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time 1 owner L-M dealer............
Clearly posted in ad x at this price y more in stock.
They have always posted their ads like this.
Heritage L-M Syracuse NY
I wish other dealers in my area were like these guys!
How about us NBA players?
You guys love your cars and have blathered on quite repetitively about power, FE, resale, warranty, etc. so don't summarily dismiss someone's genuine concern to be comfortable whether it be in the front OR back seat. Tall people occasionally have tall friends and these groups of tall people sometimes travel further than to a local restaurant. On such trips, none of us are all that worried about resale value, whether we have 20 hp more or less than the similary sized car driving beside us, or if we're getting 28 vs. 30 mpg. What we DO care about is being able to enjoy ourselves once we reach our destination without having a stiff neck or sore back.
LARGE CARS.
To be considered for this category, it must be larger than a Toyota Camry, Buick LaCrosse, or Hyundai Sonata. Seating 6 is preferable. RWD is optimal, of course.
How about making it simpler.
It must seat three adults in the rear seat in comfort. If it doesn't pass this litmus test, it's not a large car.
Works for me. Also, I'm thinking the under $30k is a little too restrictive. Does anyone think we should adjust that, or even just drop it?
The various sub-topics should be exclusive to Azera.
We've established this before, but let's do it again: this is not an Azera discussion. It is a discussion about all of the listed vehicles. You can certainly stop following it if it doesn't interest you. Okay?
EPA volume, 2007 Maxima / 2007 Sonata:
Passenger Volume 104 ft3 (4D) 105 ft3 (4D)
Luggage... Volume. 16 ft3 (4D).. 16 ft3 (4D)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
Also, you say, "... making it simpler. It must seat three adults in the rear seat in comfort... If it doesn't...it's not a large car."
But that's a problem. What seems comfortable is totally subjective so it cannot be a litmus test. A litmus test is NEVER subjective.
How about just using the EPA size classification as the litmus test on whether a car is large?
I think so. The fact the majority of Azeras are purchased with the Limited trim, and many opt for the Ultimate package, which puts the price north of $30K (despite the price tag, there are tons of neat features packed into the car).
As they say, you build a good car, there will be buyers. As long as Hyundai continues doing what they have been doing the last decade or so, consumers are definitely ready for a $30K+ Hyundai. They already do, as a matter of fact, including the Azera, newly released Veracruz, and soon, its luxury RWD sedan.
I still believe that although Hyundai produces a good value car, they have not been able to attract the Generation X buyer in the sedan market.
Most of the buyers that I see are either the entry level, SUV, or like me, slightly gray or gray er.
I think that they must work harder to attract the younger affluent buyers.
likely true, that GenX buyer will spend the extra money for a name and a perception, might overextend themselves putting a BMW/Lexus/MB in their driveways while those greybeards you are talking about wouldn't give a darn about what others think and want their car to be necessarily comfortable and in large part, a reliable appliance. It will take a while for Hyundai to lose its 'Korean' car image and sell well to younger buyers - in the meanwhile, I'm guessing that many Azera buyers are folks that legitimately could have afforded to spend more....
That would be "convertibles!"...
To be fair, my Azera Limited, with Ultimate Option, floor mats, etc. stickered for just over $30,000 at $30,429. And the coming Limiteds with the new Ultimate package will still sticker for under $31K. How many will sell for under $30K -- ALL OF THEM.
Just wait till we start seeing the new Azera GLS with the 3.3 liter engine on the lots. Its base sticker is for under $25,000. That should be interesting for this forum.
My personal litmus test is simpler still, but I didn't originally include it since it would elicit a firestorm of flak from MR Hyundai.
"To be considered a "large sedan" it must offer seating for 6."
Can't be much simpler than that. Of course, that kills almost all of the market now, since every car has this bloated center console from hell in it. It kills the entire purpose of having a large car - to carry the whole family in it instead of a SUV.(seating for 6 is virtually the same as 7 for 95%+ of families)
Obviously to seat 6, the car must have either a front bench seat, a jump seat, or be a limo.
I may be old, but not that old.
Haven't heard this one - would suggest to you that it will be underpowered, given that the Azera is overweight to begin with - and from personal observation still not very good with a gallon of gas - the Sonata isn't. Would further suggest to you Azera owners, that nobody will gain if Hyundai makes a cheaper Azera, such things cheapen the name and ultimately hurt resale values, something that I understand NOBODY who bought an Azera worries about, they all plan to keep their cars 12 years when the national average for all cars is between 3 and 4.
you can pretty much bet on it - the Sonata V6 can generally be bought for about $5k cheaper than a similar Accord or Camry - almost exactly the difference in value after 3 years. The point being that the Sonata really didn't save much money at all and because all values of vehicles are directly related to what they sell for new. The Avalon holds it value better than any of the others in this group because it does cost more upfront, isn't discounted much, and does have that 'Toyota' reputation. The same 'false savings' may happen to the Azera especially if it becomes possible to buy that GLS for a smidgen over/under 20k or for some reason Hyundai starts discounting the 3.8 models heavily.
I agree with you, however, on the resale values, something Hyundai needs to improve (they have been showing good improvements, based on what I could tell, along with their dramatic increases in quality and reliability - they are defn. moving in the right direction).
One thing to ponder, if the Sonata V6 can be purchased with 5K less than Camcords, (I don't know, your estimate is as good as mine), I would put it into investment and see if the money would grew to 7K j/k but the other point about the lower price would mean lower interest expense incurred during the duration of the loan, unless paid off initially
"The Genesis concept is the first preview of the 'future architecture and design of a rear-wheel drive premium sports sedan scheduled to grace the Hyundai lineup in 2008,' the release says.
The Genesis concept is formed around a rear-wheel-drive architecture, a first for an American-market Hyundai. With a weight distribution of 53:47, a new 'Tau' V-8 engine with more than 300 horsepower and a six-speed automatic transmission, Hyundai says the Genesis will accelerate to 60 mph in less than 6.0 seconds and will reach a top speed of 130 mph."
And the photo looks terrific! Check it out at http://tinyurl.com/2cjf3h
Dandydon
Roland
a little optimistic perhaps? that would be a compounded rate of 12%, nothing really doeable outside the stock market where you can easily lose that much as well. In reality, car buyers don't have that much cash laying around and are generally stretched to make a reasonable down payment - that down payment the same size with either car, So that the honest price difference is the higher loan principal plus the interest paid on that principal difference - something that almost evens out as well just in the extra money paid for gas.
Dandydon
The fact this discussion doesn't even list the Grand Marquis and Crown Vic tells me this is a discussion for the buy new every three years crowd who worries about the latest technical gimmicks they put in a car.
I pay cash and keep my Grand Marquis 10-11 years. I might keep my 2002 longer than that since there is really nothing on a new car I see as an improvement I want, plus it is unclear how much longer they will build the Grand Marquis.
The car is five years old with 63,000 miles, and still has the original tires, brake pads - all the power equipment works, as does the air conditioning. Why mess with success?
I don't think a good V6 is considered as a "latest technical gimmick". How about this is the crowd whom want a modern full size vehicle instead of a 1970 dinosaur old tank.
The car is five years old with 63,000 miles, and still has the original tires,
If I was you I would seriously thinking about getting a new set of tires.
Why mess with success?
Because the CV/GM/TC are pretty much 1970 technology with early 90s styling. The V8 they have are putting out 224 HP, which can be easily accomplished by today's high performance I4 and any regular V6 to increase FE. Any V8s that puts out less than 300HP now-a-day deserve to be described as "pathetic".
I have no problem with the old school RWD full size sedan but good god, at least keep them up to date in order to be competitive. Oh well, this is Ford for you...
I guess then, that MINOR things like, power, fuel economy, braking/handling, space efficiencies, and safety must be gimmicks?
Well, I can tell you that this X'er (33 YO) doesn't care so much about the perception of others. However, I do care about how I perceive myself, as well as having a car that is practical BUT fire breathing and fun to drive.
I drive an '03 Maxima (the year before the redesign), and will probably replace it with an Altima, which is the "real" successor to my car in the Nissan lineup.
You ARE correct that most people in my age group will never buy a Hyundai. Too many of our peers got burned by crappy Hyundai Excels. I knew a guy with one in college, and it was truly horrifying to ride in. It was even worse than my high school buddy's Fiat convertible. The cars shared something in common, in that most of the floorboard had rotted away so you could watch the road go by under your feet.
Yes, I'm aware they've gotten better, but I'd rather buy a car from a company that has been making decent ones for longer than, oh, 4 years or so. Myself and my X'er-aged friends are more than happy to let the credit challenged and people who don't mind sitting around dealership service departments for hours take chances on Korean cars.
I personally know someone who had the transmission on a Kia Sportage with 600 miles on the clock literally decouple itself from the engine and FALL OUT while going down the road. So really, you guys who love your Korean cars can keep 'em. I'll continue buying my bulletproof Nissan sedans, thanks.
As far as Excels go...well, most of us that are over 30 should know plenty. However, I did have a buddy that had one, that I ended up buying off of him...it had over 250K miles on it when it was totaled in a accident.
Nissan...bulletproof??? :confuse: I've NEVER heard those two in the same sentence before. A close friend of mine bought the 2002 Altima 3.5 V-6 and within the 1st year, the tranny had to be replaced. Take a cruise around your local used car dealers and see how many Nissan sedans you'll find on those lots...PLENTY!!!
Funny, you mention a Kia with a tranny that drops out, do you know how many brand spankin new Caddy's I see on the side of the road with paper tags on them no less? Oh...I won't even begin to talk about the other newer American sedans (within the last 3 years) that end up broken down on the side of the road as well.
Wait a minute...American sedans hardly rank in the top 10 when it comes to dependability...that's right!!! What's really sad is that those that are over 35 might be too young to remember when Toyota, Honda and Datsun weren't exactly the most reliable on the market either. They just happened to be all that was available. All of them went through their woes and have managed to end up on the other side standing tall. Hyundai/Kia is gonna have to go through the same process...they are just on a learning curve at this point by having other's to model after.
The problem is that you don't really know what the long-term reliability is on these cars, because IMO they haven't been making "decent" cars long enough. I'm not stupid, my gut tells me that the '06 and up Sonatas and Azeras are good cars. However, you never really know until years down the road whether a car is any good or not. Considering how expensive cars are and how much I depend on mine, I just am not willing to take a chance on the Koreans yet. They're just too new at the "big league car game".
In my case, I just buy what I've had good luck with, and nobody I personally know has ever bought a dud Nissan. They've all hit the 100,000 mile and up club with zero serious issues.
The transmissions Nissan uses in their cars are very good - as long as they're taken care of and not abused, that is. Their transmission vendors (Aisin and Jatco) supply quite a few car companies, actually, not just Nissan. In fact I think your Azera's transmission is made by Aisin, though I wouldn't swear to it.
The fact that you see "plenty" of Nissans on your local used car lots is meaningless. It is probably because they are such popular cars, the used car dealers buy all they can at auto auctions. I don't seen "plenty" of Hyundais because as recently as 2002 they were disposable cars.
Look at resale values of Azeras vs. Maximas or Sonatas vs. Altimas, and that will pretty much tell you all you need to know about the desirability of these cars to the general public. Even if you don't care about resale, you still have to wonder why the resale is so low compared to the cars a company like Nissan makes. My guess is it's the same reason I won't buy a Korean car, their reliability is just too much of an unknown at this point.
And for the record, I have no hidden agenda against Korean makes. On the contrary, I hope they bury the competition in sales, it will only improve the overall quality and "gotta have" features of the cars and trucks that are available for purchase. Do you think that American brands would have made such huge strides in reliability over the last decade if it hasn't been for the Japanese competition? Yeah, right! :P
You won a prize at the local shopping mall.
You can select any of the following manufacturers car free.
BMW, MB, Hyundai, Lexus.
Which one do you chose?