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Buick LaCrosse

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Comments

  • chavis10chavis10 Posts: 166
    That's wonderful. But I wouldn't be caught dead in anything boring looking or ugly. If someone were to give me say an ES330 or any other Toyota product save the LS430 for free, I wouldn't even park it in front of my house. I'd go straight to a dealership and trade it in for something else. I don't think I was implying that you should spend a half an hour everyday staring at your car. That's simply dumb. However, if I'm going to spend my hard earned bucks, that car sitting outside had definitely better be good looking. I agree with mbukukanyau (btw, can we abbreviate your name, that's a headache to type), the LaCrosse is sick. It looks better than everything else in the class. You folks can agrue about no Nav or whatever else. I still might be driving one of these bad boys in the fall over the Accord, Camry, Altima that offer Nav and no style.

    Alpha, I disagree. It seems like people are now acting like the 3800 is a junk motor now that the 3600 will be available. The 3800 will provide equal or better performance than the 3.0L v-6 in the Camry. I don't know about the current CamCorders, but back in like '98, 70% of them were four bangers. So even though the six cylinders get all the credit, the measly fours are racking up the sales figures. It's interesting when people quote sales figures of the CamCorder against other cars who only offer V-6 power. If you wanted to compare apples to apples, almost every other V-6 only car out sells the Accord and Camry.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    With regard to this "If you wanted to compare apples to apples, almost every other V-6 only car out sells the Accord and Camry." Show me numbers. (Given your assumption that 30% of Camcords are V6s, and they both sell about 400K units per year, thats still a whole 120K V6s sold for each model. Practically all of those would be private registrations since the fleet Camcords are basic 4s. So, how many private registrations did the Intrigue have in its best year? Or how bout the Regal?)

    I dont recall ever seeing a comparison test of an Intrigue vs. the Camcord 4s. You'll never see a comparison test of the LaCrosse vs. the Camcord 4s either. Why? Because of the target within the segment. As I have already stated, the LaCrosse with the 3800 V6 will be starting at $23,000 plus. Given the CX's level of standard equipment (or lack there of) the most closely justifiable trim of the Camcords would be the LE and LX. Both the Camry LE V6 and Accord LX V6 cost in the $23,000 range, so this is the comparison that I feel is most valid, and that most buyers cross shopping the Camcords and the Lacrosse CX will make. I dont think the 3800 is junk at all. But I do think that the 3600 should have been made available as an option at least on the CXL. (And yes, I think the 3800 will be pretty even in terms of acceleration with the Camry 210hp 3.0L. But the Camry V6 is smoother than GMs 3800, AND if you want more guts in the Camry, you can move to the 3.3L 225hp 240 foot pound unit for $24,500 in the SE).

    I dont really know how/why you state "So even though the six cylinders get all the credit, the measly fours are racking up the sales figures." No, the Camry and Accord are lauded because of many factors, their engines being one of them.

    Its all good, youre free to disagree. I just think my argument holds more truth than yours.

    ~alpha
  • danielj6danielj6 Posts: 285
    I don't know what GM was thinking when it decided to name their new Buick "La Crosse". Looks don't matter to me. I really like the way the Taurus looks; however, there are safer cars around.

    What would drew me to a Buick dealer, indeed, would be safety all around. Also, head rest design and most important in my list is bumper strength. In my research can not find big, medium or small sedans with "Good" ratings in 5 mph tests, according to IIHS. Except for some VW models and Toyota's Corolla, the rest received "Marginal" or "Poor" ratings. Car manufacturers know how to build strong bumpers that absorb hits and protect the body of the car. Not a priority to them though.

    Regarding Buick's bumpers, Le Sabre achieved a "Marginal" and Park Avenue an "Acceptable". And these are large cars. We'll see about the La Crosse.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    First of all it is important to note than all Lacrosse's will be 6 cylinders, while the majority of Camcords are 4 cylinders and they always will be. Sure you can get an Accord/Camry V6 for $23K, but most buyers would rather have a 4 cylinder model with more options than a stripped V6. The Lacrosse's base price may be higher, but base model Japanese cars do not come with a lot of standard features and the bottom line is that a loaded Passat/Camry/Accord/LAcrosse will run you $28K-$30K. If you look at the pricing of the Regal, which is obviously inferior to the Lacrosse, it is about the same. GM believes that they shouldn't price V6 base model cars as low as Japanese four cylinder sedans and I can't blame them. As Chavis said, the magazines rarely test 4 cylinder versions of the top selling sedans when those models represent the overwhelming majority of sales. Lets remember that other models besides the 240hp Accord will be competing with the lacrosse, those models include the 200hp 500 and the 190hp Passat. Why is no one bringing up those models? Especially when most magazines claim the the Passat is the best midsize sedan on the market.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    "Sure you can get an Accord/Camry V6 for $23K, but most buyers would rather have a 4 cylinder model with more options than a stripped V6."

    -This statement is based on what?

    "The Lacrosse's base price may be higher, but base model Japanese cars do not come with a lot of standard features and the bottom line is that a loaded Passat/Camry/Accord/LAcrosse will run you $28K-$30K"

    - Actually, you're wrong. The Camry LE 4 cylinder has all of the standard features of the LaCrosse CX, which will start about $3000 higher than the Camry. So does the Accord (which has ABS standard but not a power drivers seat). Additionally, the Passat does and the LaCrosse CXS will.. top $30K.

    "As Chavis said, the magazines rarely test 4 cylinder versions of the top selling sedans when those models represent the overwhelming majority of sales."

    -Motor Trend, Car and Driver, and Consumer Reports ALL had tests of 4 cylinder family cars in 2003, so I'm not too sure where this comment comes from.

    The 500 has been widely criticized for its on-paper specs and relative lack of power. That said, the 500 isnt a competitor to the midsize sedans, the Futura is. The 500 will do battle with bigger vehicles, like the Avalon, Chrysler 300s, Amanti and GMs larger offerings (LeSabre, Bonne).

    Most magazines do not claim the Passat the best midsize sedan on the market, just CR. They dont really emphasize peformance, but I would certainly agree with you- the 190hp V6 Passat has fallen behind the power field.

    ~alpha
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    this will be hard for both of you to comprehend, but i do not like the styling of the LaCrosse. i really don't. while i don't think most magazines are going to share my opinion on its styling, i also don't think they're going to share your opinions either about how great you both think this car looks.

    when it comes to styling both of you give the impression that your opinions are the final arbitrator. personally i think the ES300 and the new TL (by a big margin) have better styling than the LaCrosse. of course this doesn't make me any more "right" than either of you.
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    compared to the v6 engines from japan and germany, the 3800 is a "junk" motor. in terms of smoothness, refinement and overall performance (and outright accleration in some cases) the 3800 just doesn't compete well.

    as someone from automobile magazine stated "this is a lazy powerful engine".

    GM should make the 3.6l standard across the board for the LaCrosse (especially if the ES300 is considered a competitor). Maybe the LaCrosse should just have a "detuned" version for the lower priced models.

    GM was able to smooth out the edges in the malibu's 3.5L V6 pushrod engine, but it still isn't on par with the japanese V6 engines. this is more than acceptable in the malibu's segment, but for cars the LaCrosse is competing against, I don't think so.
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Posts: 1,031
    Uh-oh..do I hear "flamewar"??? LOL
  • fastdriverfastdriver Posts: 2,273
    rctennis3811-

    "Uh-oh..do I hear "flamewar"??? LOL"

    Isn't it nuts? The freakin car isn't even out yet and things are hot here. Should be REAL interesting once it hits the showrooms! ;-)))

    Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder!

    fastdriver
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    it's like Christmas when you're were a kid. the anticipation and excitement of a new car coming out.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,565
    But most kids do not decide they don't like the present before they opened it up and played with it, or discovered it is a sweater instead of a toy.

    Me, I have no interest in buying a LaCrosse, as it is packaged too much like the 2000 Taurus I already have, and also since I don't plan on replacing the Taurus for another 6 years.

    If I was in the market for a sedan in the near future, I would more seriously consider Ford 500 this fall or about a year later Ford Futura if I wanted something smaller than the 500. Our next vehicle will likely be to replace my wife's 1996 Caravan in maybe a year or two or three.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    What the hell are you talking about?

    My assertion that the majority of import sedan buyers prfer 4 cylinders is based on things I've read and my own observations. Whether you are talking about the Camry, Accord or Altima the majority of the sales are 4 bangers. I know that 4 cylinder models of these cars are tested occasionally but you have to admit that most of the road tests and comparos feature the V6 models because they perform better. CR is not the only magazine that claims the Passat is the best, or one of the best, sedans on the market. edmunds loves the Passat, as does Motorweek and Automobile. The Passat was just knocked off the Automobile Allstar list last year in spite of the fact that the car is 6 years old. I'm not saying I agree with that, but the press loves the Passat and it only has 190hp in V6 form.

    Also, how is it that you already know the starting and fully loaded prices of the Lacrosse? Do you have info that we don't? You know for a fact that it will cost over $30K loaded?
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Im not really sure which statement of mine you're not understanding. My points in the past several weeks regarding the LaCrosse, which is a vehicle that I like, based on what I've seen on paper are that:

    1) there are a few key features missing that I think might make a difference in this market. example- the larger V6 should be offered at least on the CXL model and not just the CXS, ABS should be standard on all models, side airbags would be nice, where is the CXS's NAV system, etc

    2) the LaCrosse is probably not going to be cross shopped against 4 cylinder CamCords, but rather the V6 versions of those models which are more closely matched on MSRP with the LaCrosse models as per the generally accepted price range for the LaCrosse than the 4 cylinder models anyway [You're absolutely right. I dont know the final pricing on the LaCrosse - my assertion is based on things I've read and my own observations.]

    3) contrary to what you have stated, the LaCrosse does NOT offer more standard features than the Camry LE and/or Accord LX

    Regarding Edmunds.com love of the Passat:
    http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/101056/page011- - .html

    "It made us a little sad to see the beloved car fall to fifth, even as it was the unanimous number-one pick for editors' personal driveways and a solid number two on our list of cars we would recommend to others. But when we looked at the high price of our GLX test vehicle ($31,540) alongside its modest engine performance, small backseat and minimal storage space, the result wasn't so surprising."

    You are exaggerating a bit. It seems that the press is generally recognizing the current Passat for what it is- an excellent design that has been eclipsed by newer ones.

    :)

    ~alpha
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,876
    Given that the top Regal price for 2004 is right at the $30K mark, and the LaCrosse is alleged to be a redesign/improvement, doesn't it seem unlikely that the fully-loaded LaCrosse would be offered for LESS? Seems a reasonable assumption to me.

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  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    That was a good article. I think the LaCrosse will be a hit. You can say what you want about the price or the lack of Navigation, but this car looks to be the equal of any Accord or Camry in terms of design and refinement.
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    looks like the interior was designed for old farts, i mean it's conservative. we'll have to see if this car delivers. i've heard this song and dance from gm before.
  • joey2brixjoey2brix Posts: 464
    The Buick camp at the NY Autoshow must have been the biggest ghost town of the show right after the Olds display which was almost shoved down an emergency exit hallway. No one even noticed the Lacrosse. GM better pray high gas prices don't kill SUV sales.
  • rerenov8rrerenov8r Posts: 380
    I don't want to contribute to too much drift, but I could not help but be flabbergasted by what I saw yesterday, Tax Day, April 15...

    I had just sunk $30 / 16 gallons into fueling up my '01 Bravada, and having really nursed along the MPG in uncharacteristally heavy stop-n-go commutting ( there was a prairie burn that caused gawkers and few fender benders -- ARGH!!) I felt pretty good to stil have my AVG MPG above 18 MPG.

    I went to a carryout place to pickup dinner and the only space open in the lot was between a HummerH2 & and an Expedition. These beasts literally TOWERED over the Bravada! To make matters worse the H2 driver was sitting in it and IDLING!!!

    Why do I mention this in a forum about an upcoming sedan? Simple: I really doubt that folks will shift from SUVs into sedans. The feeling of being "dwarfed" is huge, probably 90% of SUV buyers don't give a damn about fuel economy, and with the ridiculous tax treatment that the 6000GVW+ SUVs get the owners actually feel like they are getting a bargin...
  • yurakmyurakm Posts: 1,345
    We will need a third car in 2.5 years, when our son will turn 16. Year 2007 models will be available than.

    We have a 2000 Regal GS. We like it very much, and would consider another one.

    LaCrosse is positioned as a natural replacement for Regal. However, it looks like a used 2000 Regal GS will have a better powertrain than LaCrosse.

    Both the new 3.6l engine, and the old supercharged 3.8l have the same power, 240hp. However, the new engine have substantially less torque: 235 vs. 280 lb*ft.

    To my understanding, for comparable acceleration, the driver needs to rev. the new engine to 6000 rpm. Of course, it depends also on transmission. However, it looks as LaCrosse will be noticeable slower in city, and somewhat slower on highway.

    By the way, from 1997 till 2001 or 2002, Regal GS was practically the fastest cars, with most powerful 6-cylinder engine. To go faster, you need to buy a sport or lux. car with V-8. From 2002, Honda, Nissan, and other manufacturers are providing engines with the same or higher power. Including small 4-cylinder Subaru Impeza.

    Gran Prix supercharged engine was upgraded to 280hp last year; nothing comparable will be available with LaCrosse.
  • mbukukanyaumbukukanyau Posts: 200
    You sure know your GM powertrain! I am impressed
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Posts: 1,031
    Same here. The Buick lot at the Dallas Auto Show was DESERTED. But it's not their cars, just their location. Can you believe GM stuck them right next to HUMMER!?! Of course everyone's going to see the H2 rather then the LaCrosse!
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    in terms of smoothness and refinement i would say the new 3.6l will have it all over the powerful but "lazy" 3.8l engines. and out on the highway or when you're pushing your car on a curvy county road the 3.6l again will be more appealing.

    the lacrosse ain't going to weigh as much as a hefty SUV or is it going to be expected to haul like a truck so what's the point of having blobs of low end torque. once the car gets moving it's horsepower that counts in the end.

    if you really want to go to the extreme for low end torque you can get a tractor to cruise around.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I wonder just how accurate those power and torque figures are. The same unit in the CTS/SRX is rated higher- significantly higher- but what exactly are the changes that GM made to bump DOWN the output of the LaCrosse application? What I'm saying- mfrs. have been know from time to time to dumb down numbers when NOT doing so might otherwise infringe on the status of other model lines.

    ~alpha
  • rctennis3811rctennis3811 Posts: 1,031
    Maybe the muffler/exhaust system is smaller?
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    that "breathing" is the issue, but is the 3.6L in the LaCrosse so constricted as to lose 15 horses and 17 foot pounds torque? Seems like a lot...

    (The CTS is rated at 255 and 252 respectively)

    ~alpha
  • yurakmyurakm Posts: 1,345
    May I ask you, please, to explain how to compare refinement of two engines? Is it a value we can measure, or some subjective impression?

    SC 3800 have maximum torque at 3600 rpm. Not exactly low-end.

    I use the power for:

    - changing lanes moving from full stop at traffic light;

    - passing with changing lanes in city traffic, at low speed, something like 25 to 45 mph. Need to do it fast, while there is still a "window" in traffic.

    - merging on highways. Very few motorists yields to merging cars in New England.

    - passing on highways, again with changing lanes and using small "windows" in traffic. The traffic is somewhat dense in Connecticut and around (Boston, NYC).

    In all of these cases, I do not rev engine to red line. A burst of 3600-4000 rpm is more than enough. I have to watch the speed, though. For example, in performance shift mode my GS accelerates on highway from 75 mph to 96 mph in 2 seconds. This is way too much. GM deleted the mode starting from year 2001.

    I do not understand why I need to push the car on a "curvy county road". I mean two-lane road, one lane in each direction. I definitely would not pass on curves. Big risk of a head-on collusion.

    Our local roads are not only winding, but rather hilly. A powerful engine lets drive with constant speed. Most of cars are losing speed when driving uphill. For example, on CT route 15 (state highway). Especially between exit 59 and exit 58 in direction to NYC. This is not a safety issue, like merging or passing. However, not a pretty picture.

    Driving uphill will not be a problem for LaCrosse with new 3.6l. I am not so sure, though, concerning the normally aspirated 3800.
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    i suppose you can call it speculative but most people would say OHC designs will be more free revving and responsive throughout the rev range emitting more "pleasant" sounds than OHV designs.

    from edmunds on the lacrosse: "The 200-horsepower, 3.8-liter (3800) V6 returns to the lineup as the base engine, but the company says that engineers took extensive measures to ensure smoother, quieter operation"

    apparently the engineers from GM believe the existing 3.8l could use some work in the refinement area.

    this is just my speculation mind you, but GM decided not to supercharge the 3.8l engine for its top model because they believe the 3.6l would compete better with the competition.

    i found myself not needing to rev past 4000 rpms in the driving conditions you indicated either.
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