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I was successful in resolving the problem of inconsistent starting in a 2004 Saturn Ion which has the passlock II theft deterent system. I found the description of the
Passlock System as:
The theft deterrent system has been incorporated into the body control module (BCM). The theft deterrent is provided in order to prevent the vehicle operation if the correct key is not used in order to start the vehicle. The ignition key turns the lock cylinder. The cylinder rotation produces an analog voltage code in the Passlock™ sensor. This voltage code is received by the BCM. The BCM compares the voltage code to the previously learned voltage code. If the codes match, a class 2 message is sent from the BCM to the powertrain control module (PCM)/vehicle control module (VCM). The message enables the fuel injectors.The design of the Passlock™ system is to prevent vehicle theft by disabling the engine unless the ignition lock cylinder rotates properly by engaging the correct ignition key.
Hope this helps.
My car would not start and it was just 3 1/2 years old, with under 30,000 miles but ,out of warranty. I replaced the battery to the tune of $232.00, because it was a vented one, in the trunk. I had called Saturn and they said it was out of warranty and they would not cover any of the expense, so I decided to have a new battery installed elsewhere. Come to find out it was not the battery at all but a problem with the ignition switch (which Saturn knew about) and had that installed to the tune of $118.00 even though the bulletin came out in Mar. of 2006 when my car would have been covered by the warranty. I bought my car new from Saturn of Daytona Bch Fl. but I will never buy another Saturn again because of the treatment I recieved from that dealership.
As for the BCM perhaps this will help:
Vehicle Theft Deterrent (VTD) Description and Operation Passlock™ System
The theft deterrent system has been incorporated into the body control module (BCM). The theft deterrent is provided in order to prevent the vehicle operation if the correct key is not used in order to start the vehicle. The ignition key turns the lock cylinder. The cylinder rotation produces an analog voltage code in the Passlock™ sensor. This voltage code is received by the BCM. The BCM compares the voltage code to the previously learned voltage code. If the codes match, a class 2 message is sent from the BCM to the powertrain control module (PCM)/vehicle control module (VCM). The message enables the fuel injectors.The design of the Passlock™ system is to prevent vehicle theft by disabling the engine unless the ignition lock cylinder rotates properly by engaging the correct ignition key. The system is similar in concept to the PASS-Key® system. However, the Passlock™ system eliminates the need for a key mounted resistor pellet. The components of the Passlock™ system are as follows:
The ignition lock cylinder
The ignition switch
The Passlock™ sensor
The BCM
The security telltale
The VCM/PCM
Ignition Lock Cylinder and Housing
Well thanks i got some useful info from all of you. Hopefully i don;t have to come back for anything else seein i won't buy another Saturn now that there are GM. Saturn has lost there individualism it's not "Saturn" anymore is "G-saturn-M" all the cars look the same. sorry for the rant.
Thanks,
Tim
Thanks All
Not all battery shops carry vented batteries. I was surprised Sears does not carry them.
It turned out to be the ignition switch. I also needed a battery.
The battery was cheaper at the dealer. I called several auto parts stores and was getting prices like $120, $145 for this vented battery. AutoZone doesn't even carry this type of vented battery and Napa wanted me to bring it in to match it up. Even the Saturn dealer I called to in the next city wanted $120. My dealer did it for $99 for the battery and $15 for the installation. Cheaper then I could do it.
Another good thing was the tow. We have Saturn tow coverage on the car with the extended warranty and they paid for a tow to the nearest Saturn dealership. That is great when you live in a rural area like we do. I called a tow service directly and they wanted $130 cash and my insurance only will reimburse me up to $100. My car was towed at no change to me. They were even there in under 3 hours. That's not bad for a day when it's been below zero for a couple of days here and all the towing services have been busy. Plus my dealer fixed the car the same day.
I was only charged for the battery work since the car has an extended warranty til 100k and I'm at 98k. Just in time!
Last week the temperature happened to be 10-15 degrees. Guess what? My car wouldn't start. Exact same symptoms as before. Luckily after trying to start it for a bit, and then going in the house and waiting 10 minutes before trying again, the car started and I was able to get to my job interview on time. (Thank God.) The weather warmed up immediately and for a week no problems, but yesterday, again, it's in the teens...
So I just called my service dept, and the warranty work warranty has expired (they allow 1 year for malfunctioning warranty work to be repaired). So my warranty issue isn't retroactive--I'll have to pay for any repairs done. (This doesn't seem fair...). Anyway, I called customer service (800-553-6000) and they said that some repair "bulletins" have just been released "for 03-05 Ions with the no-start condition." Service is supposed to follow 2 possible recommended fixes Document ID#: 1959536 and Doc ID# 1871764. The customer service rep said that you should be able to obtain copies of these documents at the dealership. I don't have them yet myself, but the rep explained:
One of the documents says that deposits left by "cheap" gas could be clogging the fuel system--use GM System Treatment Plus to clean the gas tank/lines, and use high-quality, detergent gasoline from places like Shell (not the cheap stuff from BP or Citgo). Since I have to buy the cheap stuff ($3.10/gal is cheap?), it is a strong possiblity that my current issues are related to having crusties in my fuel system. So I'm going to try a little clean-up before I invest in replacing the fuel pump, fuel line, or whatever. (I might just invest in a microwaveable hot pad and hold it on the ignition switch on those cold, cold days. LOL.)
I do believe that replacing your non-starting ignition switch with one that has the "northern climate" lube is the cheapest, quickest solution. Don't spend a fortune replacing the battery, BCM, etc. The service department should not con you into that--by now, they KNOW how what the issue is.
I'll update y'all about how effective using better gas and the cleaner is.
the12volt.com/installbay/forum posts.asp~TID~24582
The GM bulletin basically describes putting a switch inline in the severed white wire; I just put wire nuts on them.
The wiring diagram shows three wires; I found five. I only cut the white wire and only when the car was RUNNING. The BCM module thinks that the voltage has been interrupted while being driven and goes into a "failsafe" mode, to allow the car to continue to run, as no one would attempt to steal a car thru this circuit, if it were already running.
Hope this is of some help.
By the way this is from KY.
Good Luck!
Thank you.
GM service bulletins describe "reteaching" the BCM thru a thirty minute process with a new switch/key, and I inferred that you could also reteach it with an old key. I did so and the car started repeatedly, until my daughter tried to start it, with a different key on a keyring with many other keys and whatnot dangling from it. It would not start, as you might guess but did start for me when I used the 'retaught' key. I think that might have solved the problem, if she would have used the sucessful key from then on, but I wanted a permanent solution for the rest of the winter anyway.
GM also described the Passlock system as fifteen different resistors that could possibly have been used, thus the reason for the BCM to be retaught. The original had a resistor in the key itself. The module, BCM or previously the TCM, needed to see a small voltage, thru a small wire, that was within a +/- 5% range or the start signal was disabled, some shuting down the fuel injectors, fuel pump delivery. In the cold weather electrons get a little sluggish, and fall outside the necessary range originally programmed into the control module.
Remote start addons replace a resistor inline between two relays, with a diode ahead of the circuit, I believe as a one way valve. The resistance value is first determined while the car is running I think, between the two wires going from the switch to the module.
There are websites that describe all this, along with an aftermarket defeating system that learns the voltage that the module expects to see. I think the whole kit runs about $40. The link is below.
As I said in above post, cutting the white wire, (2003 ION) and putting wire nuts on the severed ends has eliminated the problem, BUT you must cut the wire after the car is RUNNING. The module thinks the circuit has been damaged and falls into a failsafe mode allowing the car to be started from then on. The only side effect is the little yellow padlock icon on the dash stays on.
I may look into disabling the yellow icon later in the spring. For now I don't see a lot of the car as my daughter hasn't been around much; she's busy driving all over town.
http://www.slickcar.com/manuals/pljx.pdf
http://www.autotoys.com/x/catalog/GM_PASSLOCK_BYPASS_IMMOBILIZER_INTERFACE_FOR_R- EMOTE_STARTS_TYP_p_256.html
http://members.tripod.com/alarmtek/GMCISCRAZY.html
I hope others are able to find a solution here. If you read the above you will see that this problem has been around for a while, across a broad spectum of GM products.
As far as I can see the only difference in any of the solultions is the wire color on individual products.
Good luck out there!
My problem is related in as much as I thought it was my battery, so once we got it running I hot-footed it over for a new, high-performance, high-pricetag battery guaranteed to start in sub-zero temps. Needless to say, it still won't. But my problem, in addition to that, is ever since the battery was replaced the sound system in the car does not work and all I get is an '---error---' message. The clock still works just fine so there is power going to the unit. I purchased the car used from a dealer who was always going to get right on the problem of obtaining an owner's manual for me but that never happened, and I have been unable to find one on my own so I can troubleshoot the problem. Am I going to find anyone else with the same problem??? Or is there truly something flukey this time that I can have fixed as soon as I find someone who knows more than I do?
Thanks for the White Wire tip. But I have two questions for you before I do it myself.
(a)
If the Battery is disconnected, with the BCM revert back to it's original status and "forget" that the car is in failsafe mode? Therefore, not letting anyone start the car.
(b)
Along the same lines, if I connect my reader up to the car and reset the errors, will the BCM again revert back to it's original status and "forget" that the car is in failsafe mode? Resulting in the same conclusion as in Question A and not let anyone start the car.
First, check the links for a specific wiring diagram, or solution for your individual car. The white wire I found was specific to 2003/4 Ions. There are many different models made by GM that use this ant-theft circuitry. Thus wire colors are specific as well.
The GM bulletin specifically states that a switch would be put in the "white wire" circuit, and the remote start added as per the aftermarket product describes. This switch would allow removal of batteries, or reading of the specific error codes, while in a normal starting mode, and also allow the car to be selectively started via the five minute rule, revert back to the "open" side of the switch, with or without the error padlock lite on the dash.
I have not added a switch. These are small wires, twenty-guage if I remember correctly, and care should be used especially when adding a switch. Because these wires are so small reflects the 'voltage drop' that occurs in cold weather, just as a long extension cord needs to be a heavier guage wire as distance increases.
Check the links I provided above. (Previous blog). There is a plug-in device, for $30-$40 dollars that supplies the voltage that the BCM requires to start the vehicle. As the BCM is 'fooled' I would assume that there would be no issues as far as changing batteries, etc. I don't think you need to cut wires, or add a switch.
I may add a switch later, or try to reteach the BCM as I described previously. At some point I may try the $30 add on, especially when we trade the car. Otherwise I'll wait till spring; it's twenty degrees here and my daughter isn't home right now anyway.
Hope this helps. Check the links and ask me any other questions and I'll try to update as I can.
Good Luck!
To relearn passlock, you turn the key to start, and release it to run, then wait 10 minutes. Leave like that for 10 mins, do again, then do again. Takes about 30 mins to complete. When 3 cycles complete, turn off car completely for at least 30 seconds. then start car.
Being that he knew right away what the issue was, I did ask why Saturn has not addressed this with a recall when it is happening to so many Ions, and he agreed....
Overall very happy with the car, with the exception of that incident happening on a minus 20 degree day!
Secondly, screw Saturn for having known this problem and not doing anything about it and not even issuing a recall.
Thirdly, screw the dealerships who try to make money out of it. I got a quote of 900$ from the dealership. Thanks to this forum, I am informed wont get conned, but cant help pitying those innocent souls who were conned into buying the whole package.
Fourth, did anyone take up the matter with Saturn Corporate? If yes, can you please share your experiences?
My car has the same problems in sunny CA, so I guess temperature is no the culprit in my car, can any one tell me if they still had problems after the re-learning trick? I am not too comfortable tinkering with white wires, or replacing the ignition switch myself. At the same time I hate to pay the dealership, any ransom.
Is there nothing what we can do to make Saturn issue a recall? Chain mail sent to Saturn Corporate? Is Saturn selling Ions with faulty ignition switches or is this a (only) recognized mode of revenue?
try this again when it fails to start - WHICH IT WILL- and if it works again, that is good enough for me. I would be delighted to hear from any one else who has tried this.
djames2b