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In action, this is very different than the traditional brake pedal that directly engages a hydraulic master cylinder. Ford engineers have worked rather hard to make the system act, feel, and perform like a traditional braking system - but observant folks will notice the differences (can you hear the hydraulic pump pressurize the system every time you unlock the doors with the key fob?). I am not surprised that performance would suffer. Once a driver understands the differences they may be able to adjust their braking to improve overall stopping performance. [While coasting in "N" the regenerative system is off so if you hit the brake pedal you will engage only the foundation (hydraulic) brakes. Likewise, regenerative braking in the m/g is heavier in "L" than in "D", etc., etc.] Be safe.
I don't think what you are sensing is due to some slight difference in friction at the disc pads. In your particular case I would recommend you be more aggressive with pushing the brake pedal (and driving in "L") - to get a better sense of stopping ability.
that I can at least identify them and begin to understand the reason they
are different from the conventional systems"[marg].
That is really the best attitude to have. Again, the Ford engineers have worked hard to make the vehicle act like a "non-hybrid" in many ways.
"I hope the engineering efforts and complexity added to these systems turn
out to be worth it in the long run."[marg].
An excellent question and one we are all wondering about.
Has your situation been resolved???
I am a big hybrid proponent but will take the Escape off the list because my families safety is more important that Gas Mileage and there are several other Hybrid alternatives on the market with more coming.
Note to Ford: No FEH for this guy
Bubkis
No regrets about my FEH.
Stephen
if you use that logic.....you may never purchase any vehicle...because none of them are perfect and they all may have some technical/design weakness the can sound widespread and dangerous when discussed in detail
conversely, you may be safer in an FEH if you purchased it and knew to have the brake system checked (?) when you purchased it
I have read many postings from folks that live in the mountains of Colorado and have owned their FEHs safely for over 3 years now.
You bring up a good point. However, Brakes or lack of brakes is a pretty big deal. I am confident its not on all FEH but I don't want to be in that 1%to X% that have the issue.
If it were a faulty window or even a stalling engine those are significantly less worry some than bad brakes.
Looking around other small suv forums (i am researching for purchase) CRV, Rav4 etc, they have their own issue forums. But what seem to be Chronic Brake problems putting folks at risk does not seem to come up in the other forums so much.
Brake are like air. You can't live (long) without it, especially going over Colorado mtn passes, not to mention driving hwy speeds in everyday traffic w kids in the back. Not to be overly dramatic, but bad brakes is troubling.
I will do some more research and take your good advice. I really like the form and function of the FEH but seeing (and not seeing on CRV/Rav4) these posts on failing brakes (a staple feature for an automobile) does give me pause. Not to mention if bleeding the brakes is a possible solution, does one have to always go to Ford for this service vs a non-ford service station.
I will indeed heed your advice to expand my data points though.
If I buy a FEH it will be new so I know the history and warranty.
Thx Bubkis.
I love driving these cabs and the only real issue I have is that when you break the car clunks. I don't know how else to explain it. You apply the breaks and instead of a steady slow down you get ka-chunk, ka-chunk, ka-chunk. They stop ok but they both make this sound and it jerks the car as it make this sound.
Yesterday I took my Escape cab out and as I got onto the freeway the car started to shake really bad. Sort of like the ka-chunk only continuous. This only lasted a few seconds so I continued on my way. I traveled maybe 2 miles, had exited the fwy, turned a corner and again the car started to shake. This time it would not stop. It was very scary, I thought there was something wrong with the axle but it felt just like it did when you break, only continuous. I headed back to the cab lot. Took the fwy since it seemed to run better there. Not so good this time, but I drove slow, 30mph, exited and was at a red light when I saw smoke coming from behind me. Then I heard people from the gas station I was next to yelling to me that I was on fire. I pulled over and got out.
Sure enough, both back breaks were literally in flames. I do not know what happened but it was as if the brakes were engaged or something. Although I only say that because the shaking was so similar to what happens when the brakes are applied.
So, if you keep your Escape Hybrid for a while be prepared for it to start the ka-chunk when you break and look to sell it immediately thereafter!!
Sounds like you had a malfunction of the rear foundation brakes or more likely a major misalignment of the parking brake components inside the regular rear brake rotors.
Who services the brakes on your hybrids? :confuse:
The ka-chunk was probably a signal that something was starting the fail ...the shaking was the ultimate failure...the flames were the result of continuing to drive on the failed brake components.
Did you notice if any of the lights on the dash came on?
So, if they had worked on the breaks and put them together wrong would this have caused this kind of failure? I would have stopped driving had I seen some kind of info on the dash lights or a message that there was some new problem.
However, what I thought was something worth mentioning was the fact that ALL of the FEH's in our fleet that I've driven (three of them) do the same ka-chunk thing when you apply the breaks. It is not in any way a minor thing that can be ignored. I am constantly having to explain to my passengers what it is because they ask. Of course I really don't know but I just tell em that it's got over 200,000 miles and has something to do with the system charging the battery when the breaks are applied.
Also, given that our FEH's are taxi's driven 20 hrs / day 365 days per year at about 100,000 miles / year it is very unlikely anyone driving a FEH for personal use will ever have this kind of usage. In addition, these FEH are being driven at those rates in San Francisco with all of the hills that most people don't deal with.
Remember, the ka-chunk might have been happening in all 3 FEHs but they were being serviced by the same crew of mechanics. Easy to make the same maintenance mistake 3 times if you are not familiar with the vehicle design.
Please let us know what they eventually find (if you can) was the cause of the brake failure(s).
Has the fire in the wheels of that FEH caused the mechanics to take the other 2 FEHs out of service until the condition is corrected??? :surprise:
seriously overheated (say 1000F) some pads release flammable vapors. Back when I was a wanna-be sports car racer, I took a street car out on a race track and managed to impress everyone.. "Dude! You were haulin' A$# out there! And your brakes were, like, on fire!!" I thought that was a figure of speech until I pulled the wheels and checked the brake pads. I poked them with a screwdriver and they crumbled like burnt toast and the ashes blew away in the wind. Fortunately I had a spare set of high-temp racing pads.
It had warning lights on, the check engine light and wrench light may have been on for reasons very relevant to the brake system. Then, there is a private fleet repair shop servicing this vehicle, where did they get any Hybrid Escape training at? I've taken mine with Ford Motor company, where did they get their's?
The braking ability of that vehicle is a team effort between the PCM and the ABS module. Since some of the braking effort is commanded by the PCM, the wrench light and check engine lights may have been very relevant to the brakes and they were apparently ignored.
The basic hydraulic brake system on that vehicle is impacted by the fact that the engine does not run all the time, as well is the P/S system, the A/C, heat and charging system (it doesn't even have an alternator).
That vehicle needs to be serviced by personnel who have completed Escape Hybrid training. No technician should be servicing any hybrid of any make until they have completed make and model specific training. The entire vehicle is impacted by the fact that the engine doesn't run at all times, and therefore the entire vehicle is different from a conventional vehicle that we are used to.
When you apply the brake pedal, you are not normally supplying the hydraulic pressure that engages the brakes at the wheels. You are making a hydraulic "request" for brakes. The PCM applies regen. braking at the front wheels and the ABS module applies the rear brakes. Under heavier braking demands, the front friction will also be engaged by the ABS module.
If the ABS module fails to power up, or the pump fails to run... then what some might loosely call a master cylinder then becomes a back up source of hydraulic pressure. What would normally, on most vehicles, be the master cylinder bore is called a "pedal feel emulator" on your hybrid because normally it just gives the feel of conventional brakes. But, in the event of an ABS failure, there is a check valve inside the ABS HCU (hydraulic control unit) that switches under mechanical pressure and allows the pedal feel emulator to now supply the hydraulic pressure to apply the friction at the wheels. This is a fail safe mode. It is for emergency stopping and not meant for anything more. The brake pedal efforts will be very high. You'll still have brakes, but you'll have to stand on the pedal hard to get them. It'll stop, but you might ruin a perfectly good pair of shorts.
However, the dash lights are still lit. Well, actually, the wrench and emissions light were on at the beginning of the night along with a message to service emissions system. The wrench light went out after a few hours.
Anyone have any idea what may happen if they don't service the emissions system when it is supposed to be? Aside from the obvious potential for higher emission then should be. If they take their sweet time in servicing the emissions system what kind of potential risk am I facing (i.e., brakes on fire due to lack of attention to problem).
As far as what kind of training our mechanics have had related to FEH service.... Good question but I'm gonna bet little to none this isn't something I have any way to find out. Although the next time I have to go to the shop I'll try and ask one of them but these are not the friendliest or most talkative people you will meet.
I have noticed that we suddenly have a few more of these FEH taxi's with our colors but I was told they are 'color scheme' meaning they are privately owned and the owner takes care of the maintenance and service at the garage or shop of their choice.
Also, I didn't post this info originally because I thought there was a design flaw in the vehicle. I did think that the ka-chunck in the brakes was something that developed once the vehicle had high milleage. I just wanted to share what happens if you don't pay attention to issues and/or if they are not serviced properly or as required.
I checked the actual millage of my FEH taxi last night and it has 243,000 miles. The excellent news about that is the FEH is almost like a new car other then the inept mechanic related issue. The suspension is excellent, steering works wonderfully, nothing I can think to complain about now that the brakes are fixed. Compare that to the Grand Marquis or Crown Victoria's in our fleet and when they have 240,000 miles the suspension stinks and the steering is loose and difficult, the transmissions slip, as well as misc other issues - in comparison the FEH is hands down a much better vehicle.
Mark
Any chance it might be the parking brake being froze up? I've had many cars where the rear parking brake cable will freeze up and the parking brakes will be on all the time. That could head up the rotors pretty bad and might cause other failures.
You really seriously need to take this vehicle to a qualified shop to check it out. If your company's garage can't... which I'm getting the feeling they can't otherwise they'd have done it by now... you need to take it somewhere. It doesn't HAVE to be the dealer, but it needs to be someone who has had Hybrid Escape training and that by default might mean the dealer.
There is a design flaw. Check out NHTSA/ODI. All FEH model years have had complete brake failures - 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008.
You need to maximize your regenerative braking. Start braking sooner so that you don't have to press the brake as hard.
When ever you are costing, you should lightly press the brake pedal, this will start the regenerative braking process.
Mark
Last week - I had the whole system light up all the electronics and gizmos - then on the disply - SAFE TO STOP. The car has over 55k on it. FORD wanted 90 per hour and 90 to put on the computer to determine problem. I was not happy and then they said there was a recall on the BAT Harness. which may have caused all the electronic failures. And then the ABS light comes on - they advised that this was not part of the problem and computer indicates that it is some where in the rear axle and could not determine if it is the rear or R or L.
I find this strange and now my regen is not working and they 400-900 to repair the ABS.
Can anyone give me options is this a part you chang out yourself and has there been a trend with the brake issues with the FEH 06 models made in 2005
Thanks
NOT HAPPY WITH THIS VEH - have not had good MPH
Hard to advise you on what to do with the limited diagnosis you have been given, to be sure, the components in the axle related to the brakes are not hybrid unique...the Smart Junction Box that controls braking functions has been known to fail. The ABS (computer) does have a rather complex software that controls braking functions and that needs to be updated or maybe "re-flashed" to insure it is the correct configuration for your VIN#. Also, I've seen some reports of master brake cylinder change-outs that were required to solve some FEH brake problems.
Three components: HVBattery, eCVT(transmission), and DC to DC converter are warranteed for 8 years or 100,000 miles minimum. Regeneration occurs entirely within the eCVT....as controlled by the ABS computers.
Good Luck
In no Cal Emissions states, the complete hybrid system has a 8 year or 100,000 mile warranty, the Ca Emission cars have an additional 10 year or 150,000 mile warranty on the HV battery.
You need to go to a different dealer.
Mark.
I have repeatedly taken the truck in for squeaking noise in the front end (I even said I thought it was in the axle, but of course the service tech looked at me with the deer in the headlight look....and not even looking me in the eye...another story). I have had the truck in the shop repeatedly for a grinding noise come from the back breaks and a shuddering when I break.
I have looked on the alldatadiy web site and noticed several TSBs that fit the problems I have. If I were to take these bulletins in, would the dealership be more helpful?
What the devil does the module in the axle do?
I have even lemon lawed this vehicle for transmission issues and other electrical problems.
Any ideas?
Good Luck.
Braking action is divided between the regen braking system and the conventional hydraulic system. The ABS unit determines the necessary amount of braking supplied by each system by evaluating inputs such as the vehicle speed and the operator's braking request, determined by accelerator pedal and brake pedal position.
In essence when you let go the acc pedal or press on the brake pedal, the ABS sends a signal to the powertrain control module (PCM) to provide braking action by regen braking, and it does so up to a specific limit. Additional braking required which the regen braking cannot supply is then obtained by the ABS through the conventional hydraulic system.
Where I am going with this? Your ABS might not be (or not properly) getting the input necessary to request regen braking, which prevents calculations and, as a safety measure, gives you back full control of hydraulic brakes.
You might want to get it to a Ford dealer so they could perhaps obtain a fault code for diagnostic. You might need re programming.
Hope this helps, please write back the outcome.
Good luck
I would like your opinions.
thanks!
It is not too uncommon for a parking brake that has been engaged overnight to stick in place somewhat even after it has been released....and then unstick, sometimes with a thud or other noises, as the car begins to roll.
My vehicle has only 11,000 miles logged on it. It just had the eCVT transmission replaced. I was hearing a whistling noise - like a siren - low pitch while the vehicle was travelling. 2 Detroit Hybrid familiar engineers came out to my local dealership to hear for themselves. They diagnosed that I needed a new transmission. Brand new transmission. There's no rebuilt here.....
I have now gotten much better gas mileage. But I think I still hear the noise. I'm not sure though. I'm trying to ascertain whether the Trip Sensor in Master Cylinder might be the culprit. Thank you for responding.
You can read previous posts in this forum from myself.
Anyway, the dealership told me that I need some part that they requested from Ford. Ford put a hold on the part and are sending an inspector out. Has anyone else had this happen? I really don't want to drive the car again with everything that I have read out there. I have a 15 month old daughter and I would hate to have her in the car with me the next time the brakes go out. Any suggestions? I can't afford to buy a new car right now!
The ABS light and the check brake light would come on. After shutdown and re start it would be off, but then in a few moments come back on. A visit to the dealer, resulted in rebooting the computer. Next day same problem, dealer replaced some module(?), O.K. for a few days, then the lights again. Up to this point I still have had brakes, just with a different feeling when this happens. So again, back to the dealer. At this point, the "tech" called Detroit to consult with the engineers, they recommended replacing the master brake cylinder.
In all of my 65 years of driving, only one of many, many vehicle had a master cylinder problem. They told me I could drive the vehicle over the weekend, until the master cylinder came in. I did. The m.c. was replaced, everything was fine, and then about two weeks later the same problem again, and again they replaced the m.c. called me and said, sorry that one had the same problem, an they replaced it again. Success, I have had it for a day, and it still works. Does Ford have a problem? I know, I have. So far, this has been covered by the 36/36 warranty, but my dealer tells me that when that's up, too bad.
I like my dealer, he has provided me a vehicle to drive, if they need to keep mine longer than a day.
I like my FEH, it's my 3rd Escape, and the nicest.
Will I buy another FORD ?
If this problem is not resolved, and if it starts costing me money. NO !
The least Ford should do is to extend the warranty on that issue until the problem is solved.
Ken in Sun City West, Az.