Experience with e-mail only negotiations?

audia8q

100 over....!!!! wow, your a crook.

my sister in-laws brothers cousin has a friend who will sell the car for $500 under....haha

Rich

abtseller

I think its time to start looking for another line of work.

Ed

mackabee

Got a phone call yesterday from a gentleman wanting to buy a 2003 Corolla Ce spd base, no options. Call came in to the receptionist and she tells the GSM "he wants to speak to the fleet manager" which we don't have one at our store. He looks at me and asks me to take the call. So I put on my "fleet manager" hat and take the call. I introduce myself and ask how many units he wants to buy. "Just one, If I fax you what I want will you reply?" he asks. "Sure, here's our fax number: xxx-xxxx attn: Mackabee." Fax comes in today, in the usual format all my brothers and sisters in arms have been receiving lately; I'll paraphrase "I am prepared to make a cash purchase of a 2003 Corolla CE, I am contacting several Toyota dealers with the same offer and will buy from whomever accepts first. (At least this prospect was not contacting every Toyota dealer in the US) I have not contacted any salesperson at your dealership. Here's the specs:
Model no, equipment invoice msrp
and so on. Has anybody looked at Edmunds' TMV on a Corolla lately? He list three color choices, don't need mats, mop & glo, or any other add-ons. He offers $500 over invoice and is "aware" that an "additional profit" of $401 in dealer holdback (3% of MSRP, excluding dest)(his words) then lists contact info. I already knew this but just to clarify my thinking I get on the TDN (dealer daily) and do a search of 5 states. There are 4 (four) 5spd Corollas with power locks and all weather guard package, and only one in the color choice he gave me at a dealership we don't trade with. I call him back and give him the info and counter-offer. Better yet, I tell him I have 2 Corolla automatics in his first color choice and will GLADLY sell him one for $500.00 over invoice. As any Toyota dealer will tell you, the spread from invoice to MSRP on the new CE's is pitifull! Toyota has produced the instant mini-deal for us, so I could care less if I sell one at sticker or anywhere in between! He tells me he will pass the info to his wife and will get back to me. An hour later another fax comes in with the same request for the original vehicle which I had told him does not exist and he writes on the bottom of the page; "This is the price that gets me into your office first thing tomorrow morning!" So I call him back and leave a message with the secretary, he calls back and I say to him "We appreciate your offer, but I'm afraid we can't meet your requirements at this time." there is complete silence on the line. "Hello, Hello," I say. "ok, I thank you for your time and effort." click. Supply and Demand, Supply and Demand.

: )

Mackabee

steine13

you bum, that's all very nice, & I like to read you stories & all BUT YOU STILL OWE US THE REST OF THE CLIFF HANGER FROM LAST MONTH!!!!
argghhhh...

Is it any wonder that I drink?

Peace,
-Mathias
East Lansing, MI

abtseller

looks like they're training a whole new round of idiots out there for us to play with, eh?

I think the Corolla is gonna be a hot ticket when the pipeline opens up. All of ours are sold for the next couple of months.

I was real impressed at the ride-n-drive

Ed

mackabee

Sorry, I owe you guys an apology. I been busier than a one armed paper hanger. We have cash blast 2002 going on and I'm trying to get as many points as I can so I can party with my friends up in Atlantic City in September. Plus with the Olympics and March Madness the "Backdoor buyer" episodes got pre-empted. I will migrate to the "inconsiderate buyers" thread shortly. I have some new episodes coming soon!

: )

Mackabee

steine13

Well, it's Easter, so tell you what: We'll do it the Catholic way. All is forgiven, you'll get a fresh start...
...Your penance will be to finish the cliff hangers over in "Inconsiderate Buyers"...ad majorem dei gloream...

-Mathias

im_brentwood

Yeahup!

Montclair Jaguar. I havent worked there in a loooong time.

Bill

dmgstewart

It appears that most of the posts here are from dealers, so I hope you don't mind the view from the "other" side

Basically, while I realise you feel that a lot of time and effort can be wasted on these fax/email approaches, they really can work, and it can be way more efficient for both sides.

Before I get down to negotiations, I need to get a sense of what the "real" market is like for a car (real world availability and price) - a reality check if you like. For that, nothing beats getting info. via fax/email. It's efficient for both sides, I think. There's no sense in me wasting 3-4 sales people's time, coming into a dealership to try and get pricing/availability info. With a short email/fax, I can get that info. from the dealers in a few minutes of their time.

So far, I've had good success with that - I usually approach 4-5 (max) dealers, and get a range of responses. I almost get 100% response (which is great) and get a classic spread: usually one that seems too high, one quite low, and the other 2 or 3 in the middle, representing what I gather other customers are getting (from various forums, word of mouth, etc).

Armed with that, I can then determine if the low price is real, and if so, quickly canvass the others to see if they want to beat it, and quickly close the deal.

Another benefit to me is that it is an efficient way of canvassing the market outside of my home town. It's not huge, so in some cases, certain dealers have monopolies, or only 1 other dealer as a competitor. As a result, they can charge a premium (which is fine - supply and demand, after all). Using email/fax to a much larger market not too far off gets me insight on what those dealers can offer. I can then take that (usually lower pricing) and see if the local dealers are interested. If they're not, no problem - off I go to buy the car elsewhere.

Anyways, apologies for the long winded ramble. I realise some customers can make ludicrous demands, but in other situations, I think it can be an efficient process, that spares both a customer and a dealer's time and effort.

Cheers,

Mike

abtseller

are potentially missing out from an experience at a good dealership because the majority of blast faxes end up in the circular file. I still haven't had a reply from the lady I priced a Camry to last week, I'm hurt.



Ed

frankie7

In your postings # 24 & 28 you mentioned a dealer in Newark. Toyota Corp. can't find a dealer in Newark. Can you help?

hobo11

I was wondering if anyone has purchased a car exclusively using e-mail or fax from a dealer (and not an on-line website)?

It seems that you could avoid a lot of the tricks and attempts to wear you down in negotiotions. Most important, you could have time to verify the dealers claims when he or she gives you prices.

What do you think?

audia8q

Well here is my two cents....

If I'm spending the kind of money it takes to buy a car, boat, airplane, real estate etc....I want to deal with a real live person, face to face. There is something about spending $20K plus or more through the mail that bothers me...

dbgindy

On my most recent purchase in April I did the vast majority of my deal via email & phone. That cut down on my in person time at the dealership by around 75%. I finalized at the dealership and it was a great experience.
audia is also correct (listen to him for he knows what he's talking about:-) that some face to face is good. If you can knock out the majority of issues via email and then go in to close the deal and it's the same as you agreed to via phone,email and /or fax it's a great way to shop.

IMHO anyway. :-)

Duncan

audia8q

let me add....getting things started via email and the telephone is fine and can make things easy...but like dbgindy's experience, he started with the email/phone but finalized things face to face...

rivertown

I did my last buy by net, contacting 15-20 dealers for quotes through their websites (located through the manufacturer's site) and then completing the final negotiation by phone and during the paper signing - pick up session. Just as you figure, it simplified the negotiations and helped clarify the gaminess. The other two advantages were that I could shop out of town dealers and that I got a taste of the dealerships' sales orientations w/o investing much time. It's the way to go, IMO.

You might wanna read through this thread:
Part One: Internet vs. Traditional Car Buying - READ ONLY
558 messages, Last post on Aug 14, 2003 at 11:15 AM
Created by Car_man in the Smart Shopper Message Board.

hobo11

Thanks for all the replies.

I think I will try this at least initially. The reason I asked is that I am not too enthuisastic about the on-line car websites that then send you to a dealer, as they were always a few hundred above invoice for the car I purchased.

Going into the dealer, eventually I was able to get a couple hundred below invoice. However, it was an aggravating experience, with me having to walk out on one occassion. My wife, too, did not enjoy the back-and-forth negotiation.

So, initially at least, it seems to me to be a great combination, where you can avoid the markup of the websites like carsdirect, autobytel, etc. but still have more control over the transaction, being able to verfiy prices, take more time to think about it, etc. (I was still amazed that even today some of the salespeople were very aggressive. This was an instant turn off and I walked out.)

Thanks again.

rivertown

Nope, I'm not bragging, LOL. Just pointing out how easy it is to participate in the competitive market as a buyer using the net. It's a whole different world these days, to which some dealerships are adapting beautifully.
FWIW, a third to a half of the dealerships dealt me straight, very competitive quotes while 2/3rds to a half eliminated themselves with no or slow responses, 'tude, or sales hooey. DELETE buttons are great.

I don't get the 'doorsteps' comment.

landru2

please know exactly what you want before starting an email correspondence. Either look at the manufacturers site or the dealer's site first.

I used to hate getting emails like this:
cust: I would like a quote on a Mustang GT in red.
me:Any other options or equipment?
cust: I'm not sure, just tell me about everything you have.

At this point I would usually suggest they come down and look at our selection. If they didn't want to - "delete." And move onto the next one:

"I would like a quote on a 2003 Mustang GT in Lazer red with 5spd and audiophile sound system. I saw one like this in your on-line inventory, stock #3mu8765.

Now, this person I can work with.

isellhondas

I don't understand.

"they were always a few hundred dollars over invoice"

What, exactly do you expect?

Dealers like any merchant need to make a profit in order to stay in business.

You say you and your wife do not enjoy the process yet you seem determined to buy a car below invoice?

Don't mean to be picking on you here...I'm not.

From my vantage point I see this quite often. I will have a customer tell me they hate going back and forth yet they demand bottom dollar.

Also, it's the market that determines pricing. cars that are sold below invoice are sold that way for a reason.

rivertown

Landru - that sort of vague quote request would drive me nuts and read 'shopper or hound dog, not buyer' to me. So, a specific request (making it clear when something like color made no difference) worked well for me. Even so, some replies had a 'need more info' theme, to which I replied when it seemed sincere or blew off when it seemed like sales hooey.

Dunno about the 'market pricing' thing. I got quotes that ranged from sticker with a token discount to invoice - $2.8K. Maybe, though, some of the salesguys just didn't have their fingers on the market (or hoped I didn't?), LOL.

asafonov

When I bought an 03 Accord early this year, I did all negotiations by email - using Edmunds "dealer quote" forms, in fact. Now this is the first new car I bought, so I cannot honestly say that my experience would have been better (or price lower), had I negotiated in person. Certainly the process was faster! Some experiences/tips:

- Obviously seconding landru's suggestion to "know what you want": something like, 03 Accord LX auto, no side airbags, silver, VIN number starts with J. No trade-in. Preapproved with FCU XYZ. Thankfully, Honda trim levels and options make this simpler.

- This weeds out dealers with attitutde. There may be little correlation between salerperson and service attitude and helpfulness, but, without other indications, I'd rather go with the dealer who is upfront, honest and responsive.

- I used a "real" email, rather than a free one provided by Yahoo, MSN et al. I would assume that maybe one is taken a bit more seriously when coming from a university or a company (not a 12 yo with lots of idle time).

- I specified contact information in my requests: name, work phone, cell phone, BUT requested to keep the negotiation to email until the deal is reached.

- Wrote what my time frame for purchasing was.

- Explained in my price request that I would not shop one dealer's price against the other. And did not - that's the beauty of online negotiations.

YMMV, caveat emptor, etc.

isellhondas

" I would not shop one dealer's price against the other"

How many times do we hear this one?

yaman

I initiated the enquiry over the net.In two of the transactions finalized the price in a face to face.In the last one dealer offered $ 300 over invoice in response to my email and that settled the deal immediately.

asafonov

isell,

I am not sure I understand your irony, if you indeed express it. I can see how shopping one dealer's price against the other can happen if you actually travel in person from dealership to dealership. When requesting quotes on-line, you see right away what the lowest quote is, in addition to dealerperson's "tone" and attitude. You can counter the offer while keeping in mind the prices you got - obviously you cannot block a part of your brain and forget what the other dealers have offered you. But you don't have to write, ABC will take $XYZ, can you match it?

In my case, out of 5 Honda dealerships in the area, two did not respond at all to my offer, and out of the remaining three, it was pretty clear which ones were a bit condescending ("we will sell it to for $XYZ.PQ (about invoice + $500), but we are doing you a really, really big favour, price good for today only, and you better count your blessings"), and which one was not. So it was almost a choice of one out of one just based on factors other than price.

Overall, I think you raise an interesting point. When there are truely several reasonable (counter)offers from dealerships, how does one avoid shopping price? Should one? Is there a form of it that is financially and ethically acceptable to both the dealers and the buyers?

landru2

The rarity comes from the fact that you actually made an offer by email. I bet less than 1/10 of 1% of emailers do that. Pretty much everyone just asks, "Send me a quote on an ABC GT."

bobst

We have bought cars over the phone, so you should be able to buy them over the internet just as easily.

In 1997, we offered 17300 OTD for a Honda Accord, but they did not accept. I later called back and offered 17400, but they didn't get back to me. I called another dealer with the same offer, they accepted, so we went there and got the car for that amount.

In 1995 we could not reach an acceptable price with a dealer for an Accord. Later we called and said we would give them our 1987 Taurus and 13750, they agreed, so we did it.

Working over the phone or the internet should be OK as long as you make a definite offer.

chief29

My wife bought her truck in '01 by E-mailing the local dealers after visiting the lots. She told them no phone calls. One called and was dropped from the negotiations.
I bought my Yukon in '02 using E-mail until we agreed on a price, then I went in and signed the sales agreement. They washed the truck and filled the gas tank while I went to the bank to get a check.
This is easier if you don't have a trade in and are paying cash.
I wouldn't do it any other way.

hobo11

QUOTING isellhondas:

I don't understand.

"they were always a few hundred dollars over invoice"

What, exactly do you expect?

Dealers like any merchant need to make a profit in order to stay in business.

You say you and your wife do not enjoy the process yet you seem determined to buy a car below invoice?

Don't mean to be picking on you here...I'm not.

From my vantage point I see this quite often. I will have a customer tell me they hate going back and forth yet they demand bottom dollar.

Also, it's the market that determines pricing. cars that are sold below invoice are sold that way for a reason.

HOBO 1 Responding to above: My simple point was that I was able to save more money going straight to the dealer than using the online car services (autobytel, carsdirect, et al.). Even better, if I used an e-mail only method, I could still obtain a near or below invoice pricing for your average car and not have to sit with salesperson for 5 hours.

Additionally, if I were to use this method, I would, of course, be a serious customer and would specify the exact car that I wanted--having already test drove one and picked my options. I think this would be easier for both the dealer and the customer. Over e-mail, all the small talk is cut down to a minimum and there is no needless banter or gamesmanship.

It is simply more efficient for all involved--though I would guess that dealers would not like it as pressure/sales techniques are harder to exert on the customer and billing and financing tricks could be checked by the customer before going in.

hobo11

After reading my post above, maybe I sound a little cynical. I don't mind dealers making a profit; I just want to use my market power to keep their profit to a reasonable minimum and not waste my time trying to get a true market price. Thanks.

landru2

That sounds like a reasonable goal.

I would like to comment on the part where you said you have already test-driven and picked options before starting the email process. I'm sure you wouldn't deliberately try to waste a salesman's time but that's what you'll be doing if you are visiting a dealership, talking to a salesman, going for a test drive, and then dealing with someone else by email to make the purchase. If you end up buying through an internet manager, the original salesperson may get nothing for the time spent with you.

My advice would be to contact the internet manager to arrange a test dive, etc. and then communicate via email with him/her about the price.

rivertown

you can include the test drive guy's best price in the competition as you compare quotes. Unless he says differently, though, you may have to assume he wants sticker.

masspector

"I just want to use my market power to keep their profit to a reasonable minimum and not waste my time trying to get a true market price."

Oh boy, you've opened a can of worms now.

isellhondas

That I'm going to stay out of. This same can has been opened many times before.

I guess it's the "reasonable minimum" part that's confusing. The buyer's expectations of what is "reasonable" may not equal reality.

Below invoice is hardly "reasonable" but that is what some buyers expect.

You guys have at it...

asafonov

Landru,

I am surprised that, in your statistics, such a small percentage of buyers makes an offer first. I did debate whether I should make an offer myself first, or ask for a quote. I have seen many times on this board that the party that names the first number "loses" the negotiation (i.e., gives away more than would have been the case had the other party volunteered an offer first). Perhaps. I am happy with the price I paid, minimum time spent negotiating (6 emails total not counting the original Edmunds quote forms), and dealer experience during car pick-up.

Back to my question - is there a form of price shopping that is acceptable to dealers and advantageous to buyers? I am not talking about extreme cases when buyers make up numbers, alter quote forms. As I said, I cannot erase the previous quotes I got from memory when receiving new ones. Perhaps bobst's "you-get-one-offer-and-its-your-only-chance-then-I-leave" method is the best one - if only I had the time to go from dealer to dealer... Maybe when I am retired.

k_h_b

The way that I bought my first new car after the help of edmunds and other sites would defintely be an acceptable way to buy from me today. I did my homework before my purchase, 2-3 months of finding the right vehicle, the finding round about what cost was and an acceptable offer to make. When I say acceptable I mean 3-6% above cost. I don't really like to shop when I buy anything, I do my homework first and go get what I want at a fair price. I still remember the figures from what I wanted, 01 Jetta wolfsburg, msrp 21415, I offered 19700 and accepted 20,100. Keep in mind I was prepared to pay closed to 21,000 as it was a limited edition, and I wanted the vehicle now. Their price was well within my range, I had been treated well, I liked the salesperson and it was close to home. Done deal. They made some money, I got the vehicle I wanted at a fair price. Everyone was happy.

My advice, do your homework, find someone you like dealing with, and give yourself a reasonable range to work with based on market conditions.

Good luck

chief29

I agree, do your homework, know what you want, know what you are prepared to pay, and don't be in a hurry to close a deal. E-mail negotiations can be discontinued by either party without any pressure if you can not come to an agreement.
Pay cash or arrange for financing through your credit union, or you will find yourself sitting in that small room, and isn't that what you wanted to avoid by E-mail negotiation.
The only surprise that I got when I went in to sign the sales agreement was a $45 doc fee and a $5 tire fee.

masspector

Good call. I agree. let the new guys duke it out this time.

However, I did have one small question about your post. "Below invoice is hardly "reasonable" but that is what some buyers expect."

Maybe you are tainted by working in a Honda store, but there are many vehicles that will not sell in todays market, even at invoice.

Example, on my 02 QX4, there was a 2K factory to dealer incentive. Almost all of the dealers in my area were including this incentive in their advertised prices. Invoice was 33k, most ads were near 31K. Was it unreasonable of me to go to the dealer and ask for the advertised price, since it was 2K below invoice? This happens on many vehicles where the dealer incentive is not in the advertised price, so to me there are many cases where the true market value of the car is under invoice, and it is not unreasonable to me for the buyer to try to get the car for that below invoice price.

isellhondas

There are a lot of cars that can be bought under invoice. I was assuming no factory to dealer money.

The constant rebate situation has become a nightmare for some manufactures to the point they have this all of the time. The customers now expect and demand this.

Many times the MSRP is inflated thousands of dollars because of this.

It was, in my opinion, dumb corporate short term thinking that caused this.

nortsr1

Two weeks ago I went on the GM site, built the SRX that my wife wanted to purchase,.... they gave the three nearest dealers..received an Email with an internet offer of 1100.00 off MSRP.The second dealer said they would beat same by several hundred dollars. I then e mailed the first dealer to thank him for his offer, but that we had an offer of 1400.00 off MSRP.They immediately e. Mailed me back and said they would match that offer. {They are a closer dealership so we decided to go with them.} I then E mailed the second dealer, told him we would be purchasing from dealer #1 and that I appreciated his offer, but due to the fact that dealer #1 was closer, it made sense to buy from them, but that I really thought he was very fair about the offer he had made.
  We were all set to go to dealer #1 and close the deal when I received an E Mail from the #2 dealer that said they would sell us the exact SRX that we wanted for "INVOICE".
  The following day we went to #2 dealer...I checked all the figures against what Edmunds had posted...and....sure enough we got the SRX for invoice.There was no trade-in, so I know we got the invoice price.
  In all fairness to dealer #1, I sent them an E Mail the next day to thank them for their offer...but... that we had purchased same for invoice.
  I can honestl say that I never expected either dealer to compete against one another,especially on the new SRX...as some dealers even have them above MSRP.
  This was all done thru the internet, except for the phone call to verify the invoice price.

rroyce10

...... Hmmm sounds like you got one heck of a deal .. considering that every dealer between Oakland and Orlando are fighting to get them, and they are getting way over invoice at the auctions .. not only did you get one dealer to sell it at invoice, you got 3, it's kinda amazing that they would lose money when they could have taken them to an auction and made money ... I guess they needed the tax write off.

                      Terry ;-)

masspector

thanks for the reply and I tend to agree with you. Huge rebates are pretty much the norm now. However, IMO it is a reflection of the huge inflation that car prices have from the 80's and 90's. Inflation on most products has far outstripped earnings. IMO cars are about 30% over priced. Rebates take some of that over inflation away, but not all of it. it is crazy that a lot of bread and butter family sedans, with heavy options, are now around or over 30K. That is in the ballpark of alot of buyers yearly income. Of course this is not just for cars. IMO alot of products are way overpriced and are feeling the pinch from the weak economy.

rivertown

Congrats!

The net's a great doorway into the competitive market for buyers, IMO.

nortsr1

I have to agree with you...the dealer wanted to be the first one to sell an SRX in our area???? I found that a hard to believe statement until we signed the papers and it truly was invoice as compared to MSRP.
   I have seen several since then at dealers lots with and added mark-up over MSRP.

hobo11

nortsr1

Terry,
    How do the hard to get SRX' make to the auction if the dealers can't even get a decent supply of them? Where would they come from???

buster6

In 2002 I wanted a Honda S2000. I live in the Phoenix area where the cars were selling 1-3k over sticker price. I was on a waiting list at a local dealer at 1k over sticker. I waited 3 months (the car was supposed to be here in 1 month) December '01 to February '02. I went to the sales manager who I had placed the deposit with (all of this pre edmunds days) asked where my car was, and was finally told that someone else was willing to pay more for the car than I was, and that I could defiantly have the next one due in another month or so. I was very frustrated, and unable to find another car in the area. I turned to ebay auctions. There was a dealer selling new S2000's at sticker. Wanting to negotiate I was bidding on both, at about 1500 under msrp. Both auctions ended and I still had no car. I was then emailed by the dealer and was asked if I was still in the market. I emailed back and said I was, but I really wanted a red car and the auctions were for black cars. He emailed back and said he has had a red on on his lot for a few months, it was the middle of winter and to make him an offer. I offered $250.00 over invoice and had a deal. It went completely smooth through finance and shipping directly from his dealership to my door (1 week start to finish, including the fed x package back and forth for of all the finacing docs). Even with the shipping charges (about $650.00) I saved allot of money.

**After a year of driving and 3500 miles (second car) I was able to sell the car for $500.00 more than I had paid for it (I did loose the money spent onfinancing charges and sales tax), but all in all the best car buying experience I have ever had.

rroyce10

... >> it was the middle of winter and to make him an offer. I offered $250.00 over invoice and had a deal. It went completely smooth<<

          Good job, when you have the patience of a Saint and you don't have to have that "gotta have", then it can work out quit well .. also I noticed the transport was $650, it went to the Phoenix area, and it came from where .?

                      Terry.

hingram

I only use email to determine availability. Negotiating via email is tricky. An unscrupulous dealer (of course there are none) will say anything to get you in the lot so using email to weed them out won't work. You are also passing up a lot of good deals because some dealerships won't negotiate via email.

I realize some people are intimidated by the car buying process but that's a separate issue. Fax and email may work for some but you are better off learning how to say "NO" to a dealer if they can't reach your price. Face-to-face is always better for negotiating. Dealerships are VERY hesitant to let you walk if you are close to their expectations on a car when you are in their building.

buster6

The car came from Fargo N.D.