Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

sweendogy · October 2012

This is now interesting. Flight you better do some serious "fact" finding to properly respond.

habitat1 · October 2012

You and what other five people?

I'll take one of those 5 slots. And I have plenty of friends and colleagues that would create a waiting list for the other four.

You may be right that the percentage of so-called ELLPS with manual transmissions has been on the decline. But you are also wrong that BMW and others still don't want the "enthusiast minority" being enthusiastic about their cars. Even though it might be true, I don't expect them to change their marketing slogan to "the ultimate couch potato's semi-sporty semi-luxury machine".

Granted...there are plenty of enthusiasts - and even professional drivers - that will claim the Porsche PDK or BMW DCT is their preference over a traditional manual. I test drove a manual Boxster S on Saturday and the sales manager indicated a 50/50 take rate on the PDK for the Boxster S at his dealership.

HOWEVER...there isn't anyone I know that has the ability to use even half of the capability of an M3 or Boxster that wouldn't consider being forced to drive a slushbox automatic as equivalent to castration. Without anesthesia.

habitat1 · October 2012

Guess what, I don't think Infiniti is trying to clone a BMW 3.

Sure about that?? It's been several years since I've been in an Infiniti dealership. But when I was last there, they seemed hell bent on trying to sell me on the virtues of the RWD G35 as being much more of a BMW 330i competitor than the FWD TL I was considering at the time. I walked out with reprints from Road and Track, Motor Trend, etc.

Interesting that I ended up with the TL. I made a conscious trade-off for several of the reasons you mentioned. Price, larger back seat (2 kids), reliability and maintenance concerns, etc. I got an OK performing sport sedan, but one that met my more basic transportation needs and do-dad preferences at the time. But looking back, I definitely think Infiniti had been marketing the G35 much more as a "BMW beater" than Acura ever did with the TL.

The problem isn't necessarily that Infiniti doesn't quite have BMW beat in performance and driving dynamics. They are still WAY ahead of Lexus in that department. The problem becomes when their marketing department tries to sell attributes that their engineers don't deliver on. You don't hear a Lexus dealer claiming that an ES is a BMW 335i beater. Infiniti either needs to reposition themselves from a marketing perspective as different than BMW or have their engineers step it up and deliver the goods if they want to invite the comparison themselves.

graphicguy · October 2012

tdbmd.....for years, we (GF and I) resisted Audis. Seems we could never get together with any of the local dealers (all 2 of them). It always seemed they either wouldn't deal on a car we liked. Or, they didn't have anything we liked and really weren't all that interested in finding something we'd want.

Over the last 5-7 years, we had looked at an A4, and an A6. But, neither hit our sweet spot (although, I'd take an A6 over a BMW 5 or Mercedes E class).

I had never even seen an Audi S series before a few months ago, outside of reading about them in the trade rags.

I'm a BMW fan. Like many others, I feel they make some of the finest sports/luxury cars in the world. Some have tried (most recently, Cadillac and Infiniti). But, no other company had been able to really hit the nail on the head like BMW has done with their 3 Series.

However, you get one all loaded up (like I like my cars), and you're staring at a $50K+ tab at the dealership. That has extended to the 3 with the 4 cyl motors these days. To me, tough pill to swallow.

The GF and I had been looking for a car for her. I originally thought a 2012 BMW 328i with the former 6 cyl would have been perfect, especially given the deals available right before the F30 hit the streets.

We gave Audi another shot. Actually found an S4 at a local dealership (by accident....as it wasn't listed on their inventory when I checked on line).

We test drove it. With a 2011 BMW 335i coupe, I was stunned at how good the S4 is. As "MarkinCincinnati" stated previously, the entire S line are overall among the finest cars I've ever driven. That's pretty heady company given I've driven Boxters, 'Vettes, BMWs, and many other really good cars. GF agreed!

Now, it was only a matter of finding one we wanted and getting down to a "deal". Was able to secure Audi supplier discount, but had to trave to Chicago to get it (5 hours away).

Neither of us could be any more pleased with the car. Yes, it's about the price of a BMW 335i, but IMHO a much better car. That's saying something given I still love my 335i.

markcincinnati · October 2012

Once upon a time, I was one of those "give me a stick shift or give me death" kind of folks. The result? I had to special order the cars (usually Audis) that I acquired -- finding a stick shift was very very difficult in 2003 (my last stick.) Any stick you could find was typically on the base car -- which never made sense to me.

Of course, I was wrong. Those wanting manual transmissions, even as long ago as 2003 were looking for "purple squirrels" -- today we former purple squirrel seekers understand that stick shifts are basically not even blips on many, no, most car company's radar (sales wise). This is clearly aimed at 'mericans, but in my many travels to Europe, well, stick shifts are going the way of the dumb phone. Given a choice of a 6, 7, 8 or more speed clutchless auto, CVT auto or regular auto, most folks -- by far -- seek to go clutchless.

I say we all better get over it and realize that stick shifts make for good TV commercials and perhaps make for good reading about -- for those of us with too many car magazine subscriptions, but overwhelmingly at least 97.5% of "us" (even those who have NO problem driving a stick) wouldn't even consider a stick and certainly wouldn't consider ordering one and waiting 12 weeks for it to arrive.

A contemporary 8-speed "slush" is so much better than the 4,5 and even some 6 speed autos of the not-too-distant past most folks probably say "why bother" (with a stick shift)? The 7-speed DSG's are also wonderful and in most cases (if you believe the test reports) are able to equal and often better 6-speed manuals.

Stick shifts make for good ad copy and for the 2.5% of us who might actually buy one, it is nice to know sticks aren't dead (yet). The truth of the matter -- for me -- is that I would rather spend time and treasure on a sport suspension package, sport seats, wheels and super sticky tires (even the Max Performance tires, tho, are rapidly becoming an endangered species here in the US where most folks don't swap wheels and tires for summer and winter duty.)

The 10th largest BMW dealership (according to them, at least) is here in Cincinnati -- they have no manual transmission new cars on the lot. If you ask them, they say there is little use in floor planning them since they sit forever, until they are discounted so heavily that folks are willing to "settle" for a stipped-down base Bimmer.

If you want to blame something for the stick's demise (besides ignorance and apathy -- and indifference), blame mobile smart-phones. You can't possibly drive a stick shift when you have both hands on the phone texting your little heart out, all the while steering with your knees.

Hell, I'll go so far as to suggest that the self-driving car can't come soon enough for most folks.

:surprise:

dino001 · October 2012

I basically agree and that's why I get one (stick) before it went, so I can say 20 years from now "I used to own a BMW with a stick shift"

m6user · October 2012

It's been several years since I've been in an Infiniti dealership

Wow, there's some real credibility speaking here. Yes, I'm sure that I don't think Infiniti is trying to clone a 3. Can't prove it that why I said "I think". I believe you may have marketing confused with reality. Everybody markets their cars to be this or that. Even, BMW with their crappy stop/start system and steering that is getting to be more vanilla every year. The BMW 328 is slow in straightline compared to a G but every BMW fanboy comes back and says "oh, but straightline speed means nothing...it's the driving dynamics of the BMW that are so good". Ok, if one cares so much more about driving dynamics that speed than get a BMW. If one wants OK dynamics but also some great power get a G among other things considered. The standard TL is like a boat compared to the standard G. Now the sh-awd TL is great but is still huge compared to the G or the BMW 3. It's the size of the current 5 series.

BTW, I would match Infiniti's reliability and maintenence costs against Acura anyday. I presently own an Acura and owned an Infiniti for 10 years until two weeks ago.

habitat1 · October 2012

BTW, I would match Infiniti's reliability and maintenence costs against Acura anyday. I presently own an Acura and owned an Infiniti for 10 years until two weeks ago.

Wow, that's some real credibility (and loyalty) speaking here.

I believe you may have marketing confused with reality. Everybody markets their cars to be this or that.

I have no trouble distinguishing between marketing and reality. The fact is that when Infiniti and Lexus first came to the market, Lexus took aim at Mercedes and Infiniti took aim at BMW. No cars epitomized this more than the LS400 and Q45. As time went on, Lexus continued to send over cars that were luxurious, and well made, never-mind that they completely lacked a sporting soul. Infiniti tried to distinguish itself with performance. It has had marginal success.

The problem comes from setting too high of market/customer expectations by comparing yourself to something you aren't. Look, for my age, I'm a pretty good baseball player. Maybe even very good by the standard that hardly anybody my age still has metal cleats and isn't afraid to stand in against a 30 year old pitcher that can still throw 80+. But I don't compare myself to Bryce Harper. More like Bob Uecker. That sets a reasonable expectation for my fan base (i.e. wfe and daughters) that, when I actually get a couple of hits and steal a couple of bases, they congratulate me. Rather than boo me when my throw from third to first ends up somewhere in the home team dugout.

If you are going to talk the talk, you better be able to walk the walk.

markcincinnati · October 2012

My wife and I have had so many German cars, I do feel I can offer up a data point or two, rather than "just" an anecdote.

Audis and BMW's (through 2009, at least) are breathtakingly expensive to have beyond their factory warranties. I say this even though I now would "risk" keeping one of these Germans beyond 50,000 miles.

I would, however, start to get downright nervous (and twitchy) once my German car got beyond 60,000 or perhaps 65,000 miles.

Not so with Acura's and Infiniti's.

I must inject here that we have had 29 Audis, 3 BMW's and 3 VW's since the late 1970's and only two "Japanese" representatives -- a 2012 Acura TL Advance SH-AWD and a 2011 Infiniti FX35 AWD.

Here is why I qualified my observations regarding the Acura and Infiniti: we've only had 2 of them and we have had both of them less than 2 years (each). For all I know, the Acura and Infiniti will blow up (expense wise) just like the Germans, post-50,000 miles. I doubt it and here's why.

Every German car we've had is, "at birth," the best driving auto ever -- and then at 5,000, 10,000 and sometimes even 15,000 miles they get even better (the engine finally reaches its maximum efficiency apparently.) Yet, somewhere between 15,000 and 25,000 miles, the German car really needs a "tune up" just to keep its (or my) spirits lifted. What I mean by this is that the German cars, thus far in my experience, have been the best driving and performing cars ever, time after time. Yet, these high-strung darling's age so quickly, so noticably and they just "loose that lovin' feelin'" unless they are maintained by sacrificing so very much coin of the realm. In the case of the Audis and BMW's -- thankfully -- bumper to bumper maintenance for 50,000 miles masked what that man behind the curtain was doing to keep pumping up the Audi and/or BMW to approximately full strength.

Put simply, the Germans show their age unless given lots of TLC ($).

Conversely, my wife's FX with about 35,000 miles on it is showing virtually no visual wear and is also "feeling new" -- there was no need for a mini overhaul post 25,000 miles as was required on every German car we've ever had (to maintain that new car feeling.) My Acura, too, at 25,000 miles seems to deny any perceptable effects of the miles on it. Only the front rotors on the Acura (which felt way warped at 8,000 miles) give anything about its age away -- and the rotors, after three turnings are eligible to be replaced under warranty (I've had them turned twice, to no avail.)

So, from my perch, looking down on the dozens of cars the missus and I have had since the '70's, I would say if you want great driving cars (temporarily great, that is) go German, and just realize they are the equivalent of being married to a super model -- they're high maintenance to keep up appearances.

The Japanese cars aren't quite the "lookers" that the Germans are, but they are reliable and durable in ways, thus far, that seems to have eluded Germany's finest.

Now, one final comment -- I would not hesitate to get another Audi. I do believe they are virtually if not literally as reliable as any of the competition. I also believe they are not even close to being as durable as these Premium Japanese cars are -- the Germans age so quickly and are oh so very expensive to "keep young." I don't know what secret sauce seems to prevent the Japanese cars from aging -- apparently, at least. Yet, it just seems like the old adage, you may have superior performance with high overall maintenance costs or reliability and durability with low overall maintenance costs, but not both.

Here's the thing -- all of these cars (ELLPS) are far more capable performers than most of us are driviers; and, all of these cars (ELLPS) are reliable at least to 50,000 miles. What we seem to be facing -- today, at least -- a choice of driving a great car that dies young or driving a very good car that outlasts your affection for it.

Maybe good really is the enemy of great.

"Whenever an individual or a business decides that success has been attained, progress stops." - Thomas J. Watson of IBM

My TL is a good car, no matter what you say! :P

habitat1 · October 2012

I must inject here that we have had 29 Audis, 3 BMW's and 3 VW's since the late 1970's and only two "Japanese" representatives -- a 2012 Acura TL Advance SH-AWD and a 2011 Infiniti FX35 AWD.

I certainly appreciate and respect your experience, but just how many of these cars have made it past 50-60k miles for you to make your durability judgements?? It appears that you have owned a significant percentage of the Audis sold in the US. And if my math is correct, the 37 vehicles you have owned since the late 70's suggests an average hold period of 2+/- years assuming that you only had 2 in your garage concurrently.

That said, I don't dispute your conclusions. I definitely think the German cars have historically required a lot more "routine maintenance" to keep running up to snuff than the Japanese. I believe that is changing a bit. In both directions. My 2004 Acura TL has gone through 2 sets of brakes (including front rotors) in 65,000 miles (manual transmission = Brembo front brakes). My 1995 Maxima didn't have the front brake pads replaced until it hit 105k miles the rears at 125k miles and never needed rotors replaced when we gave it away at 15 years and 160k miles. By the same token, I believe the Germans have become a little less high maintenance over the past decade or so. My 911 did not call for it's first oil change until 2 years or 20,000 miles :surprise: They don't offer a maintenance plan, so this wasn't some cheapskate way of reducing their costs. Granted, when something breaks out of warranty, you can hand them a limb or two along with your IRA, but compared to the old days, the cars spend more time in your garage than your mechanics.

P.S. Friend of mine back in the early 1980's owned an Audi Coupe. Sexy. I had a Datsun B210 GX at the time. Not sexy. I made him take me to dinner every time I had to drive him from suburban Phili to Wilmington to take his car in or pick it up for service. I put on 10 pounds in about 8 months before he ditched it.

flightnurse · October 2012

Don't really know what you mean when you say that you "never talked numbers at all, just facts". Aren't numbers facts? Kind of cryptic. Lot of apparent opinions flying around here trying to be pawned off as facts though.
I never posted #'s or stated which one was better when I posted the URL,you have taken what was in the video and turned it around like I have made a statement that one was better then other. Now, I did say, that C/D stated that the BMW was the overall winner, in fact, that is why C/D has always picked the 3 series as the winner, because of the over all feel, way it drives. I think you need to re-watch the last part of the video to hear what they say.

Don't know what you mean by "on paper the G should be better".

If you read a posting I posted you would have gotten this. The G's chassis is what Nissan call's the FM platform, where the engine sits behind the front wheels, this like the RX-8 makes for a better handling car, chassis is plenty stiff, RWD, weight in line, manual trans, hefty V6, however, Nissan for what every reason missed the mark on some points. Hopefully the next generation G all the short coming of the current G will be worked out.

flightnurse · October 2012

Put simply, the Germans show their age unless given lots of TLC ($). Mark with 29 cars how many of then did you drive to 50 or 60K? Currently my 2005 330i has no rattles, both doors close with the same solid thud as when it was new. The engine continues to pull to red line without missing a beat. Oil changed every 5K miles, air filter cleaned at 5K, the only out of pocket expense really has been the after market equipment I bought for the car. So really not too sure what you mean by extra TLC? You what to know about TLC, own a British car, my father and I bought a 1957 TR3, NOW that car needed TLC....

plekto · October 2012

Don't forget, though, that this also is a huge plus for Cadillac. Repairs are inexpensive (parts are actually less now than Toyota or Honda!) and they happen fairly infrequently compared to the European makes. Add in pretty decent incentives (incentives from Acura or Lexus??), and it's compelling.

$32K for a CTS (actual price via Truecar on a 2012, which isn't as low as you can negotiate yourself, even) versus $40-45K or more for a 3 series (335i)... It certainly makes you wonder. The smart money is on the CTS and to simply ignore the ATS until you can get one next fall in the 27-28K range after incentives.

As for my father's CTS, in two years it's had zero warranty repairs or issues with it. Nothing squeeks, rattles, or feels any different than the day he bought it. Quite a departure from his previous GM vehicles. You'd swear it was made by Totoya. But the engine is without a doubt made in Germany. It's exactly like having a BMW or Mercedes engine and a body that is made by Totoya - just without their appalling lack of styling.

andys120 · October 2012

Mark, your constant repetition of the erroneous idea that it is financially ruinous to own a German-made car is annoying but keep it up. As long as folks believe it there will be a constant supply of wonderful, lightly used BMWs and Audis for sale for 50% and less of the new price.

This winter, for the third time, I bought a second-hand German car. I got an 80K miles BMW 330ciC for the MSRP cost of a loaded Ford Fiesta. I know from experience that 80K is barely break-in mileage for a Bimmer and I also know that nothing drives as nicely as a good RWD car.

Drive on my friends.

sweendogy · October 2012

One thing they didn't miss was price- so lets factor in that- how much of a mark did it really miss-

Boys price has to be factored in - hello- a 20% markup on a similar car is real money.

habitat1 · October 2012

As for my father's CTS, in two years it's had zero warranty repairs or issues with it. Nothing squeeks, rattles, or feels any different than the day he bought it. Quite a departure from his previous GM vehicles.

Sorry, don't take this personally, but I have to chuckle a bit. First, markincincinnati offers his conclusion that German cars require a lot of TLC after owning 29 Audi's. And now you are ready to proclaim that your dad hit the jackpot with the CTS because it doesn't shake rattle and roll after two years - unlike his previous GM experience.

I'm beginning to think I stumbled upon a forum on self mutilation. Wouldn't most people have said "enough is enough" after maybe 15 Audi's? Or one too many rattle box GM's. But no, let's go back for more abuse and hope that it's different this time around?? I do have to give you guys an A for persistence.

But before you take the report card to McDonalds for a free Happy Meal, you might want to retest the doors of the CTS in another year or two. I know people - similar to Flight's experience - that have 6-8-10 year old BMW's and Mercedes with 100k+ miles that still have the new car look, sound and feel. I'm sorry to appear anti-GM, but I honestly can't say that I know anyone that speaks enthusiastically of how solid their 8 year old ___________ GM still feels.

mjizzles · October 2012

Has anyone had a problem with the center console buttons? When I drive at night, the volume and thermostat buttons do not light up and everything is pitch black? Is there a setting or way to illuminate them?

graphicguy · October 2012

The 7-speed DSG's are also wonderful and in most cases (if you believe the test reports) are able to equal and often better 6-speed manuals.

Mark....I totally agree with your assessment. There was a time that anyone who wouldn't/couldn't drive a manual transmission, in my mind, should not be allowed on public roads, as they didn't really know how to drive.

Now, as you state, as good as auto trans cars have become so good (particularly the 7 sp dual clutch DSG in Audis), that there's little hope that even someone who's really good with a manual trans could possibly out perform it.

Because MPG is becoming more an more paramount, auto transmissions will capture that crown, too.

Generally speaking, today's auto transmissions are simply better than their manual counterparts. I'm good with a manual trans car....I've tracked them both at zutox and 1/4 mile events. So, it takes quite a bit for me to admit those new auto transmissions are better. But, they are.

m6user · October 2012

Wow, that's some real credibility (and loyalty) speaking here

I guess you insinuate that owning an Infiniti for ten years is really not that much credibility but I would counter that never owning one and not even being in a dealership(test drives) in years is much, much less credibility. As far as loyality goes, I would love to have another Infiniti but they just don't make the type and size of vehicle that I now want(not talking about a G here). It has nothing to do with with liking the brand. If they made a vehicle that was very similar to the Acura I just bought then I would have bought it in a heartbeat. Besides I also like to sample different brands from time to time. Never know what you're missing until you try it, right? Are you saying that I should be loyal to brand without fail? That would be pretty stupid IMO. No brands are that good or perfect by any means.

People seem to take marketing and advertising too literally. It's just hype. The only customers who believe the hype and are dissappointed are the naive ones that believe all that crap in the first place. When a company says it is targeting something they are using it as benchmark. They are actually complimenting the known quantity by saying they are trying to be like it in many ways, not a carbon copy. In some ways they succeed and some they don't. BMW is not perfect either and especially is not the right car for many people. I pay cash and keep vehicles for at least 6-10 years. I shy away from cars that need a lot of expensive repairs and maint after the warranty is over because I just don't need the hassle long term. I can afford the repairs but I just don't want to deal with them. If I leased or traded every 3-4 years it would possibly be different.

Congrats on being able to play baseball at your age whatever it is. Didn't quite get the connection to the discussion though unless you're constantly marketing yourself as a great baseball player. Has Infiniti been marketing itself as better than BMW? I don't believe so. They may market the G as an alternative to the BMW and that it is, an alternative....not a copy.

markcincinnati · October 2012

We can all chuckle a bit at folks (like me) who keep buying German cars and finding them the best driving, best performing, most grin inspiring cars ever -- only to find they require so much attention to keep at that level of gratification.

But, there it is, out there for all to at least smile and nod knowingly.

And, as I said, despite our considerable experience and the experiences of others both the pros and amateurs alike regarding the overall durability of these wunderkinds, many of us become hooked on German cars almost as if it is an addiction.

The reason to repeat and repeat and repeat and lust after future repeat acquisitions of these German cars belies their sometimes dismal durability.

I sit here watching an episode of Motor Week wherein the test du jour is of the 2013 Audi S4 and S5. After a totally favorable review, the last sentences goes: "we're not particularly impressed with Audi's reliability; but that wouldn't keep us from parking one in our garage."

The hell of it is, these [German] cars are just the best to drive, but disappointing and expensive to keep much beyond 50K miles.

I know you may think with the amount of turnover we've had in our German's that we "don't know nuttin' about birthin' no babies," however, I assure you that with about 3 dozen of them, our experiences might lend credence to our conclusions. If you've had one or two really reliable Bimmers or Mercs or Audis, great -- give us a full report after about 20 more.

On the other hand, if you, like me, get hooked on the German car experience, feed your habit, you won't regret it assuming you place value on that certain je ne sais quoi only to be had in a German car.

Like I said, my TL is a good car. It isn't exactly marrying material though.

sweendogy · October 2012

Not completely sure but on the nav set up screen there is a settings button that haves various prompts- I know there is an interior light setting function.
I've never had a problem but who knows pu might have a busted dash.
It's a 2012 - just take it back to dealer if you can't figure it out.

habitat1 · October 2012

So what's the range and average of the miles you put on those 29 Audi's?

Are you leasing? Seems like you would have gotten killed with depreciation otherwise.

flightnurse · October 2012

Sweeny have you been reading this forum, for the most part price is not a factor. If it was BMW would be in trouble, which they are not.

There are people who will always be able to afford the A list cars and there will always be those who aspire to own a A list car.

tlong · October 2012

Are you leasing? Seems like you would have gotten killed with depreciation otherwise.

Isn't leasing just paying depreciation as a loan?

Very expensive to buy OR lease a car every few years -- but some people are wealthy, others just don't want to ever retire.

plekto · October 2012

I've owned Mercedes, Toyotas, Volvos (before Ford ruined them), and quite a few other cars. And the CTS is really bolted together and built like the best cars you can get from Japan.

GM basically stole engineers from BMW and Mercedes, so when the engine is built in Germany, well, it really IS built by the best engineers. It's fantastic. And BMWs are also fantastic when it comes to the engines and drive-trains.

BUT... the rest of the car is... problematic. I can drive a 2 year old BMW and the interior is already suffering and the fiddly bits and switches and so on are showing their age rather rapidly. BMW apparently spends everything on how it drives and the rest of it is simply put together like a Kia. GM actually has at least this part down-pat. Their interiors are excellent and in fact, often out-last Toyota and Honda. The rest of their cars in the past was crap, but the interiors were great.

Now, they have a good platform and a good interior. And it won't start crumbling on you at 50 or 80k. You can just look at the first generation CTS for examples of this. And they aren't as well built as the 2nd generation.

You can laugh. All the way to the poor house as you're either leasing forever or paying outrageous repair bills for the most silly things.

The ATS? It really needs a little more time to decide if it's a great car or not. But so far, for a first year model, that it got that close to a 3 series, AND it's not going to suffer from BMW-itis as it ages... BMW's days are numbered at this rate if GM of all companies can make them sweat.

andres3 · October 2012

Has 92,000+ miles and all that's been replaced due to failure or malfunction outside of wear and tear items (like brake pads & rotars and tires) is:

1) AC Compressor
2) Recirculation turbo valve
3) Center console armrest/storage bin LID
4) Rear seat armrest cupholder mechanism
5) Intake Runner Control Module/Motor
6) at 91.5K miles motor mounts (could be considered wore and tore item).

Since Audi stepped up to pay #1, 3, 4, & 5 under warranty (or goodwill extended warranty), I have no issues at all. I'd consider this stellar performance, reliability, and durability.

Probably a bit more problematic than the '03 Accord V6 Coupe, but nowhere close to as bad as the '95 Dodge I had. Not even in the same ballpark.

buya · October 2012

To me, it's not an addiction. Those cars are better in comprehensive view. I drive and own German built cars only, and I thought it would be snobbish to rule out other cars. It's not. It's preference, just like some people like to hear the revving and roaring of their cars, and some prefer the quietness in their sports cars. I'm not particularly fond of MB, and I swore not to consider buying another MB when I sold my last one. It's been over a decade. I'm still driving a MB and admiring the engineering and handling, but I'm not serious about buying MB. My BMW was a reliable car but the style looked old quickly. I haven't bought a BMW for decades. I moved on to other European cars since MB for their curves. I've to say my cars are all very reliable and I adored them all. What's wrong with MB is that they went cheap on material! I haven't seen anything chipped in any other old or older cars except in the 8 years old SL500. Unforgivable!! These cars are all 1-owner well maintained cars, so it's not maintenance issue. It's MB quality control. I had driven a Camry V4 as a loaner from a non-MB dealer when my car was way out of warranty, and I thought that Camry was very nice. It would be for city driving, but don't take it out of town. Toyota cars have issues like other brands, but the repair costs of a Toyota car is not as high as most German cars. A visit to a European dealership for repair or whatnot can easily set you back $2K + change and that could happen a number of times in a month for the same problem. But it's not the same to the dealers of course.

With German cars, durability is not an issue, however, if you can't stand the little annoyances of electronic problems, then you may find reliability to be. Since I'm looking for a sensible car and trying very hard to exclude German cars and other European cars, except VW, Volvo, etc., I test drove a lot of cars that I thought was worthy. Infiniti is cool. Acura SH-AWD are cool. Subaru Flat 4 needs a booster, base Accord 2013 vibrates uncomfortably on city streets, xB is nice, ... So, what's the bottom line? If you're looking for performance of certain type and are used to driving high-end European cars, the best is to stay with the cars you know.

habitat1 · October 2012

I don't know if we live in perpendicular universes, but you are describing a GM with which I am completely unfamiliar. My brother in law - a good hard working union contractor - is professionally prohibited from owning anything other than an American car. He has been through the entire line up of GM "premium" products and after a couple of Iron Cities would admit envy to be able to buy anything German just once before he punches out that final time card and goes to the Union hall in the sky. His experience with Cadillac Escalades has been particularly painful and frustrating.

His Corvette was also a conundrum of "the best of things, the worst of things". Horsepower out the wazu, but the interior was almost unbelievable. The steering wheel looked like it came out of a Malibu. The seats were beyond atrocious with minimal lateral support. Road and Track recently commented that after complaining about the Corvette seats for decades, they decided to improve them themselves by replacing them with milk crates. How the Corvette can be GM's showpiece and have an interior that look like it was put together by a committee of blind fools is beyond me. When I had my 911 and invited my brother in law for a ride, he refused to get out. The union card was dangerously close to being shredded.

GM does make some cheap cars so if you like them and they keep you out of the poorhouse, good for you. My strategy has been to buy quality and keep my cars for 8-10+ years. I have no regrets.

rayainsw · October 2012

I drove a 2007 Corvette Coupe 3LT for over 30,000 miles in 2 years  VERY high mileage for a Vette  and I had no big issues with the seats. Before ordering, I drove both a 1LT and a 3LT ( what I ordered ) back to back on the same morning. I found the Sport Seats ( included in 2LT & 3LT ) both more supportive & more comfortable  as well as more widely adjustable.

For the performance delivered, I believe that the Corvette offers excellent value.

Just my opinion.

- Ray
Current German car = BMW also provides me with excellent value . . .

wireless · October 2012

I have a MB as well as a Chevy Trailblazer and a Toyota Sienna. I like the Chevy the best. My wife drives the MB. Don't care for the Sienna. Last time I was at the Toyota dealership I looked at their cars - the interiors are atrocious. Talk about plastic cheapness! Glad I got my '05 before they shaved every penny.

The MB is nice, a real performance vehicle (C350) everything cool about it. I could go on and extol its virtues.

Personally I like my Chevy TB best. Seats comfortable, interior okay, vehicle is tough, it just feels right. If I were buying a new car right now I'd be in the market for one of the US big three (if we can still include Chrysler in that designation).

graphicguy · October 2012

Mark....good summation. I loved reading Bob Lutz's book about his days with GM. It was quote eye opening and gave a very clear view why GM had the poor reputation that they've endured over the last few decades (can't believe I just said decades, but there it is).

They never really set out to build better cars. They set out to just build ones that they coule drive out cost...in engineering, materials, build, etc. The result is what we see today. They keep claiming they're getting better. But, it's hard to see where that is the case. And, it won't be until they change their culture.

Since the ATS was brought up here, look at what the trade rags say about Cadillac's "CUE" system. Yes....Cadillac can say they have "tech" like the other manufacturers. But, it's so poorly implemented that it's rendered practically unusable.

This attitude vs the Japanese or German manufacturers is what denigrates U.S. car companies the most (although, most Ford vehicles I've been in for rentals seem quite competitive).

GM can't hit the BMW or Audi in handling without making the ride harsh. Same can be said for Infiniti. Acura seems to do a decent job, once you understand you're going to suffer some torque steer with FWD bias.

Audi and BMW spend money to use better materials for their suspensions. It shows when you drive one. Even the Cadillac CTS I drove (again as a rental), as good is it purported to be, couldn't match the solidity of my BMW's doors when they shut. And, this was a Cadillac with less than 3K miles on it.

Hell......BMW actually has a dept that studies and chooses the most pleasant bells/buzzes to use when a door is ajar. Think GM would spend money for that?

I haven't driven a Lincoln in a long time, so I don't know how they compare. The last Chrysler 300 I drove (previous gen) wasn't all that impressive...especially from a build and material quality perspective.

How long with my BMW last? Or, my GF's S4? I really don't know. The BMW is only coming up on its 2 year birthday. It's as solid now, and probably performs better than the day it came off the dealer's lot. The S4 seems to be in the same category.

Only time will tell.

As Mark says, as good as the TL SH AWD is, she wasn't the marrying type.

habitat1 · October 2012

Let me add to your comments another perspective which I gained from my recent trip to Spartanburg and tour of the BMW X3/X5/X6 factory.

American workers can build great vehicles. They do it there every day in Spartanburg. From what I could see, they are hard working, passionate, proud, and happy as heck to have a decent paying job with good benefits. But BMW is not hamstrung in South Carolina like GM is in Detroit or Flint with the UAW fighting them tooth and nail every step of the way.

The unions are not fully to blame for the demise of GM, Ford And Chrysler. But they have a big share of responsibility in the "culture" of mediocrity as you put it. And the counterproductive work rules that constantly create a management vs. labor battle are not doing any of us potential customers a damn bit of good.

I wasn't allowed to bring a camera into the BMW factory. But if I could have, I could post 50 pictures of a factory floor clean enough to eat off of, robots doing the jobs that made engineering sense to turn over to precise machinery, assembly line workers busting their humps to do the jobs that required human dexterity, visual inspection and care. And the best pictures would have been of several of those workers looking up and giving me the thumbs up as we passed by their stations. I recieved at least a half dozen "thank you's" for having bought a X5d. Made me proud to have "bought American".

graphicguy · October 2012

habitat....for a couple of years, when I first graduated college, I worked for GM (Fisher Body Plant outside of Cincinnati). I was doing coding for some very rudimentary robotics machines. I was salary. But, some of the same people I went to college with, left their "degreed jobs" to work for GM as an hourly employee at this same plant because they out earned me by as much as 40% (overtime).

Because of wildcat strikes, work slowdowns, unreliability of those rudimentary "robots" I was coding for, I made the leap to hourly work, too.

You're dead on in describing the ever present friction between the UAW and Management. I saw it from both sides, since I had worked both sides of that aisle. I saw foreman verbally abuse hourly workers (to the point of being as abusive as I've seen two humans could possibly be). In turn, I saw hourly workers sabotage machinery and ruin body parts (which were eventually shipped to an assembly plant) to retaliate.

This was in the '80s. And, that plant eventually closed down. I know there was a lot of bitterness at that particular plant. Don't know if that exists today, or not. It certainly wasn't conducive to quality car building. And, GM wasn't all that concerned about quality. They were quite focused on quantity, though. Again, something that shows in their products.

By contrast, I have toured Honda's plant in Marysville, OH, and the Subaru plant in IN. As you describe Spartanburg, these plants were clearly as clean as a pin. And, there is a spirit of cooperation, not distrust, disinterest, and uncooperativeness.

I firmly believe that's why Toyota's, Hondas, Audis and as you point out, BMW enjoys the reputation for engineering superiority, build and material quality they do. They design better products, they make better products, because they plan to. And they make certain anyone who works for/with them do, too.

I heard someone make apoint on one of the radio auto shows a while back that the reason German cars are expensive to keep is because there aren't enough mechanics around who are willing enough to understand how the cars are built and engineered. So, the dealerships get to charge whatever they want.

m6user · October 2012

Since Audi stepped up to pay #1, 3, 4, & 5 under warranty (or goodwill extended warranty), I have no issues at all. I'd consider this stellar performance, reliability, and durability.

I think part of the disagreement on reliability is due to perspective. I had a car for 13 years that I ended up giving to kars for kids. I loved that car which was one of the reasons I kept it so long. I always considered it a reliable car because, after all, I was never stranded nor did it ever need to be towed. However, after donating it I went through the maint folder I kept on it and soon realized something surprizing, that car had a lot of repairs and I put a lot of time and money into it because of those repairs. It would have made your list seem short in comparison.

That said, based on my experience over the last ten years, you list looks very less than "stellar" from my perspective. I just traded a 2002 Infiniti with 98k in that only needed two actual repairs during it's lifetime with me. A power antenna(which I didn't fix and traded in like that) and and an inexpensive exhaust pipe repair a couple of years ago. So, you call your experience with your Audi stellar and I would not agree. To me that's a lot of repairs including some things that should last the life of the car without a problem.

My whole point is not to put down any brand but to explain that our love for our vehicles can sometimes make us blind to the obvious compared to someone else looking at the same picture.

flightnurse · October 2012

I loved reading Bob Lutz's book about his days with GM

Bob Lutz was the problem at GM. He billed himself as being the performance guy, but wasn't.

flightnurse · October 2012

The unions are not fully to blame for the demise of GM, Ford And Chrysler. But they have a big share of responsibility in the "culture" of mediocrity as you put it.

Habit if you could place the blame on a scale (0-10), where would you place the auto workers blame? An 8? Last year when the Fox New channel in Detroit caught those Chrysler workers drinking and smoking pot on their lunch breaks, this was not something that just started, as you stated it was part of the culture, the attitude was,we have a union so we wont get fired. The culture for many years at the Big 3 was "who cares" granted this attitude came from the top down. Now to turn things around from "Who Cares" to "We Care" takes times, usually between 5-7 years to change the culture at a large corporation, Ford has done it I believe 2013 will the year in which you see a whole different company. Chrysler was beyond help, and the Government knew it, that is why they were looking for someone to buy them, however, in the short amount of time, a turn around has happened, I can tell you this, the new Generation 300 is light years ahead from before, the materiel's are better, and the fit and finish is first rate. Does Chrysler has work to do to shake off its' bad image, yup, but they are working in the right directions. GM, has work to do, but they have started, I have rented a couple of Chevy Cruze's and was impressed with how it was put together, the new Malibu is a step forward and the new Impala too. I'm looking forward to driving them.

American's can build great cars, but the workers have to want to, it is that simple, the workers for BMW, VW, Nissan are well taken care of, have great benefits and they are happy, that is the key to a successful workforce.

dino001 · October 2012

Lutz was a classic Detroit's executive. Full of excuses and self satisfaction. I ultimately blame the management for the failure, much more than the unions (75%-25%), just because those guys were paid to be in charge and, if all else failed, they should have busted the militant union gangsters - but they chose easy solutions and collected nice bonus for doing nothing.

What did we hear instead? Lutz said "we did not have enough cash in the bank to withstand a strike and the union had strike fund for longer than our cash". And whose fault is that? You know it's a war, the other side made it clear, they won't relent. If so, you get the guns and ammunition for a siege, bonuses come after you win the war, not when you sign a capitulation.

andres3 · October 2012

I always considered it a reliable car because, after all, I was never stranded nor did it ever need to be towed. However, after donating it I went through the maint folder I kept on it and soon realized something surprizing, that car had a lot of repairs and I put a lot of time and money into it because of those repairs. It would have made your list seem short in comparison.

Well which is it, is my list long or short? :P

I consider my list short and insignificant because several of the items are very low cost / low labor fixes. Some of them are really things I was just nitpicky about (like the lid to the storage bin and the rear cupholders which are never used anyway). None of these issues stranded me or required a tow truck. That is a big deal. My '95 Dodge required 4 tow truck trips in 65K miles. The Audi has gone 92K with none; that's stellar in my book.

The Honda went 65K without a single tow truck trip as well, then I sold it. It did however, require a new transmission at 42K (covered by Honda in goodwill). But at least it was able to limp into the dealership on it's own power.

Both the Honda and Audi were extremely well built high quality cars, and it showed. The Dodge was poorly built and engineered, and it showed (4 tow trucks afterall). Goodwill when something did UNEXPECTEDLY go wrong, very present with both Honda and Audi. Goodwill from Dodge or Chrysler when stuff did go EXPECTEDLY wrong??; non-existent!

That makes a huge difference! Yes, liking the car makes a big difference, but having the breakdowns covered by the manufacturer (sometimes requiring them to STEP UP TO THE PLATE), makes an even BIGGER difference in your perceptions. Not requiring tow trucks helps a lot too. Also, it's important to put the severity of the issues in perspective as well (as you can easily have 6 minor repairs cost less than 1 major one).

Out of my own personal 3 cars so far in my lifetime, only one has had the AC last longer than 53K miles, and that's the Honda.

Only one has had the transmission last longer than 60K miles, and that's the Audi.

Also, take into consideration I actually drive my cars. I drive them hard and expect a lot out of them. The Audi has been driven the hardest by far (easily by 500%). None of the others faced this, the Audi inspired me to take it out on spirited weekend backroad country canyon carving drives, an autocross event or two, and have tracked it 5 or 6 weekends.

The Honda or Dodge never inspired me to drive for the sake of driving. The Audi awoke the enthusiast within me.

laurasdada · October 2012

I drive a British car, with only 5 months of warranty left...

flightnurse · October 2012

Which British car do you drive, I would like to hear your experience with it.

billyperksii · October 2012

"As Mark says, as good as the TL SH AWD is, she wasn't the marrying type."

Hey watch what you are saying about my wife- been married 3 years now without any pre-nups.

laurasdada · October 2012

'09 Jaguar XK Coupe. Beautiful, great ride/handling balance, powerful, relatively economical and seats 4! Ahem...

Approaching 32k miles, three warranty issues (anything electrical related expected, no surprise. The Prince of Darkness followed Jag to Ford):

Replaced Audio Control Module to fix disappearing AM radio (at the time, needed AM to listen to the Sox games. Hindsight, shoulda just left it offline.)
Replaced Nav System. Almost everytime I entered an address, the system would reboot. Other than that, worked fine.

Replace/repair the AC outflow tube. Too close to the exhaust, melted shut. Passenger footwell filled with condensation on a road trip. Good one, Jaguar!

The two electrical fixes were plug and play module replacements, no biggie. The AC fix, I saw the Jag in the shop, not a pretty site. But, I found out later, there was a TSB, all is well now. Loaner car was Land Rover LR2, which was good to experience. Now I know I will never buy a LR2. I had hoped for an XF or XJ, but alas, no. (When my TL was in for service, I always asked for the loaner NSX. But, wouldn't you know, every time they had just loaned it out before I got there!)

No issues since. I'm a sucker for leather and wood and I'm surrounded by it. Bowers and Wilkins audio, just lovely. And, the exhaust note:

. The touch screen? Slow, clunky, gen 1.0. Luckily some redundant controls on the center stack and (heated, new favorite option) steering wheel. You get used to it.

As I consider myself more of a GT guy than a true sports car guy (as of this writing), this car is near perfect for me. Except for the pesky don't go in snow thing...

Went to the Jag Drive Alive experience, what a good time! Open to all, free. Nothing but R models of the XF, XJ and actually XKR-S in all it's 550hp glory. You get to drive each and every one, the XKR-S on a drag strip. Oh, my goodness. Swag, food, a bunch of professional drivers riding shotgun and followed up a few weeks later with a coupon good for up to $5k off a Jag. Holding out for an F-Type coupe.

Love the car, father's friend had a red E-type convertible back in the late '60s, never forgot it. Of course, my kids don't like the XK, because, well, I spent their tuiton money on it. :shades: Kidding of course. Emptied my 401k!

BTW, traded an '05 Acura TL for the Jag. Loved the TL, 6.5 years, 85k miles not an issue to report. Like the Jag, handsome, nicely appointed, great ride/handling balance, really seats 4 or more! And, not fabulous in the snow. I chose the TL over the Infiniti G back in '05 as the TL was just more refined, more GT to me. Too each, you can argue all you want about which car is better/better built/more reliable/fun etc. But until you put your $ down, it's all talk. Fun, interesting talk (when friendly).

I've owned Japanese, European and even a domestic (Chrylser! 300M. Enjoyed it). Japanese easily most set it and forget it. But, the Saab, BMW and Jag ain't been too bad. Although the Bimmer is only a year old... Even the 300M had no out of warranty issues. But, at 67k miles, I wasn't taking chances and traded it for the TL.

The Jag? Just a special piece of aluminum, wood and leather. Well done. But, where do I go from here?

flightnurse · October 2012

Thanks for the write up dada... I have always like Jag's like you the E type, but mine was with the V12... Here in PHX, we have one Jag dealer, and it belongs to the Penske Autogroup, they have a concierge service, when you walk in (not too if other Jag dealers have it. But on a flight last week, my seatmate was in Charge of concierge service at all of the Penske dealerships in PHX, we talked. She been employed with them now 12 years, she tells me that the complaints have gone down with the newer generation of Jag's, which is a good thing. Who knows, in 10 years I might want one..

flightnurse · October 2012

Guess what, I don't think Infiniti is trying to clone a BMW 3

I'll have to disagree with you on this. Here is what Road and Track wrote in the first paragraph of their article/comparison of the ATS and 3 series.

The BMW 3 Series isn't just a car. As my cohort Jonny Lieberman likes to say, the 3 Series is a segment. Now, this isn't an attempt to stoke BMW's ego, or, as many of our readers would assume, bias towards the Bavarian brand. It's just the simple truth: When an automaker chooses to compete in the luxury sports sedan segment, it's benchmarking the 3 Series. No BMW has consistently won Motor Trend comparison tests like the 3 Series has, and for good reason. The 3 Series has come to define BMW's Ultimate Driving Machine mantra and embodies the purest qualities BMW stands for as a brand.

R&T said it best, if you are going to build a sport sedan, than you are going to be compared to a 3 series. I do not remember reading that Infiniti was not trying to build their version of a 3 series.

We all know that over the years, the 3 series hasn't lived up to its reputation, however, it continues to be picked over the others., first C&D and now R&T have picked the 3 series as a winner, as I stated before, if GM can fix the short comings of the ATS, they have the best shot of taking the win from BMW.

m6user · October 2012

Can't say that I am shocked by the disagreement. You just don't get it. I already mentioned that Infiniti was benchmarking the 3 and that it was a compliment to BMW. Benchmarking is not necessarily an attempt to copy but to strive for similar(not exactly the same) results. Nobody is saying any car is overall better than the 3 in this segment. Just saying there are viable competitors that may be better for some people that don't need the epitome of driving dynamics and care more about other things. If Infiniti was trying to clone a 328 which is what it was price competitive with they could have given it 240hp instead of 325hp and called it a day. They chose a different route. Does a car have to be a clone of something else to compete in this category. Not everyone wants a BMW...plain and simple. I just wrote a check for 40k for a new Acura. I could just have well written one for a BMW or even more. But I really don't want one. I have nothing against BMW....it's the owners that are obnoxious sometimes.

I do not remember reading that Infiniti was not trying to build their version of a 3 series.

Kind of hard to prove a negative now isn't it? Do you also not remember them saying they were?

sweendogy · October 2012

My prev post was deleted.

So

+1

cdnpinhead · October 2012

I recieved at least a half dozen "thank you's" for having bought a X5d. Made me proud to have "bought American".

Interesting post. Thanks.

My experience has been that most people like to do good work. They just need to be shown how and then left alone to do it.

andres3 · October 2012

My experience has been that most people like to do good work. They just need to be shown how and then left alone to do it.

I would like to think that's true, but it seems it's an epidemic of lazy people who have or take no pride in their own work.

Or maybe the Big 3 hired all of those people and the rest of the labor force is as you say!

tlong · October 2012

Andres, I had a '98 A4 and I kept it for 88K miles. It wasn't a disaster but it wasn't fabulous, either. The radio volume acted up. The sunroof track cracked and was replaced under warranty. The worst problem was the cooling problem where the temp would start moving way up while climbing hills on a hot day. Many visits to the dealer on my dime while they tried the fan clutch, the thermostat, the radiator, etc. Over $1K on repairs and still not really fixed.

Yet I LOVED that car for its interior and its driving. I now own an '05 TL and yet I still miss the Audi. But let me tell you that at 128K on the TL, my only repairs were a OAT temp sensor recall and replacing a couple of door handle trims that fell off. Oh, and the right window regulator sometimes sticks. That's it. So I wouldn't call your Audi experience all that good, certainly not against the best of the Japanese brands.

But I totally get the commitment to the German cars. When I own German I wish I had Japanese reliability. When I own Japanese I miss the German experience.

Sigh.

graphicguy · October 2012

Maybe the auto crisis during the recession turned GM around once and for all. Maybe the new Cadillacs really are world class cars, with world class build, materials and performance. Only time will tell. But, given past history, it's not like we haven't heard this story before.

At the end of the day, both management and the UAW have to cooperate. If not, you end up with more Azteks than CTSs.

Personally, I'm anxious to see the new TL, if/when it is released. The news that trickles out seems to point to a gas/electric built for performance.

Until then, we're really enjoying our German rides.

Speaking of Jags......my sister has an S-Type that has to be close to 10 years old. Not a single blip. She's looking at replacing it with an XF.

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