Luxury Performance Sedans

ctsang · July 2005

I bought my previous generation BMW 530i based on CR and they were absolutely right. It is the best and no problem at all so far.

markcincinnati · July 2005

Here is THE test I would love to see:

Acura RL
Audi A6 3.2
BMW 530xi
Infiniti M35X
Lexus GS300 AWD
Mercedes E350 4Matic

Of course price would be a factor, so I would think the cars should be equipped the same and let the MSRP be the MSRP. My $53,286 Audi A6 3.2 is roughly the same equipment level as the Infiniti M35X as I had ordered it -- at $50,370.

Or -- The price could be $50,000 "MSRP" or "street price" period (MSRP would be my choice) and let the chips fall where they may. The Acura and Infiniti would, from the "$" weighted perspective, be given a leg up, one would imagine.

Each car would have to be configured to attempt to minimze performance differences, too. The Audi A6 should come shod with the 18" wheel/tire combo, if the competition offers this. The Infiniti comes "standard" with A/S 18" high performance rubber -- the other guys should match.

The Acura has the kitchen sink -- perhaps configuring the others likewise would be prudent, then the review could be $ weighted and $ un-weighted, and let the chips fall where they may.

I would also love to see a test between:

Cadillac STS AWD
Chrysler 300C AWD
VW Passat 3.6 4Motion

Of course the second test would be so skewed due to the price and class differences that many would cry "foul." But, there have been over the years test of cars from different classes and price ranges due to certain other design elements, etc. In any case it would be a fun read.

Hopefully these comparison reports will happen soon. :shades:

lexusguy · July 2005

I'd like to see a big AWD comparison as well, but I dont think its likely. All of the major mags have already thrown these cars together once, and they generally dont do repeat comparisons unless there's major changes to a model.

As for my personal take, the GS300 AWD has the most elegant interior of any of the Japanese players, and it would probably be my choice for highway cruising. Fortunately it doesnt have the E-brakes and steering of the 430, but its still too much of a disconnect to be the kind of sedan where you'd stay off the highway and take the backroads home.

The RL is nice, and at the $45K or so they are selling for now, finally the "good deal" that it should've been in the first place. The interior layout is a little wierd, my least favorite. The exterior is also utterly forgettable. Its cramped, and kinda sluggish. It handles reasonably well but..

The Infiniti M is just so much better.

dhamilton · July 2005

If you go to the inside line section of Edmunds, there is a recent review of almost [if not all] all of the cars discussed here. The RL comes out on top. It sure is up to personal preference, but that's a bunch of guys that do nothing but drive and compare cars. Viva la RL

bondguy1 · July 2005

who was it that had the ten best of the year...Motor Trend I think...but the BMW 5 Series used to make it every year...hasn't made it since the redesign a few years ago.

lexusguy · July 2005

Wierd, they ranked it First place, yet it won nothing that had anything to do with driving, and managed only a few 1sts in anything at all. I dont get it. I also dont get how they consider the RL to be "roomy".

pasgener · July 2005

Edmunds has a comparo of LPS AWD V6's up:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=106555/pageId=64900

As with many prior Edmund's comparos, this one make very little sense:

1. How can the M35x come second to the 530x on engine performance? It was faster to 60 and faster in the quarter mile!

2. How can it come second on transmission when they describe the automatic on the M35x as "perfect". Oh wait, maybe they mean that a standard tranny is better -- but this comparo should compare like cars: only the Bimmer comes with a stick, the rest are all autos, and so autos should be compared.

3. What the hell does "visibility" measure? And how could the M possibly come last (and by a longshot)?!? I can see perfectly well out of my M35x, and the reverse camera is superb!

4. They continue to quibble with the interior quality of the M35x. What planet are they from? After complaining about how stark the BMW cabin is (which it is, dreadfully so), they rank the M35 last! It may be only my opinion, but I find the interior design and quality to be superior in the M than in the 5 and equal to the A6.

5. If the M is so "ponderous" as they say, why was it only 0.2mph behind the 530x through the slalom, which they perceive as being magically responsive on the road? Why did it brake to a stop in 11 fewer feet?

6. Perhaps they should proof-read their data. A number of tables call the M35x the G35x. Also, how can the M35 have the shortest time to the quarter mile, but have the slowest speed at the quarter mile?

It's almost as if they outcome was decided in advance and the "data" skewed to match up with that expectation. The problem is that people read this and believe it to be true.

Shameful

kfhmail · July 2005

Acura RL "and when the car behind you is blinding you with his brights you touch a button and your rear window shade raises to give you the peace you may be looking for"

Hey...that is another good reason I wish you could get the rear sun shade without having to buy the premium/entertainment package on the M35.

Come on Infiniti...make the rear sun shade either part of standard equipment or part of the journey package...or...as a stand alone option!!!

jrock65 · July 2005

"How can the M35x come second to the 530x on engine performance? It was faster to 60 and faster in the quarter mile! "

Exactly. The M spanked the 5 in every possible facet of engine performance, yet somehow the 5 gets the nod? ????

"I also dont get how they consider the RL to be "roomy"."

Yeah. Did they get a special addition "roomy" RL or something? The M is without question the roomiest vehicle in almost every way, yet this didn't seem to help it in scoring in any way.

"Senior Content Editor Erin Riches says: [In the M], I always felt like I was driving somebody else's car."

Sounds like the M didn't even have a chance from the get-go.

---------

I love Edmunds and all, and I'm not saying that the RL shouldn't have won, as it is an excellent car, but they really need to stop with the contradictions (i.e., 5 engine > M engine) and nonsensical things (RL is "roomy") in their comparos. Maybe then Edmunds comparos will be taken seriously instead of being the laughingstock in all the other forums.

An Infiniti has NEVER won an Edmunds comparo. And no Infiniti EVER will, at least as long as the current crop of editors are around.

pat · July 2005

You folks can speak directly to Editor-In-Chief Karl Brauer over in this discussion: Karl's Daily Log Book. Have at him and let us know what happens.

lexusguy · July 2005

Here's my problem. The only things the RL actually won were "front seat comfort", "rattles and squeaks", and "entry\exit". In virtually every other catergory, it was 3\5. HOW is that a 1st place car?? It lost in all performance catergories, lost in fun to drive, lost in design. Were the other cars rattling like a '73 Dodge Van, and so the "rattles and squeaks" catergory was given 98% weighting? The results of this comparison are even more rediculous than the RL v M v GS comparo.

msu79gt82 · July 2005

An Infiniti has NEVER won an Edmunds comparo. And no Infiniti EVER will, at least as long as the current crop of editors are around.

On the page one summary the editors admitted the M35x would have won if they had liked the interior

"Laps at the Buttonwillow road course made the Infiniti feel like the winning ride. It had the biggest, stickiest tires, loads of power and an automatic that matches revs with every downshift. Like the BMW, the Infiniti was a driver's car that suffered lost points for the design of its interior." So the M35x had the best (editors opinion) ride/handling; but they penalized its interior :confuse:

I also noted on the page four M35x page that "if you also want an all-wheel-drive sport sedan that makes good noises and can still get sideways the M35x is the sedan of choice." Also "We rarely come across a car that would not be substantially improved with a V8 under the hood, the M35x is one of them. Its 3.5-liter V6 is so good there's no need for an upgrade" And finally "the Infiniti still got the lowest scores for interior design and materials quality."

So there you have it, based on performance the M35x won - they just didn't like it

:confuse:

lexusguy · July 2005

I also like how they threw in that little line at the beginning of the GS review "with the right options, the GS430..." to try and explain how the GS can win a comparo for being "Japan's best sports sedan" and at the same time, come in dead last for being "too soft". Way to be consistent there guys.

jrock65 · July 2005

LOL, that's what I'm saying.

In the "$50k" comparo, the GS is the best looking car (tie), but in the "AWD" comparo, the GS is the worst looking car.

In the "$50k" comparo, the RL is last in "entry/exit", but in the "AWD" comparo, the RL is first in "entry/exit".

I know that different reviewers are testing the cars, but when the same publication has wildly diverging and contradictory evaluations of the same aspects of the same car, it's hard to give any credibiltiy to the resulting "rankings".

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/104808/page004.html

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=106555/pageId=64917

ksoman · July 2005

before the launch: i wanted the RL to be THE car,
after the RL test drive: I was quite unimpressed with the package, though i thought it's the best car to drive through the twists/slaloms
best interior i liked: A6, will i buy it? hell no, i'm trying to get rid of the A6 i have right now...
my heart beats for: the new 530
i thought best bang for the buck: infinity M, but having tons of friends with horrendous infinity and nissan ownership experiences most specially rattles, bad paint and rusting all over the place kinda problems, i am very uncomfortable even thinking of it...
lexus: toooooooo soft and boring but i can sleep peacefully knowing it's the best thing i can buy after a solid block of gold
so what do i buy, none, none, none.

but aye aye aye, how the hell did the RL win this one?

lexusguy · July 2005

Agree. Based on the results of this comparison, the winner in C&D, for example, would probably be the M35x, or if not, the 530xi. C&D always focuses most on performance and handling, and to a lesser extent, bang for the buck, which should put the M in first place.

Edmunds, on the other hand, is all over the place. The guy in the $50K comparo was most interested in comfort, simple controls, and fancy gadgets, and thus the GS430's totalitarian stability computer, and the fact that it actually cost $60K were not enough to kick it out of first place.

This time it seems they wanted a "jack of all trades, master of none" car. That pretty much sums up the RL.

markcincinnati · July 2005

Here's another take: the Audi A6 was "inexpensive" -- not a bad thing, generally.

Yet, the Audi had somewhat "lame" tires and wheels on it.

The Audi lacked the toys that come with a couple of the options that can be had (for the sake of argument how about $4 - $5K in options.)

The Audi, could've been jacked up in price and had the navigation system, power rear sunshade, sat radio and 18" 245 x 40 wheels and tires (and truth be told, for another $250 the sport suspension set up.)

The fact that the human being liked, or so it seemed, the gadgets and toys, seemed to override the weighting on price. Yet a far more expensive BMW was thrown in the mix. For less money than the Bimmer and WITH both sat nav and sport package, the A6 coulda been configured with a V8.

Were we testing "like configured cars" or "closely price-matched cars" or cars in the color blue?

No fault of the editors of any of these comparos that the cars are seemingly not very closely matched by any stretch.

Were I to be the procurer of cars (assuming there is someone with this responsibility), I would certainly have tried to match the cars more closely.

The BMW finished THAT far down the list?

Holy cow, batman.

Now, reading this LPS AWD comparo I did, more or less, agree with the Audi Infinti ranking -- but that is just because that was my conclusion prior to pricing two "reasonably closely optioned" samples (on a monthly lease.)

I chose the Audi first without regard to price and chose the Infiniti first when price was regarded. When Audi and the dealer here in River City leveled the $ playing field, the inherent goodness of the Audi made the decision easy.

But, had Audi not come through with a good deal for me, I am certain the M35X would have been a deeeeeelightful ride.

The Acura's winning place also confused -- but then again I have NOT driven one, but it seems small and the styling is too much Accord-like for me.

How about giving a $ budget that can only deviate +/- 2.5%, configure the cars as closely as possible within that range and let the chips fall where they may.

Key to this working would be to test all the LPS guys with auto trans and NOTE the BMW can be had with a stick, just as it was noted that the Audi could be had with a V8. If all the cars are available with 18" wheels and tires, order them that way -- in my experience wheels and tires can make a HUGE difference in the overall impression of a car both from behind the wheel and from a styling standpoint.

If one car has a HIGH PERFORMANCE option, but none of the other ones do, well, equip them all with the standard level of refinement in that regard.

I am not suggesting I believe the Audi would have been more highly regarded than the Acura had it been equipped with navigation, sat radio and the high performance wheel/tire option -- I am suggesting that until these tests do as much as possible to level the playing field within a given mfg's option list, that these comparisons are both objectively and subjectively of less substance and that little credence can be paid to the rankings.

The egos and strong opinions (that we all have, generally) of the editors and reviewers makes these readings entertaining but something less than useful (until a half dozen reviewers not affiliated with each other point out similar "traits" or reach similar conclusions, that is.)

Why not test all cars with white exteriors and gray leather interiors, all with the same size wheels and tires, same appointments, same style of transmission, etc. Subjectivity would be diminished, somewhat. I can only assume there are editors and reviewers who do not like "sand metallic" and beige leather interiors -- so when they get into an otherwise fine car that is so colored, perhaps their dislike of this color combo leads them to downgrade that particular car somewhat -- especially if they love red metallic with a black alcantara interior and one of the other cars is so equipped.

I believe I have read reviews where the writer mused "what were they thinking . . .putting a day-glow-yellow leather interior in a black gloss colored car?"

The options and configurations that can be used to tailor any one of these cars makes some sort of leveling of the playing field more and more needed.

Yet, then again, C & D did a $55,000 comparison -- and of course the Audi could be had with AWD, Sport suspension and upgraded wheels and tires and a V8, whereas the other guys couldn't. This seems to produce an entertaining read, but, again, not a particularly useful read.

Hopefully some magazine will assemble the usual suspects configured as close as can be, practically, to each other, test them -- and then write the story.

cstiles · July 2005

This now makes AT LEAST 5 different comparos of these particular cars, although admittedly the cars were equipped a bit differently in several tests. The only car that has been equipped the same in every comparo is the RL, since that car only comes one way. And at the best street price, to boot. Acura deserves credit for that. It pretty much puts your chips in one stack...take it or leave it.

We can put on our white lab coats and analyze this til the cows come home, but let's face it....the RL has ranked highly in every single comparo involving 20 or more individual testers and self-proclaimed "experts." And obviously the value quotient is one of the RL's trump cards. Value means a lot to most of us. But value is sometimes hard to glean from a pile of statistics.

Very interesting to me that the GS can literally place first in one test, and dead last in another test, based solely on suspension tuning and drivetrain. But I don't necessarily disagree with that conclusion, either.

Is it time for Edmunds to limit the size of these posts to 200 words or less? We should be able to make our points without writing the next Harry Potter novel.

lexusguy · July 2005

I agree that for what you get for about $45K, the RL is a pretty good value. If this comparison was about what car delivers the most for the least, then I could understand its first place finish. The fact is though, if you're willing to spend a bit more, the A6 and M35 are just better cars.

jrock65 · July 2005

I do like the RL, and it deserves its place among the top in most of the comparos. But fact is, if you take away the Edmunds comparos (where you know going in that the Infiniti won't win), the M has won almost all of the comparos out there (C&D, R&T, Motortrend).

Interestingly, the "benchmark" 5 hasn't won a single one ever since the new one came out. I'm not saying that comparos are the end all and be all, but I'd think a benchmark would win at least one.

Regardless, it is a joy to drive that machine. The 550i is going to be a monster (albeit an expensive monster).

dhamilton · July 2005

Hilarious....... There are some Honda haters in the place. I think the RL won fair and square based on the criteria, Luxury, Performance, Value. Say it with me students " Luxury, Performance, Value" Not on just performance [where the bmw would win] Not just on the car that makes the owner file for chapter 11 based on car repair bills [where the bmw would win] Not just on best interior where the lexus would win. Not just on a car that would bore the driver to sleep and cause a horrific interstate pile up [where the lexus would win] Not on a combination of interior, and performance [where the audi would win] [ I have no sarcasm for the Audi, I love it.] But on the three aforementioned benchmarks. Luxury, Performance, and Value. Some of Y'all hate the RL like I hate the 49' ers

rich545 · July 2005

Honestly, comparos are useless if they are looked at as a whole. They really only have relevance if you focus on what's important to YOU about the cars being compared. Meaning, if comfort is your thing, focus on the car that wins the comfort battle. If performance is your thing focus on that car, and so on. If all are equally important you're probably being somewhat unrealistic, but you still have to realize that the people doing the comparos are still just stating THEIR opinions. They may not be your's as well. I've said this before here, but how many of us have liked movies that movie critics bash on? I've liked a lot of them so I take the reviews I read with a grain of salt and go see what I want to see. Same with cars. I read the reviews, then I go drive the cars and see if I agree. Often I do not, sometimes I do. Car reviewers are no more or less biased than any of us, and they really aren't professional anythings.

dhamilton · July 2005

Other than profesional car reviewers. :confuse:

bondguy1 · July 2005

Like I've been saying from the start when I looked at the Audi A6 and the M35..Both had great performance with the M35 winning out in 0-60...it is quicker. But, again, this is MY OPINION, I am not racing anyone. I wanted a car that had an interior that was worthy of a car in this price range. And, I think the Audi A6 outclasses all cars in interior design in this price class and above. I think as far as the magazine review goes, they hit the nail on the head. For me, at least, the M35 was too over-gadgetized and I think that there are a lot of people obviously that go for that and that's what's important to them. I wanted a world class car and I think the A6 fits the bill best for all around best car (not to mention Double-Best Pick in safety). If Audi can just get a better reputation which will take a few years of lowering there problems, they will earn a lot of new buyers in years to come. As long as they don' t pull the kind of stuff in 3 years from now that they did this year with Mark with pricing and seeming to not care, I would probably be leasing another Audi again.

rich545 · July 2005

Right, but you understand what I mean. They are professionals in that they are paid to review cars. But they are still just expressing opinions. It's not as if they are any more qualifed to express their opinions or evaluate cars than most of us. What they do have going for them is that generally they get to test more cars for longer than we get to. That, and they get to drive really awesome cars like the Mercedes SLR McLaren!

kdshapiro · July 2005

If one looks through the reviews on the net the 5 series is constantly lauded on it's ability to deliver the #1 driving experience. So while some reviewers have bashed the exterior, interior, idrive, reliability etc, they all agree the 5 drives like a dream.

So there seems to be a big disconnect between the reviewers and the sales of 5, which are quite good compared to the competitors in it's space.

The people are voting with their pocketbooks, which is the review that really counts to BMW.

jjacura · July 2005

"The fact is though, if you're willing to spend a bit more, the A6 and M35 are just better cars."

Some how I can't see you owning and driving an A6. But if the Infiniti improved their interior quality I believe that would come close to what you really like.

dhamilton · July 2005

It's not a fact. It's your opinion. And we all know what they are just like :P

lexusguy · July 2005

Oh I've driven them, but own, no not yet. I've really got to see Audi do better in long term reliability if an Audi is going to be my daily driver.

cstiles · July 2005

The fact is though, if you're willing to spend a bit more, the A6 and M35 are just better cars.

Lexusguy---no, this is not a fact. This is your opinion.

And we respect that.

90% of what's in these comparos and also on these boards are just opinions. Let's not confuse them with facts.

chef_jmr · July 2005

NEW THOUGHT (it's late, I had some great Burgundy (red) tonight, and I'm tired of discussing the supposed "Real Estate Bubble"):

I have always consider the "value proposition" when making any purchase (digital cameras, big screen TVs, cellphones, computers, cars...even some wine!) However, we are discussing Luxury Performance Sedans; do we look for value in Luxury items? Luxury goods are those that we purchase, not out of need, but desire...?

In the comparo, where the "Audi A6 snagged a distant second", the writer states the RL has a "standard features list that'll impress the neighbors" (value?) but "lacks in distinctive styling" (luxury?). If it lacks in one area-- luxury--how does it "win" a comparison by a long-shot? What defines the luxury in today's autos? Where does technology surpass fit,finish,materials and styling in a luxury auto?

Chime in...good night.

greenbelt · July 2005

I agree with your self assessment.

Your writings here take up a great deal more space than your preferences about cars do in the marketplace.

CR, like JDPowers, represents a broad swath of the automobile buyers and goes far beyond the appliance-seeking under-35 family of four. THE dominate segment of buyers of virtually everything in the U.S. economy for the last 40 years, from toys to bikes to college educations to cars to homes to vacations with the grandchildren,has been the now-graying 50+ year old baby boomers.

The car companies that are addressing this segment with high quality, reliable, sylish, good performing cars are gaining share and making lots of money. Those that aren't dispite adoring fans that love to rant here and there, aren't.

frisconick · July 2005

I think many Acuras are judged as, not doing anything one thing great, but do everything very good. And how can anyone hate the RL or the 49ers :P

dhamilton · July 2005

As far as the forty-niners go, I grew up in the seventies in nor-Cal and everybody loved the Steelers, and hated the niners. When the niners started winning, everyone jumped ship.
As far as the RL, I think this is one of the most controversial cars in a while as far as people either hate it, or love it. I realize the design is accord-esque, but it seems like people are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It's kind of like the love em, or hate em attitude towards the last two presidents. Very few people in the middle. If any of the other cars would have won I don't think there would have been as near as much weeping and nashing of teeth. At the same time I'm one of those Acura people that loves almost everything that they put out.. All of this again is just my opinion. All of the cars were awesome and if given one of them, I'm sure not to many of us would complain. Those that would, would complain if they were hung with a brand new rope.....

bondguy1 · July 2005

I think that a lot of people if they are happy with there current brand go along with it again...maybe it's the extra loyalty or the no termination fee on a lease that may do it for them. I know that they gave me loyalty of $1,500 on Audi and waived my disposition fee of $250 from my 02'. These aren't the only reasons but sometimes it's just out of convenience. To some people it's just a car and Lexus stands for reliability and quality just like BMW stands for performance. Not that you can't get both in any other or either of these two but most people that I know that drive Lexus whether the LS or GS get another one every three years when lease expires. Nobody I know ever leased an Infinity before the G35 or M35 but maybe those two cars IMO single handedly changed the Infinity company reputation for being able to compete in the sporty and luxury brand sedan markey...because you never see older model M45's on the road (rarely) or Q45's for that matter. Am I right?

cstiles · July 2005

The reason you see so few older gen M45s or Q45s is because Infiniti sold relatively few of them in the first place. It's just simple numbers.

Lexus has sold 10 times as many automobiles as Infiniti over the past decade, spanning mulitple segments. They have established a significant base of brand loyalty. Here in the conservative Midwest, there are still thousands of people who just buy one Buick or Cadillac after another every 3 years. There are fewer of these people with each year, but there are still quite a few based on what I see on the road.

You said: "G35 or M35 but maybe those two cars IMO single handedly changed the Infinity company reputation for being able to compete in the sporty and luxury brand sedan markey..."

I think it's much too early to conclude that. I think it takes 3 to 5 years of sustained market acceptance and credibility to reach that point. Lexus has earned that. BMW and Mercedes have earned that. Audi, Infiniti, and Acura are still scratching to try to get there, although each has begun to carve out their unique niches.

jrock65 · July 2005

2005 Consumer Reports - AWD Mid-Luxury Sedan Comparison

The Audi came in the 2nd place again, which is a good consistant showing for Audi. The A6 had the best fuel economy, but got a low score for controls & displays. The RL placed more at the bottom this time and got a low score for trunk space and controls & displays . The GS got the lowest scores for emergency handling and driving position. The STS placed mid-pack, but didn't get good scores for fit & finish and trunk space. The M got a low score for trunk space and fuel economy as did the others with 18 MPG. Trunk space was an issue for all of them. The GS and A6 had the best scores for noise. The M35x is now CR's overall top rated sedan.

1. Infiniti M35x
2. Audi A6 3.2 Quattro
3. Cadillac STS V6
4. Acura RL
5. Lexus GS300 AWD

Infiniti M35x:
0-60 MPH - 7.0 Seconds
60-0 MPH - 128 Feet
Fuel Economy - 18 MPG

Audi A6 3.2 Quattro:
0-60 MPH - 7.7 Seconds
60-0 MPH - 129 Feet
Fuel Economy - 21 MPG

Cadillac STS V6:
0-60 MPH - 7.1 Seconds
60-0 MPH - 131 Feet
Fuel Economy - 18 MPG

Acura RL:
0-60 MPH 6.9 Seconds
60-0 MPH 131 Feet
Fuel Economy - 18 MPG

Lexus GS300 AWD:
0-60 MPH - 7.4 Seconds
60-0 MPH - 133 Feet
Fuel Economy - 20 MPG

Credit: DrewSRX

jrock65 · July 2005

This is how the luxury sedans now rank, according to Consumer Reports:

1. Infiniti M35x
2. Mercedes-Benz E320
3. BMW 530i
4. Audi A6 3.2 Quattro
5. Cadillac STS V6
6. Acura RL
7. Jaguar S-Type 4.2
8. Lexus GS300 AWD
9. Volvo S80 T6

Previously, the Lexus LS430 and E39 BMW 5-Series were the best luxury sedans.

Credit: DrewSRX

hpowders · July 2005

According to the last issue of CR, the Avalon was supposed to be included. I'm glad they went with the GS instead. I eliminated the GS because I found it difficult to manipulate the seats to find a comfortable driving position. I see CR agrees with me.
I pick up my new 545i tomorrow.

frisconick · July 2005

Not Steeler fans in nor-Cal, we hated the Steelers, Raider fans in the 70's :P

Yes, these are all truely great cars. I am a new fan of Acura and think the TL is a far more exciting design than the RL, however, I test drove the RL and loved it.

markcincinnati · July 2005

Every month someone posts the sales results for the LPS family here on edmunds. At the top of the list, often, is the BMW 5 (sometimes the Mercedes E), at the bottom of the list, often, is the Acura RL or the Audi A6.

The 530xi (and the 255HP 5 series) havent been out long enough to determine what, if any, impact the new urge and AWD will have for the BMW, but there is local evidence that the new engine and the availability of AWD will only serve to make the BMW more popular.

Regardless of what edmunds editors or Car and Driver editors, etc, have to say on the subject, it is clear that the BMW 5 series is selected (by customers) about 3 times more often than either the Acura or the Audi. The Infiniti, Acura and Audi may have beaten the BMW time after time based on comparison test reports and one-off reports such as the ones in national newspapers (USA Today comes to mind.)

None of these compares has, apparently, done much, if any damage to BMWs perception in the market place by those who are buying the cars. Heck, Audis A6 came out on top in Automobile magazines comparison report  yet Audi still fights for its place at or near the bottom of the sales reports month after month.

Moreover, based only on MSRP, the BMW is often much more money or is lower in content than the Japanese LPS cars; and, a BMW 5 and an Audi A6 when comparably equipped often demonstrates a significant price disadvantage for the BMW  yet it still easily outsells the Audi.

Clearly BMW  for whatever reason  is able to market a car that people want regardless of what is said here and in the automotive press.

So, as a member of the BMW club (by virtue of my wife buying a 2005 X3), I went to the BMW Store here in Cincinnati yesterday and asked for a test drive of a new 530xi.

I was given the keys to a $54,500 530xi with the new 6speed Steptronic transmission. I was told that stick shifts and sport package equipped versions (and the sport package does NOT include either bigger wheels and tires or sport suspension) are ordered cars only. In fact, the car I was given was an ordered car, for it had a $1200 option that the BMW Client Rep claimed was a waste  it had comfort seats. BTW, no matter what I did, I could NOT get comfortable in these seats, despite their multiple power articulated capabilities.

A $54,500 the 530xi is, believe it or not, a strippie  no upgraded sound system, no satellite navigation, but skinny 225 x 50 x 17 A/S tires and wheels were part of the deal. Although there are really great and colorful interior combinations offered by BMW, this 5 series was built with the popular (apparently) black on black on black interior color combinations  it was confining and depressing. Black gloss wood built into a black dashboard and the interior was awash with dull black leather. The fit and finish, however, was great.

My personal dislike of black interiors is just that, personal. I was told that the black gloss wood could be replaced with birch gloss wood  that would have really been a major improvement. Indeed the interior of this car could only be described as stark.

Otherwise, the BMW 530xi automatic was clearly tight, fairly responsive, adequately powered (in the same way that an Audi A6 3.2 can be said to be adequately powered.) The 6 speed Steptronic transmission works virtually the same way as the Audi Tiptronic works  i.e., it thinks it is smarter (in full auto mode) than the driver. Thankfully, just like the tip, the step can be shifted manually. Oddly, the Steptronic upshifts when pulled back and downshifts when pushed forward. This seems backwards to me, and I believe it has nothing to do with the fact that the Audi tip is programmed exactly the opposite.

I could easily get used to either configuration  I just wish all the manumatics behaved with the same logic. Pick one, that is my message.

The 5 needed the extra grunt the new engine offers. The torque seems to come on a little later than either the M35X or the A6 3.2. The 530xi does not feel slow, but it is, to repeat, only adequately quick. Both the Acura and the Infiniti clearly have more urge than the BMW. Subjectively, the A6 between 0  80mph feels slightly peppier.

The new 530xi configured as the one I drove (no sport, unimpressive wheels and tires, etc.) clearly emphasizes luxury. At 85mph it felt like it was barely moving  it was very quiet and stable. Even at 95mph the car did not seem to be in any way even breathing heavily. This new BMW could, were it legal, make the 100 mile run between Cincinnati and Columbus a quiet, comfortable one hour ride, of this I am convinced.

This car was not floaty at all; it was very very comfortable and very very quiet. Even the engines sweet sounds were mostly muted even at full throttle at high RPMs. This is so uncharacteristically BMW, I was slightly disappointed. One of the things I really like about the Audi 4.2 V8 and 3.2FSI engines is the sound they make at full cry. Even the M35X makes more noise than the 530xi  although the Ms engine lacks the refinement of either the Audi or the BMW.

Im used to BMWs turbine-like engines, and although I know it was there, it was muted  too much.

The car was under-tired and although it was typical BMW responsive, it easily pushed its skinny, 50 series, H-rated rubber beyond its comfort zone. I dont know how much the 18 wheel/tire option costs  it has to be worth whatever it costs, however. I would can the $1200 comfort seats and get the up rated and bigger shoes. Indeed, I would get the free transmission and cut the costs an additional $1250, too. I dont know how much it would cost, but it would seem that the new 530xi would be an even better compromise of luxury and sport if it had been equipped with the bigger wheels and tires, manual transmission, sat nav and high zoot stereo.

My guess is, that it still would have had its wonderful engine still muted too much, isolated its passengers from the road a little bit more than I would like (but I say the same about the A6), but these swap changes wouldve transformed this car from the Buick of BMWs into the car that I, for one, always imagined it really is, the BMW of LPSs.

But, why even bother? When you are, repeatedly, the sales leader  nothin you or I say (and no review penned by edmunds editors either) matters. People are voting with their dollars. BMW is on a roll.

The buyer at Ohios largest BMW dealers revelation that no stick shifts and no sport packages will be ordered for inventory, tells me something else. People apparently want a gentrified (Buick-like?) BMW 5  the BMW buyer orders what sells, not what is the most inspiring and enjoyable performer. Luxury is first and foremost, Performance must be, to quote an edmunds review, a distant second.

Drive it like you live.

lexusguy · July 2005

Interesting report. I think part of the reason the 5 still sells so well here is that I'm willing to bet that many buyers either arent aware of new competition such as the M35, or they simply arent interested in paying $40+ for an Acura or Infiniti badge. The E still sells at the top too, despite the fact that its now much older than most of the class. That makes me think that people are buying it because of the 3-pointed star, and not because it and the 5 series are still the best cars in the class. BMW selling a lot of luxury leaning 5s backs up my hypothesis. These buyers arent interested in slalom speeds.

While you were testing the 530xi, I was at Audi\MB\Porsche in Hunt Valley, and the keys being handed to me were for a brand new 911 Carrera Cabrio with the 6-speed - the only one they had. The sales guy actually caught some heat for letting me drive it at all. An absolutely amazing car.. I was over 120mph on the highway, and having the top down at that speed was no problem. In my XKR, the wind gets out of control around 80mph. Oh, if only used Porches were affordable. Anyway, that should prove that at least some of us Lexus drivers still know what a real driving experience is. If Lexus could make the SC430 a little more like the 911 Cabrio and a little less like a 2-door ES330, I might actually be interested.

merc1 · July 2005

Very interesting results, but is that really the E320 or did you mean the E350? Has CR tested a E350 yet?

M

merc1 · July 2005

The E still sells at the top too, despite the fact that its now much older than most of the class. That makes me think that people are buying it because of the 3-pointed star, and not because it and the 5 series are still the best cars in the class.

The E and 5-Series still sit at the top of the charts due in part to status, but more importantly they offer much more choice than anyone else, especially the E-Class. Only Audi offers awd on both their V6 and V8 sedans, but MB has wagons with a V8 or a V6 with or without awd, a diesel, and a AMG models that now comes in wagon form too. The most awesome people carrier on the market, the E55 "Estate" as they say over there. Now why the new A6 isn't doing better is beyond me, it offers as much choice (minus a AMG-like model and the diesel which are niche models) in sedans as Mercedes does.

M

jrock65 · July 2005

The dramatically redesigned RL went on sale last year as an all-new model featuring a 3.5-liter VTEC V-6 engine and the groundbreaking Super Handling All-Wheel Drive system. The increased performance, exciting new styling and an assortment of exciting interior features have pushed the RL to record sales in 2005. For 2006, Acura introduces an optional Technology Package for the RL, which adds three advanced new features:

* Collision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) - uses a grille-mounted radar unit, motorized seatbelt E-pretentioners on the drivers and front passengers seats and an automatic braking system to monitor potential frontal collisions and help reduce the impact on occupants by alerting the driver, tensioning the seatbelts and slowing the vehicle.
* Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC)  To compensate for changing traffic flow, ACC adjusts vehicle speed automatically by applying throttle and/or brake to maintain a consistent following distance.
* Michelin PAX Run-Flat tires - helps provide enhanced safety and security with continuous mobility of up to 125 miles at up to 50 mph following a tire puncture.

New horsepower/torque ratings: 290 horsepower SAE net (Rev 8/04) at 6200 rpm, 256 lbs-ft torque SAE net (Rev 8/04) at 5000 rpm

sergeym · July 2005

I drove 2006 M35x several times and honestly believe that my 2005 545 is a better car. Actually M35X felt underpowered even compared to my 2002 540.

lexusguy · July 2005

"record sales in 2005"

Heh. Some nice spin there. Sales are up 200%!... over a car that was selling 700 units a month.

jrock65 · July 2005

"Actually M35X felt underpowered even compared to my 2002 540."

Well, that's not surprising. The 540i has a stronger V8 engine and is lighter, while the M35x is a V6 and is encumbered by the weight of an AWD system.

mnrep2 · August 2005

You would need to drive the M45 for a more direct comparison. RWD, and a V8. The M35X is a V6 and AWD. Yes it should feel slower than the 540/545 :surprise:

syswei · August 2005

While the number of available choices plays a role I think that the brand is a bigger reason for sales performance. The M comes in 3 primary flavors...if you take the 3-biggest-selling 5-series variants, they still total a higher number of units than the Infiniti M.

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