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Comments
You need to read more carefully. I did not say you can get the BMW 325i with the Premium Package for $3K more. Read again. You only need the base car with the options I list.
One thing about BMW is they have one of the best a-la-carte option choices.
In the fall, I priced out many 3 Series with auto, moonroof, leatherette for about $30.6K. At the time, dealers were discounting. Not that much but they were discounting.
How can they not when they offer leasing deals at $299/month.
However, the S40 without premium, but with the moonroof is $26K - again the difference is about 20%.
I had the same dilemma between 525 and S80 four years ago, and S80 won because, with the exception of slightly better handling, I have gotten much more car (in every other respect) for my money. And I am not too much of aggressive driver to worry about RWD been superior in the cornering. On other side - FWD is safer in most driving conditions by definition,
Look to the Volvo OSD program, anything you want is sold a la cart.
BMW has nice OSD program too. But my next car is XC90 and BMW build their SUV locally. So - no luck there.
I would not fight the obvious - Volvo is well aware of the BMW pricing and place their cars just enough bellow the price of the direct competitor that this price difference is obvious to the open-minded buyer.
So is that why the RWD 325i has DSC std while the FWD S40 doesn't?
The N.A. S40's lack of available charcoal filter alone will sway me to the 325i. But for me, I need to modify the 325i's driver seat in order to match the S40's. BMW realized the need to raise the cushion thigh angle in order to provide an acceptable driving position even for me -- a 5'11" guy -- but they took care of it since '03 by upgrading this feature only on the pwr seats(still the same $995 option, wow!). The sports seats got it plus cushion extension even w/o the pwr feature, but requires the lowered sport suspension/wheels together that cost both $1400 & ride comfort. Only the AWD models don't come w/ the sport suspension, but I don't want the AWD bulk in S California.
So if I'm getting the 325i, then I would only add about $2k & install one Euro-spec manual cloth sport seat w/ POWER 4-way lumbar(something to beat the S40's 2-way lumbar). This comes to total of $31k, & I might also want the $700 bi-xenon.
You're too much into the Focus relation. The Focus in Europe is leagues different than the Focus in the U.S., both it's quality and market placement, and the car is built on the German model, not the American one.
The s40 should feel like an upgrade of the old s40 and more like a *real Volvo* design. It's quality should be close to the Passat, that's where it is priced, not a BMW 3 series or Mercedes C car. Volvo makes simpler interiors overall than other marques, the s40 is consistent with that. The s60 different inside than other European marques, much less eye candy, but well built and detailed, yet some have called it cheap looking. Expect a less is more approach from Volvo, and I think better ergonomics than the poor i-drive and COMAND systems from the German marques and unneeeded complexity. Volvo is going with a more streamlined approach.
1st: a Swedish car, not a German car. There's a difference in the feel of a Volvo vs. a German car.
2nd: Volvo is almost always less expensive than BMW
3rd: FWD, not RWD biased
4th: different handling philosophies, different ride qualities though both are European
People who want BMWs enjoy tight body construction, very little compromised in handling, controlled handling ride quality, and
strong dynamic qualities. For some there still is something of a "cold" quality to it and a firmish ride. And BMWs are not known for being good in the snow.
Volvo fans like their seat comfort, strong body construction, respectable handling, commitment to crashworthiness (though I think BMWs are the same as Volvo in crashworthiness), and a certain relaxed, massaging, highway glide that defines the marque. For some the cars are plain for the money, don't offer the level of handling and dynamic qualities of other European marqes and some Japanese marques, expensive.
Volvo should be compared to Saab, Acura, and similarly placed cars. I think BMW, Mercedes, Audi are in a different rung. The first two are RWDs and AWDs and Audi's are AWDs where Volvo is mostl FWDs with some AWDs with a FWD bias.
Thanks for clearing that up...
I am just looking at all options before I make a move. But, for what I'm looking for in both cars I only see about a $3K to $4K difference in an S40 and 325i. To me, that's not enough.
That doesn't mean I'm going to buy a 325i. I may look at other cars...some for a second try like the TSX.
Go Here: http://www.volvocars.us/FinancialServices/Overseas/
I don't think the new S40 is in the program yet.
MB and BMW ship all of their OSD cars to the central delivery centers in Sindelfingen and Munich, respectively, generally no matter where in EU the car is actually produced.
The only exception I know is 2004 S40 that is discounted up to $7000 - 8000 off MSRP by some of the dealers in LA area.
The OSD discount is usually around 10% of total price (MSRP).
Once again, my personal data -
I have bought 2000 S80 2.9 for $34, 950 (MSRP just over $39K back then)and I just have ordered XC 90 2.5T for $40,165 (MSRP around $44.3 - 44.5) I can not compare them directly as some of the single options available through OSD are part of the package only here (heated seats) or are not available at all (speed sensitive steering on 2.5T). My savings were about 12% then and about 10% now.
And two round trip tickets to Europe and savings of driving your own car, while you on vacation is a nice touch.
Volvo have multiple delivery points through out the Europe, so I think they will ship you car to the delivery point of your choice for some nominal fee.
I personally take delivery in Gothenburg.
1. Both cars are built there, and it's free.
2. The Factory Tour is very entertaining.
I have enjoyed it four years ago and want to bring my kids there this time around.
I found the best powertrain combination was the 2.4 with manual transmission. The power delivery was much more linear than the T5, and the engine/exhaust note was more mature and refined compared to the manic tone of the T5. The T5's sport suspention makes the car much more nimble than the standard setup, and it seemed to communicate fewer road irregularities into the passenger cabin. I was truly suprised how the sport suspention could improve handling AND improve overall ride quality.
I was expecting better from the Geartronic cars. The 2.4i with g'tronic was acceptable, although the absence of low RPM power could make it a handful in stop and go traffic. The T5 was truly awful, though in full auto mode. The turbo lag is similar to that in a tiptronic 1.8T Passat, abysmal. At one point in the "joy of driving" course. The tranny got confused after I slowed to enter a turn and accelerated to exit the turn. The motor revved to redline before crashing into gear in a manner that made the entire car shudder. It was scary. I hope this can be attributed to the less than gentle treatment it has received at the All Access drive events.
I'm 6'1" and easily found a comfortable driving position. The controls are typical Volvo, not intuitive, but easy after you read the owner's manual. The ergonomics are superb as is the Premium sound system.
There has been a lot of comparison of the S40 to the Acura, Audi and BMW. While I don't think the S40 is superior to these cars, I think it is the best overall package. For those looking for a fun, safe, stylish and unassuming vehicle, the S40/V50 are super.
Did any of you read the review of the VW R32 in Car and Driver?
Apparently, the AWD system adds so much heft that the R32 is only about as fast as a Golf/GTI 1.8 turbo(estimated). The R32 has 240 hp. The 1.8T has 180 hp.
I hope the AWD S40 doesn't suffer from the same problem. Isn't the future AWD system in the S40 very similar to VW's?
2. If the new S40 isn't eligible until August there is a chance that Volvo will be offering rebates like they always do. From what you are saying you cannot combine OSD prices with other discounts. So, by the time August rolls around the OSD may be a moot.
3. It looks like Volvo only pays for one night hotel. Do you have to stay there for a certain period ?
4. Do you get to watch the factory workers like a hawk while they work on your car
5. I remember I have the Ford X-Plan discount. Is this worth anything or is it negligible ?
I was at the same session and I had the same thing happen. I slowed entering the 180 turn towards the end and upon accelerating I felt the tranny finally slam itself into the lower gear. That suprised me.
camina - I'm no OSD expert but many times if Volvo is offering rebates in the US they will sweeten the OSD deal with side trips to compensate.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
They do not have to pay an import tarriff which saves them 10-15% right off the top. They also do not pay a dealer holdback fee to the dealer. That's another 3% or so. It would not suprise me if Volvo made a greater profit on OSD cars compared to regular cars it imports to US dealers.
Voilvo does not have a minimum stay, but they only pay for 1 night's hotel, and they require a Saturday stayover. Their travel packages are reasonably priced and include most meals, so they make planning an extended trip VERY easy.
A particular dealer over there who sort of sponsor's it doesn't exactly say "come in and negotiate," but he doesn't deny that it can be done, either. At least, that's what I've seen.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
You can use wheelspin on the FWD 1.8T to obtain a quick 0-60 time, while the AWD grips too much too allow much of that. That probably explains it.
-juice
It's not BMWs that I'm tired of. They are fine cars and maybe too popular, but Volvos are extremely popular and ubiquitous in surburban neighborhoods. It's more the comparisons to them.
BMWs are sporting vehicles. They've been set up that way for years. Other companies have different types of vehicles and people buy vehicles for different reasons. I think Volvo should be considered in context of Volvo--premium European family cars. Volvos are more grand touring cars, and they've been for years, and though the new s40 is going to handle well and be entertaining, it will within a Volvo context. Volvo tunes their cars to be reasonably taut at higher speeds but there's some (relative) softness in their springs at lower speeds. People usually don't buy Volvos to carve out mountain roads, and that's where most car magazines put, I think, too much emphasis. They buy Volvos for all day comfort and long trips, the AWD's for foul weather, emphasis on safety, and a certain level of refinement. Those looking for sharp handling (those that can recognize it, which aren't most drivers) have to shop elsewhere. I think Volvo is out of their depth a bit when producing cars like the R's, because they'll never feel like the better Europeans, and Volvo tries for suspension trickery to make them feel that way, rather than feeling intuitively how to make cars feel eager to turn in (making them act "odd" in certain situations and overall not feeling quite "right"). Volvos can corner, but they really feel like they want to cruise, that's the feeling I get when I'm in a Volvo. The more glued-to-the-ground and more direct feeling Germans and some of the Japanese cars feel eager to turn in, but somehow don't feel as peaceful cruising, there's a different "energy" to them.
So, in terms of comparison, I think people have to put in order of their priorities what they want in the car, not what the car mags or enthusiasts look for. I think people's idea of a smooth ride differs from car magazine's or those set on driving hard (some of the regulars posting in car forums). Many people I know find BMWs ride firm or composed, or tight, not "supple" as the magazines tend to say. While not jarring there is a strong sense of the road, a kind of "macho" way of going over large irregularities rather than a "gentle" way. At least in the sportier BMWs, I guess the others are softened somewhat, but still have a certain level of firmness due to their spring stiffness.
I think the s40s should stay in the Saab, Acura and the like comparison, though both of those marques are known for more sporting cars than Volvo. Some Volvos can be compared to Mercedes/BMW, but the cars should be seen for their own strengths. Overall the BMW is a better car usually than the Volvo, more expensively engineered, more sophisticated. But that doesn't necessarily translate to the nicer or more desirable car for what a particular owner may be looking for--if it isn't driving hard around twisties and braking late. Volvo does OK as a poor man's Mercedes, but again the German car feel vs. the Swedish car feel is at play and the German is usually more expensive for similar trim/power/options levels.
Summing up, for the enthusiast: you can get a Volvo you enjoy, but it will be compromised for Volvo attributes.
if you find another that maybe says the opposite, let me know what i can search for to get it. thanks.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I could not see any reason for the dealer to negotiate.
1. You do not buy a car from the dealer, you buy a car from Volvo of NA, just like a dealer. Your sales contract is with the VNA. Upon delivery you get a Certificate of Origin, same paperwork as a dealer.
2. Dealer gets a fee for filling the paperwork, I've heard - $300. I would not believe that the dealer will have any reasons to cut into this fee.
3. The OSD price is published on the Volvo web site and equal to the dealer's invoice for the base and MSRP for the options. Once again, could not see any reason for the dealer to subsidize your purchase and share the cost of the car with you. After all, you pay to the VNA not to the dealer.
I could also think of couple of other benefits for Volvo to promote OSD
1. Dealer pays terms, some times long ones (120 - 180 days). You pay up-front, a month prior to the delivery. Big savings right there.
2. Volvo brings tourists to Sweden and is getting some tax relieves for that from the government.
And even when S40/V50 will be eligible for the OSD they might not be discounted at first.
For instance, XC90 was eligible for the OSD since April of 2003, but the "special" OSD price was published only in November of 2003. So it was sold at MSRP even through the OSD.
X-plan works, but once the OSD discount is available, it's negligible. Once again, for the XC90 the X-plan gives you about $1500.00 off MSRP, while with OSD you can save up to $4000-4500 for the same car.
One night free stay applies only to the Factory delivery in Gothenburg, but you can pick you car in more than a dozen of different major cities in Europe.
No, you do not get to see your car to be built. It will be waiting for you and delivered to you prior to the Factory tour, but the tour is very entertaining. The Volvo assembly line is different from American ones.
The dealer recieves a fee from Volvo, and credit for a car sale against our objectives.
None of the rebates, special financing, or AZX plan incentives are allowed.
OSD is not always the cheapest way to buy a Volvo, but it does offer a memorable experience.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Some banks will finance the purchase order directly.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Dealers seldom are self-financing. It's not their business. They use bigger lenders and get some commissions of the loan.
In my experience of purchasing a couple of dozens of new cars (I had volunteered for the role of car buyer in my extended family of immigrants, and for some of my friends), the financing is the easiest part of negotiation. Once you have mentioned your own lender, it's usually over. Sometimes, though, there are very inexpensive financing programs, sponsored by the car manufacturer, than you go with it. For instance, I have bought a couple of Nissans with 0% financing from Nissan through the dealer.
Dealer does not make enough off the loan to negotiate hard.
The extended warranty is a totally different story...
I thought only imported 2-dr trucks get it.
How do you get around the import tarrif with OSD ?
Between the X-Plan, OSD, and possible rebates or specials I have some options. Either way, I will wait.
I think if I can get a base engine car with the Premium Package ($27.1K) for under $25K I would buy one. I know it's comparing apples and oranges with the 325i, but in terms of getting the biggest bang for my buck I need to have more price separation between the S40 and 325i.
I'm not set on one particular handling style just as long as it is a true sports sedan. When I drove the S60 I noticed a difference especially the wider turning radius and didn't feel it was exactly what I was looking for but I love the looks of it.
I have looked at all of the cars in the luxury sports sedan class and could go either way but nothing has stood out in terms of value.
My priorities are style, quality, safety, and then performance. Of course, gas consumption is important too. So, the S40 seems to fit my profile.
I am a little concerned that the S40 is a new model car and the possible bugs it will have. When you consider I drive a 15 year old 325 with 127hp, anything out there has better performance than what I have now.
I am living in Canada, and I am considering whether I should choose TSX, 320i or the coming S40.
I have read so much about TSX in this forum, but I am more concern about the safety and future maintenance costs. Can someone please comment on that?...Thanks a lot.
I am planning to drive my next car for about 6 to 7 years, so this is a very important investment for me. I heard there are so many problems in volvos after the warranty period, so it kind of worry me a bit.
We don't have the 320 here in the states, but, if we did, I wouldn't touch it. I'm personally not interested in something with that little power.
Between the base S40 and the TSX, its a tough call. But, I haven't driven either, so that I'm sure that would make up my mind for me. Have you tried them? In any case, all else being equal, I'd pick the TSX for its anticipated strong resale value alone. So the S40 would have to outshine it quite a bit on the road in my book.
BUT, if its between the S40 T5 and the TSX, I think the contest won't be as close.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I also thought I read on the Volvo website that they there is no reduction in import fees/tariffs for OSD vehicles, the savings for them comes from cutting out Volvo NA. (And I believe they also get incentives from the govt for promoting travel.) Not to mention the tremendous owner loyalty created by the program.
Also, while Volvo says OSD pricing is not negotiable, I know of at least one buyer on volvoxc.com who successfully negotiated a better OSD price. His explanation was that essentially Volvo gives the dealer a set amount of money for selling a car OSD. If they choose to cut into that money to make the sale, so be it.
And while I would heartily recommend OSD, at the end of the model year when rebates are highest (especially on cars like the S60), you can many times negotiate a better deal off the lot versus the published OSD prices. However, on cars like the new S40 or the XC90, OSD is definitely your best choice right now. And OSD is also many times the only way to order the specific combination of options you want, as dealers tend to order the cars equipped one way. (For instance, they never seem to order the AWD cars with DSTC!)
I've also noticed that is you're willing to travel to Sweden over the winter, many times you can get bonuses like the premium package at no cost
The savings to the customer results from buying directly from Volvo Cars of Sweden.
Normally, Volvo Cars sells their products to the importer Volvo Cars North America for a profit.
VCNA marks the cars up to the dealers, who in turn have their own markup.
Volvo Sweden needs 3 months on average to build a custom car for OSD, then figure 1.5-2 months to have it shipped to the US after you've driven it in Europe.
Many banks and VFNA will finance the car, some banks and Credit Unions won't.
Most of our OSD customers pay cash.
I have driven both and both are nice. When I looked at the TSX they would not discount. I hear they still don't.
My policy is I don't pay sticker price for cars. So, I walked away and will continue walking until they discount. No car is that important to me that I pay sticker including the S40.
The feeling of others and myself is the TSX at $26.9K loaded is a lot for a 4 cylinder. I don't think I have ever seen one on the road.
I'm the same way. I keep my cars for a while so quality is a concern. My 15 year old 325 has 250K miles and could go another 250K but I have paid a lot in maintanance over the years.
I'm going to wait for reliability data to come in on the S40 and for discounts to be offered before I pull the trigger. I'm not going to pay top dollar and then be used for a science experiment.
Last night we test drove the 325i w/ std suspension, & one comment from one of us is "the TSX is a junky car!" In case you wonder why isn't the TSX w/ sporty-suspension & 17"s satisfying us while the lower-limit-handling 325i w/ the std soft-suspension does. Well, the TSX's steering that can't let you feel the tire grip just can't built enough confidence for MOST drivers, so they never bothered to approach near its handling limit! Plus the std 325i rides whole lot cushier. Even in routine handling, the 325i seems to let the driver go however he likes more intuitively.
So we ordered one to be built in May w/ memory seating & the no-cost SULEV to keep the environment clean! Since only Germany builds the SULEV version, I guess this is the reward for protecting the environment. Otherwise, all the 325i's on the lot are assembled in S Africa w/ transmission from France.
Leasing at $2825 drive off including $350 security deposit + 35 more payments of $299/mo at 10k mi/yr.
So can anyone estimate how much does the new S40 depreciate over the next 3 yrs?
Sure the TSX will last forever w/o costly repairs, but we'll have to ask the 16-yr old in the family to take over this "left over" car -- the "abandoned child" in no time! ;-)
I checked out the BMWCA.com before. It seems that the 320i costs only slightly less than the 325i when similarly equipped after you add the DSC, auto climate control w/ charcoal, etc. The 330i does cost way more than the 325i when similarly equipped. The reason is simple. All 3 6-cyl engines cost about the same to build, but they black mail you for the torquy 3.0 that saves gas. So the 2.2 320i is not a good buy for the $.
I was interested to see what Volvo was doing with the new S40 [we tried and rejected the original S40 a few years ago]. The price is aggressively high - how much higher than the market will ultimately bear remains to be seen. And for me, the T5 versions would all ride too firmly for my tastes. But early demand seems solid - I have a friend who works at a dual MB-Volvo dealership, and interest in the S40 has been lively.
Sport suspension is a $750 option on the T-5 along w/ these fancy-looking 17"s. The T-5 only LOOKS the same as the 2.4i w/ optional sport suspension due to the wheels, fog lights, aluminum trims & the T-tech fabric.
I tested the shocks w/ my 185-lb body-weight pushing the car on each outside corner. Guess what? The std T-5 is softer than the 2.4i w/ sport package.
It's my understanding that the stereo doesn't have an AUX port anywhere and obviously a replacement head unit is not an option with car's unique console design (not that I would want to replace it anyway!). I could always use an FM adapter but that seems so lame given the reduced sound quality... thanks!
Thanks again!
I've heard lots of good things about the Mazda 3. More recently I've been intrigued by the S40 which of course shares the same platform. I figure I could get a base S40 2.4i, manual transmission for not much more than a loaded Mazda 3 sedan. But I imagine the Volvo would be more comfortable and better insulated against noise. I have a long freeway commute so highway ride and quietness are important. Of course, I haven't driven either car yet, but was curious about any opinions you might care to share.
Thanks!
I am confused and have tendency to believe that our respected experts are not quite accurate there.
I have an OSD Order Confirmation in front of me, that clearly states that I am buying my XC90 from Volvo Cars of North America, LLC via their Overseas Delivery program.
Also, doesn't it surprise you, that the OSD program available only in US and Canada, but VCNA somehow is "cut out"?
Any comments?