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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?
GM has turned around Cadillac in recent years, but will Cadillac be the standard of the world ever again... let me know what you guys think?
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The 2008 CTS, very well could be the standard of the world in entry/lux segment.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
There was only one Dewar Trophy for this category, and that Trophy is still Cadillac's. They are therefore still the "Standard of the World" and this topic should be terminated.
Just my $0.02 on the Standard of the World chatter
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Cutting edge? What?
I can't go on 'hopefully' as being worth much in regards to havbing the superior product. Always talking about the next model doesn't bode well.
Standard of the world also should mean something is marketable to every major location. I don't see that as the case right now. You mention market share...that is exactly right. The common standards right now can be sold most anywhere.
However, the question is:
WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS DISCUSSION!!!
The Northstar compared to MB motors of those days was cutting edge because it was derived from the famous german engineered LT-5 found in the ZR-1 Corvette. :P
BMW, all they knew how to make was a 240 hp. inline-6 for its M3. A great engine in a compact sports sedan. Everthing else from BMW, was junk even though I was a fan of the 7 series styling and interior design back in those days.
Cadillac was the standard of the world for at least a few years anyways back in the early-mid 90's and if my meory serves me correct it even won the anti-gm biased Motor Trend calipers. :surprise:
Rocky
If everything else from BMW was junk, I wouldn't want to hear what everything else GM would be considered...
The point is to discuss what makes a standard of the world today, and what Caddy can do to get there.
Now, there can be different standards:
Per styling, Cadillac definately is it. No car is prettier than a Cadillac in my eyes.
Per quality and reliability, I'd say it is Lexus.
Per trucks, I'd say it's the new Chevrolet Silverado.
Per status, it's a toss-up between Mercedes and BMW.
Per overall value, I'd say it's Buick.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Syling depends on what one likes, however, most luxury cars are not Azteks.
J. D. Power has Lexus at the top of the heap. They are mostly concerned with quality and dependability.
If the point of this discussion is:
"what is the worlds best luxury car?"
Then I think that the Rolls Royce, Bentley and Maybach are very good. Cadillac does not have anything in this catagory. Cadillac does not have any sedans that compare with an S-class Mercedes either, except perhaps for size. For the "best" luxury car, the standard of the world would have to be very refined, something GM does not quite grasp.
It comes down to an old GM problem - you have to keep on moving. These new models come out that are competitive, but don't seem to receive upgrades like the competition. Too often they live on for many more model years than they should.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Given GM's record for the past 30+ years, I find it impossible to believe that its corporate culture is capable of conceiving of, much less producing, anything that is the "standard of the world."
Neither the UAW - or the beancounters - would ever stand for it.
GM aspires to mediocrity, nothing more. It is a rental car producer, in slow decline due to union expense and featherbedding coupled with short-sighted management.
Could your negative attitude have something to do with a bad experience with Saabs?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My terrible experience with a post-GM SAAB 2003 9-3 - an experience confirmed by Consumer Reports and others - did not create my poor opinion of GM, merely confirmed it.
I worked for a multi-franchise car dealer from 1971-1996. Among their franchises (since the lates 1980's) was Cadillac / Oldsmobile and Chevrolet.
What I saw was indifferent design, sloppy execution, sloppy assembly, cheesy interiors and "luck of the draw" reliability. In other words, vehicles clearly subject to beancounter final word and assembled by UAW hacks who couldn't care less, because they didn't think they had to (cheerfully oblivious as their numbers kept shrinking, their jobs being displaced by nonunion plants in the South).
My experience with the 9-5 prompted me to take a chance, with some trepidation, on the 9-3 / Malibu / G-6.
That experience taught me that not much has changed with GM since 1996, notwithstanding their current spin that they've "caught up" in quality.
Any quick perusal of the black dots in Consumer Reports tells the real story ...
The 2000/2001 Saab 9-5s do. The newer ones have plastic that is shaped the same.
Also check out the sills between the doors(the uprights/pillars) - it used to be anodized aluminum or painted steel. Now it's plastic. GM *and* Ford seem to know how to bean-counter all of the quality and ergonomics out of anything they touch. Like a big evil sponge.
As long as there's more plastic than wood and cloth(leather seats don't count here as any maker can add them) in the interior, Cadillac doesn't get my vote. Not anymore.
Plain and simple - plastic is cheap and NOT luxury.
Interesting rant, Rocky, for someone who has been defending Lincoln against Cadillac on the Lincoln board.
But anyway, I have owned both. had a 99 navigator, an 02 escalade, and then an 03 navigator. Comparing the 02 Escalade to the 03 Navigator yielded an opinion that both trucks have different strengths. My Escalade had better climate control, more responsive and accurate, horrible navigation, downright useless. A smaller second seat area, and that damn folding 3rd seat that just flipped up, taking 25% of your luggage room. I traded it for the 03 Navigator because of the beautiful unique interior, the cooled seats, the independent rear suspension which made it ride so much better, wasn't impressed with the power running boards, so didn't get them, but the power folding 3rd row seats clinched the deal. The Escalade only had more power when towing, otherwise the 6.0L engine is kind of a dog off the line, and the Navigator felt stronger, drove better, and was much more technologically advanced, and Rocky, it had the gadgets that you love. Like the power liftgate.
GM usually catches up with Ford and the Imports eventually, and they finally made some good strides this year, which I think puts their truck on par with the Navigator. They do have the back up camera, good Navigation finally, and a more peppy engine and the interior is nice, even though it's still just like a Tahoe, whereas the Navigator is unique. But they just can't get on board with the 3rd row seats, even though Ford figured it out on their Explorer 4 years ago.
Between the two now, I would call it an even fight.
Ain't gonna happen again for Cadillac. They've given up way too much ground to Lexus, BMW and Mercedes. Mercedes blew Cadillac out of the water in the 80's and BMW and Lexus have do so in the 90's till now. Cadillac doesn't have a flagship sedan to compete with the S-Class or Lexus LS. Most import luxury car buyers don't even consider Cadillac as one of their choices anymore. Cadillac has some nice cars for sure, particularly the V models, but you can't be a standard of the world when you're only really hot in a few markets and/or not even #1 in your home market.
M
GM is notorious for chasing a moving target while at the same time not concentrating on the real details.
M
I also will comment on some posters cheap shots at the UAW workers. Again, as a reminder when did the UAW assume responsibility for designing or engineering of GM vehicals ??????? I'm still waiting for my answer.
So my point is this..... Lincoln and Cadillac, are turning their brands around. The Lincoln MKZ, no doubt will be a sales success and with a bit more more that is rumored to come in a couple of years will no doubt help it out. I also think Lincoln, needs to give customers a manual transmission option for the MKZ. The Lincoln MKS concept is a beauty. If it looks like the concept and if the rumors are true that Lincoln, is exploring even more gadgets to add the the already gadget filled MKS, we could have a benchmark if Lincoln adds that 3.7 Twin Turbo with over 350+ hp. It might not be as great as lets say a Lexus LS, or a Audi A8, in some peoples eyes but it will win plenty of consumers because it will offer the customer a premium value. The value concept started by Acura, has made that brand a winner. Acura, made a blunder by not giving the RL, competitive performance and did leave the 6-speed automatic and ventilated seats out of the equation.
Cadillac, has a chance to not only topple what the MKZ, does well with the CTS, but they have a chance to pass by BMW's 335i. If I was GM, I'd take the Direct Injection 3.6 High Feature V-6 and add two turbo's to it. They already have made this engine and tested it in the Velite. The BMW 335i run 0-60 in 4.8 seconds. I'd make sure the CTS, does it in 4.7-4.8 range and pulls a .90 minimum on the skid pad. If GM, has to charge BMW 335i prices on a fully optioned CTS, to be the new benchmark then that is what they need to shoot for. The 2008' from what we've seen appears to have a much better interior. It now just needs the gadgets like ventilated seats, Mega-Watt DVD-Audio, voice recognition system w/ Navi, and perhaps a pre-collision, adaptive cruise, etc etc etc.
The next STS, flat out needs a better quality interior and about 80 more horsepower. It also could use some more gadgets if they want to charge $60+K large ones.
The DTS, needs RWD and needs to be in long wheel-base trim only. It needs to be a big-body and give the customer bigger than Mercedes S-class interior volume with reclining rear seats with heat, massage, ventilation. It also needs some more gadgetry and should chase Mercedes, Lexus big sedans.
The SRX, is finally getting some much needed upgrades. It needs a shot of steroids, some more gadgetry, and it will blow the MKX, away in sales.
The XLR, needs to be overhauled and GM, needs to take the Mercedes SL, and make the XLR, exceed every area of advantage the SL, has over it or otherwise they might as well scrap this idea. How bout adding a 6-speed manual option or F-1 inspired Paddle shifters with 500-600 horsepower ? The XLR, also needs to tone down those sharp edges since its more likely a conservative buyer will be cross shopping it with the SL.
Rocky
P.S. NV, you know you bought the Navigator, because of the power running boards. Well thats the conclusion I got when reading about the 07' Navigator, and the former owners trading down from a Slade to a Gator. :P Oops, as lemko, said it might of been this years case was the consumers wanted those retro instrument gauges. :confuse:
Isn't the bible that some of you consumers think it is. Whatever, we won't kick this dead horse again.
Rocky
Rocky
Rolls Royce with their wimpy gas hawging V-12. Why buy a Rolls, when a Bently is the same thing only a bit better ?
The Cadillac Sixteen would be the greatest 1,000 hp/1,000lbs tq. car ever made and could be driven as a daily driver unlike the Bugatti, which needs maintence every other day at Ten$ of thousand$ a pop. :P
I'm with lemko, it would out class everything and would be "The Standard Of The Universe". :shades:
Rocky