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MPG is one aspect of performance, cargo capacity is one aspect of performance, top speed is one aspect of performance, skidpad and etc., etc...
TDI has excellent off line performance due to high torque at low RPM, will go 110 MPH, and still achieve over 40 MPG. The difference between going 0-60 in 7 seconds or 10 seconds is not the most important criteria in purchasing a vehicle for me. Taking off from a stoplight, merging on an onramp, passing, cruising at 85 MPH are all functions that are performed w/o any difficulty in a TDI. I used to ride a VFR 750 and drive a Capri RS with modified 5.0 so I am well aware of high speed performance. For the most part I believe it belongs on the track.
2.0 is likely adequate for most people, even if this topic does have a majority of 1.8T owners. Most of which have rattles which both my Jetta and Golf do not have.
the Mini is just like the PT Cruiser and Beetle. A gimmick. that gets old in less than a year. in my opinion it is a neat little car, but they are already EVERYWHERE i look around here. not unique anymore. and that is really all it has going for it, in my opinion. in fact, a Golf is much more rare it seems. everyone has Jettas not to mention, in my opinion again, the Mini interior is straight out of Pontiac school of design. too round, too much shiny stuff. seems like it is better put together, with a step up in quality, but that isn't saying much. why can't all car makers offer quality and functionality and simple style like VW, at a VW price?
newcar -
lay off the (not so) smart remarks. they make you look extremely "slow" - we haven't been in "attack" mode in almost two weeks! get with the program. even BLUEGUY and I are playing nicely.
just some friendly advice....
moparbad- When most people think of performance with regards to automobiles, they don't think of fuel mileage or cargo capacity. You chose aspects of performance that would put the Golf ahead of the Mini and would make the statement "got him better performance" true. Well, most people don't think of performance that way which is the reason you don't hear Civic Hybrids and Golf TDI's refered to as "performance" cars. You know exactly what I am talking about and I have a feeling that you are arguing for the sake of arguing.
"For the most part I believe it (performance) belongs on the track."
And you belong in a TDI Golf.....
Okey dokey. To each his own, man. When I think performance I think of something quick off the line, that has some punch and that doesn't weigh down the vehicle. TDI's have some pull but what's the 0-60 on one of those? 9-10-11 seconds? C'mon my 91 Stanza did better than that. And while I may care a bit about gas mileage, when it comes to gas or performance, performance always wins for me. I can stop for gas more often...
Justin, FYI in 02 you CANNOT get a Golf with a 1.8T. You can get a GTI, but not a Golf. 01 was the last year of the 1.8T Golf. http://www.edmunds.com/new/2002/volkswagen/golf/index.html Check out the page with all the Golf versions. No 1.8T. Just the TDI and the 2.0.
I do agree about the mini being the flavor of the month. And I think it's too small. But from everything I've heard, it handles as if it were glued to the road. And with the S model it'll hit 60 in under 7 seconds. Not too shabby.
Was I "arguing" just to argue? No, I was providing a different viewpoint to counter the 1.8T is great and everything else is crap viewpoint that I see so often here.
Yes, I'm well aware of what the sequacious masses prefer...SUVs, minivans, Camcords, etc. They're not interested in luxury, style, performance or anything beyond cupholders and if it's as good as the Jones's car.
For under 20k I couldn't find another car that matched the Jetta's mix of safety, luxury-like feel and some sporting character. Now if all I cared about was some measure of luxury and safety, I could have purchased a roomier, more reliable, better made soulless Honda or Toyota.
While final 0-60 numbers aren't paramount, they do determine for me if a car feels safe. If I can not accelerate to 60 in under 8 seconds I feel VERY vulnerable when merging onto the freeway. The 2.0 from my experience felt decidely unsafe for just that reason. It couldn't get out of its own way unless it's perched atop a hill.
Maybe others can live with an unresponsive engine and a constant feeling of the car's rear-end dragging. Sorry, that doesn't fly for me. Never will.
For those considering a Jetta and wondering if a 2.0 is too slow, count off two seconds and if you feel vulnerable thinking about it the 2.0 is not for you. After reading your hill comment I realize just how EXTREME your opinion is.
As far as TDI sales they are between 10-15% of total sales. The number sold is limited more by the number of engines available right now more than it is by consumer demand. Even if there were more TDI available I doubt that the percentage would ever reach 20% in the current climate of low fuel prices and the desire for more HP and bigger vehicles in the US. How long can it be before we see Ford Expeditions with 500 HP that get 9 mpg? I'll stick with my 50 MPG, 10 second 0-60(I don't feel unsafe!), 16" Montreal II wheels for extra traction, Jetta TDI.
Get real, it's 10 seconds. It's hard enough making the Jetta perform well at 7.1-7.5 seconds, I can't imagine the abject horror of merging onto San Diego freeways in a car that takes that long to reach a meager 65 mph (which is too slow to begin with). No amount of skill can compensate for the fact that the base and TDI Jetta can't easily merge from a on-ramp lamp. I've seen the 2.slows and TDIs getting onto the freeway from the lights. I've passed them too. Without breaking 5k on the tach. They're perpetually standing still when it comes to merging/changing lanes.
To be frank 0-60 isn't really indicative of what I need so much as the 0-75 times required for me to launch from a freeway on-ramp and merge comfortably with the flow of traffic. Do I want to slice through traffic or suffer the indiginity of seeing another car's lights bearing down on me because my car can't slip into the flow? Maybe for "skilled" drivers it's fun cutting off people traveling faster than they are, or even better, braking into the lane after one car speeds by so the next guy has to slam on his brakes for you. I see those "skilled" drivers every day: "I can't reach a reasonable rate of speed quickly, but I'll move into your lane and cut you off, then add to my error by hitting my brakes as you approach." (why the blazes do people do that anyway?!!!)
I did driver's ed at 15 (after 5 years of driving on my own already) and I remember the horror of getting onto the freeway in a K-car (I was used to driving a Z28, Pulsar and various V6/V8 powered trucks). You simply can't go from a standstill to freeway speeds in a safe amount of time in a car like that. You're forced to merge by simply cutting off people and making them slam on their brakes or braking (momentum crushed) and then moving into the lane. No thanks.
To be honest my Jetta's not nearly fast enough for me. The 1.8T feels nice but I think the car needs another 100 HP and 100 lb-ft of torque to really feel comfortable at all times. Even now I reach points where I need to leap forward with more speed and the 1.8T can't make it happen fast enough.
We have different needs and driving styles. You value MPG - I really don't. While I'd like to see north of 25 mpg in the Jetta more than once a year, I realize it's my own fault that I don't. No big loss, so I buy more gas.
500 HP Expeditions? Can Ford build an engine that powerful? I thought they were tapped out with their Focus. LOL (before people attack, I'm aware of Ford's futile attempts at performance cars: Mustang Cobra, GT-40, etc).
In terms of the TDI not being able to get out its own way, I dont know if you have driven it or not, but I have no problems getting on and off the highway. I drive on three highways in each direction on my commute to work, and have to accelerate out of 7, count them 7 (I know, it sucks money out of my wallet pretty fast), and I find myself accelerating faster than most of the other cars. Traffic on the Mass Pike in the Boston area is extremely aggressive, and I have no problems keeping up. I don't pull out in front of people at a slow speed, and I hate people that do. I think that is less of a function of your car's ability to accelerate and more a function of poor judgment.
This is just my analysis on VW Jetta/engine choices.
BTW - I love my 2.0 jetta. Also, I have over 2,000 miles on my Jetta and the oil dip stick has not budged from full. It may appear that VW finally fixed the oil consumption issues of the past. At least I hope so.
On the other hand, the TDI is pretty good. I wanted pure, brute power in my Jetta, so I got the turbo engine. Next time, I might settle for a diesel (I drive ~100 miles a day usually) if they bring over the bigger, better diesels from Europe in the MKV.
http://detnews.com/2001/autos/0111/20/b01-345143.htm
Some of PD TDI motor, are more powerful, (130 & 150 bhp), but not bigger.
The 2.5L V6 TDI makes about as much power has the 1.9L 150 bhp PD TDI.
Different strokes. I go nuts when I drive in Oregon and Nevada as everybody does exactly the speed limit. It's like those states are giant retirement communities. One weird thing I've noticed in those states is that other drivers actively block you from speeding. I eventually caught on to this and found myself travelling in the slow lane quickly and then cutting over to the faster lanes to pass. Seems you can sneak up on the slow drivers from directly behind but if you're in another lane they see you and block you. Weird.
Oh, 280 in a Jetta would be magic. Yeah outa the front wheels that'd be an issue (though the Maxima puts out 255), so maybe they should slap the 4Motion into it too! Heh, heh, heh.
driving since 10? and the need for 300 hp to feel "adequate"
wow...all I can say is wow. I don't think you merge into traffic as much as you race into pole positions on the freeway. I have never driven a San Diego freeway, but I cannot imagine they are radically different than Chicago, Minneapolis, or Phoenix freeways in demeanor or aggressiveness. Launching your car 0-60 in 3.9 seconds may make you feel good, but I think the other factors that weight into what would make a car that fast are costly indeed.
The 1.8T is a very nice engine, lots of pop and verve for a small, quasi-entry level, sports sedan. The TDI, on the other hand, gives you real world performance that is more than adequate for 99% of the world's drivers (and yes, I ALWAYS think my cars could benefit from a little more power myself) but also give commuters a good comprimise of utility and frugality. The 2L is a decent engine, but other than the savings of purchasing a 2L, I think it falls a little short on both sides, neither blistering performance nor frugality. That is why it is not well-loved by most "enthusiasts" IMO, because the engine has the worst sides of both coins (other engines) a 30 mpg engine that is on par with the performance of the TDI. But saving $2k out the door at the dealership is no joke, and the 2L should be an easier car to maintain (no turbo or diesel vs. gas issues).
I can respect your need for speed blueguy...but I question your use of the word "need" when I think "want" would be more accurate a description. I want a Porsche 911 Turbo once in a great while, to blip past annoying trucks and drunk drivers weaving to and fro...but most days my lil 138 hp 318ti is enough to get me around just fine, even accelerating onto the highways.
Besides, unless you onramps are only 100 ft long, you should have plenty of space in your lane to reach a safe speed before you merge. I can hit 75 easily in my slow car before I need to merge over into the traffic lanes...
not trying to pick on you, but it just didn't add up to responsible driving/ownership to me. Could be wrong...
happy motoring, and remember, the right lane is for slower traffic, the left lane for loading and unloading...
BTW, what good does it do to call the police? It's not like you can get a ticket without a cop witnessing the infraction. FWIW, i've been driving for 18 years (12 legally) and I've only got one speeding ticket (earned in Nevada while arguing and not paying attention to NV's outback, [non-permissible content removed] law enforcement officers).
And yes I started driving at 10. My friend's parents would take us out to college parking lots and also to a several hundred acre farm outside of Sacramento and we'd tear it up with all sorts of cars. Lots of fun. I'd say it's the best way to learn how far you can push a car if you can drive around without fear of hitting anything. Hey what happens if I yank the parking brake up and crank the wheels? Try it. Induce oversteer in a FWD car (not an easy task)? Give it a go. Purposely fishtail with a RWD car? Go for it.
And the one on-ramp I use daily from work actually is about 100-150ft. It's a short one and it requires you get on it. The idea is, do you get on it and strain the engine or can you hit it and have more on-tap should it be needed? There's the key element. Most cars can hit 80+ in the 1/4 mile today, but how many can do that and continue to pull strongly? Not many. I know, I drove just about every car made before settling on the Jetta.
200+hp and 245lb-ft from your 1.8T
It'll feel like a whole new car. Probably should order a new diverter valve at the same time tho. :^)
Oh and BTW, my TDI is still pulling strong when I get past 80. My 60-80 acceleration time is probably pretty close to your 1.8T, while staying in 5th no less.
I would chip mine if not for the fact that I hope to part ways with the car in near future (hopefully by year's end).
a neat place to compare prices:
http://www.massachusettsgasprices.com/retail_price_chart.asp
The beetle and PT cruiser are going strong here, not out of style as you suggest.
quality? Not from the rattles people here complain about.
They want decent, reliable, affordable transportation. Is that so bad?
---
"...knew how to drive on the road without going 100mph for no darn reason at all, then you wouldn't need a 280hp engine in a car."
Yeah, I thought it sounded funny too. Kind of like someone is trying to make up for lack of driving skill and judgement with horsepower.
?
Anonymous, "They want decent, reliable, affordable transportation. Is that so bad?"
I know. That's what I wrote. They're not interested in anything beyond cupholders (the true mark of quality in the USA) and what the Joneses' drive.
One more thing, yesterday about the PD 1.9 TDI? What does "PD" stand for, anyone? Thanks.
In relation to that other question, I am not entirely sure, but I think that PD means Pumpe-Diesel. What that means however, I have no idea. Only that it makes you go faster, and that I want one. :-D
People in Europe with TDI's and 1.8T's also use that kit as well.
Restricting some flow to the intercooler isn't really going to do too much damage. The real affect is the possibility of making less power.
Thanks
However, there seems to have been some issues with the throttle for the new engine. It seems very jerky, from what I have read about it. Also, the VR6 uses alot more gas than the 1.8T does as well.