted on the desk of every person in that company to see if maybe they could get anybody to care and to treat a customer right.
The Mercedes dealership didn't give me a positive feeling - arrogance reigned, product knowledge was not impressive and when I discussed "dealing" the salesman looked at me as if I was a chimp reciting Shakespeare. I had a negative opinion before I drove the car.
The Audi dealership was much more knowledgeable but there was a slight sense of "take it or leave it"
The BMW dealership represented THE best car-buying experience I've ever had (much to my surprise). A "car person" sales lady who drove me to an empty parking lot to put the car through its paces as a demonstration before my test drive (man, could she drive!). They were willing to deal and gave me fair value for my trade first attempt. No silly stuff at all.
I owned a Passat at the time and mentioned my experience on the VW board. The responses from others with similar stories suggested that the issues are more corporate than dealer-specific. This seems to confirm many of the previous posts on this board.
Infiniti projected they would sell 24,000 (2,000 per month) Ms per year.
So far both are exceeding their projections. If you follow my posts in the Infiniti M forum then you know that I think Infiniti could sell more Ms if they shipped some more over - inventories are lean. If you are looking for a particular color and options you are likely waiting for (or ordering) the car. Don't know about Lexus' inventory.
Because they've never really had to deal. Back in the good ole days some dealers had a preset portion of what was a much larger markup that they would offer as a discount. If you didn't like it you could leave because they had no problems selling their inventories. Until about five years ago, most dealership's allocations were far smaller than what they could have sold. They will deal now but don't expect the normal haggling process you find with other makes.
Although it always seemed as if you were being "held up" by their pricing, they actually protected their customers to a degree because no heavily discounted cars were getting out to cause fallout on the resale side. Combined with longish product cycles Mercedes was always a resale leader.
Not terribly surprising Mercedesstinks.
While Mercedes reputation for quality has deservedly taken a tremendous hit I believe that most people still perceive it to be a very prestigious brand. I would venture to guess that in random surveys taken today the most frequently mentioned brand would still be Mercedes if asked "name a prestigious luxury automobile". The interesting angle would be to see what would happen if you surveyed only those who were able to afford the cars.
There was a day Mercedesstinks where they were not only considered prestigious but were actually great cars too.
M
Coming up with (and selling) a 3 series wannabe had to be a foreign concept to a company that is all about luxury and customer satisfaction. (Remember the Lexus commercial where the car is negotiating a curvy two lane road while the narrator says something about the nice quiet ride, and if you want to feel the road...and the car stops, the door opens, and the driver's hand reaches down to touch the pavement?)
The IS300 really wasnt even a 3 series wannable, I think thats what the new 250 and 350 are. The original was an extry sports sedan with a luxury badge on it, but there was really very little in the way of luxury about it. Creature comforts were no where close to what was in a 330i, A4 2.8, or C320 sport. Lexus wanted to create the "anti-Lexus" with the IS300, and they did, but thats not what they need to succeed. You want to keep people coming back to your brand as they move up the corporate ladder and want bigger cars. Most of the IS300 owners on Edmunds cant stand anything else the company makes, so they would most likely move on to a 5 series once they out grow the IS. The new IS at least looks the part of a proper Lexus, but it remains to be seen if the actual driving will be a letdown like the GS.
Does anyone care to enlighten me on what that commercial was? The only GS commercial I remember is the one with the guy driving down the road and they are showing an Xray type image of his body, and he hits the gas and his eyes fall back against his brain. That one was pretty clever. :shades:
By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks!
Only later was it adopted as the title of the Bradbury book.