Jetta TDI, Civic Hybrid, or Prius?

z28_sedan · March 2005

Just thought of some more.

Things I like about Jetta TDI:
16. Was able to find a used 2002 with 80K miles for $10,500 (I couldn't touch even a higher mileage or older used Prius for that).
17. This overlaps with some of the others, but the excellent handling and braking means better crash avoidance than other cars.

Things I don't like about my Jetta TDI:
5. Very bad sounding stereo. I have the Monsoon and am very disappointed in the sound...very tinny.
6. On the used market the wagon price is $4-5K higher than the sedan (I really wanted a wagon, but for that price difference, I'll just live with the sedan and make two trips if necessary).
7. Poorly placed cup holders block CD player when in use.

yerth10 · March 2005

Its not
Jetta TDI, Civic Hybrid or Prius
Its should be
Jetta TDI & Civic Hybrid & Prius & Escape Hybrid.

At this point of time with high gas prices, we need both Hybrid & Diesel.

joebeatt · March 2005

*** Diesel engines are unaffected by altitude ***

Yes, but this only applies to turbo diesels. And even then:

http://www.kraftpower.com/solutions-godwin.html

--- Offering a reliable turbocharged engine is very important as mining operations move ever higher. Power loss on a normally aspirated engine can go as high as three percent per thousand feet of elevation, says Abbott. With a turbo, the loss is less than a half a percent per thousand feet.---

Still, I agree with you that turbos perform well at altitude.

I believe you when you tell that your diesels kept on working in Arctic conditions. If you prepare your diesel well, it will do very well in cold conditions.

However, sometimes "normal" car users do not prepare their diesel or temperatures drop below the cloud point of the type of winter diesel they happen to have in their tank. Then they have a problem that a gas engine will not have in the same conditions. Although it will certainly happen very seldomly, it is still a minus point for the Jetta.

prospectus · March 2005

FYI, I live in the plains, it occasionally gets to 10 below zero here, but certainly no mountains to contend with (or hills for that matter).

joebeatt · March 2005

Sorry electrictroy, for my remark "What do you want to prove with this mountain story?" in my posting #54. I thought that your posting #51 was completely out of sync, because I read it in the context of the previous postings. Now I realize that the only thing you probably did was bringing up a completely new item in the Prius, Civic, Jetta forum. Luckily the two discussions that resulted, the one on Prius hill climbing and diesel at low temperatures, still made sense and could be quite informative, I guess, for someone who wants to decide on what car to buy.

electrictroy · March 2005

I monitor both TDI & Prius forums. TDI owners complain about soot clogging the intake (requires cleaning), but NEVER cold weather. After all, these things are designed for cold European winters.

Prius owners complain about running out of battery halfway up a mountain. With the Honda you can shift to a lower gear (2nd or 3rd), but Prius does not have that option. Prius turns into a turtle.

Troy

dszjgl · March 2005

Electric toy wrote: Prius owners complain about running out of battery halfway up a mountain. With the Honda you can shift to a lower gear (2nd or 3rd), but Prius does not have that option. Prius turns into a turtle.
====================

I've run up 3000' vertical at 25-40 mph with reserve battery power at the end topping at 10,000 ft MSL with snow covered road. But I haven't run up I-70 from Denver to the continental divide, I-80 from Sacramento to Tahoe, or I-17 from Phoenix to Flagstaff. Those are the 5000' climbs I'd like to hear about for anyone who's tried it. If I'm forced to 40mph in turtle mode, I'll just have to join the trucks in the right lane since I've already bought a Prius. However, downshifting in the Civic hybrid to 3rd wouldn't get me much above 40 without red-lining anyway.

My personal favorite would be a diesel hybrid with the utility of an AWD wagon or small SUV.

dolphin · March 2005

How does one get the $1/gal tax incentive? I am in FL. TIA.

gagrice · March 2005

The incentive is 1 penny for each percent biodiesel in the mixture. B20 gets 20 cents. B100 get a dollar to the producer to keep the price equal with conventional diesel fuel.

blueiedgod · March 2005

I went to the VW to test drive the remaining 2005 VW's hoping to find TDI. Apparantley TDI's have been outlawed in NY state because they don't comply with new emissions. I was sent to the use lot where they had one 2002 Jetta TDI. I drove it, although it is much slower than I expected it to be, the torque is apparent. I think VW geared it for economy. I could get the car going without accelerator, just by dropping the clutch, and the engine did not bog, nor RPM's dropped.
Their asking price was $17,500 for a 2002 JEtta TDI with 48,000 miles. I walked. The brand new 1.8T GLS/GLI??, on the new lot is marked at $17,800 no haggle price.

Too bad for Jetta, I could have been an owner had they started at a more resonable price for a 3 year old car with almost 50,000 miles. They told me how rare these are, and blah blah. All I could see is a 3 year old car with 50,000 miles, and they are asking the same for it as the new one. If the 1.8T MSRP is $22K, and the selling price now is $17,800, the TDI's selling price, in states where it is sold is probably close to the $18K mark. The used one is not worth more than $10 -$12K to me. Gas savings or not, that is too much money for a used car.

z28_sedan · March 2005

Was it a wagon for that price? If not, the dealer was dreaming (and still high priced even if it is a wagon). You have to look around. TDIs are semi-rare. Do a search on Autotrader.com and you'll probably find lots for decent prices. That car should go for ~$11-14K depending on shape, warranty, options, etc.

Be aware that the 2004+ TDIs have even more torque and horsepower than the 2002 you drove. 2004+ have 100 hp, 177 ft-lbs tq while 99-03 have 90 hp, 155 ft-lbs tq. That's 11% more hp and almost 15% more torque.

electrictroy · March 2005

TROY: "Prius owners complain about running out of battery halfway up a mountain. With the Honda you can shift to a lower gear (2nd or 3rd), but Prius does not have that option. Prius turns into a turtle."

DSZJGL:"I've run up 3000' vertical at 25-40 mph"

==========================================

25-40 mph? As I said... Prius is a turtle.

I climbed Eisenhower pass in my Insight, 3rd gear, at 60 miles an hour. You can shift down in a Honda or TDI... you can't in the Prius.

Troy

gagrice · March 2005

25-40 mph? As I said... Prius is a turtle.

If a car cannot keep up with traffic on any of the Interstate highways or freeways it should be banned. They have laws pertaining to just that issue. Motorcycles have to have a certain HP rating to get on the freeways, the same should apply to cars. Going 25-40 MPH even in the right lane is a hazard. With trucks you can see them from way off and make lane adjustments. Small cars going slow will sneak up on you. The minimum on most Interstates is 45 mph. If a car cannot maintain that up the steepest grades they should be ticketed.

electrictroy · March 2005

I don't think there's a minimum speed on mountain inclines. It's understood that cars will climb slower.

Also, to repeat, the Hondas have the ability to shift to lower gears, so they can climb at 60 mph.

troy

prospectus · March 2005

I bet people driving 70 mph up a mountain are getting great gas mileage

electrictroy · March 2005

About 30mpg (still good!)...

...but you should see what I got going down the other side (engine off = 0 gallons burned = Infinite MPG)!

Overall, I found I could still average 90 mpg going over a mountain. Of course the thin air at 10,000 feet really helped reduce air resistance.

troy

gagrice · March 2005

Of course the thin air at 10,000 feet really helped reduce air resistance.

The best mileage I ever got (36 mpg), with my 1978 Honda Accord was going through Colorado. I did not think about the thin air. Just figured it was all the downhill coasting.

karkus · April 2005

I find it hard believe all the disinformation being spread about the PRIUS. I've gone through the Eisenhower tunnel (11000ft) in Colorado on I-70 at least a dozen times. The PRIUS can go above the speed limit (generally 65) on the entire 5500 ft climb from Denver to the Tunnel, except for the last half mile where it drops into the low 60s. The only time it ever drops down to 60 MPH is on the long 8% grade to the Eisenhower tunnel coming from the west, after the battery runs out (and that's with 3 people and ski gear in the car). The speed limit there is 60 MPH there and I've been in several other cars who can't achieve that. The comment about "25-40" above was clearly not meant to imply that this is the top speed of the Prius with an empty battery.

Also, the statement about not being "able" to downshift PRIUS makes no sense.
It has a power split device that acts like a variable transmission. Very simple and light, very maintenance free, and very easy and smooth to drive! In a manual car you worry about which gear might be better and whether overreving will hurt your car, and you lose power and get jerked around in the process of shifting. In the PRIUS you just set the cruise and let the computer take car of finding the max power/efficiency for you. There's NO jerky shifting and NO overreving worries.

The 2004-2005 PRIUS will easily keep up with (or pass) any Jetta TDI (1.8or1.9L), Insight, or Civic hybrid. It has more HP (110), Torque (295) and equal or better 0-60 (9.8s Motortrend) than any of those others.

Also, I don't understand all this uninformed PRIUS bashing. I would think hybrid owners would support each other in promoting this great, clean new technology. The only thing I can think of is that the Insight and TDI owners feel threatened by the unprecented popularity, numerous awards, low pollution, and great performance of the PRIUS. Don't be threatened - just enjoy your car and tell others how great it is. But really, there's no need to spread misinformation about other cars.

dixonr · April 2005

Let me tell you about Prius speed. I spend a lot of time between Houston and New Orleans and have had Prius's fly by me doing well over 80 several times. They aren't designed for speed but they sure have it. The first time I saw it I was supprised it was a Prius.
Guess the rest of the world is wrong and Troy is right. Prius sold over 10,000 units in north america. I'd bet serious money insight didn't sell 1,000 in the last 2 months. I don't even own a prius, I'm considering a liberty diesel to pull a boat with. I think the person who stated we need all was correct. I don't think we'll be seing sustained oil below $40 bbl anytime soon. :P

electrictroy · April 2005

Look, I just don't like the prius. Not everyone does, and you shouldn't expect them to. When I test-drove the prius, it didn't feel right. Also it has certain quirks that make me wary:

- Can't use 10W-30 or 5W-40, else the "check engine" light turns on... and might leave you sitting
- Strange fuel bladder that only accepts ~8 gallons... and makes re-fueling difficult & time-consuming
- A gas gauge that would be better called a "guess" gauge because it's not accurate
- If the battery or electrical system dies, you're out-of-luck. Can't move anywhere (with the hondas, the car can still operate as a non-hybrid).

I like how the Prius *looks*... I just don't like how it acts.

The purpose of this thread is to give your honest opinion, and I gave mine.

I'm sorry you don't like it. That's life. (shrug)

troy

karkus · April 2005

Yes, everyone knows that you don't like the PRIUS. That's OK, but please stop spreading disinformation, half-truths, out-of-context quotes, and lies about the PRIUS. The Prius will continue to outsell the Insight about 100 to 1 regardless of your efforts, probably because most people think (sometimes incorrectly) that they need something bigger than a 2seater. Personally, I would recommed the Insight or Prius to anyone, depending on whether they need a 2 seater/commuting car or a midsize sedan. Yes, neither car is perfect, but the bottom line is that they are both great and serve different needs. The don't really compete against each other, so what's the point in bashing?

1) The Prius will run on any regualr oil and NOT leave you stranded. There have been no reports of this! In my opinion, it's GREAT that the Prius lets you know when the incorrect oil was used. The 5W-30 oil in the Prius is easy to find and cheap. The 0w-20 required for the Insight is not nearly as common.

2) The fuel bladder reduces emissions (the main goal of the Prius is reduced smog emission - the MPG is just a side benefit). That's one of the reasons the Prius (sold in CA) gets a 9.5 out of 10 on the EPA Green Vehicle Guide Air Polltion Score. Troy's manual Insight only got a 3 out of 10 ! However, you can get a CVT Insight which scores a 9 ! By the way, both the Prius and Insight score a 10 on the Greenhouse Gas Emissions. Yes, the Insight get better MPG, but that is to be expected because it's lighter and has about 40% less interior volume than the Prius.

3) Most people now get ~9-10 gallons in their tank. Yes, there was a problem early on with gas gauges (and problems caused by bad high sulfur gas), but that has been fixed. Considering how many hybrid discussion boards you troll, you ought to know that by now.

4) All cars today have electrical systems (and computers), and NONE of them will run without it. However, no "regular" cars will run when you run out of gas, neither will mild hybrids like the Insight. The Prius on the other hand, can get you to a gas station a couple miles away on battery alone !
By the way, the 12V battery which start up the Prius (computer) can be jump started just like in any car.

electrictroy · April 2005

"That's OK, but please stop spreading disinformation, half-truths, out-of-context quotes, and lies about the PRIUS."

.

I demand an apology. I don't lie. And people are STILL complaining about the guess gauge. It has NOT been fixed.

troy

karkus · April 2005

First of all, sorry to everyone for getting off topic. This forum is supposed to be about the Jetta TDI, Civic and Prius. It makes sense not to talk about the Insight since it's a totally different class of car. Sorry for getting drawn off topic, but it's difficult not to respond when the Prius is getting attacked with inaccurate info. I won't mention the Insight again here.

Troy, OK, you're not a liar in the strict definition. SORRY.
Now please stop using outdated and out-of-context "information", and we could all get along better and actually discuss the true merits and problems of these cars.

Yes, some people still report gas gauge problems (some of those refuse to get the gas gauge fix because they are worried about the mechanics screwing up), but for me and many other early Prius buyers (late2003, early 2004), the TSB fix solved both the capacity and inaccuracy problems.

Let's all get back on topic:
I think the new 2004-2005 Prius beats the Civic Hybrid and Jetta TDI, but that's just an opinion. ( If you want to compare those to the old Prius, then it's a tossup, but that comparison is a bit outdated. Most Prius on the road are new ones.)
Also, I think we would all be better off if more people drove any of those 3 cars.

Kirstie_H · April 2005

Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat - it's open mic night, so come and discuss whatever's on your mind.

6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!

kirstie_h

Sylvia · April 2005

Now.

stevedebi · April 2005

"All cars today have electrical systems (and computers), and NONE of them will run without it. However, no "regular" cars will run when you run out of gas, neither will mild hybrids like the Insight. The Prius on the other hand, can get you to a gas station a couple miles away on battery alone !"

The complete picture is that the Prius will not run without it's hybrid traction battery. The HCH / HAH / Insight will run on ICE alone. That is what Troy was speaking about. It is not a question of the electrical system failing. It is a question of the main battery depleting (a rare occurance) or or the electrical propulsion system dying due to software failure (an even rarer occurrance, but it does happen - see the "Prius Software Problems" forum).

karkus · April 2005

"It is a question of the main battery depleting (a rare occurance) or or the electrical propulsion system dying due to software failure (an even rarer occurrance, but it does happen - see the "Prius Software Problems" forum)."

Actually, it seems to me that software problems are far more common than battery problems. Software problems clearly exist (see discussion board). However, I don't believe there have been any cases of a Prius dying because of the main battery becoming depleted, in part because the computer in the Prius won't let the charge level go below around ~40%. Even when the gas runs out, the Prius computer will shut off the car after a few miles, long before the battery gets totally depleted (although at that point I think it may not let you start the car again -not sure). Toyota stated that (in the 8 years of selling the Prius) they have NEVER had to replace an entire main battery due to it going bad somehow.

stevedebi · April 2005

"However, I don't believe there have been any cases of a Prius dying because of the main battery becoming depleted, in part because the computer in the Prius won't let the charge level go below around ~40%."

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I wasn't saying the battery would no longer hold a charge, just that the Civic is capable of running without any traction battery, which the Prius cannot manage. Different designs.

gagrice · April 2005

April 24, 2005

NEW CRASH TEST RESULTS:
VOLKSWAGEN NEW JETTA ACES SIDE IMPACT TEST;
ALSO EARNS GOOD RATING IN FRONTAL TEST

ARLINGTON, VA  The 2005 Volkswagen Jetta earned good ratings in both frontal offset and side impact crash tests conducted by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. Plus the Jetta is the first vehicle to earn the top rating of good in every individual measurement category (injury measures, head protection, and structural design) of the Institute's side impact test. This car is designated a "best pick" for side crash protection, and it's a good performer for frontal crash protection. The performance of the Jetta in these tests plus its acceptable rating for seat/head restraint design in rear impact tests make it the top-rated car overall in the inexpensive midsize class. The redesigned Jetta, which is larger than its predecessor model, was introduced in the 2005 model year, and these results apply to the new larger Jetta.

"The Jetta was the first vehicle to ace our side impact test," says Institute president Brian O'Neill. "It's the best performer among midsize inexpensive cars. Its structural performance was better than the second- and third-best models, the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. This new Jetta design shows what manufacturers can do to improve occupant protection in serious side impacts when cars are hit by taller and heavier SUVs and pickup trucks."

http://www.hwysafety.org/news_releases/2005/pr042405.htm

falconone · April 2005

The Prius (not sure about the HAH) has a five star safety rating for the driver. I believe I read 4 for the passenger. IIHS has not tested the Prius yet so don't go lining up for the Jetta just yet. Performance is not it's strong point. It will get to 60 in a hair under ten seconds which is quite close to the Prius. Then you have to take points off for the fact that it is a new VW which always seems to be plagued with teething problems in it's first year. Remember the new beetle? Stick with the hybrids folks... you're better off and you'll get twice the mileage.

pusterracing · April 2005

Then you have to take points off for the fact that it is a new VW which always seems to be plagued with teething problems in it's first year.

Unfortunately, this is mere speculation. And ANY new vehicle is going to have to get the bugs worked out. I wouldn't buy an 05 Corvette just because of the fact that it is a first year model........

Stick with the hybrids folks... you're better off and you'll get twice the mileage

Twice the mileage, eh? I AVERAGE 45mpg in my Jetta TDI, and I AVERAGE 36MPG in my Passat TDI......so you are telling me that the PRIUS and HCH AVERAGE 90MPG? And with that reasoning, I suppose the HAH averages 72MPG since the Passat averages 36?

Truth be told, they are all very good cars. Personally, Hybrid technology still being in it's infancy is why I don't use it....that and the fact that you have to pay such a PREMIUM to own it. What happens when the batteries fail and need to be replaced? Do you replace them at a very high cost percentage of the value of the vehicle? Or does the Hybrid just become a throw-away vehicle at that point?

Diesel is MATURE proven technology and until Hybrids have a good, strong mature track record, I'll continue to purchase diesels. I know they'll go 300-400K miles without having any engine problems what-so-ever, and still get exceptional mileage while doing so......

-PR-

03 Ford F350 SuperCrew KingRanch 6.0L Powerstroke
04 VW Jetta GLS TDI
05 VW Passat GLS TDI

molokai · April 2005

I doubt people will embrace diesels because of their stigma. They're quite a small market in the US and I think hybrids will outsell diesel cars in the coming years. I think the poster was referring to the gas Jetta which the Prius will double in mileage. As far as the TDI... well it's outlawed in numerous states for good reason. It pollutes too much.

pusterracing · April 2005

It pollutes too much.

This is actually another common misconception. There are 5 emissions categories..... Carbon Dioxide (CO2) or the "global warming gas", Carbon Monoxide (CO) which is poisonous, Hydrocarbons, Nitrouos Oxides (SMOG) and particulates.

Diesels emit less Carbon Dioxide, Carbon Monoxide and Hydrocarbons than comparable gasoline engines. The emit relatively the same levels of Nitrous Oxides as comparable gas engines. And they emit MORE particulates than gas engines.

So, that being said, Diesels are BETTER than gasoline engines in 3 out of 5 emissions categories, the same in 1 out of 5, and worse than gasoline engines in 1 out of 5 categories.

well it's outlawed in numerous states

Are you referring to the states that will not allow me (if I lived in them) to purchase an Jetta or Passat TDI (with small 4 cyl diesels), but will allow me to purchase a one-ton truck with a large 8 cylinder diesel? Those states? Which do you think will emit more, a 1.9L TDI engine or a 6.0L Powerstroke diesel? It's a contradiction if you ask me......

All that being said, yes, if hybrids ever came down to a realistic price, they will more than likely outsell diesels. But, with ULSD I expect to see more diesel offerings in the US in the coming years (speculation on my end now).

-PR-

03 Ford F350 SuperCrew KingRanch 6.0L Powerstroke
04 VW Jetta GLS TDI
05 VW Passat GLS TDI

sinepman · April 2005

Batteries are warranted for 150,000 or ten years in CA,NY,MA,VT so I doubt you'll have problems with the battery. I'd be more concerned with the higher costs of maintaining the VW.

gagrice · April 2005

Batteries are warranted for 150,000 or ten years in CA,NY,MA,VT so I doubt you'll have problems with the battery.

If you only plan to keep a car until the warranty runs out then sell it, how do you think that will affect the resale? I can tell you that Prius that are no longer covered by warranty are not selling close to Blue Book prices. The VW TDI's bring much better True Market prices when they are past their warranty than any of the hybrids. Toyota pretty much says that the life cycle of the Prius is 10 years, 150k miles. To me that is a "throwaway car". I keep cars on average 15 to 20 years. Age will be a problem with the hybrids. Can you show more than 1 or 2 hybrids with over 150k miles that are still going strong? I can post dozens of Jetta TDI owners still very happy after 150k miles.

sinepman · April 2005

Only time will tell but based on costs of ownership for Toyota vehicles vs. VW, I'd stick with the one that has better service records. Toyota's always seem to excel where VW lags in reliability. The VW network of dealers is also a joke.

electrictroy · April 2005

"I doubt people will embrace diesels because of their stigma. They're quite a small market in the US"

.

Actually the diesel car market is about 3 times larger than the hybrid market.

troy

sinepman · April 2005

That is if you include trucks. Hybrid cars will surpass diesel cars in the near future. Diesel fuel is becoming more and more expensive every day. I doubt folks will want to buy one.

larsb · April 2005

quote E-Troy:"Actually the diesel car market is about 3 times larger than the hybrid market."

But the Hybrid market is growing FAST (960% since 2000, 81% in 2004) and the Diesel market is merely steady...

gagrice · April 2005

Diesel market is merely steady

That is saying a lot since they were not available in California and 4 other states since January 2004. If diesel was $3 per gallon and gas was $2 per gallon the difference between a gas car and the same size diesel car would be a wash. A 20 to 30 cent per gallon premium is not enough to offset the difference in performance and mileage. I have driven both the gas and diesel versions of the VW wagons. The diesel is far better in real world useful driving from 30-70 MPH. I don't race from stop light to stop light so a gas car is not any advantage for me. If the VW TDI's were available in CA over the last few years, I am not so sure the hybrid would have gotten off the ground. They started limiting diesel car sales in 2000.

coalburner · April 2005

after shopping between the hch and a tdi vw golf (same platform as the jetta), i bought the diesel. the honda dealer told me that adding a tow hitch in order to pull my small utility trailer would void my powertrain warranty. whereas the vw dealer gave me the phone number to the tire and hitch place down the block & asked if i would mention his name when i bought my hitch. having pulled a 1500lb (loaded) trailer for a couple of hundred miles with the golf, i can attest to the fact that it works just fine. the golf was actually able to replace my f-150 pickup!

gagrice · April 2005

the golf was actually able to replace my f-150 pickup!

Way to go and welcome to the forum. What kind of mileage did you get hauling the trailer? That is another advantage of the VW TDI over any of the high mileage hybrids. I understand you would void the warranty on a Prius also, if you hook up a trailer of any kind. Now you have utility and a 45 + MPG car.

larsb · April 2005

Glad you found a small car that can do double duty and tow a trailer. Not many people even think about that, and I'd be willing to bet the market for that sort of need is about 1 in 25,000 buyers. So it's interesting news, but will not sway too many buyers toward a Golf I'm sure.

As far as towing, I cannot locate any specs that indicate a USA Golf TDI even "has" a rated towing capacity.....???? Euro Golfs are given a 600KG Tow rating apparently....

Personally, I think towing with a small car is kinda dangerous, thus no rating given...

sinepman · April 2005

I know someone who hooked up a trailer to their Prius with no problem. Matter of fact, coastal tech sells a device that allows you to tow with a Prius. The VW is NOT rated for towing and the warranty would be voided too if you had a problem. So... you can tow at least 1500 lbs with a Prius, do it clean and green. Talk about having your cake and eating it too. Now if only they sold CLEAN diesel fuel. DARN!

z28_sedan · April 2005

"Now if only they sold CLEAN diesel fuel. DARN!"

They do. It's called B100 biodiesel. Clean, domestic, and renewable.
Can't say that about any fuel the Prius can use.

larsb · April 2005

can't say THAT about any fuel the Prius can use, either.....:)

z28_sedan · April 2005

Just for the record, I like both the Prius and the TDIs. Not trying to antagonize.
I do like how you can calculate your miles-per-petro-gallon with the TDIs though.

For example, my last tankful in my Jetta TDI was 48.8 mpg, but I used B20 so that's
61.0 mppg. With B50 it would have been almost 100 mppg and with B100 it would have
been infinite.

gagrice · April 2005

can't say THAT about any fuel the Prius can use, either

That is the issue. The hybrids currently will not run on anything but fossil fuel. If they built one for E85 or biodiesel that would be flexibility. Only the Diesels & bi-fuel vehicles offer that flexibility. Hybrids are not offering any solution to getting out from under foreign oil.

Sylvia · April 2005

Darn - this discussion is turning into hybrids v. diesels and we already closed that discussion down for people bickering and beating dead horses. I sure hope this discussion isn't headed down that path....only the participants staying on topic will help.

falconone · April 2005

Why would you test drive a car when you should bought one? Buyer remorse? I've driven the new Prius uphill on a long stretch of I80 in PA and maintained 80MPH with no problem. Prius has more content than the Passat and the Passat is a VW so you know you are going to have reliability issues statistically.

Jetta TDI, Civic Hybrid, or Prius?

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