Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

blueguydotcom

BTW, I know it's very odd. I have no idea how long those lease subsidizers can keep the charade up.

Long time. They make money on the lease and make money when they auction the car off to the dealers. look at the price of CPO cars!

quasiactuary

I knew that he mentioned JD Powers, but didn't catch the MSN part. For one thing, JD Powers ratings/rankings aren't much related to reliability, are they? They are ranking INITIAL QUALITY where initial means 90 days after purchase. When I say/hear reliability I think about much longer term than just within the first 90 days. And when I looked for JD Powers information I saw your link showing 2/5 for initial quality.

I thought he mentioned to look at what owners were saying on yahoo auto. I looked and saw a virtually perfect rating for the X Type wagon...based on 9 owners. The other 4 cars I looked up also had perfect ratings on yahoo autos (based on far more reviews). My take is that those owner reviews aren't worth much if virtually every car is rated perfectly...seems like owners (or dealers) are just going on there to try to make their choice look good. If every car gets a perfect rating there does it really help in seeing the differences between cars?

kcleuk

Also, I like something sporty. I'm 23 and I don't want to be driving an Avalon. haha

shipo

"Also, I like something sporty. I'm 23 and I don't want to be driving an Avalon. haha"

You do? Ummm, does that mean that you like something "Sporty Looking", as in all show and maybe some go too? Sounds like an Acura TL will fit the bill perfectly.

Best Regards,
Shipo

laurasdada

Greetings: Just for the heck of it, a copy/paste from the Caddy XLR thread (my eclectic taste in cars. I'm all over the place...). Not germane to this topic (please forgive me the brief tangent here), but for your S2000-fan review:

"I just bought a used 2004 XLR with 10,000 miles (old rich guy owned it, never drove it much). I have to say it is a great vehicle to drive, much better than my Honda S2000 I traded in. And everybody loves it, I receive lots of positive comments on it. While I will miss my S2000, the XLR has quickly become the favorite vehicle in the family!"

I do so enjoy reading posts from folks who enjoy their cars! No matter the make or model...

ggesq

If your not a pure enthusiast, get a TL. It's fun, reliable, has an aesthetic exterior and interior, sport tuned suspension, all the gadgets one could ask for, fit and finish is acceptable and luxurious all at a reasonable price.

brightness04

It seems to me that ED + high lease residual + low MF make for the best deal: you only pay sales tax on the portion that is being depreciated in that year. Cash purchase of used cars seems to be very expensive considering the CPO premium and maintenance/repair cost.

The only big hitch with leasing new cars one after another is that I live in a state where excise tax is based on MSRP, which is way out of wack with how little these cars are really usually transacted for. A car at $277/mo lease should correspond to a real money market price of $18k or so not $34k! My excise tax bill under current tax code is nearly double what it should be.

blueguydotcom

That sucks. In CA you're taxed on the payment, not the overall cost of the car. And yes, an ED lease on many BMWs is a sick deal. Hard to get into any car that cheaply - certainly cars with 40k stickers.

jtla

Interest is something that exists whether you finance (therefore pay) or have the money in the bank (therefore collect).

Absolutely, and the best of both worlds is lease-to-own. BMW's lease deals on 3-series are so attractive that everyone should lease even if he/she intends to buy. Current money factor with 7 MSD for 328i is 0.00076(0.00125 - 0.00007*7) which is equivalent to an interest rate of 1.8%. Whether you pay cash or finance, an estimated 4% interest rate difference on a $40k car for 3 year would be around $3,800 (not $4,800 because the depreciated portion of car cost has been repaid through lease payment). If you purchase the car at lease-end, it is like you are getting additional $3,800 discount; if you return the car at lease end, not only do you save $3,800 in interest, you also save, say, 7% of sales tax on the residual value -- another $1,700 or so. The cost of the $5,500 potential saving? $625 lease acquisition fee plus approx. $500 "lost interest" of your 7 MSD.

brightness04

Out here in Taxachusetts, we have to pay 5% sales tax on each payment, then every year there is an excise tax of 2.5% of "table value"; the "table value" is 90% of MSRP in the model year, 60% MSRP MY-1 and MY+1, 40% MSRP MY+2, 25% MSRP MY+3 and 10% MSRP MY+4 and thereafter. As you can see, the tax code severely penalize cars that heavily discount from MSRP. It becomes a big deal when between ED and high residual, the consumer is only paying about 13% of MSRP worth of depreciation over two years (little over 6% each year); the excise tax adds as much as 25-35% to the first year's payment because of the inflated MSRP!

On the surface of it 5% + 2.5% is no big deal, not much more than the 7% in CA, but the real difference is that the 5% and 7% are assessed on payments, in other words the total tax base over the two years is only 13% of the car's MSRP (depreciated value, interest is negligible in these subsidized leases), whereas the tax base of the 2.5% excise tax is 150% of MSRP in the same two years.

habitat1

Careful on the lease analysis vs. cash buy analysis. What makes the most economic sense is dependent upon your own personal "money factor" compared to the leasing companies, as well as what they claim the residual value is vs. what you think the depreciation will be. And, of course, what the capitalized cost is compared to the best negotiated cash price.

BMW is known to have aggressive lease terms and I have not done a direct comparison. But my personal money factor is 3.5% (I can margin borrow at 6% and the interest is effectively tax deductable from my other investment earnings). That is not the case for many or most people, but I know of others who took out home equity loans at 5.5%-6.5% that were fully tax deductable interest.

In the case of my 911, I compared the best lease deal I could get to my own "self financed" purchase deal and the difference was enormous - to the tune of $21,000 over 48 months. I am sure the difference would be a closer with a 335i, but i'm willing to bet that for those that can effectively borrow at an after tax rate of under 4%, it still is more expensive to lease than buy. There is no voodoo in leasing economics - you are adding another party to the equation and they need to make money. Unless they can give me funds at under 4%, they will be making it at my expense - even without their little acquisition and dispositon fees.

jtla

While I generally agree with your "cost of fund" concept, I can't seem to get your $277/month payment with zero cap reduction. I think two items were missed in your example: $695 destination charge and $625 lease inception fee (assuming rolled-in). My calculation based on:

- $28,415 ED invoice for base 328i sedan 6MT no option
- $1,000 dealer profit + $625 lease fee
- zero cap cost reduction
- single security deposit
- 2 yr / 12k miles lease
- MF .00125 + 0.0003 for ED
- 73% residual

The payment for the above should be in the neighborhood of $330 before tax ($355 with 7.75% sales tax). March price may have gone up a tick.

blueguydotcom

Unless they can give me funds at under 4%, they will be making it at my expense - even without their little acquisition and dispositon fees.

Agreed.

goodegg

Wow bro.

Lots of number crunching to me. How can you buy ANY car, let alone a ELLPS, when all you do is consider the expense/opportunity cost? A nice/any car is obviously not an investment, but short of giving the wife the boot and finding some young thang to roll around with, these cars provide the kind of pleasure putting a price tag on is low on the list (at least mine).

I agree with Blue - find the car you like and want, and then figure out how to pay for it, but don't worry about all the pennies.

jtla

Unless they can give me funds at under 4%, they will be making it at my expense - even without their little acquisition and dispositon fees.

BMWFS' money factor on most 3ers is under 4% (2 or 3 years lease term), with max MSD can be under 2%.

kcleuk

I've test driven a TL and I don't like it very much. I really dont care much about engine and horsepower. I dont like the look of the TL.

I like the design of the IS250. I like the Intelligent Key and the Start/Stop button.

ontop

Yea, that IS250 sure has loads of horsepower.

oldcem

Hate to tell you this - but I don't shop for cars based on statistics. I do it the old fahioned way - I go test drive all the ones that interest me. Reliability is not a big factor to me personally, because the local dealer is excellent and the latest cat is equipped with the factory 7year-100k warranty + free loaner car if I need one. The Jag dealer even came and rescued me when my Chevy pickup expired on the interstate this winter. Your statistics won't tell you if the grandkids won't fit in the back seat, if your luggage won't fit in the trunk, or if the damn car is a hand full when it snows or pours rain here in the mountains. Incentives didn't sucker me in, as you imply - didn't even know about them until I'd already decided to buy the first one. As an senior engineer, formerly with GM, and now with a fortune 75 auto parts supplier, you sound more like a troll than a statistician.

joe131

Can somebody help me figure something out?
I don't think anyone has ever explained how Acura's TL can even be considered as an ELLPS.
Well, Acura has to be a luxury brand in the first place, right? Let's assume it is.
Then there is the matter that an ELLPS must be the brand's entry level sedan, right? And there's the rub: the TSX is. The TL is NOT Acura's entry level sedan.
How come every other brand has to play by the rules except Acura?
Hmmmmmmmm...?

Automobile Magazine says: The TSX sedan is easily the finest in the Acura range and a credible rival to Audi's A4, Mercedes-Benz's C-class, and, yes, even BMW's 3-series.

Maybe this should be fixed by eliminating the TL and replacing it the the TSX.

hauss

That's an interesting point. But if we follow that logic we should also remove the Audi A4 from this discussion because the A3 exists and it has four doors. What about the IS350 and BMW 330i/335i? Are the IS250 and BMW 325i/328i inherently different enough from their sisters to exclude them? What about the MB C350?

brightness04

Very good points. Cars are a necessity for running my business and generating income. Beaters or something too shabby just won't do, both for client relation reasons and employee morales. Some of the cars are for employee incentives. Counting the pennies are probably important for most people, especially in an environment where a dealer presents me with a straight face an estimate of $530/mo for an X3, when a tight round of number crunching shows that even the 335i convertible is within reach for same amount of money! For me, frankly, aside from the four laps around Nurburg, shopping the car and getting a good deal is the most fun I will derive from it. I drive 3-5 miles every second or third day, and a typical 40-80 mile trip once or twice a week, half of it at the beginning of a frenetic day with gazillions of things on my mind, and the other half at the end of a long day when I'm really tired. Most driving on public roads is a chore to me, and I leave it to my employees whenever I can (not enough).

habitat1

"BMWFS' money factor on most 3ers is under 4% (2 or 3 years lease term), with max MSD can be under 2%."

Interesting - maybe you or blueguy can explain how they can afford to do that in the long term. I suspect their own cost of funds is in the 5% range. So either they are lowballing residual values, giving less of a discount to MSRP on leased cars, bumping fees, or some other method. I doubt they are operated as a "loss center" (vs. profit center) for BMW, but who knows with those wacky Germans.

Or perhaps it's the "Euro carry trade" or subprime lending scheme that has yet to be uncovered by Wall Street.

P.S. Porsche's lease rates are a lot less friendly. Money factor of around 7.4%. And if you would like to pick up the car at the factory, they'll charge you $3k+ for that priviledge rather than give you a fat discount. Coming, going and in-between, they know "there is no substitute" and price it accordingly.

1487

The TL is in this category due to size, power, features and price. Who said these cars have to be their manufacturer's cheapest car? That doesn't make sense. Just because some people are anti-FWD doesn't mean the TL isnt in this class. The 9-3 is also in this class based on power, features, price and performance.

1487

All of my statements on value are based on features that are offered for the dollar. If we don't use that type of logic it would be impossible to compare cars. All of this "Car x isnt really a better deal because I dont care about the features it offers" isn't going to work. Whenever people dont like a certain vehicle that offers better value people want to discount the features on that vehicle. There is no point in having a luxury car if you want to skimp on the options. I'm not going to compare cars of different classes because its apparent that midsize sedans in 2007 are far better absolute values than entry luxury sedans.

The fact of the matter is that on a feature for your dollar basis several cars in this class are better than the 3 series. If people chose to pay more to get less because they refuse to drive anything other than the 3 series that is their choice. Plenty of people buy cars that are poor value proposition because of brand image, some subjective "feel" that is probably more illusion than fact, brand loyalty, etc.

1487

The truedelta site does a better job than any other i've seen of comparing cars feature for feature. I don't know why stability would be valued at $25 but they tell you on the site that the cost of some features are estimated so its not 100% accurate. That isnt the same as "flawed methodology" at all. Lacking an option will not penalize a car and thus the MKZ isnt going to suffer for not having something that isnt standard on the 3 series. The site takes into account features that are STANDARD on one model but are optional or not available on the other model. Thats the whole point of the price comparisons on the site. The 3 series would only get a price "credit" vs the Lincoln if the sport package was standard.

The site is pretty thorough and more useful than other conventional pricing sites.

quasiactuary

"Hate to tell you this - but I don't shop for cars based on statistics. I do it the old fahioned way - I go test drive all the ones that interest me. Reliability is not a big factor to me personally, because the local dealer is excellent and the latest cat is equipped with the factory 7year-100k warranty + free loaner car if I need one. The Jag dealer even came and rescued me when my Chevy pickup expired on the interstate this winter. Your statistics won't tell you if the grandkids won't fit in the back seat, if your luggage won't fit in the trunk, or if the damn car is a hand full when it snows or pours rain here in the mountains. Incentives didn't sucker me in, as you imply - didn't even know about them until I'd already decided to buy the first one. As an senior engineer, formerly with GM, and now with a fortune 75 auto parts supplier, you sound more like a troll than a statistician. "

If "reliability is not a big factor" to you personally, why did in your original post list the X Type's reliability as a selling point? In fact, it sounded like the strongest selling point you listed. Just from memory (so I apologize in advance if I leave something out) you said it was quick, good handling, had reliability second only to Lexus, and came standard with AWD, a 3.0 V6, and leather. Every car in this segment could be called quick, many are quicker than the X Type...every car in this segment has been called "good handling" by someone...even you seem to have conceded the "second only to Lexus" false statement...AWD is an important option to some, but hardly unique to the X Type...a 3.0 V6 is bigger (maybe better) than what is in some, smaller (maybe worse) than others...and every car in this segment has leather as an option, only BMW doesn't make it standard. So the "second only to Lexus in reliability" statement really stood out to me, and is NOT TRUE.

Buying a car based on something other than statistics and logic is fine, just don't try to convince people they should buy an unreliable car because it is has "reliabilty second only to Lexus" based on the 2 you have owned. By the way, I see that you aren't defending that quote.

And nice strawman argument, you sound like a troll. I never said that you shouldn't test drive cars....never said statistics would tell you everything. But as a statistician (actuary really, but quite similar) I will tell you while a test drive is absolutely essential (in my opinion) in choosing a car, a 15 minute test drive will NOT tell you anything about a car's reliability unless the car happens to break down on you...and a sample size of 2 cars will NOT tell you anything about a car's reliability (other than the fact that the auto maker CAN make at least 2 reliable cars).

As a former senior engineer with GM would you have tested only 2 cars coming off of an assembly line and deemed that enough to tell you everything was kosher? At your fortune 75 auto parts supplier would you only test 2 of your parts to be sure they work? Would you tell the people who buy your auto parts not to worry about the part's reliability because you guys have a warranty...if the part is defective and leaves them stranded they can always return it for another part? I'm guessing that both GM and your current employer do massive amounts of testing and worry constantly about quality/reliabilty of their products.

circlew

Too bad the GM and Ford/Jaguar engineers are not more responsible for quality of their sedans. IMO, I will not comment on the X or S type here because neither are ELLPS as specified in this forum.

To be fair, the more technically sophisticated these cars get, the challenge increases with respect to reliability. Statistics are one thing to measure but when you become part of those statistics, reality bites. Repeat offenses build and perceptions are firmed and are quite hard to change.

So, we tend to rate auto providers by past experience. For now, ALL of the U.S. mfg's are in rebuild mode and it is even more critical to be wary of their offerings. It will be difficult to manage for the foreseeable future.

Regards,
OW

fedlawman

"I don't think anyone has ever explained how Acura's TL can even be considered as an ELLPS."

Actually I agree with you Joe, but not in the way you're thinking.

I believe that the entire "ELLPS Segment" has changed since this thread was created many moons ago. In 2002, the cars that were in this class were the E46, C-Class, A4, TL (Gen 3), IS300. These cars averaged about 200 HP and were, I believe, in a different class than the current breed. When the TSX came out in 2003, it compared very favorably to the 325i, C-Class, and A4 1.8T in size, HP, features, and performance.

The cars listed here now, on the other hand, are pushing 300 HP, are loaded with features, and are softer and heavier - more like the mid-level luxury cars from 5 years ago (E39, M35, A6). This segment is no longer "entry-level" if you ask me.

I believe the ELLPS segment we have here should remain "as is" because it is so well established, but a new class of cars is on the horizon - the "up-and-comers" as I like to call them.

The UAC segment is basically the "new" ELLPS segment and includes cars such as the TSX, A3, and (soon to be sold here) BMW 1-Series. This is a group of cars sold by a "luxury marque" that appeals to younger, up-and-coming professionals who want sporty luxury, but aren't ready to spend $40,000 on a car. The UAC segment offers less performance and fewer features than the ELLPS segment, yet more prestige and sportier dynamics than a CamCord (exactly what this segment used to be).

I once was a customer in the ELLPS segment, and I am still a passionate follower of this class of cars - even though they no longer appeal to me as a potential purchase anymore. They have grown too "midsize" for my tastes. Today, I would sooner purchase an RX-8 or a used E46 than one of these overweight leviathans.

wale_bate1

Good observations and well put, fedlawman.

Precisely my thoughts; the class has outgrown itself and the replacement class is much more at what ELLPS really is.

Of course, that may have something to do with the smaller, lighter (well, somewhat), nimbler, and more driving-oriented the new class is...

1487

Regardless of who said what, it doesnt make sense when you think about the vehicles being compared here. We can compare the A3 to the CTS just because they are the lowest models in their respective lineups. My definition is a midsize luxury car costing between $30k-$45k with at least 200hp as a base powerplant and another engine with 250+hp available. If the car only has one engine with 250+hp like the TL that is fine too.

fedlawman

"All of my statements on value are based on features that are offered for the dollar."

The problem is, you're placing YOUR PERSONAL VALUES into the equation. If you define "luxury" as feature content, "performance" as 0-60 acceleration time, and "value" as most features for the dollar, then let's declare the G35 the winner and close this discussion.

Fortunately, there are as many definitions of luxury, performance, and value as there are people on the planet (well, almost anyways).

Is the G35 the best ELLPS value here because it has 18" wheels, HID's, leather seats, memory settings, 300HP, and RWD, for only $33,000? For some it is.

But if all that mattered was features for the dollar, then Porsche would be out of business tomorrow.

How is a 911S worth $80,000 when you can buy a 400HP Corvette loaded with SELECTIVE RIDE CONTROL, DUAL ROOF PACKAGE, CASHMERE SEATING WITH EMBROIDERED FLAGS EMBLEM, and ONSTAR for only $50,000?!?!

Some folks like the feel of cashmere on their tushy, and some folks like to drive.

blueguydotcom

My definition is a midsize luxury car costing between $30k-$45k with at least 200hp as a base powerplant and another engine with 250+hp available. If the car only has one engine with 250+hp like the TL that is fine too.

Midsize ruins it for me. ELLPS were compact sedans, not behemoth midsizers. Not sure what's entry level or performance oriented about driving a massive vehicle.

blueguydotcom

Agreed.

wale_bate1

"Midsize ruins it for me..."

Me too. Entirely.

billyperks1

Can you please lend me your opinion on the Lexus GS350 rwd and awd.I am so close to pulling the trigger but I am scared that the new generation TL is going to blow everthing away.Habitat I know that you say the lexus are boring but I drove the RWD GS and I was impressed, but please lend me your opinion.

blueguydotcom

Never driven a GS. Too big for me. Sorry.

quasiactuary

Isn't the next generation TL not due out until late 2008 as a 2009 model? Seems like a long time to wait to me. If you like the GL350 (and can afford it), I would go ahead and pull the trigger....you can always trade it in on a 2nd year 2010 TL in 3 years if the TL really does "blow everything away".

hauss

I actually just pulled the trigger on a GS350RWD with Navi and 18" tires for my fiance. It's a great car but in my opinion it's a different type of car for a different type of buyer.

Sure, many on here differ completely in their stance on a lot of the cars we critique here. But to me what we consider ELLPS on here are vastly different from the GS350. Some on here would argue (and they are entitled to do so) that some (if not most) of the ELLPS are not true performers. But when every car on that list above has above avg acceleration, above avg handling, and above avg braking they should all be considered above avg performers. I think that's an extremely reasonable statement.

I find the GS350 to be more refined than the cars in the ELLPS class. And that's not a bad thing. It's a gorgeous car inside and out. It's very comfortable. It's got a boatload of creature comforts at your fingertips. And it's got outstanding acceleration. But from there to me it's handling and braking lag the avg of this class and that takes it's fun to drive factor down a bit from the avg ELLPS. Which is not to say the car is entirely not fun to drive.

If the car fits your needs (as it did my fiance's) and you can afford it then go for it. Enjoy it and tell us about it after you've taken delivery of it.

shipo

How dare you Sir!

How dare you make a post that is so reasonable that nobody can argue about it! ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

hauss

Hey shipo and bgdc, I'm curious about the Euro Delivery program from BMW. How did you get the car across the pond (boat I assume) and, if you don't mind my asking, how much did it cost? Oh, and how long did it take to get the car from Germany to your house in the good ole US of A?

habitat1

Billy,

Good to hear from you. Unfortunately, I can't offer much of an opinion since I have not driven the new GS. Friend of mine is seriously considering one (GS450h, I think), but he and his wife are far more interested in luxury than a sporty drive. He currently has a 1999 +/- GS300 that, although pretty slow and soft by current standards, has been absolutely bulletproof and still looks nice. For him, the new GS would be a big jump up in driving pleasure, without giving up the Lexus luxury they have become accustomed to.

Only thing I might suggest if you are jumping up to the GS price range and size, and are O.K. with RWD, would be to investigate the new 535i. I don't know if/when it will be available, but it would be the sporty alternative to the GS. Edmunds doesn't have much info, but I saw some pricing info posted in another forum. Buying or leasing a BMW through ED makes them a lot more price competitive than most people realize, if you are up for going through the process.

Good luck and keep in touch.

blueguydotcom

Hey shipo and bgdc, I'm curious about the Euro Delivery program from BMW. How did you get the car across the pond (boat I assume) and, if you don't mind my asking, how much did it cost? Oh, and how long did it take to get the car from Germany to your house in the good ole US of A?

Shipping is handled by BMW. Your car's transportation cost is the same as if you picked up in the USA - $775 now, was $95. You pick up the car at the ED center, which is two blocks from a train stop so it's an easy walk. From there you can go directly to the re-delivery drop off a a few miles away or you can drive around Europe and drop off at a variety of locations. The car is shipped with the rest of the new BMWs heading to the USA. When your car arrives your dealer will PDI it as if it were new and call you to come get your new/old car.

Length of trip varies. If you're on the east coast it's pretty common to get the car in 3, 4 weeks tops. Mine took 6 weeks to get to San Diego.

shipo

"Length of trip varies. If you're on the east coast it's pretty common to get the car in 3, 4 weeks tops. Mine took 6 weeks to get to San Diego."

Yup, got mine in something like one day less than four weeks. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

hauss

Well, if BMW still covers the shipping charges in their destination charge I'm confused as to what advantage there is for them to sell you the car over there? I guess it just cuts out the cost of the middle man (aka the dealership)? Do you actually sign all the paperwork over there as you take delivery? I wonder if it's possible to not even go over there to get the vehicle. If you could handle all the paperwork via email and scanned copies and then hire a proxy to get the car to you or give someone power of attorney over there to do it for you.

shipo

A couple of points.

-The buyer still pays the destination charges regardless of whether the car is sourced via ED or domestically.

-You still need to involve your local dealership in the ordering process. That said, to them ED orders are like "Found Money" as ED cars don't come out of their allocation but do count toward gaining future allocations.

-All of the paperwork shy of a few bits that are signed at delivery are signed at your local dealership.

-As a general rule, you cannot use a proxy to fetch your car. Said another way, if you ain't one of the owners, you ain't gittin' the car. The only exception to this rule that I've ever heard about was for folks who couldn't or wouldn't travel shortly after the WTC attack.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom

Well, if BMW still covers the shipping charges in their destination charge I'm confused as to what advantage there is for them to sell you the car over there? I guess it just cuts out the cost of the middle man (aka the dealership)?

Dealership is totally involved and they make about $1000-1200 profit simply for filing paperwork and PDI'ing your car. Plus any backend on the MF and/or loan. The order doesn't come out of allocations, so they make money but don't lose a sale.

Additionally, if you lease BMW pays the second month of the lease while the car is in shipment.

Do you actually sign all the paperwork over there as you take delivery?

Sign for just about everything in the US. When you take delivery they have you sign off a few more docs but I recall most of those were related to insurance and such over there.

I wonder if it's possible to not even go over there to get the vehicle. If you could handle all the paperwork via email and scanned copies and then hire a proxy to get the car to you or give someone power of attorney over there to do it for you.

No. You provide a copy of your passport when you order the car. They will release the car to the person with that passport.

This program has been around for decades.

hauss

How much is the ED discount on average? Any ballpark idea on that?

allargon

Weird. Compact and subcompact ruin it for me.

If I didn't need a back seat, I would buy a coupe or a roadster!

The Jaguar X-type is definitely an ELLPS. I wouldn't buy one. It's a rebadged Ford Mondeo. However, one can call the TL/TSX rebadged Accords and the A4 a reskinned Jetta as well. The X-type AFAIK even has RWD. Its top engine is lacking in HP compared to most cars in this segment. However, it's definitely an ELLPS. You can kick every Acura out of every luxury discussion before arguing that Jaguar isn't a luxury brand.

My main complaint about the X-type isn't the performance or the reliability, but that it lacks the "Ooooh. That's nice!" British styling that other English makes have (every other Jaguar, Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls, Lotus, Mini and even Land Rover).

blueguydotcom

About $5500 from MSRP.

blueguydotcom

The e46's backseat was big enough to fit two adults in my backseat. Good enough for me and my friends. kids are smaller, so they are not a problem either. I frequently had a 6-3 friend in my e46 and he said he was comfortable. I could fit behind myself easily. For a rarely used backseat, it was more than adequate. With kids, it'd be fine too; roadtrips are a thing of the past with airfare so cheap so it's not like the kids or anyone would ever be back there for more than an hour or two on a drive to LA.

A4 and a Jetta do not share a chassis, drivetrain or really much of anything beyond a 2.0T that's mounted differently (one is longitudinal, the other horizontal). Not sure where you got that the A4 is a Jetta. That's utter balderdash.