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Could they sell a lot of vehicles if they cut prices? You bet. And what do you think that will do to resale values and how much harder will it be to increase prices later?
This is what I think. Cutting prices could easily help resale value. Right now, Lincoln prices are set much higher than actual transaction prices, and THAT is what is hurting resale value at present.
Meanwhile, Ford has shown that you can increase prices AND resale value, if you have a vehicle like the Taurus that people believe is worth the asking price. Lincoln does not have such a vehicle, and until they do, they should not be asking so much money for their cars, when they actually sell them only with big discounts.
If this was the end game for Lincoln then I would agree with everything you're saying. But it's obviously not. The plan is for much better products that justify the higher prices and until they get them they're just going to settle for lower volumes without cutting prices too much or putting huge rebates on the hood.
There is no wrong or right here - they could go either way. But I think the way they're going currently is setting them up for where they want to be in 3 years and cutting prices would go against that.
You're thinking now and Ford is thinking 5 years from now. Will it work? I think so but we'll have to wait and see.
I would definitely consider a Lincoln if it is rear wheel drive, or rear-biased all wheel drive. Because it is neither at present, it can never be on my shopping list. My spouse and I currently drive Infiniti vehicles because we love the handling.
I fell in love with real Lincolns when they came out with those slab sided models back in 1961, I believe. What Ford did to the brand since is a travesty.
Have they learned anything yet? After Ford trashed Jaguar attempting to make it a volume car with the X Type I am not holding my breath.
1 - Ford is making money and can afford to splurge a little on a low volume vehicle
2 - Ford has turned the engineers loose to make the best cars possible
3 - Ford Australia has a nice RWD platform with V8 power readily available
4 - Ford management is totally different than it's ever been
Uniroyal Tiger Paws are about $40 less per tire the Michelin and are made by Michelin, basicaly same tire . Comes with excellent guarentee. I like the tires. Jerry
I presume the Fusion delays have also had an impact on mkZ production but nobody has come out and said that yet.
No idea why the mkz debut was so late in the year but I suspect it was due to the Fusion launch as well - not wanting to do both at the same time.
Patience, grasshopper.
I'm not aware of other mfrs using an open ended ship date. I believe most if not all do pre builds and inspections but I don't think they have the 5 consecutive day requirement with no specific end date to start shipping. It does make it frustrating for people waiting for the vehicles to arrive but it also ensures the best possible quality once they do start shipping.
I guess you missed all the reports of the Lincoln dealership overhauls. They're targeting stand alone buildings with a luxury experience similar to Lexus. 80% of the Lincoln dealers are investing at least a million bucks to do that. But Rome wasn't built in a day - give them a couple of years to get there.
It seems to beat the new ES350 at its own game, and with a lower price to boot. Seems very well received. The downsides are few: while bigger on the outside, interior space is several cubic feet less than the Fusion. The ES350 offers more space. And like other reviews of this engine, the 2.0 liter four at full song does not sound like luxury. However, the V6 is available for those who want it.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-lexus-es350-first-drive-review
No double standard there. Nope.
First of all, Allen, do a bit more reading. The reviews of the new ES350 have judged it anywhere from namby-pampy, like this one, to mediocre. I haven't driven one, but have read that reviewers do not find it as refined feeling as the previous iteration. It certainly doesn't stand out in any way. Even this review stated they would rather be driving any number of other vehicles over the roads they tested it on. They also titled it "A Rolling Wallflower," which is hardly an endorsement.
Secondly, and admittedly a minor point, the ES350 is no longer based on a "cheaper mid-sized sedan." It is now based on the Avalon, which is pretty much in the same class as the ES350, albeit slightly less expensive. Comparisons of the two seem to suggest that the Avalon is not only better looking (subjective, I know...but in side profile shares a lot with the new Fusion), but is also the better car of the two.
Now, as for the advantages of the ES350 over the MKZ, there really aren't any substantial ones, just comparing machine to machine (leaving off brand names). Perhaps the only significant advantage is the ES350 has more interior room within a slightly smaller body. However, one could also argue that the MKZ is better looking. Driven back to back, without labels, I suspect more people would choose the MKZ. But I also think that under the same conditions, more people would choose the Fusion over the Camry.
But here's where Lexus will continue to win. They already have the wonderful dealer network in place. They already have their reputation. They already have many satisfied customers who will trade up to a newer model without even driving the competition. They already have the vaunted re-sale value.
What Lincoln needs to do in order to begin making real inroads in the established pecking order is to hit one out of the ballpark. However, the new MKZ is more akin to what the MKS was on its introduction: a perfectly adequate entry into a field of good cars. It is better than the MKS attempt, actually, because it is better looking, better equipped, and apparently feels a bit better going down the road.
But even hitting one out of the ballpark is is a slow way to rebuild. That too is only a start. Witness the sales of the Cadillac ATS. While it has actually won several of the comparos against the rival BMW model, and lots of good press on its own, sales so far have been a yawn, and have further depressed sales and production of the CTS.
It is cut-throat out there. I'd like to see this MKZ succeed, but I suspect most people will find the Fusion Titanium more satisfying. We shall see. We will also see if the next new Lincoln makes the bigger splash it needs to make.
Gregg - I'll reread the reviews but it just seemed like they dinged the MKZ for certain things but let the ES350 slide when it was the same or worse. Maybe I'm just being oversensitive.
The MKZ gets panned because they didn't like the handling when pushed hard yet the ES350 which is even worse gets a pass.
Obviously these were written by 2 different people using 2 different sets of requirements. It just smacks of the double standard that Lincoln has to fight and I don't think it's fair.
The MKZ isn't the best vehicle but objectively it's much better than the ES350 and some others and the reviews should reflect that.
And if you insist on stating that the related Camry and Avalon platforms are the same architecture (like Fusion and MKZ actually are), then we shall have to do the same when the new Taurus/MKS platform is fashioned from the Fusion platform. Since Camry and Avalon have different hardpoints and wheelbases, truly their relationship is not the same as the one that Fusion and MKZ have with each other. But whatever you prefer...we can call the coming MKS the same platform as the MKZ if you prefer.
That said, let's see what is written when the same reviewer compares both cars together.
As long as they're unique vehicles it doesn't matter what platform they started with.
I know the AW review was positive which is why it's so frustrating.
Motor Trend fell in love with Avalon when they tested it for Car of the Year, saying it was the car that most surprised them. And it gets 25 MPG combined with the V6.
I have a problem with these new Ford hybrids getting nowhere near 47 MPG. They are getting pretty much what the 2012's got. No more.
There are no losers at this party, but I think Lincoln will have a similar start to Cadillac's ATS, which sold only 1200 in it's first full month. But I believe it will build a following as it goes through it's lifecycle. It seems like a solid new entry, but the weak Lincoln brand, and horrible Lincoln dealerships, is probably what will hurt it the most at the start.
"Lincoln doesn't want anyone to think of its newest offering as a redesigned Ford Fusion with boosted luxury appointments and a $15,000 price premium, but the reality remains hard to ignore. A sinking feeling in our stomachs tells us this MKZ is still not distinct enough to buoy the luxury brand."
Our conclusion, after taking the Audi A6, BMW 5 Series, Cadillac CTS and Lexus ES into consideration, is that the 2013 MKZ falls short. There are significant compromises (second row comfort, small trunk, ergonomic gripes and a thirsty V6 to name a few) keeping it off our most-wanted list.
Out of those vehicles, only the Lexus gets better fuel economy, none have a bigger trunk.
I wish they'd just say "we like the other ones better" instead of trying to make up objective reasons that aren't really accurate.
This is not a world beater - just a significant improvement over the old model that should increase sales considerably and should at least stop the "rebadge" references.
Agreed. However, it again underscores the slow learning at Ford about Lincoln. Each vehicle issued in the 2000's was designed to perk up Lincoln. The MKZ, MKX, MKS, MKT all failed to grab imaginations, and the Navigator just rotted.
The new MKZ has more of a chance, simply because it is not homely like the MKS, not ugly like the MKT, not non-descript like the former MKZ, and not a Ford with different front and rear clips like the MKX. This MKZ could have been the Kia Optima-type change of this class, given the seven year model year run of the previous iteration.
A world beater is what they ought to build to save the brand, and they still haven't quite learned that part of turning things around. It is not enough that the car is as good or better than the ES350. The ES350 already has a large customer base.
Lincoln also mentions plans for unique engines, but has managed to deliver none so far. The hybrid and 2.0 liter are available in the Fusion for example, and the 3.7 is in the Mustang and the F150. Yes, GM does the same thing, but GM didn't claim they would do otherwise.
I don't understand how talking about what will be for the last dozen years has done anything for Lincoln. Surprise us. Do something unexpected. Stop with the "we plan to do this or that" stuff. Just do it.
You should give the new guys a chance to prove they can do something different. And they need a couple more years to do it. I don't see this new plan as anything like the old ones. I believe one reason they seem to be moving slowly is they're trying to do it right the first time (this go round at least) so they're being more methodical than some might like. I also think they were given a limited budget and resources to work within because at the end of the day Lincoln has to make money.
Am I making excuses? Maybe. When we see the new dealerships and the next 2 new vehicles we'll know for sure. In the meantime a little progress is better than none.
The MKZ is the best vehicle that Lincoln has produced in at least the last 30 years. They should get some credit for that.
It seems to be a good vehicle and probably as good or better than the ES350. I will give them credit for that.
However, for its time, and put against other cars of its time, the 2000 Lincoln LS was arguably the best Lincoln in the past 30 years. It received very good press, and it won the Car of the Year award. It tested well against the competition and came in at a better price than most.
Even the 1993 Mark VIII with RWD, independent suspension, and DOHC 32 valve V8 (when the competition was still mostly marketing OHV V8s), was probably as good in its time as the new MKZ is now. The problem with the VIII (in addition to some long-term reliability issues) was that it was introduced at a time when grand touring luxury coupes--indeed, all sorts of 2 door coupes--were beginning to fall out of favor as the market moved toward other types of specialty luxury vehicles (SUVs, and sport versions of sedans).
Heck, the 1991 Town Car, with its superior styling, interior space, SOHC V8. dual airbags and anti-lock brakes was superior to the FWD deVille, Park Avenue, 98, and of course the New Yorker.
The new Lexus LS of that era was really in a class above, but was initially sold at a very low price for its class (that wasn't that much higher than the Lincoln) in order to establish sales, market share and reputation--a move that succeeded brilliantly. But I digress.
A little progress is better than none until it begins to feel like damning with faint praise. Therein the problem: Lincoln has screwed around with comeback plans and concepts and marketing ploys for the last dozen years and it isn't as if the auto press has not noticed. So skepticism is to be expected and weathered, because that skepticism was well-earned. Real damage was created when they tried to force something into place that should not have been there.
I do not believe the situation is hopeless. Lincoln needs to move out of its own way to get a clearer view. It is very hard to find what you don't know you are searching for.
One thing is clear: to begin to be a viable and respected luxury company, they have to set a goal of building the best cars in their class. Because a lot of their competition already have the same goal. Despite that goal, obviously all can't rise to the top. But those with that goal have a better chance of staying in the game.
I agree they need to build best in class vehicles - eventually. I just think they have a few years to get there.
With few exceptions, all cars sold today are reasonably good to great. Compared to cars of the past, they have more equipment, better interior materials, greater safety, better tires, better sound insulation, better chassis rigidity, etc. The MKZ today being good enough or "better than a ES350" is hardly in the same league of goodness that the LS had in 2000.
The new MKZ, even FWD based, could have made the same impact, but does not. It's this ongoing thinking that they have a few years to get there that keeps Lincoln second-rate, despite having some good vehicles for sale.
Granted, the Zephyr was stop-gap for a starved brand back in 2005. For what little impact changing the grill a couple times and the rear end styling had over the seven years of the first iteration, they could have taken those funds and added them to the effort to create the very best car they could the second time around.
I just do not understand how such limited thinking professionals continued to get nice salaries and bonuses for so long while turning in such unremarkable efforts for Lincoln for so many years. Where were the car guys in this?
When I first saw the concept for the MKS years ago, I said, "Oh, no!, that would be a mistake...just look at it!" And who am I? Nobody. When I saw how they screwed up the MKT concept by modifying it into the whale of a station wagon it is today, I was like, "please don't!" The concept was edgier, prettier and more provocative. I remember protesting how they changed the Lincoln concept vehicle for the MKX into an Edge with a Lincoln clip, and you argued that the concept and the MKX looked practically the same and no one would notice.
Well, people do notice daring styling, and they notice when styling is bland, but daring usually has to come first to establish a foothold.
I repeat: to begin to be a viable and respected luxury company, Lincoln must set a goal of building the best cars in their class. Anything less is just wasted effort until they do so. Holding on to their little market share, or waiting until Lincoln itself generates enough profits to really introduce outstanding iron will not get them much further than it has in the past many years of tweaking things.
I have to believe the new new new Lincoln team has finally gotten the memo. But I also know that as more luxury offerings are being created worldwide, other models and makes will continue to go under. It is the nature of the business.
Another matter though is that the MKZ given to Edmunds to test on the road was rigged with Michelin Super Sport tires. According to a Ford spokesman, The tires would be agency or dealership offered if they even are offered. However,the tires didn't seem to impress the testers though as according to Edmunds and Car and Driver, the performance of the vehicle was middling at best. Retest the vehicle with the tires that the vehicle has been designed for and then determine how really good this car performs. But still one has to wonder why did Ford try to rig the results with using tires that are not offered on the vehicle.
Umm....I guess you missed the part where the slalom speed of the MKZ with the ringer tires (same as the M5) was faster than the M5 and only 1 mph slower than a Porsche 911. They were impressed with the performance but they were so upset about the ringer tires they couldn't bring themselves to say anything good about it.
All this "it's not good enough" without any actual objective comparisons to back it up is tiresome. It's not the best but it's not as bad as reviewers are making out.
We will just have to wait to see how good this Ford platform is when the MKZ is pitted against its rivals in a real road test. As far as being faster than an M5 what type of G forces does the MKZ have versus the M5 when slaloming? Also , does the MKZ understeer ?It is inevitable that it does because of its fwd platform. Even moderately priced Audi and VW vehicles do so to some extent even with awd because of unequal weight distribution. BMW sedans, sport coupe and roadsters all are engineered for neutral steer. Al be it it's easier to do so with a rear wheel drive vehicle. It seem also that according to the road testers that the awd system on the MKZ is not oriented towards performance as are other vehicles' awd systems in the MKZ's price range but only for traction during inclement weather as according to the testers on dry pavement one really has to push the vehicle to its extreme limits to get it to engage.
The testers should have refused to test the factory rigged vehicles. The testers should have gotten one from an agency or dealership. One that consumers would have to purchase.
"Slip inside the cabin and the new Lincoln MKZ feels special from the first. A high center stack sweeps down from the dashboard into the center console in one fluid form. The stack of controls itself is dominated by a large touchscreen interface with touch-capacitive faux-buttons.
At this point, we think the Lincoln MKZ is a better car than the Lexus ES, which is a big statement from us. It drives better, looks better and offers as much luxury, though the dealership experience is another thing, of course. Yet the midsize market doesn't end with the Lexus ES, as the comparative set includes the Acura TL SH-AWD, Audi A4 and Volvo S60 - three cars that deliver the same prestige, price and package size as the MKZ.
For those looking for something daring, dashing, and different in the midsize luxury segment, the 2013 Lincoln MKZ is a genuine player. And so for Lincoln, the game begins."