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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You can certainly look at that and compare cars too...a new one should be out in a few months.

    You could, but since the Fusion was introduced as a 2006 model and the 2008 dependability survey will be looking at 2005 models, it won't be included. Thus the "have to wait 3 years" comment earlier.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    whenever a domestic model doesn't sell as well as a "foreign" competitor then we are all just brainwashed, status seeking buffoons.

    That's not the point. The brainwashing occurs when people are blindly choosing a Camry over a Fusion because they *think* the Camry is more reliable even when all available statistics and user experiences says otherwise.

    There are many reasons why someone would choose a Camry or Accord over a Fusion. Reliability should not be one of them.
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    moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    I should mention one thing...that could be shown to be better in a few years. The 3 year long term dependability surveys DO put toyota and honda ahead of most other brands. They lose to the luxury marks and mid-tier brands such as buick/mercury, but ford/hyundai/gm/etc are in the average area instead of above average. Toyota/Honda are in the 170 PPV range while most average companies are in the 220-240 range. It's not a huge gap, but it does need to be closed.

    I'm just glad we're not dealing with land rovers or VW's up in the 300-400 PPV area ;) Hopefully by the 2011 survey, we'll see some awesome results for the american/non-japanese sides.

    One interesting note, Kia has made major strides, they were last in the 2005 survey. Now they're heading toward mid-pack with a 100 PPV improvement. One reason I shy away from Kia is due to their lower scores vs their sibling Hyundai in most measurements.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The brainwashing occurs when people are blindly choosing a Camry over a Fusion because they *think* the Camry is more reliable even when all available statistics and user experiences says otherwise.

    I couldn't disagree more. My experiences with Camry owners are that they love their cars. I know more people with Fords with problems than owners of Toyotas. If you are using CR as a yardstick I wouldn't buy a Camry, but not because CR says I shouldn't buy it, because it's not for me. There is simply no plausible evidence to suggest an individual Camry owner will find their new purchase to be anything less than stellar and certainly better than Ford.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    My experiences with Camry owners are that they love their cars.

    I see reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I said there are lots of perfectly legitimate reasons why someone might buy a Camry over a Fusion. That includes "I have one and love it","I prefer the styling","I prefer this feature","it has a color or feature I like","I just like Toyotas", etc. That is not the issue.

    I know more people with Fords with problems than owners of Toyotas.

    That is precisely the type of brainwashing that we're talking about. If that's the ONLY information available to make a decision, then that would be ok. But it's not. How many of those people own recent model year vehicles? Probably not very many. All that proves is that in your extremely tiny statistically insignificant sample of vehicles that were built 3, 5, 8 or 10 years ago or more there were more Fords with problems than Toyotas. It doesn't prove anything about whether a current Ford or Toyota product will be bad or good.

    There is simply no plausible evidence to suggest an individual Camry owner will find their new purchase to be anything less than stellar and certainly better than Ford.

    That's the most ridiculous statement you've made in quite some time. ALL of the scientific, objective evidence currently available says that the Fusion is just as reliable as a Camry and in some cases, more reliable.

    This precisely the brainwashing I was referring to. You can't ignore current, objective data in favor of your subjective and biased opinions based on 5, 10 or even 20 year old vehicles.

    That doesn't mean the Camry will fall apart - it won't (not counting engine sludge and bad trannys) - it simply means that neither will the Fusion. So stop trying to pass off subjective biases as objective facts.
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    john178john178 Member Posts: 48
    This is precisely the point I made earlier- the brainwashing for subjective reasons- not objective reasons or facts. Domestics like the Fusion and Malibu compare quite favorably with Camrys and Accords, but too many people are still stuck on years ago when the quality gap was significant. So if someone favors the Camry or Accord over the Fusion or Malibu for style, options, price, whatever- fine. Just don't use the quality factor or status symbol to disregard domestics.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    We are creatures of habit. If we buy one Accord or Camry, and if it meets or exceeds our expectations, we will buy another one. When we find something that satisfies us, we tend to stick with it. I would not call that "Brainwashing". I call that EARNING a reputation for building good cars. Accords and Camrys will have to start disappointing owners, for them to switch back to domestics. I don't see it happening yet.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    In a way, "if it didn't break, don't fix it."

    Reliability and quality played a part in my shopping experience before choosing my Accord, but it wasn't solely "to blame" for my choice. I preferred the interior style and powertrain of the 2006 Accord over all of its competitors.Having best in class resale and excellent reliability, along with a great dealer nearby and my previous excellent experience with my '96 Accord (which I still drive regularly and now has nearly 182k miles on it), the Accord was a VERY obvious choice.

    Yes, the Accord was the first midsizer I looked at, but it wasn't the only. Before shopping, the bar was set at my old '96. To set the bar again, I drove a fairly known entity, another Accord. From there I shopped, and the Accord couldn't be beat for what I wanted.
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    We are creatures of habit. If we buy one Accord or Camry, and if it meets or exceeds our expectations, we will buy another one. When we find something that satisfies us, we tend to stick with it.

    Or we are just dumb. I would say the '93 was average in terms of reliability, but above average in terms of sportiness. I would say that has reversed for the '07. I have had the wife's Subaru wagon this week and I have really enjoyed driving it. Its much more fun to drive, even if it is a wagon.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    When we find something that satisfies us, we tend to stick with it.

    I agree to a point. When I find a car that satisfies me and is reliable, I will definitely consider that same brand when it's time to buy my next car. But I will look at all of the alternatives also. Why bother to do that? Because in the years since my last car purchase, things have changed. New models emerge, automakers improve (or decline!) in quality, etc. Say I bought an Accord five years ago and it gave me great service. I would of course look at the Accord again when it came time to buy my next car. But if I looked ONLY at the Accord, I'd miss out on several other fine mid-sized cars such as the Altima, Aura, Camry, Fusion/Milan, Malibu, Optima, Passat, and Sonata that have all been redesigned in the past five years. Who knows, I might find something I like even better than the current Accord. Or find a car I like about as much as the Accord, but costs thousands less. I'd never know unless I looked around.
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    packer3packer3 Member Posts: 277
    Moo
    Thats what I've always found interesting about these surveys, especially when there made by the same company like KIA, Hyundai, Chevy,Buick etc they could be the same car with different sheet metal but only one car is named, does the Mfg. turn on a different switch when they change models. Also KIA has improved got some nice cars, however when you read alot of threads from different sites and hear people complain you have to wonder why is some of the feedback is different then what JD Powers reports, should basically be the same people no.
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    packer3packer3 Member Posts: 277
    Besides that, people have a lot a pride in what they buy and are not willing to tell people or JD Powers when they are having a problem with there Honda or Toyota the answers get fabricated at times.
    Your right Accords and Camrys earned it, the big three use to have the identical reputation years back, nobody would even think about buying a Japanese car, so they indeed have a long road back.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Haha, sorry, I think that's a little far-fetched. I'd be more willing to believe that if a Honda owner bought their car for being reliable, they'd be more angry with a problematic car and willing to tell the world it was a mistake rather than the other way around.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    people have a lot a pride in what they buy and are not willing to tell people or JD Powers when they are having a problem with there Honda or Toyota the answers get fabricated at times.

    Pride has nothing to do with it. At least not in my situation. If I had major problems with my 92 Accord, I wouldn't have kept it for 12 years. I definitely wouldn't have bought another one in 03. No, not "pride" or "brainwashing". Just a very high quality, and reliable car ownership experience. The Accord has the highest repeat buyer percentage for good reason. If a car has been a lemon, no amount of "brainwashing" or "pride" will convince you otherwise, IMO.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Or we are just dumb. I would say the '93 was average in terms of reliability, but above average in terms of sportiness. I would say that has reversed for the '07. I have had the wife's Subaru wagon this week and I have really enjoyed driving it. Its much more fun to drive, even if it is a wagon.

    Dumb? Wow. Speak for yourself :surprise: . My 92 Accord (same as your 93) was a great car for it's time, but I think my 03 (same as your 07) is even better. The 92 had better handling, but it also had a rougher ride. The 92 (4th gen) Accord was sooo much lighter/smaller than the 7th gen Accord. A V6 engine was not even offered then. To me, the 92 Accord is more comparable to the current Civic, than the current Accord. Maybe it's "dumb", but I didn't expect the 03 Accord to be just like the 92.
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Or we are just dumb. I would say the '93 was average in terms of reliability, but above average in terms of sportiness. I would say that has reversed for the '07. I have had the wife's Subaru wagon this week and I have really enjoyed driving it. Its much more fun to drive, even if it is a wagon.

    Dumb? Wow. Speak for yourself . My 92 Accord (same as your 93) was a great car for it's time, but I think my 03 (same as your 07) is even better. The 92 had better handling, but it also had a rougher ride. The 92 (4th gen) Accord was sooo much lighter/smaller than the 7th gen Accord. A V6 engine was not even offered then. To me, the 92 Accord is more comparable to the current Civic, than the current Accord. Maybe it's "dumb", but I didn't expect the 03 Accord to be just like the 92.

    Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was calling everyone dumb. It was a bad buying decision for me, based solely on price. There are other cars in the category that are skewed more to the performance end of the spectrum. I bought vanilla, now I am mad I didn't at least go for chocolate chip. And why did I buy the only car with out an aux in and now way to play MP3s?
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    packer3packer3 Member Posts: 277
    people have a lot a pride in what they buy and are not willing to tell people or JD Powers when they are having a problem with there Honda or Toyota the answers get fabricated at times.

    Pride has nothing to do with it. At least not in my situation. If I had major problems with my 92 Accord, I wouldn't have kept it for 12 years. I definitely wouldn't have bought another one in 03. No, not "pride" or "brainwashing". Just a very high quality, and reliable car ownership experience. The Accord has the highest repeat buyer percentage for good reason. If a car has been a lemon, no amount of "brainwashing" or "pride" will convince you otherwise, IMO.

    I'm somewhat of a pride person, had been leasing 2 Chevy's every 3 years since 1990, had a lot of issues but kept going back like a dope and if people would ask me about the car or suv I would tell them half the truth. I felt after the three year term the cars definetly would have gotten better, I was wrong and got tired.
    In March I leased an 08 Accord LX-P my first Japanese car, I said I would never get one but my wife convinced me and I'll tell ya. I should have done it a long time ago.
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    busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    When we find something that satisfies us, we tend to stick with it.

    I agree to a point. When I find a car that satisfies me and is reliable, I will definitely consider that same brand when it's time to buy my next car. But I will look at all of the alternatives also. Why bother to do that? Because in the years since my last car purchase, things have changed. New models emerge, automakers improve (or decline!) in quality, etc. Say I bought an Accord five years ago and it gave me great service. I would of course look at the Accord again when it came time to buy my next car. But if I looked ONLY at the Accord, I'd miss out on several other fine mid-sized cars such as the Altima, Aura, Camry, Fusion/Milan, Malibu, Optima, Passat, and Sonata that have all been redesigned in the past five years. Who knows, I might find something I like even better than the current Accord. Or find a car I like about as much as the Accord, but costs thousands less. I'd never know unless I looked around.

    I guess I look at it a different way. While I certainly agree with Backy (I also look at all models in my $/size/MPG range when buying), I also tend to shy away from brands that I have had horrible experiences owning in earlier times. I'm not saying I wouldn't buy another from the same brand, but there must be some over-riding or compelling reason for me to do so.

    As was in an earlier posting, back in the early 70's no one would look seriously at a Japanese car. The big 3 had the market in the palm of their hand, but failed to do what was necessary to keep it, and the imports got a foot-hold. We all know the story, and I'm willing to bet that most of us who are at least 50 can tell some really good stories about some of the domestic brand cars we have owned...not that the imports aren't without their faults, too.

    Anyway, I'm just a bit reluctant to buy domestic these days. However, some models do look promising. Say, the new Malibu, for instance. I want to sit by for a bit and see how it holds up over the next 3-4 years, and then, maybe I will reconsider buying domestic once again...
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116

    Anyway, I'm just a bit reluctant to buy domestic these days. However, some models do look promising. Say, the new Malibu, for instance. I want to sit by for a bit and see how it holds up over the next 3-4 years, and then, maybe I will reconsider buying domestic once again...

    Something with a proven track record by you personally, or something that has burnt you personally in the past...hmm yeah I wonder what I would do...

    I agree, its going to take a few model cycles to get people with history to look at some of the domestic offerings, and if they slip up, it would be disastrous. I think they should do something to get those people back in, and while some people have some really extreme ideas, mine isn't as aggressive or far reaching. If you had to replace your transmission or head gasket, give a check for about that amount towards the new car or something.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    But if I looked ONLY at the Accord, I'd miss out on several other fine mid-sized cars such as the Altima, Aura, Camry, Fusion/Milan, Malibu, Optima, Passat, and Sonata that have all been redesigned in the past five years.

    There may be many potential car consumers not interested in the ownership of Ford, Nissan, GM, Toyota, Hyundia or Kia. So why bother looking? And more importantly why should they bother explaining it?

    When someone wants to give me my next car, I'll drive what they think is the right pick.

    As a side note in the last 5 years Honda has raised the bar also.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That's not the point. The brainwashing occurs when people are blindly choosing a Camry over a Fusion because they *think* the Camry is more reliable even when all available statistics and user experiences says otherwise.

    There are many reasons why someone would choose a Camry or Accord over a Fusion. Reliability should not be one of them.

    I'm circling back on this. That may be your criteria, but people may have a different experience or know someone who has a different experience, in spite of published results. Which is one reason I never take these surveys into account. With the exception of the 10 people on this forum, no one I know uses "published reliability data points" in determining their next purchase. I do not underestimate word of mouth and first/second hand experiences with cars and dealers with regards to purchases.

    If I believe Camry is more reliable than Fusion and you believe different you can call me ignorant, brainwashed and stupid, but at the end of the day Toyota might be getting my money, for my reasons and all of the head-bashing on this board ain't gonna change that sale.

    (As a side note I would buy a Camry over a Fusion for a lot of reasons, reliability though isn't one of them.)
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    (As a side note I would buy a Camry over a Fusion for a lot of reasons, reliability though isn't one of them.)

    For the sake of us ignorant ones, what would those reasons be?
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I was giving my opinion on the subject. If others want to consider only one car or one brand, that's their business and they should do what they want with their hard-earned money.

    But just wondering... if someone never considers other alternatives besides Honda, how would they know if they have "raised the bar" higher than their competition? Or maybe it doesn't matter to them, e.g. "I like Honda, I've had good experience with them in the past, so I don't care what other automakers offer--I just know the Accord is the right choice for me."
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    but people may have a different experience or know someone who has a different experience, in spite of published results. Which is one reason I never take these surveys into account. With the exception of the 10 people on this forum, no one I know uses "published reliability data points" in determining their next purchase. I do not underestimate word of mouth and first/second hand experiences with cars and dealers with regards to purchases.

    Good grief - nobody is trying to tell YOU what to buy. We're talking about making general, objective statements that one brand or model is better than another when the objective evidence suggests otherwise.

    You must not understand statistical analysis. Let's say you own a Sony TV and you love it - never had a problem with it. However, 82% of the people who bought that same TV had a major failure within 2 years while the failure rate for other similar TVs was 10%. Based on your criteria, you'd buy the Sony again based on your perception that it was more reliable when the objective evidence says that it's totally the opposite.

    And if you know that a product is statistically less reliable than another product but you choose to buy it anyway because you like it - THAT'S FINE. But that's NOT the same thing as ignoring large sample surveys and hard data and instead relying on your own extremely small sample to make objective comparisons.

    Do you not comprehend the difference?
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    people have a lot a pride in what they buy and are not willing to tell people or JD Powers when they are having a problem with there Honda or Toyota the answers get fabricated at times.

    My dad is kinda like that. He has had his tranny replaced in his 2004 Accord V6, and yet to this day he tells people he has had no issues, including me! Because Honda replaced the tranny, he figures nothing went wrong. There are a many Honda/Acura people out there who act like that. Except those VCM owners, they seem to be in full force in expressing their unhappiness.
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    m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I have a 2003 Tundra that had the tranny replaced at 43000 miles. While I tell people that I have had virtually no other problems with the Toyota truck....I never fail to mention the tranny was replaced. I can't say that when I was younger if I would have though. I could very well have ommitted that detail in my zealousness for the vehicle back then.

    I had a 1993 Buick LaSabre that I really liked and would tell people I had good luck with it. When I sat down one day and looked at the folder that I kept all the repair bills in, I was shocked to realize all the money I had put into that car over the years. I really liked the car and the major repairs were somewhat spread out. However, the total numbers were pretty staggering when I added them all up. So, I agree. It is easy to whitewash some experience with a vehicle if the vehicle is liked. I would venture to say the opposite is true to some degree as well though.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    For the sake of us ignorant ones, what would those reasons be?

    Two reasons:

    1. I like the car better,
    2. The nearest Toyota dealership provides excellent service.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Friend had a Ford with some real issues. Gave them all the time and world to fix the problems, as the car was liked. After weeks of being in the shop a lemon law suit was initiated and won. Now drives a Honda.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Good grief

    Based on your criteria, you'd buy the Sony again based on your perception that it was more reliable when the objective evidence says that it's totally the opposite

    These surveys only matter to a very few individuals. The only real way to collect this data is to mine the manufacturers database of repair records for all of it's models. Otherwise it's a statistical summary of an interpetation, IMO. Which is why first and second hand knowledge of the vehicle and dealerships is more important to me in choosing a car than the surveys.

    To me choosing a car is very much like choosing a Doctor. When possible I choose docs based on first hand recommendations, rather than looking through listings and surveys.

    Since there is no way to verify these surveys of opinions I take them with a grain of salt.
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    aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Good for your friend.

    No need to defend Honda there, because I was not comparing a Ford to a Honda.

    My point being that Honda's, like every other car, are not perfect. There are many who have had issues, some serious and some not. Some current and some past. My whole point was that there are some that will simply ignore the fact they had an issue just because it was fixed, and say the vehicle has never had a problem, which was originally stated by someone else.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Otherwise it's a statistical summary of an interpetation, IMO. Which is why first and second hand knowledge of the vehicle and dealerships is more important to me in choosing a car than the surveys.

    As opposed to YOUR statistical summary of an interpretation of a MUCH SMALLER sample? There is no difference other than you only surveyed a few people rather than thousands.

    You are welcome to your subjective opinions but - and I'm saying this for the 100th time at least - STOP TRYING TO PASS THEM OFF AS OBJECTIVE FACTS.

    Subjectively you think the Camry is better. Subjectively I think the Fusion is better. We're both right. But objectively, using the only statistically valid data available - they both have the same level of reliability.
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    m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    The population of the surveys may be completely different and the larger one would be statistically more correct. However, kdshapiro is using a sample of trusted sources versus anonymous sources and considers their weight to be much greater. I can understand that as I guess I use both methods to some degree, but nobody should try to say that because my small circle of friends and relatives had no major problems that this represents proven fact or even a major trend.

    I think that when making a decision on spending $20000 or more, all available data should be taken into consideration. The trick is how much credence you give each particular data set.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    As opposed to YOUR statistical summary of an interpretation of a MUCH SMALLER sample?

    Yes, because in the end I have to do what I feel is right and I am comfortable with and the way my intuition and heart tells me to proceed. This is not a business decision, and even businesses with their extremely highly paid professionals make mistakes...eg the sub-prime housing market.

    You are welcome to your subjective opinions but - and I'm saying this for the 100th time at least - STOP TRYING TO PASS THEM OFF AS OBJECTIVE FACTS.

    In the end the only objective fact is who gets the dollars.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    However, kdshapiro is using a sample of trusted sources versus anonymous sources and considers their weight to be much greater.

    And there is nothing wrong with that if you're making a personal purchasing decision. I do it all the time.

    However, making objective statements on a public forum that one vehicle is better than another when the only available somewhat objective data says something different is irresponsible.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    So, if 5 of your friends own Fusions and have had 0 problems in 3 years and 5 of your friends own a Camry and 3 of them have had engine sludge or transmission problems in the first 3 years - would that make you buy a Fusion over a Camry?

    Somehow I doubt it.
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    Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Why? Why? Why do we care what information someone ultimately used to make their purchasing decision. No one is forcing anyone else to use the same criteria.

    If I decided to purchase a spiffmobile because it's the only one that comes in lime green exterior/interior combo, then that's my perogative.

    Let's stop challenging others on their personal choices and stick to talking about cars... not what one believes another members would/wouldn't do give a certain dataset.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If I decided to purchase a spiffmobile because it's the only one that comes in lime green exterior/interior combo, then that's my perogative.

    Its funny you mention it, I happen to have a low-mileage Lime Green Spiffmobile for sale. Let me know if you're interested. ;)
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    tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Its funny you mention it, I happen to have a low-mileage Lime Green Spiffmobile for sale. Let me know if you're interested

    Does it have those hard to find day-glo orange fuzzy dice hanging from the rearview mirror? If so, I might be interested. ;)
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Sorry, its got the purple dice. Try craigslist. Ha-ha. ;)

    Say, when does the new Mazda 6 hit the streets?
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't care about someone's subjective opinion and purchasing criteria as long as they don't try to pass off their opinions as facts to others (folks who may be trying to decide what car THEY want to buy) when the only available facts contradict their "opinions".

    State opinions as opinions and facts as facts and stop mixing the two. It's confusing to people who are actually reading these forums for objective information.
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    Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Well, fortunately the internet is wide open, should you wish to create a message board with such criteria and terms of use. I checked, and akirbyautoforums.com is available :)

    We operate on the premise that all opinions, if stated civilly, are welcome. We presume our members to be savvy enough to read info posted here, and elsewhere by our editors, and on other sites and then determine for themselves what is or isn't valid, and I doubt anyone is seriously addled about what's important to them after nearly 10,000 messages in this discussion alone.

    Let's move on to discussing vehicles, rather than who posts messages and how they're phrased.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I don't understand what is accomplished by allowing people to make inaccurate factual statements unchallenged. Then you'd just end up with a bunch of people arguing with each other over their opinions and which one is more valid.

    Oh wait.........
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    m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Well, fortunately the internet is wide open, should you wish to create a message board with such criteria and terms of use

    So Kirstie, are you saying that this forum would be useful to people looking for info on midsize cars if what they found was something like......
    Accord is the best car and that's that, don't question it!
    Camry is the best car and that's that, don't question it!
    Altima is the best car and that's that, don't question it!
    etc, etc, etc,
    without anyone challenging or asking if the person making the statement has any objective data to back it up???

    We operate on the premise that all opinions, if stated civilly, are welcome

    I don't think you would find one person on this forum that disagrees with your above statement. However, is it too much to ask that someone at least caveats their personal opinions as such??
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    moocow1moocow1 Member Posts: 230
    I don't mind opinions if they are stated as opinions. I do think misinformation and non-facts stated as hard truths should be challenged and striken in any forum where people debate. Opinions should be free, deceit should be exposed. That is all.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    And that is all that I'm asking - don't state opinions as if they were objective facts.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    So Kirstie, are you saying that this forum would be useful to people looking for info on midsize cars if what they found was something like......
    Accord is the best car and that's that, don't question it!
    Camry is the best car and that's that, don't question it!
    Altima is the best car and that's that, don't question it!
    etc, etc, etc,
    without anyone challenging or asking if the person making the statement has any objective data to back it up???

    Do you think anyone reading this forum would read the one post that said "Camry is the best car, don't question it!", and say to him/herself "Ok that does it, I'm going to buy a Camry". Give people a little more credit than that.

    IMO, the Accord is "the car for me", and I have stated that in so many words. Everyone does not agree with that, and that's ok. I don't expect everyone who reads one of my posts to go out and buy an Accord, and they should not expect me to go out and buy the car they say is best. It's all just opinion, and what one person calls facts are not necessarily seen as facts by someone else.
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    m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Please give me a little more credit. I hope most people reading my post realized I was just trying to keep it simple to make a point. I didn't mean it as a direct example and I've never seen a post as simple as "Camry is the best car and that's that". And no, I don't think anyone would just take that at face value. However, some posters make statements that appear to be researched and a proven fact, when in reality, they are just giving their opinion. I think most of us would just appreciate it if they would acknowledge that it is just their opinion.

    If you like the Accord(I certainly have nothing against it) then that's the car for you. I don't get any jollies at trying to influence other people's car buying decisions. I just like people to admit that when they are stating something and can't back it up with subjective argument, that is just their opinion they are stating. I love different people's opinions, it's what make good discussion. If we all thought the same it would be a pretty boring discussion.

    I also believe there are facts in the auto world...not just opinions. "A car has an engine". That is a fact. "The engine in my car is the quietest"(without subjective proof) is an opinion!

    I think we have pretty much beat this to death IMHO.
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    patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill!! :)

    This is a board full of opinions, that's what we are all about. It seems very doubtful that anyone who is reading these postings would not know that.

    People are free to state their opinions in any manner they choose as long as they are stated civilly, as Kirstie said.

    If you think someone stated an opinion as a fact and you disagree with said "fact" you are free to present an alternative point of view and we encourage you to do so!

    What we are asking is that the instructing of others on how to word their posts cease. It's not necessary and it interferes with the civil conversation that most of us wish to be having.

    'kay?
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Anyone think it's worth a few thou more than the regular Passat? For the privilege of carrying one fewer passenger?
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Anyone think it's worth a few thou more than the regular Passat? For the privilege of carrying one fewer passenger?

    I think that is solely dependent on the passenger I get to exclude. ;)
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