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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I do a lot of suburban interstate driving. Short on-ramps, multiple lanes. Passing power isn't too important since there are 3 or 4 lanes from which to choose. Merging in can be tough though, so 0-60 actually matters more to me than 50-80.

    Different strokes, different folks. :)
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    The Malibu 2.4L Ecotec is rated at 22city-30hwy, not 33hwy.

    The Malibu Hybrid is rated at 24city-32hwy.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    With the 6-speed automatic, EPA numbers for the Malibu are now 22/33 for 2009.
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    joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    26/34 for the hybrid model.

    Here is the current model year (09) Malibu breakdown:

    V6 (3.6L 6-speed auto): 18/29
    I4 (2.4L 4-speed auto): 22/30
    I4 (2.4L 6-speed auto): 22/33
    hybrid (2.4L 4-speed auto): 26/34

    The V6 is strong, placing not far from the top of the class, the Sonata and the Accord. The 4 speed should be phased out and the hybrid is certainly just in its mild form.

    With the exception of the 4 speed, the Malibu is very strong; and along with the Hyundai Sonata, both are at the top of their game and the leaderboard. I hear the next-gen Sonata is coming soon, despite its recent major interior facelift, it should be arriving ahead of its normal product cycle. Relevant to current discussions, Hyundai should be showcasing further improvements in the F/E area, along with the introduction of a waong and a hybrid variant. The hybrid would be using lithium ion batteries, and I believe it would be the first of its kind, at least in this class.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It may be a mild hybrid, but it allows the Malibu to get EPA numbers as good or better than most compacts, without the big price premium of a full hybrid.
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Merging in can be tough though, so 0-60 actually matters...

    I think it matters, in that I want it to be adequate and all these midsize cars have adequate acceleration (for me) in their 4 cylindeer models. I personally don't really need, or want to pay for, the excesses of today's 250ish HP V6s.

    To me it does not really matter much if 0-60 is 9.5 sec or 8 sec, other differences are likely to be more important. It also does not matter much to me if 45 to 65 (or whatever) is a bit slower or faster.
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    madpistolmadpistol Member Posts: 126
    The V6 (from the Malibu) is strong, placing not far from the top of the class, the Sonata and the Accord.

    Uhhhhh... where did you pull this from? The strongest V6's in the segment belong to the Altima's 3.5L (270hp/258 lb/ft), Mazda6's 3.7L (272hp/268 lb/ft), and the Passat's 3.6L (280hp/ 265 lb/ft).

    Honda's 3.5L is a close 4th, but it still doesn't have what it takes to play ball with the top 3. And yes, the Camry has the quickest 0-60 time, big whoop. Too bad it rolls around like a dog in a flower bed when you take a corner. :P
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I've been on a lot of Interstate highways, and I can't remember ever merging from 0 mph. 45 to 65mph acceleration is important to me, because often time to pass is limited. How responsive the engine and transmission are, can also make a big difference whether it be a 4cylinder or V6. Reviewers have noted that even with paddle shifters, some transmissions are slow to downshift. At least when I move the shift lever in my Accord to the 3rd gear, I know it's going to be in 3rd gear as soon as I put it there. When there is on-coming traffic, and time is of the essence, I want to be confident that I will get the power I'm asking for. No ifs or maybes.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    The Accord is 271hp/254tq for 2009.

    Has anyone noticed that the non-VCM Accord 3.5L V6 found in the Accord Coupe is rated at 17city-25hwy with a combined 20mpg overall with a 6-speed manual? That's right there with Mazda's 3.7L and has less power. I know it's not a sedan, but, I just thought I would mention it.
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    mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Has anyone noticed that the non-VCM Accord 3.5L V6 found in the Accord Coupe is rated at 17city-25hwy with a combined 20mpg overall with a 6-speed manual? That's right there with Mazda's 3.7L and has less power. I know it's not a sedan, but, I just thought I would mention it.

    Funny you mentioned that, I just noticed that last evening.

    With the amount of complaints I've seen about the VCM-equipped cars not getting the advertised mileage, it seems that Mazda is VERY comparable to the Accord (and others) in terms of FE. Since I've consistently met or exceeded the FE numbers for the '04 V6-equipped Mazda6 (the OLD numbers, not the new ratings), I don't see any problem with FE on the '09 6, despite what the EPA rates are.
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    myk384myk384 Member Posts: 9
    some say the Malibu is great, the Fusion is EuroInspired, but the Accord is the real deamon in this category
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I've been on a lot of Interstate highways, and I can't remember ever merging from 0 mph.

    Rose Avenue on ramp to 101-N in the 'nard, Ca (the "Costco onramp")
    Najoui Falls park and 101-S in northern Santa Barbara County
    Eastbound Michigan Avenue to Southbound Telegraph, Dearborn, MI

    Anytime you are merging behind someone with OH plates :P

    Reviewers have noted that even with paddle shifters, some transmissions are slow to downshift

    That is because they are a joke.

    At least when I move the shift lever in my Accord to the 3rd gear, I know it's going to be in 3rd gear as soon as I put it there.

    I concur, and since the car is geared tall enough to do ~60 in second, downshifting to second becomes an option. The clutch is much easier in the '07 than the '93.
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I've been on a lot of Interstate highways, and I can't remember ever merging from 0 mph.

    Well, a lot of them do now have those dumb red lights 1/2 way down the ramp. Not that I think any of these cars would be inadequate for either that task or passing, based on small differences in acceleration times. (Neither of which I happen to need to do very often, anyway)
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    joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Uhhhhh... where did you pull this from?

    Reading comprehesion > you.

    If you actually read my post, you would have known exactly what I was talking about, and I was talking about fuel economy. I guess detailing the F/E figures still weren't enough...
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    madpistolmadpistol Member Posts: 126
    Reading comprehesion > you.

    If you actually read my post, you would have known exactly what I was talking about, and I was talking about fuel economy. I guess detailing the F/E figures still weren't enough...

    Well, apparently the way you write things plays into this as well. You said "strong" V6's, and usually strength is equated with horsepower and torque. Now, if you had said "fuel economy" or "fuel efficiency" instead, it would have been clearer what you were trying to convey to everyone.

    In other words, my reading comprehension is fine. I read posts for content and usually don't even look at the author's screen name. Just word your posts better next time, and this won't happen again. ;)
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    joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Within the content of the post, nowhere did I mentioned anything close to the relevance of power. It should be noted the word "strong" was followed immediately after a run-down of Malibu's F/E, which the word was reserved for its solid V6 F/E figure.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Sorry, but "strong" always implies power. Efficient would have been a better choice.
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    stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Joe, I write (and read other people's writing) as part of my profession. I can tell you that if readers evidently have problems understanding what a writer has written, as a general rule it's up to the writer to correct it, if the writer's intent is to communicate. So perhaps you could have said something along the lines of this: "Sorry if my original meaning wasn't clear; I was talking about these engines being strong in fuel economy."

    On the other hand, if your purpose is to find an excuse to belittle your reader, you've already succeeded. By not only blaming your reader for misreading your post but by also accusing that reader of stupidity, you have lowered the level of discourse on this forum.

    Also, for the record, I found your post ambiguous, and I'll put my SAT and GRE verbal scores up against yours anyday.

    Have a nice day. :) And hosts, I wonder if now might be a good time to direct us gently back to the topic of midsize sedans.
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    heybroderheybroder Member Posts: 78
    whether or not there are any differences in the '09 Mazda3 from the '08 in the Mazda forum. Perhaps someone can help me here. I'm especially interested in the drivetrain. If I can't get an outstanding deal from the dealer, it'll probably be best to wait until the '10s come out in Feb. tyvm :shades:
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    One thing I can tell you with certainty is that the Mazda3 hasn't been upsized to mid-size class for '09. ;)

    2009 is a carry-over year for the 3. All the Mazda action for 2009 is with the mid-sized, all-new Mazda6.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Suppose you could choose from the following cars, all within a few hundred dollars in price. Which would you go for, and why?

    2007 Hyundai Sonata GLS I4 4AT, 35k miles (some factory warranty left), one owner (rental car) with Preferred Package and moonroof, 6 airbags and ESC, ABS with traction, "Good" condition (very clean, and drives fine but has some dings and some flaws in the interior, OEM Michelins don't have much tread left).

    2007 Mazda6i VE 5AT, 27k miles (some factory warranty left), one owner (rental car), rear spoiler, "Excellent" condition (one small scratch on lower rear bumper, otherwise perfect), has all the VE package stuff including power seat and CD changer, 6 airbags, ABS with traction but no ESC.

    2000 BMW 323i, 5MT, 40k miles, one owner, black leather, moonroof, "Excellent" condition (so the dealer says, although I haven't seen the car in person yet), new clutch, ABS with traction, side airbags (but not curtains).

    (BTW, all 3 cars happen to be silver, all have clean Carfax reports.)

    My head tells me to get the Sonata (or maybe keep looking for a better sample since there's a lot of these coming off lease and rental lots every day) because of the safety features, but my glands tell me to get the 3-Series or the Mazda6, and then trade it after 4 years and get something else (with the latest safety equipment) for my daughter rather than handing the car down to her.

    FWIW, in this class I've also looked at the Fusion/Milan, but they are no better than the same price as the Sonata and Mazda6, and for the money I'd rather have one of those. Accords, Camrys, Altimas, Passats, even smaller cars like the Jetta A5, 2006+ Civic and 2007+ Elantra are considerably more money for similar mileage and condition.
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    mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Tough call.

    First of all, despite how fun they are to drive, BMWs are NOT fun to maintain. An 8-year-old BMW, even with low mileage, can get expensive to maintain, both in parts and labor, and their reliability scores aren't the greatest either.

    That leaves the Sonata and 6. Both are IMO excellent cars, even in the used car market. The Hyundai may have the edge in the passive safety category, but IMO the 6 makes up for it in active safety (great handling, braking, and quick, precise steering). If your "glands" like the 6, then I'd get it. I'd rather enjoy the vehicle that gives me the most pleasure behind the wheel.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yeah, the potential maintenance costs on an 8-year-old car, let alone a BMW, give me pause. There's the rust question too (car has been in MN its entire life). I was thinking that at 40k now and 7-8k a year, I can go awhile without major problems, and I know a mechanic who costs a lot less than dealer service.

    The Mazda6i is a lot more fun to drive than the Sonata, to be sure. Looks-wise there is no contest either IMO.

    The 3-Series is kind of a wishful thing, not very practical, but I am going to check it out this week anyway. It's actually under $12k asking price, too low to pass up a look. If that doesn't work out, it will probably come down to what's the lowest priced Mazda6 or Sonata I can find in the best condition and most warranty left. If I could find another Optima with ABS/ESC I could go that route too (found a really good one recently, but it got snapped up before I got there).
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    csr67csr67 Member Posts: 58
    The BMW will be the best driving car, but it'll kill you in maintenance. Of the other two, I'd take the Mazda 6, but I'd never buy a previous rental. Having been a frequent business traveler and renting cars weekly, I know how true the "drive it like a rental" phrase is. Those miles on the rental are easily double in wear/tear compared to a one owner car. Rentals get driven hard and put away wet...
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I have the same opinion on rentals; I rent frequently also (although I try not to flog them). Except what I am finding is that the used cars (Sonatas or Mazda6's at least) in the best shape and lowest miles are all rentals! I did find the one private-party Optima and should have grabbed it faster, but there's a LOT of former rentals out there. And I have been pleasantly surprised by their condition. Most of the pristine cars I've found were rentals. So if I am going to go the used route, I think it will be hard for me to avoid former rentals.
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    iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    you could always take the Maz6 and the Sonata to a mechanic to have them checked. I didn't realize BMW's were so expensive to maintain. German cars aren't getting it done lately for reliability. If I were you I'd get those two cars looked at by a mechanic, while you keep looking for Optima's.

    backy-does the '09 Kia Optima has ESC as standard equipment? You're not looking for a new car in this discussion, though, huh?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I haven't seen anything in the 2009 Optima announcements to indicate that it has standard ESC. I was looking at new cars until recently, when it became clear I wouldn't find an Elantra SE or Touring in my timeframe at a decent price, I wouldn't find an Optima with ESC, and the prices of the 2009 Sonatas keep climbing--and while they are improved over 2006-8, I can live with those years. Also there's lots of sharp low-miles 2006-7 Mazda6i's out there with the Sports/VE package. And the 3-Series option. So I have started looking used, with the thought that I can either keep it long-term or sell it after 4 years and look for something else long-term for my daughter.

    Any used car I buy will have a clean Carfax and will be thoroughly checked. I am trying to stick to cars with 2-3 years of factory warranty left--except the 3-Series of course.
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    iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    I have started to look upon the Mazda 6's with a particular fondness. I am not interested in buying one for myself, but they have a certain sportiness to them that I like. I also haven't spent much time researching them, but, haven't heard many blatant negatives whilst surfing the net, either. The new '09 Maz6 looks good to me in pictures, but an older one would no doubt be a good car, too, if you can agree on price and the 6 hasn't been neglected. Do keep us filled in as to what you do.

    Are you completely through looking for Kia Optima's then?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I didn't realize BMW's were so expensive to maintain.

    Are they more expensive than Japanese? It depends on the mechanic and what goes wrong and what the labor rates are and whether you get genuine or genuine parts. A friend of mine had an Accord with 200,000 miles need a tranny. Estimates for a rebuilt were 2,000, 4,000 for new. That would be right in line with BMW, Lexus and Infiniti and probably Sonota and Mazda, et al.

    You can get soaked if you don't know what you are doing. Example, friend has a 2006 MDX, dealer charged 275 for a 7,500 mile service. I paid $275 for a 30,000 mile service on my car.

    It might be a true assumption a BMW costs more to maintain than an Accord, but I wouldn't trust any 8 year old car to be trouble free.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Euro brands are, in general, more expensive to maintain than a mainstream American, Japanese, or Korean brand. Just FWIW.

    :)
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe not completely through with the Optima, but they are so darn rare with ABS (and ESC), new or used, that it is like the proverbial needle in a haystack. So I've pretty much lost hope of finding one. The Mazda6, Fulan, Sonata, even the Elantra, are good alternatives (talking "slightly used" cars here), and all have at least ABS standard.

    Just found a very sharp Elantra GLS AT with low miles, moonroof, and my favorite color for the Elantra, carbon grey. Price is pretty good, but not low enough compared to the 2007 Mazda6i VE I found. We'll see...
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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,323
    the high powered v6 popular sedans are becoming less popular as 4cyl and better transmissions/hybrids become more available.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If money talks and used car prices are any indication, I'm finding often that the I4 sedans cost more than comparable V6 versions now. :surprise:
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    oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    You might consider the Saturn Aura. ABS, ESC, and Traction Control are standard on the 08's. The model they dropped for 09 - the XE 3.5 - gets excellent fuel economy and has 219 HP on tap.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
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    heybroderheybroder Member Posts: 78
    As far as reliability, which motor is superior, the 2.0 or the 2.3? I know the 2.5 l4 in the new Mazda6 is a bored out 2.3 that is used in the Mazda3. I am considering buying a Mazda3 but need to find out which is the best engine....not looking for gas milage; looking for longevity/reliability. tyvm :shades:
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    stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I'm pretty sure the 2.0 is the same engine as well. So they should be equivalent in longevity. But really, isn't the Mazda3 a compact, rather than a midsize?
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    lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Question. When considering the rentals, where does the warranty come into play for any of the vehicles? i.e. like Hyundai 5yr 60K.. what is covered?

    van
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    heybroderheybroder Member Posts: 78
    tyvm for info. Yes it isn't a midsize but can not find anyone that will give info in the Mazda3 area. Therefore, I am forced to ask here. Again, tyvm. :shades:
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Give the "Economy Sedans ($16k-$20k)" Forum a try. I know I have a watch on that one, I imagine many do.

    Here are links to that, and another you may find interesting. I'd love to get these two topics cranked up again; I'll join you at these links if you'll post there instead of here. I'm sure others will as well. :)

    Civic vs. Corolla vs. 3 Forum

    Economy Sedans (16k-$20k)
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    2007 Mazda6i VE 5AT...ABS with traction but no ESC.

    I chose that same version of the Mazda6 as a new car. In the end, since a number of cars were acceptable, it kind of came down to the reasons that you give:

    The Mazda6i is a lot more fun to drive...Looks-wise there is no contest either.

    I also think the 5 speed automatic is an advantage over having only 4 and while ESC would have been nice, as someone else pointed out the Mazda6 does have great handling and braking.

    Might it be easier to resell the Mazda6? Potential buyers may tend to assume, rightly or wrongly that any Japanese namplate = reliability.
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    leonfamleonfam Member Posts: 21
    Having a hard time selecting between 2 used cars.

    2004 Accord EX, cloth, 69K miles, one owner and well maintained

    2007 Elantra GLS with good options, 30K miles, prior rental car

    Close in price. Accord is a bit "more car" that we need, but think we will be getting a more reliable car. We are car keepers. This one will be the second car, and used mainly for short distance commuting.

    Like the newer safety features on the Elantra, and see that initial quality has improved. Stats on long term reliability (from CR) are not impressive.

    Clearly not apples to apples..and that is what makes it tricky!
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    "Rental" for the Elantra is what scares me, for you. The Elantra is a good car, but with a different driver every week, it would scare me a little; as rentals take a good deal of abuse.

    I'll go ahead and say I'm biased since I own a 2006 Accord EX cloth (4-cylinder) and love it; great mileage for the power it has, and it handles beautifully. That said, the Elantra has benefits too, as you've noted!

    If it were me, I'd do a carfax on the Honda and make sure it hasn't been wrecked; have a mechanic look it over, and go with that one. That's just personal perspective, of course.

    Does the Honda have service records?
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    leonfamleonfam Member Posts: 21
    Yeah, here you on the rental. That is why I'm not sold on the Elantra. Though, we've got a 94 Mitsh LR-V still in the extended family that was a rental and has held up well. I suppose we are thinking that the warranty will offer some protection. Is that a good way to think about it?

    Carfax on the Honda is clean. Service records available..though doesn't mean major repairs have been pulled out. Serviced at dealer and at private mechanic.

    We have a young child...so the side curtain air bags in the Elantra are appealing. Also, the Elantra seems to ride "higher". Our other car is an 07 CR-V, so the Accord would take some getting used to.

    Seems minor..but the Accord is ~2 feet longer than the CR-V. We do lots of parralel parking, so those 24 inches will be noticed!

    Better half is biased to a Honda..quality perspective..though some of the talk on the Honda forums have me feeling a bit cautious about relying on the Honda reputation.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So do you know where I can get a 2008 Aura in excellent condition with low miles for around $12k? That's the price range the other cars are in that I am looking at.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    As far as Hyundais go, if the car was originally a rental and not owned by anyone else yet (I have been told auctioneers and dealers don't count), then the remainder of the 5/60k bumper-to-bumper warranty transfers to the 2nd owner.
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    stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Of the cars that are generally perceived as belonging to the "compact" class (Civic, Mazda3, Corolla, Elantra, et al), my impression (based on what I've read) is that the Elantra comes closest to mimicking the feel of a larger car. If that's good, then this comparison is particularly apt, because that generation of Accord was one of the more nimble members of the midsize class (though not quite up to Mazda6 levels). Also, I think the fuel economy will be comparable.

    As I understand it, the Hyundai warranty only runs to 5 years/60k miles for secondhand purchasers, and there are some tales out there that suggests Hyundai has a pretty broad interpretation of "normal wear and tear," so the warranty might not provide as much protection as desired. On the other hand, the only "warranty" you get on the Honda is the name itself, and that's not 100% bankable either.

    My biggest problem with Hyundai isn't the cars--on the whole, they seem to be very competitive in their respective classes. It's the dealer network--while there are improvements afoot, too many Hyundai dealers are still peddling the cars as a sideline to a used-car business. Moreover, here in central Georgia we've gone from having one Hyundai dealer to having four, to having two, to having three, all within the last two years. The franchise moves around so much it might as well have a prepaid cell as its only phone line. So service is somewhat questionable, even though you have the factory warranty.

    So I'd be inclined to go with the Accord, despite wanting Hyundai to succeed.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ...there are some tales out there that suggests Hyundai has a pretty broad interpretation of "normal wear and tear,"...

    Could you please elaborate, with some examples? I've never had a problem having a reasonable warranty claim (and even some that were a bit of a stretch) honored by Hyundai with the two cars I've owned over the past 8 years.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Better half is biased to a Honda..quality perspective..though some of the talk on the Honda forums have me feeling a bit cautious about relying on the Honda reputation.

    Just remember, only the people who actually have problems will report. Those that have nothing to report don't typically say "no problems here" and move on. For every problem report there will be lots more people who don't have them to report. This will be true for all makes on the boards.

    Also, I'm not sure how long you've been around, but oddly, Honda boards seem to get more hits than those from Toyota, Hyundai, Ford etc... or so it seems to me anyway.

    We have a young child...so the side curtain air bags in the Elantra are appealing. Also, the Elantra seems to ride "higher". Our other car is an 07 CR-V, so the Accord would take some getting used to.

    Seems minor..but the Accord is ~2 feet longer than the CR-V. We do lots of parralel parking, so those 24 inches will be noticed!

    That is important to consider; depending on the area you parallel in, the Elantra may actually be the better choice. Don't forget to consider outward visibility, too.

    Carfax on the Honda is clean. Service records available..though doesn't mean major repairs have been pulled out. Serviced at dealer and at private mechanic.

    I raised the question to ask how it was maintained. If you can see that it received the proper maintenance items (fluid changes in a timely manner, etc) that'd be a little more comforting. The Elantra being a rental, I think it is safe to assume this was done on the Hyundai, also. Both cars should be relatively low maintenance, however. And, if there WAS a major repair, a mechanic's inspection should be able to point that out.

    I'm just trying to think out loud with you... hope it helps a little. :shades:

    TheGrad
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    leonfamleonfam Member Posts: 21
    Thanks, TheGrad. Very helpful. As for the maintenance records..thanks for the further explanation. I talked over maintenance with the owner, but didn't do a detailed review of the records. His version is yes, maintenance done on schedule, with the caveat that not all oil changes were done strictly every 3500 miles.

    Need to go deeper on the maintenance records, for sure. :surprise:
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    heybroderheybroder Member Posts: 78
    tyvm thegraduate for info. I did as you requested...in both forums. Hopefully, you can give me some expert info. :shades:
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