Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see May lease deals!
Options
Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
If GM could build such a car, don't you think they would have? Honda and Toyota have patents on their designs, so outright copying them can't happen. GM doesn't have the engineering or technology to build a car as good, much less better than Accord/Camry.
Rocky
So you don't think this "perfect car" would sell? Believe me, if they could make this car, they would.
Therein lies GM's neverending problem. Big engines with lousy fuel economy. I guess they'll never learn.
Watch for Honda to go the other way. Diesels, hybrids, hydrogen etc. I know which company I'd bet on.
That's strange, the numbers I posted (18/25 for FWD) were from fueleconomy.gov., they have the AWD at 17/24. :confuse:
Anyway, the Malibu will be a nice, sorta new car, yet it seems like it is but one of four.
-Loren
They could have put a FWD drive Fusion and a AWD Fusion together and the people would have said they preferred the AWD version on the course just as the people preferred the AWD Fusion to FWD Accords and Camrys.
I wonder how it would have gone if all the vehicles had been FWD?
not only that but also 'handicapped' the other two cars with some nice speed limiting stability control systems not even offered on the Ford. There is absolutely no way that anything with that nasty DT is going to compare even close to favorably with those other 2 drivetrains. If you pick out 600 folks put them in front of an appropriately good salesman you will get the results you want - can you say OJ Simpson. 'The Fusion Challenge' should be regarded as the joke that it is and Ford should be ashamed of having to resort to such tactics.
Once again here is the link to the Automotive News & Views board where conversations about the manufacturers are going on all over the place.
A number of posts have been removed. If this discussion is going to remain viable, you folks have got to cooperate with me on this. I've been asking for your cooperation for a long time and I'm sorry to see I'm not really getting it.
Work with me here please. This is a really good discussion when it's on track. None of us wants to lose it.
toyota has a commerical for their new truck that demonstrates it accelerating to 60 quicker than 4 competitors. i like it a lot better than the one that say 'the average truck has x, we have x+1'. that may or may not mean anything in the real world.
you don't seem to understand, laying out the course in a particular manner can (and did) negate any horsepower advantage (and probably also prevented the participants from experiencing that wonderful meat grinder that the Ford engine is) and a stability control system will do nothing but get in the way on an open track course like this. A good poker cheat can arrange to get 4 aces every time.
-Loren
I would hardly consider this to be a bad thing. That motor is a lot of fun in the Mazda3 and the highline Foci (the lower Mazda3/Focus gets the 2l).
But in comparison to the mazdaspeed6, well that thing is a beast. I think I heard that this engine/turbo package was rated as one of the best engines in the world. Plus adding AWD helps keep all that power and torque to the road. The amazing thing is that the speed6 can be had starting in the 22k range since demand has been less than stellar. For those who would like to have a Grand Tourer type car, the Speed6 would be a great choice.
More features? like what?
Another place to see all those "unreliable Fords/GM products is MSN reliability data.. This will open your eyes! :surprise:
As far as your 30 year track record with the Accord.. Better go back and look at all those recalls for transmissions, electrical issues and more over those past 30 years The Accord is in no way perfect if you did your homework. I dumped my 2000 Accord for issues, that is why I'll never buy another one. Honda= overpriced, overrated and overdone for me!
Being reliable, isn't everything. Just one thing, in a long list.
Those who want to continue to participate here have got to stick to the subject.
They could have put a FWD drive Fusion and a AWD Fusion together and the people would have said they preferred the AWD version on the course just as the people preferred the AWD Fusion to FWD Accords and Camrys.
I wonder how it would have gone if all the vehicles had been FWD?
Please, please, please, read the whole article. They were V6 Accord/Camry. So, since the Accord/Camry come with stability control, and the Fusion does not? then it would have been unfair again? They were "comparably priced". Meaning you can get an AWD Fusion for the same price as the Camry/Accord... It also give numbers of people who chose the Fusion, along with interviews. I just don't understand why it is so hard to believe a Ford could actually win something.. :sick:
SO! The Fusion and Legacy have All-Wheel Drive! Who is using their all-wheel drive in this wintry weather much of the country is having?
Who has driven the new Kia Optima? Anybody here bought one? They look pretty promising as long as you are shopping 4-cylinders, but the V6 is WAY outgunned by other V6s in this group.
What are you looking for the next (2008) Accord to be offering? A more sporty flair, or a bias to luxury? Will the V6 have 4-cylinder economy or will it have class leading power, or both? Or neither?
(Take it from here, or come up with a new topic maybe?)
On a closed circuit with emphasis on handling, little things can make a big difference... wrong tire inflation pressures for example. People who take part in autocross events would know this but not the average person off the street. The Fusion could have been setup better than the Camry/Accord ie. "tuned" for this particular showcase.
Downside to the Fusion's system? AWD won't do as much for everyday handling until slip begins to occur. Until that happens, it will still handle like a typical front-drive car, not like, say, and Audi A6 Quattro, which is very balanced with its AWD system, I believe.
Fusion V6 is 7.2 0-60
Yeap, both are quick enough.
I have not personally driven the Fusion with a six yet. I did drive the Aura 3.5 and 3.6 and will tell ya, the 3.6 is fast, with lots of torque. The six speed works fine. I believe Intellichoice lists the Fusion SE V6 as worse than average value rating as in cost to own. The Aura is listed as average. The Honda Accord naturally is rated better than average. If I was buying a car, and was sure I would be happy with the car for at least seven years, and the car company is around to back the car, then yeap, no problem. Problems arise if you somehow get a car you wish to back out of, as in selling. Low resale could hurt. I have no problem with the Fusion in most respects. Not the fastest car, yet fast enough - price seems pretty fair when discounted - cornering ability and agility is good - looks pretty nice, and it appears that Mexico is putting out a car with good initial quality scores. The caveat of course is in the years to come, reliability, resale, and Fords health. If I am willing to assume some risk, and the price is right, I suppose I could venture in. A journey into the unknown. I am considering buying the Aura, which is made in USA, and is projected to have average resale value. Once again a leap of faith though compared to buying a Honda. Seems to be a little less with the GM vs. the Ford product, but once again things change. In 2005 I bought a PT Cruiser, which had an average rating for total cost to own. Now it seems to have fallen into a poor zone for total price, as resale is faltering. At least I bought the lowest end one, some I did not dive off into the high water.
It would be good for the US economy of course to see GM and Ford healthy once again. The Fusion though made across the border, throws some money Fords way, as would buying the Aura, which is made here in the States throws money into the GM pot. While I am impressed with the Accord SE V6 and i4 cars I tested, I was also pleased to find a good handling Fusion, with sharp looks, and the Aura having lots of the same attributes of an Accord. The total cost of ownership between the three cars mentioned appears to be all too predictable, and thus some sacrifice is required.
-Loren
There is reason to believe that VSC is better than AWD as a safety feature while cornering. And Toyota's VDIM is even better than VSC, though its only currently available on some Lexus models. Check out this post that compared AWD+VSC compared to RWD+VDIM...
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152498
The Fusion AWD will be useful in slippery conditions in a straight line (think traction control operation). It still will never have the ability to correct for cornering forces and compensate like VSC can. The VSC available in the Accord/Camry is a better safety feature IMO. And further evolutions of VSC (such as VDIM) could be better than lower forms of AWD (with VSC).
Having owned a Highlander AWD, Tundra D Cab 4WD, Scion xB, and now a Camry, all with VSC, I have personally experienced VSC in action. My '05 Tundra SR5 was ordered with it - now it is standard on all Tundras.
And the difference in the Fusion Challenge vs. all of the other media tests? This one was decided by regular drivers and vehicle owners, not by automotive journalists trying to sell magazines.
And paid for and edited by Ford who is trying to sell Fusions, not magazines. I think I'd rather trust a magazine editor than one working for Ford. Or, just make the decision myself.
actually the systems serve different purposes - a true AWD/4WD will actually improve driveability especially in slippery conditions and one reason why the Subaru is the 'national' car of New England. VSC/Trac can get in the way in those same road conditions and is construed as a safety feature in that it will prevent the driver from exceeding whatever the mfgr (or their lawyers) has decided is that vehicle's cornering limits. Depending on how the system is set, of course, it is more valuable as a safety feature on normal road conditions.
You mentioned VDIM which had an interesting effect on the cornering (slalom) ability in the Lexus GS. Slalom speed was reduced because the computer 'thought' that the course traffic cones were impending accidents and the car shutdown before a competitive result could be achieved. The Toyota/Lexus systems, of course, not user defeatable.
You keep saying this same sort of thing, but I think you are mistaken. ESC does help in slippery conditions.
It also can improve the vehicles capabilities in some situations. I believe that the only time it is detrimental is if you are stuck in deep snow or want to plow through deep snow and, therefore, want to spin the wheels, this is the only time our manual suggests you might want to turn it off temporarily.
ESC is able to apply braking to individual wheels, you can not do this yourself. This can improve the vehicles cornering or accident avoidance abilities.
Perhaps Toyota just has a crappy system. Or perhaps the sloppy Toyota handling leads them to having to have a more intrusive system.
We have a VW and their system certainly does help in slippery conditions. I don't think it has ever engaged itself in any other circumstances. I did have to make a very sudden lane change at high speed once, but I think the car did it without the ESC coming on...it certainly did not reduce my speed.