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Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester

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  • h2k2f2h2k2f2 Posts: 44
    It looks like one area where the 2009 Forester XT can stomp on the Outlander is the the 0-60 test. In a recent Motor Trend test, the Forester XT needed only 6.6 seconds, even with its supposedly inferior automatic transmission. When MT tested the Outlander last year, that CUV needed 8.1 seconds to hit 60 MPH. Ouch!

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/112_0806_2009_subaru_forester_xt_quick_- test/
  • chelentanochelentano Posts: 634
    >> You compared an 2008 model with a brand-new 2009 that doesn't have incentives yet.

    Actually Edmunds TMV of $29,414 for the Outlander does not include incentives. Normal street price for Outlander in this configuration is $28,000K which includes incentives. With additional rebates (student, previous Mitsu owner or veteran you can get additional $500 off). But even regardless incentives, MSPR price for Outlander is also lower vs. Forester MSPR.
    .

    >> Of course the price will be higher. 2008 Forester XTs are still available, if you wanted to compare same year models.

    Actually I did a favor to Subaru fans. 2008 Forester is so obsolete - it cannot compete with 2008 Outlander.
    .

    >> You also dismiss the extras that the Forester has (how convenient).

    Like I said these extras are insignificant but if you want to fight for every cup holder, we can add all minor extras, no problem, though Outlander has more extras.
    .

    >> The hood struts are very cool, pop the hood and it raises itself. I do my own maintenance and this important to me. The cheap prop rod clip on my Miata has broken twice, a real nuisance.

    While owning last two cars, I had never opened my hood (my mechanic did), so I don’t care and I don’t even know the difference to tell what kind of “struts” it got.
    .

    >> You dismiss SportShift but your chart lists paddle shifters, so it should list the tap shift feature on the Forester. Some prefer them on the steering wheel, others prefer them on the shifter itself. Personal preference. But if the chart lists one, it should list the other, if you want to be fair.

    Outlander also has Sport Shift. Like I’ve said, the chart does not list features available on both cars in the same way (standard/option). So, for instance, if both cars have Tire Pressure Monitor, or power windows, then we don’t put in this chart, otherwise chart gets too long. But in addition to the Sport Shift, Outlander has paddle shifters, which is listed as a separate feature even on Edmund.com. So I believe it’s perfectly fair.
    .

    >> Subaru’s AWD is proactive, it adjust constantly even before there is slip. In fact in 1st and 2nd gears it defaults to 50/50. Only when cruising does it default to 90/10.

    Yea, so Subaru owner gets quality ride only in 1st and 2nd gear. That’s what I am saying: Forester is practically a part-time AWD.


    >> How do I know about trailer wiring. See photo below. The harness is there, just plug and play.

    Well, Edmunds.com says there is no wiring. They do make mistakes, but your photo is taken out of contexts from who know where, and looks like from old car, not 2009. Don’t you have a link from Subaru site or some car site which would say that it has the trailer wiring?
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    >> let me ask, how does the Outlander's GPS system work? Will it let you enter an address while moving? Most don't. To me this is a deal-killer. If you can't use it while on the go, even when a passenger occupies the seat next to you and can enter it, well, that just stinks.

    Yes, you can enter, change, and delete destinations while running at any speed. So to my knowledge the Outlander is the only a car in this segment, which has this capability. Besides, the navigation on Outlander is faster due to its hard drive based design. It also equipped with unique for this price category GPS Diamond Lane Guidance system.
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    >> You mention the Outlander's standard air filtration but the Forester has that too.

    That's not what I meant, not just filtration. Outlander has air purifier and interior part of the roof is made of special odor absorbing material.
    .

    >> According to my Consumer's Guide (not the same as CR, by the way) Auto 2008, the Outlander only has a tilt wheel. The Forester XT's tilts and telescopes.

    I know, and Forester already got credit for it in the chart.
    .

    >> Also according to that same book, heated mirrors and wiper de-icers are standard on the Forester XT. It makes no mention of those on the Outlander, that's why I asked you to make sure, since you own the car and should know.

    2008 model of Outie has heated mirrors, but not de-icer. De-icer available on Outie in other then US markets, but we will give Forester a credit for it.
    .

    >> The rear seats on the Forester can also recline. They even make a bed with the front seats.

    Same here.
    .

    >> You mention the leather steering wheel and shifter on the Outlander but the Forester has those, too.

    Yea, but on Forester it’s a dealer installed option, and on the Outie it’s factory standard feature.
  • chelentanochelentano Posts: 634
    Good point, Forester appears to be quicker. But you would expect this better acceleration from a car with the same horse power as the Outlander, but 500 pounds lighter and with turbocharger. Similar situation exists with Mazda CX-7. Of course 4-cylinder Turbo engines accelerate faster, but they use premium gas, work harder, produce more emission, less reliable and can do less payload/tow load. I believe for these reasons 4cyl turbo would not be a good choice of engine for SUV/CUV.

    No one could surprise us these days with more horse power and more torque. Mitsubishi, for instance, got spectacular 405 hp out of its Evo 8 MR FQ400, which had only 2 Liter turbocharger! It makes 0-60 in 3.5 sec.

    Surprise is, when you can get a combination of high power, low gas mileage and low emissions. The Outlander is attempted as balanced power/emissions/milage car. It has smooth regular gasoline V6 engine, which deliver appropriate power, but low emissions and reasonable for full-time AWD milage.
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,978
    Actually Edmunds TMV of $29,414 for the Outlander does not include incentives.

    It depends on what incentives you mean. TMV takes into account any current manufacturer-to-dealer incentives for the vehicle. Manufacturer-to-consumer rebates aren't included since they don't affect the actual transaction price. You negotiate your best deal and then you choose whether to get cash back or whether to apply the rebate against the sales price. TMV

    Just curious, how do you check your oil without raising your hood? :shades:
  • chelentanochelentano Posts: 634
    >> It depends on what incentives you mean. TMV takes into account any current manufacturer-to-dealer incentives for the vehicle.

    Edmunds TMV is not quite accurate for Mitsubishi cars. Edmunds TMV is above invoice, but if you read "Prices Paid" forum, everyone gets the Outlander below invoice. $28K below invoice price is possible exactly because of dealer incentives from Mitsubishi, which lack transparency and not publicized. Consumer incentives take price even lower. Most people don't get consumer incentives picking a low financing instead. Additional consumer incentives such as student, veteran or loyalty $500 rebates each are also available. So you can get this car stuffed with technology and 5/10 warranty for quite cheap. I'd say it's the best deal in any car segment.

    >> Just curious, how do you check your oil without raising your hood?

    I don't! As I mentioned in my post, my mechanic checks my oil :)
    Why should I? While they change my oil, they do that free 20-point inspection, tire pressure, etc. And if I get a flat tire I have free road side assistance from Mitsubishi.
    Also if I get low oil level, I'd get the Oil Warning signal on my multi-information display, so no manual oil check is really needed by consumer.
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,978
    Old habit I guess - I usually check my oil every time I fill up with gas.

    I think TMV is accurate. Remember, it's reporting what people are paying for a car in your area.

    People who participate on the forums here are more car savvy and informed than the typical buyer, so naturally they tend to beat TMV. :shades:
  • chelentanochelentano Posts: 634
    >> I think TMV is accurate. Remember, it's reporting what people are paying for a car in your area.

    You might be right.

    >> People who participate on the forums here are more car savvy and informed than the typical buyer, so naturally they tend to beat TMV.

    So it pays to visit these forums :--)
  • chelentanochelentano Posts: 634
    The chart is updated, including your corrections and comments.

    Forester got credit for more torque, bigger tank, wiper dicer, sunroof, standard heated seats, and standard leather. Also mentioned shiftable transmission, hood struts, and perforated leather. Hill Assist feature is not added, since this turbo model is not equipped with it.
  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,110
    So it pays to visit these forums :--)

    Indeed, it does.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • h2k2f2h2k2f2 Posts: 44
    The notion that turbos are less reliable is more urban legend today than anything else. And yes, I am aware of the rumor mill frenzy that is going on with the 2.5 liter Subaru turbos.

    "Surprise is, when you can get a combination of high power, low gas mileage and low emissions. The Outlander is attempted as balanced power/emissions/milage car. It has smooth regular gasoline V6 engine, which deliver appropriate power, but low emissions and reasonable for full-time AWD milage."

    What's funny is that the Subaru Forester XT with its turbo seems to do a better job of meeting that sweet combination of high power, low mlieage, and low emissions. It produces higher power and makes more efficient use of it (due in part to the Forester's lower weight). It has better fuel efficiency than the Outlander and meets the same emissions standards (both LEV II with PZEV models available for sale in some states). It looks like Mitsubishi needs to go back to work on its V6.
  • comem47comem47 Posts: 389
    To Subaru's credit they have redesigned the turbo to come in at lower rpms and be more seemless. (Turbos can be peaky). The main negative is the price (I was off on my estimate and premium locally is about 30 cents more per gallon, not just 10cents)

    For closely the same fuel economy (albeit a bit less power) I'd rather be spending $3.30 a gal than $3.60 (net effect of the turbo being less $fuel efficient in this case). In the example above for a 15 gal fill-up the regular gas car will cost $49.50 to the premium gas car $54.
  • chelentanochelentano Posts: 634
    >> It produces higher power

    This higher torgue of turbo engine gets you a better acceleration, but Forester has lower payload/tow load specs. Exactly the same story with Mazda CX-7 turbo.
    .

    >> It produces higher power and makes more efficient use of it (due in part to the Forester's lower weight).

    The lower weight is one factor in the Forester's decent gas mileage. Another one is 90/10 AWD split: in normal driving conditions Forester is practically a 2WD car. Subaru realized that they could not meet these mileage/emission targets with a full-time 50/50 split, so they had to cut corners to achieve that gas mileage and emission standards.

    The Outlander on the other hand meets these targets with 60/40 full-time split. And it has much better payload/tow specs.
  • h2k2f2h2k2f2 Posts: 44
    For some of us, towing is a non-issue. Also the Forester's torque split is not held to 90:10 and is proactively adjusted as needed. So, your claimed advantages aren't selling points for me. Overall, for me, the XT still wins in the powertrain department over the Outlander V6.
  • chelentanochelentano Posts: 634
    >> For some of us, towing is a non-issue.

    It's not only towing, it's regular payload also. We are not driving raodster, we are driving utility vehicle here, so payload is important to many.
    .

    >> Also the Forester's torque split is not held to 90:10 and is proactively adjusted as needed.

    It adjusted only if slippage occurs. Otherwise it's practically a 2WD car. And government EPA testing is done in a lab, so there is no much slipping.
    .

    >> Overall, for me, the XT still wins in the powertrain department over the Outlander V6.

    Right, XT's superior powertrain comes with engine problems, nearly part-tme AWD and antiquated 4-speed Auto.
  • h2k2f2h2k2f2 Posts: 44
    It adjusted only if slippage occurs. Otherwise it's practically a 2WD car. And government EPA tasting is done in a lab, so there is no much slipping.

    Sorry, it is adjusted in anticipation of slippage in some circumstances. But if you can't accept that fact, I can't help you.

    And government EPA tasting is done in a lab, so there is no much slipping.

    I didn't realize that they actually tasted things as part of the tests. Mmmm! :)

    Right, XT's superior powertrain comes with engine problems, nearly part-tme AWD and antiquated 4-speed Auto.

    The four speed is well matched to its engines. It still delivers the goods that the Outlander's six speed doesn't (higher EPA numbers and better 0-60 numbers). More gears isn't always better and this is a case in point.
  • chelentanochelentano Posts: 634
    >> Sorry, it is adjusted in anticipation of slippage in some circumstances.

    I accept your apologies, and I am glad that now you are saying “some circumstances” which is a progress in a splitting hair process:--)
    .

    >> didn't realize that they actually tasted things as part of the tests.

    Yea, government employees combine it with wine tasting :--)


    >> The four speed is well matched to its engines. More gears isn't always better and this is a case in point.

    Nice try for excuse. I wonder why don’t they use a 4-speed tranny on top of the line Mercedes and Lexus? Why do they use a 7 and 8-speed transmission? They are so behind...
  • h2k2f2h2k2f2 Posts: 44
    >> The four speed is well matched to its engines. More gears isn't always better and this is a case in point.

    Nice try for excuse. I wonder why don’t they use a 4-speed tranny on top of the line Mercedes and Lexus? Why do they use a 7 and 8-speed transmission? They are so behind...

    IYou are making sweeping generalizations. More gears doesn't automatically equal superior performance. The Subaru Forester is a case in which more gears don't provide any benefit beyond bragging rights.
  • comem47comem47 Posts: 389
    Put another way with the current fuel prices. If both vehicles average 22 mpg combined and you pay 30 cents more for premium fuel then that's around 9% more or degrade the mpgs for an equivalent fuel cost to getting a little over 20 mpg vs the 22 mpg on the same $$ for a regular fuel vehicle. The "cost MPGs" are not the same.
  • chelentanochelentano Posts: 634
    Yeap. You pay more for the Forester, for gas, for repairs (shorter warranty), but you get less equipment and older technology, compare to the Outlander.

    For instance 2009 Forester comes with dated 4-speed tranny, but 2009 Outlander coming with spectacular 6-speed Twin Clutch: huge technological gap.
  • h2k2f2h2k2f2 Posts: 44
    Just keep telling yourself this stuff. Maybe even you'll eventually really believe it.
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