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That's very interesting. Do you live in Canada or the US?
We consumers need to fight back!!! Start taking video of your issues and start posting them on facebook and youtube!
So far I haven't had a performance issue except for once, but that was very unsettling.
My milage is between 31 and 32 mpg. Consistently, since I had the software upgrade which really should be called a software downgrade.
So, what I've been doing is not resetting my "B" odometer to document the mileage issue.
I'd like to see an event where HCH owners park their cars on the main road leading to the auto mall to protest/hold signs, etc. about our crappy cars all on the same day. Like the day the new models go on sale.
If followers on this forum would seriously be willing to be part of this, go to the FB page above and "like" it. (It's not my page, BTW.) If I see the page suddenly has a big increase in "likes", I will try to organize a "protest" event for all unhappy HCH owners (which I assume are ALL HCH owners), on FB.
all they say is that it's OUR damn driving habits. that's the only excuse they can think of.
F.U. Honda!!!!!
I wondered why the battery would even need to be rebalanced, surely Honda and their "perfect" IMA system (as I was told by the mechanic at the dealer) would monitor such things.
I look at my trusty service manual, and nope. They only have 24 battery sensors for 132 cells.
So I go ahead and order the power supplies, fuses, and rectifiers (diodes). I pop out the rear seat and hook the negative end of the charger to the negative lug, and the positive to a wire on the BCM (I dont remember exactly which one at the moment). I put a 12v adapter and fan on the vent (to cool off the battery) and calibrated it to 198 volts (1.5 volts/cell).
I needed to make sure the current was a C/10 so that the cell would recombine all of the excess gas from 'overcharging' (this is in the design of NiMH cells). so a 5.5AH pack needs a 550ma charger. I used the Meanwell RS25-48 PSUs and wired them in series with an LPC 35-700 adjustable supply along with the fuses and diodes.
I charge up the car for 24 hours (2x capacity so that any cells that are way off can catch up) and start the car. After a few hours of it recalibrating, etc. There are little to no recalibrations AND mileage is back up to 45+mpg (from 36mpg). This is AFTER the software patch. I have a solar panel that I plan on hooking up to the charger to use while I'm parked.
So far so good. NOTE: Do NOT turn on the car with the charger activated. It WILL throw a code and can possibly confuse the BCM and it will take longer for your car to recalibrate to the battery.
This is purely informational. If you decide to do anything described here, you do so at YOUR OWN RISK. Please take proper precautions when working with the battery and power supply, as they are HIGH VOLTAGE and produce enough current to KILL.
Ecomodder forum:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/diy-solutions-honda-hybrid-battery-pro- blems-insight-civic-13610.html
Grid charger schematic:
http://99mpg.com/Data/resources/downloads/gridchargerstuff/grid_charger_balancer- _2.pdf
What happened is that the update you had coincided with the battery failing. We see a LOT of insights (three per week) and most get 120,000 - 180,000 miles on their initial batteries. One group of drivers does not. That is the drivers that either drive very little (less than 5,000 miles per year) or drive infrequently (don't drive daily). There is also the odd case of the driver that lives at the top of a large hill. Any one of these will result in premature failure. Last year I had a customer that lived in manhattan and drove his car only on weekends. He had 5 batteries in 10 years in 35,000 miles. He came to us because his warranty was up, we balanced his battery and installed a charger. Now he plugs in the car on Friday night and I don't expect he'll ever have another problem.
If these driving patterns match yours, you need a charger as well. There are a few of them being sold by different people. Call me so that we can figure out what can be done to get your battery functional again. I believe it can be saved.
BTW, I've never known an Insight that didn't run out of battery long before finishing a 15-20 mile uphill grade - or did you mean 15-20 degree grade?
If you are experiencing a loss of power immediately after starting the car in the morning, it is a recal (recalibration event) from sitting. Revving the engine is actually the correct procedure, but since the engine is cold, I'd recommend just letting it sit and idle instead. The battery power will return in 45-75 seconds.
With a little TLC, you'll be back to 70 mpg. Honda won't help you because your car is 11 years old.
Now, a few notes for you because you seem technically inclined.
The battery is 6.5 Ah at 0.2C (the standard way of measuring)
1.6V is the terminal charge voltage for healthy cells (actually 1.65V, but that's risky)
C/20 is more acceptable for a fanless setup, so if you plan to do this again, go with 350Ma. With the electronics built into that fan, I assume you tapped in above the PWM module, but what speed do you have it running at?
Also, please limit the charge to 8-12 hours, because your battery isn't starting out empty.
Lastly, your battery will benefit most from several charge/discharge cycles, not just one.
Also, be aware that 2003-2005 Civics have 120 cells and 2006+ have 132 cells.
You spoke about a customer living in Manhattan who drove his Insight infrequently and needed to replace the battery often.
My situation is similar. I live in the downtown core of my city and I drive my 2006 HCH infrequently. My battery started deteriorating at about 40,000 miles. I'm now at roughly 50,000 and mileage is definitely down.
Is there any way of installing a charger to fix this problem?
Yes, you can install a charger and charge it prior to each use if it has been left unused for more than a few days. I don't know if your battery is recoverable, but it will at least arrest the deterioration. The gentleman I was talking about had less than 3,000 miles on the battery, so it had faster sudden damage while yours is a slower, more gradual thing.
Still, without a charger, your only choices are to drive the car more, replace the battery every few years or get rid of the car.
If you are unable to build one, contact me via email and I'll put you in touch with someone that can.
I had done several cycles on it... the first one was the 24 hour cycle and just a few 8-12 hour overnight cycles after that.
I have an '09, and the charger was delivering ~210 volts.
After a few weeks of driving, IMA light went on and then went off.
I took all my charging stuff out of the battery compartment, and brought it in.
There was a battery degradation code and an internal short code. They ordered and installed a new battery for me and the new pack performs spectacularly. MPG has increased from 45 to 53!
No 'recals' every morning and I've had the new pack for more than a week.
Also, the dealer told me the new battery was 'improved' over the old one but that's all he knew. Does anyone know what changes and improvements were made to the pack?
My guess is they went with a different NiMH cell that can withstand higher temps and doesn't get imbalanced as easily.
My best guess on "improved" is that they have finally run out of their stockpile of Sanyo cells and have switched suppliers. Panasonic/Sanyo sold off their NiMH division a couple years ago. I've known about the changed chemistry for a while, but yours is the first I've run across.
It can't just die. I think something else happened and you are attributing it to the battery because you know there is something wrong with it.
Even with a total instantaneous failure of the entire IMA electronics system, the gas engine would not shut down like that.
A sudden failure would point to some kind of hiccup in the ignition system such as the ECM activating the immobilizer circuit.
Definitely a problem, but not caused by the battery.
. No warning lights yet but I don't think I'm far from that. I called the Honda dealer who is 75 miles from me and ask if I could bring the car in to have the IMA battery checked I just wanted to know its condition. They said sure bring it in and we can test it and let you know its status. I got there and I told the guy that I did not want any software updates done to the car.he said ok no problem and I signed a paper stating no software updates. The guy excuses him self to go and talk to the tech who will be doing the work and comes back in a few minutes and tells me that the battery cannot even be checked without the software updates being done. Well I'm p.oed about this but I keep my cool and explain why I don't want the updates. The guy then calls someone named Chris who is the guy that the service managers go to with questions in this area. After their conversation the assistant service manager tells me that this is policy and there is no getting around it. I let this guy know that I have made a 150 mile trip that wasted not only my gas but also my time. All I got from him was an I'm sorry.
Well that is the background on my encounter with Honda service. I've pretty much washed my hands of them. As far as Im concerned even though they say on paper they warranty their batteries the reality is they don't or at best only on special occasions.
I make my living with electronics and the idea that keeps coming to me is why don't I rebuild the battery pack myself. The beauty of this is that the connectivity to provide for grid charging and balancing of the pack can be built in during the rebuild. There are a few web sites that talk about the Insight battery but virtually none on the HCH II. A guy on one of the insight forums talked about doing a step by step on his HCH II battery but so far has not. These guys http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/ will rebuild a gen 1 HCH but they don't mention the gen II. I've Googled for the procedure to remove the battery from the car but came up empty( I know its behind the back seat). Is there a master shut off switch like the Insight has? If I'm going to do this I want to do it safely and correctly. At this point it may be best to buy a service manual for the car. Has any Electronically savvy owner attempted this and been successful? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Thanks,
luckyflyer
I believe that the update will probably improve your battery (won't make it worse unless it's already terminal, will improve some, won't affect others), but there is a fairly large chance that you won't like the behavioral changes to the car. If you are the type of driver who's battery is always full, then you will likely see no difference, but if you use your battery down to almost nothing regularly, then you will NOT like what it does to your car.
You do realize, don't you, that I am the guy at the website you mentioned? Gen-II Civics and Accords are serviced, but aren't listed because most of them are still under warranty so their owners go to the dealer. Instructions are available (and free), but they're not posted on the web, so Google can't find them. Just call or email for them.
Contact me to discuss changes you need to make to the Gen-I test procedures to get them to work on your Gen-II.
The battery checked out fine, with "75% life remaining". They mistakenly gave it the most recent updates, so I didn't have to pay for that $100 (shouldn't have to pay for something that "corrects" the original). I live in the North Texas region, so the temp has been a factor ie worse than during the cool months. Though it's only been 2 weeks to see how the car behaves, and expecting nothing, I'm impressed enough that I no longer plan on selling it. Go figure! I have 6 more years for my needs as someone who puts on about 125 - 150 miles every day, 5 days a week. Wish me luck, as I do everyone else having trouble.
I see nothing in the operation of an HCHII which allows me to control the battery charge level. They way I understand it, this is a function of the IMA control system. Please enlighten us.
Considering the IMA light, you will need to see how fast the battery discharges during hard acceleration, and how long it takes to recharge. On my car at 167k miles on the odometer, a 'to the floorboard' acceleration will take the battery to slightly less than half charge within a mile, then will induce a slight charge at cruising speed for about 5 minutes ( 3/4 battery capacity is when the induced charge goes to neutral). I am unfamiliar with the available gauges on a 2003.
A/C running and most miles I am running at interstate speed I get about 37 mpg on new Bosch plugs. Not good as compared to what it was new, but there is plenty of sensors, etc that I probably need to replace or get calibrated.
I have HCH 2003 with 109K miles. IMA light came on yesterday. Do I need to take it to the dealer right away? What are my options?
Would appreciate any suggestions.
I'll be signing off the forum. I have followed for over a year now. I am happy to be rid of the car that caused me and my family so much stress. What a disappointment. I hope you all find a solution.
The issues with my IMA have been getting progressively worse over the past 2 years, and I'm far from running out on the battery warranty. However, I'm shocked that the battery has not coded out already, based on what I'm seeing. Is it possible Honda's latest firmware update throws out the metrics for a bad battery that would cause the IMA light to come on? Is there anyone who has seen an IMA light on the latest firmware?
just a joke about these honda reps and their engineers saying that this is normal. i guess that if it happens often enough, it is considered normal. :lemon:
It actually takes more than 6 minutes at full assist to drain a battery, and 12 minutes to charge one.
You're just seeing the gauge go up and down.
The reason it happens every morning is that some of the cells are rapidly discharging overnight and the car detects that they have dropped, so it tests the battery to determine the actual capacity. Your battery is having trouble, but some of the software updates MAY exercise the battery in such a way that it actually improves. It will either improve (happen less often) or get worse (more often) and fail. Without the updates it will definitely fail.
Drivers who accelerate more and "keep up with traffic" tend to use more assist and therefore have less-full batteries.
Since the software changes primarily affect only the behavior of the car when it is below 1/4 charge, the first category of driver will not see any difference, while the latter group will potentially find themselves without any assist available (car underpowered).
First, 34 psi is the minimum to have in your tires and 44 is better.
Try this test: adjust your tire pressure and find a nice stretch of road to drive 50 mph. Pretend that there is a raw egg taped to your gas pedal and you don't want to crack it. Drive 50 mph for 5-10 miles without accelerating or decelerating much. Open your windows and turn off the AC.
You should get at least 50 mpg in a CVT or 55 in a manual transmission car. If you don't, then you need to check other things like alignment, CV joints, catalytic converter, etc.
The system is really robust and your battery is unusual in that you are getting both positive and negative recals. What this means is that under load (discharge) your battery gets worse and the car detects it and then when recharging on the highway at steady speeds it gets better and the car detects it.
A grid charger (trickle charger) might help you immensely, but you are under warranty.
P1433 - drive the car for the next 60-90 days until it dies, then replace the battery
P1447 - same as above, but 3-6 months
P1449 - fix it now before you make it worse
P1570 or P1568 - fix it, its a cheap repair
Anything else may be a non-battery problem and will be easy (and cheap) to fix.
Don't go to a dealer. They are expensive and half of the time they have no clue.
Email me if you want more help
appreciate what you write on the blog and your insights. however, i think i can speak for those of us that these recals in the morning are not solely from over night drains. these recals occur almost every other time the car is started. it can happen every 20 minutes in relatively mild commutes. i have an hour commute every day into work and it often drains 2 and sometimes 3 times just during this one stretch. also, the recals can occur more often if your car is stressed like going uphill (which happened to me multiple times on one 30 mile stretch going up to Tahoe).
so, yes, it's a recal problem with the system. why it occurs 4-5 times in a day (practically every day) is a problem that Honda doesn't admit to.
just imagine you run city errands. i drive the kids to school in the morning (3 miles). it recals. get it back to full, turn off the engine drop off the kids. start the car, drive to the store (<1 mile). stop the car, charge is full. start the car again, within a minute, recals. drive home (<3 miles) and all this time, in regen mode. all this driving is 25mph zones, so light driving. get home, regen is complete. let car sit for a couple of hours and go get lunch...and whoa...guess what. car recals (always within 1.5 minutes). and this starts all over again even though i have not stressed the engine (as per manual that "drain" may happen if engine is stressed). also, you actually don't even need to turn on your engine for it to recal (obviously something it knows to do when you turn the key). so you can lose all your charge just by sitting there without the engine ever being turned on.
so as you noted ogre, you say that my battery is having trouble, i think that's what everyone has been trying to say, maybe not in the proper technical aspect in their descriptions, but ultimately, the problem is the battery. and that is where everyone is coming from. no matter how you or anyone wants to describe the exact problem, there is a problem that Honda does not want to admit to.
and ever since the software update, it's been crap and has worsened the performance and mileage. now you can say that it's with respect to how each of us drive, but it's obviously all relative. i used to get 48 mpg, now i get 42 after the software fix. so power, performance and efficiency has degraded at the expense of trying to "save" the IMA battery.
the HP/torque curve with respect to RPM's shows that the battery "assists" the puny engine, but that performance is no longer valid after the software fix. it has reduced the amount of assistance, so that assist curve is practially sitting on top of that engine curve. and if it's during regen, there is no "electric assist" and is all 1.3liter engine pushing that car up a hill or accelerating onto 70mph freeway from that metering light.
Each time a recal starts, the car thinks it is a normal aging event. Each time the recal ends, the car has determined that the battery is still functional and now has THESE specific parameters and is still within normal tolerances.
The problem is that your battery keeps changing (or appearring to) and it keeps triggering this event. From your description, it sounds like your battery is dipping under load (starting the car), and then recovering quite a bit when you stop it even for a few minutes. This is unusual and does not match the behavior of most failing batteries that we see (and we see MANY batteries). Most will trigger a recal if they sit, or if they are put under a heavy load (freeway merge).
Some will trigger it on a heavy charge (exiting the highway with lots of regen if the battery is very full).
I don't know if your battery will actually fail. I hope for your sake that it does so you get a new one.
Have you tried a few hours of AC off to see if it affects the recal behavior?
I do feel that the software update is good for your car despite the negative mpg impact. Remember that 2009-2012 Civics have run this software since day one. The update just updates the 2006-2008 cars to match the 2009+ cars.
So to sum up, I'm agreeing with you, but I'm explaining what is really going on, and not what appears to be going on.
I forsee that when these cars reach 15+ years, they will need either a BMS or a plug-in charging regimen. Meanwhile, you've got a warranty. I was one of the unlucky ones without a warranty due to an airbag deployment.
bummer about your warranty.
i live in bay area cali. so i almost never have the AC on. if i do, it obviously stresses the engine more so i don't bother as it's nice and cool usually.
as for the warranty, i'm at 110k and warranty is good til 150k. so i don't think i'll be "lucky" enough to have it die as i got the suckware fix at 85k and things don't look dire outside of the annoyance with the car/battery. i did go to arbitration with BBB and Honda, but unfortunately, BBB didn't have a clue what i was trying to present. they took Honda's word for it that "this recal is normal operation" and that's it. didn't even test drive my car to feel how impotent the car was even going up an underground garage ramp.
easy OGRE
You might want to consider a grid charger (trickle charger). Just don't tell the dealership about it. Used weekly or so it might get your battery behaving better.
Thanks for the information. I've considered the grid charger, and would be all for it if it didn't void the warranty. In lieue of that, I plan on driving it for another 10-20K and selling it if the battery has not failed. However, if the battery meter keeps bouncing up and down like a beach ball, I may trade it in sooner.