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But that does cost a little more, and unfortunately Subaru chose to use paint only this time around.
Once my trim gets fixed I'll research an autoshop repainting all the interior door rests and transmission center plate with a clear coat protective film.
I still prefer plain ol' unpainted plastic.
Apparently not, as in snow driving the rear end fishtails during turns!!!
As a test, after lifting the rear only (car in neutral and no hand brake), I can freely spin the back wheels, while the front wheels remain still.
Needless to say I will schedule a visit to the dealership repair shop ASAP!
My points/questions are:
a) Others may be in the same situation, so be forewarned.
b) Is there a better/easier way to check if this specific AWD system is working or not?
c) Feel free to shime any ideas, comments, questions.
Thanks.
Froggy
I'll be looking for your update!
Mine does the same thing. It is my first AWD, so I had thought I was told it is suppose to do that, fish tail on turns, especially under any slight amount of acceleration.
On ice, if I gun the throttle, it _will_ throw its rear end out or spin.
Foresters are supposedly FWD biased, but this one clearly isn't.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29493414/
Bill
Bob
But it does bring up the question of the torque split. My Outback 3.0R with 45%/55% F/R initial torque split will fishtail with careless throttle application. I wonder whether the 80% front 20% rear split of earlier 4 cylinder auto trans models has been changed?
It was very enjoyable - I loved tossing those cars about.
The Forester does not have a Variable Torque Distribution (VTD) centre differential. For the 2009 model year, the Forester 2.5XT includes a Multi-plate Transfer (MPT) System that adjusts torque from 60/40 (F/R) to 50/50 (or anywhere in-between) depending on throttle input, road conditions and input from the Vehicle Dynamics Control (VDC) System. VDC operates like most electronic stability control (ESC) systems in that it can adjust engine output, adjust individual brake pressure and even front rear torque distribution to retain/regain vehicle stability.
It is not possible for the system defeat the role of the centre differential and thus torque output will always be split between the front and rear differential. Meaning, the system cannot direct 100% of power to a single wheel - whether it be with VTD or MPT.
Note this differs from older Foresters' usual 90 -10 split between Front to Rear.
However, what happens when both front wheels slip, and the Traction control system brakes the front wheels to help transfer power to the rear wheels?
AWD and limited slips only manage torque distribution based on traction, but not the amount of traction. If there is no traction or if you overpower the traction available the wheels spin. And if the car is pointed into a turn and this happens in the rear it will fishtail because of the force vector. You will notice that it always fishtails to the outside of the curve never the inside. It is the whip effect caused by the car being pulled through a curve and then the rear not having any or not enough traction.
In the old days we used to play with this on our muscle cars with limited slip. One of us would get the rear wheels spinning and then another of us would gently push the rear of the car in one side direction or the other. It is amazing how easy it is to almost rotate a car around a circumference with the front of the car stationary and the center of the circle. We could even do this on bare tar, no rain or snow needed. You can't do this with a vehicle with no limited slip because with 1 tire overpowering the traction you still have 1 tire with traction but no torque so the vehicle is anchored by that wheel.
Any amount of torque applied to the end with poor traction will cause this. I am sure some have experienced a FWD car with no traction, and while the front tires are spinning the front "walks to one side or the other depending on the torque application design of the powertrain. No traction is no traction so other forces take over.
Even if the rear of the Forester is only getting 10% or 20% of the torque it is still the much lighter end. The front has a lot more weight over it and therefore more traction available, even with the bulk of the power. I have mentioned this before but the solution is easy. You need more weight over the rear axle so that end gets more traction. I discovered this by accident when I happened to go buy some big bags of bird seed, but sand, cat litter, or anything that can be put against the seatback over the rear wheels tremendously lessens this effect. The rear wheels have torque they just need traction.
As another comparison my previous Passat W8 4-motion (quatro) did not fishtail even with max throttle. However it often ploughed instead. I prefer my 3.0R's behavior, but Consumer Reports calls Subaru VDC response "reluctant".
1. Seems worse in front of car near dashboard.
2. Nothing leaking (not radiator fluid)
3. Took apart dash and heater core hoping to find a dead mouse or something. Nada, no dead animal.
4. Smell gets better and goes away when heater/fan is turned ON. just in case, had dealership spray that anti-bacterial stuff they have for mold in vents. Didn't help, still smells.
5. Smell gets better/goes away when temp is below freezing and gets worse when
above freezing. Obvious that something is freezing and then thawing.
6. I have kids and removed their carseats. Still have the smell. No obvious places where I can see split milk or anything like that. Nothing under seats, in obvious spots. I can't find anyplace where the smell is obviously worse in one place vs. another other than seems worse in the front of the car.
7. Just in case for #6, I used lysol EVERWHERE 2 weeks ago. Still have the smell.
8. No smell from under the hood or under the vehicle, just inside.
At this point in time I am getting ready to dump this car and not buy another Subaru. I love the Forester, but can't subject myself and my kids to this. I have had 20cars in my life and never had this problem. Any ideas before I bail?
IF so, you may have the problematic HVAC gasket problem referred to earlier in this thread, and covered by a Subaru TSB.
That sums it up pretty well.
Try this...
First off, be careful, make sure you have a gigantic and empty parking lot with tons of space, wear a helment, bla bla bla disclaimers.
OK, take a turn in a snowy parking lot and stay on the gas.
When the rear end begins to fish tail, and this is the important part...*stay on the gas*.
Don't add throttle, but don't let off the throttle either.
Let AWD do its job. It should slowly shift power to the front axle when the rear axle slips, and the FWD bias should pull you out of the skid. This is also the best way to ensure that your AWD system is functioning properly.
If you lift off the throttle, the weight shifts forward, that means the rear axle has zero weight on it, and the fishtailing only gets worse.
The stability control can't do anything if the rear axle has no weight on it and therefore no traction.
I know it sounds counter-intuitive, you begin to fish tail and you stay on the gas? Yep.
There's even a word for this: drop-throttle oversteer.
Practice in that safe environment and learn how the vehicle reacts.
If you get good at it, this is the most fun you will ever have in a Subaru.
Let the AWD do it's job.
"fishtail." Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. 2009.
fish·tail (fis̸h′tāl′)
intransitive verb
1 : to swing the tail of an airplane from side to side to reduce speed especially when landing
2 : to have the rear end slide from side to side out of control while moving forward
Yeah, I'm picky. I just hate to see the language misused. :shades:
I definitely don't accelerate on the corners on the mountain roads though, unless I need it for grip, that is another story.
Also, in my experience with front wheel drive vehicles (all I've driven until now), I can gain more control with a little acceleration if the car starts to slip (and turning into it). At this point, I don't think this AWD vehicle will be able to do that. I'm not sure if it might fishtail more??? But, I'm heading up to the mountains with a different 09 Forester this weekend, with 10 - 22" of snow predicted, So, I might get a chance to see how a different car behaves. That will be the real test for me. Hope the trip doesn't get canceled
Now, I know not all FWD vehicles would behave like the old Subie, it was just Fantastic!!! And perfect for me!
And definitely counter-intuitive. But makes sense the way you explain it. I will try it!!!
You just have to get used to how the AWD handles.
Once you are used to it, you will realize the amazing capability, and fun, driving in snow.
Love this car!
Bill
I have also had unfortunate luck with the windshield cracking twice. Both times a small stone hit it. I have had many cars during the past 20 years and have never had a windshield crack. Have the windshield materials been economized along with the interior materials?
More likely is weight -reduced, ie thickness. Another reason for cracking is stress: the windshield can also be a structural element. The new Forester could have such a combination of factors.
But what do I know? My windshield manufacturing patent (Ford Glass) was granted over 50 years ago.
I got my first tiny crack on my 1993 Miata, small rock hit it.
I don't think it's any worse than the average windshield...it may be more upright but it's also higher up. Unlike my Miata....
http://www.princegeorgecitizen.com/20090307180023/local/news/parking-goes-awry-a- - - t-mall.html
Nothing can stop a Forester; it can drive over anything!!!
Haha.
No wonder it aced side crash tests even before it had side curtain air bags.
Surprising how all three vehicles seem to have held up pretty well from the accident (though we don't see the fronts of the others..).
Also, if some smelly residue gets on the cabin air filter, it will stink up the cabin every time the HVAC is used. The filter is easy to replace, though.
Also check all the hoses and fuel lines to make sure all the clamps are tight.
Some forums have reported minor coolant or fuel leakage can lead to major odors in the passenger compartment.
CU explains their reasoning for the change;
"Although the criteria for selecting a Top Pick is fairly simple on the surface – the car ranks at or near the top of the Ratings, average or better reliability, easily available electronic stability control (ESC) – there are some nuances.
One interesting choice involves our 2009 Pick for Small SUV.
When we tested the redesigned 2009 Subaru Forester, it did very well. The turbocharged 2.5XT even outscored the RAV4 V6 and the basic Forester 2.5X outscored the four-cylinder RAV4 at the time. We also tested a group of several manual transmission vehicles including a Forester with a stick; it’s one of the very few small SUVs that offers one. It also scored well.
...
So, why isn’t the Forester our Top Pick for small SUVs? Two reasons:
The RAV4 got a new 2.5-liter, four-cylinder engine for 2009. When we retested the RAV4 for the upcoming May issue, we found that it was improved. It just barely outscored the equivalent four-cylinder, automatic-transmission Forester.
While the turbocharged and manual-transmission Foresters each outscore the RAV4, those versions sell in comparatively low numbers. The vast majority of Foresters and RAV4s sold are basic, non-turbo, four-cylinder, automatic-transmission versions.
It boiled down to this: we wanted the Top Pick to apply to the biggest number of buyers out there. In the end, the 2009 RAV4 four-cylinder narrowly out pointed the Subaru equivalent, becoming our Top Pick."
In other words, Top Pick factors how many people are likely to buy a given vehicle, as well as the absolute value of the vehicle.
Ow, my head hurts. :sick:
In other words, Top Pick considers how many people are likely to buy a given vehicle
Well that kinda makes sense but by denying the Forester the honor of being a "Top Pick" even though it won thier own comparison tests, they are discouraging (and confusing) potential Forester buyers and at least indirectly contributing to the fact that MTs and turbos are sold in low numbers
-Frank
fredbeansparts.com has more details and some prices.
However, the other day it was a little snowy & a lot icy here. I found with this other 09 Forester that the tail end did not slide out at all on pretty much pure ice while cornering.
So, for the experts out there, Here's my question:
I was driving the same as I normally would, only difference that I know of is my car is MT premium model and this car is AT base model but with Alloy wheels and Bridgestone Dueler H/T tires. Why would my car kick to the outside corner in snow when this forester didn't do anything on ice???
Are those Geolanders that came with my car making that much difference?
Is anyone familiar with these Bridgestone tires? Are the base model tires suppose to be better than the premium tires?
Still learning about the AWD, so Thanks! for your help! (in advance)
Although, perhaps it isn't me & the AWD, perhaps it is just the tires???
The A/T is 90/10 F/R, so the brunt of the torque goes to the front wheels initially, while the rears get very little. If the fronts slip, then more torque is transferred to the back.
I doubt it's the tires, as the Geolanders are decent in the snow.
90/10 is what you get in an AWD like a RAV-4 or others that claim false AWD
People have to remember that Front wheel drive pulls the car and rear wheel drive pushes the car. The dynamics are different. Many folks aren't old enough anymore to remember that we all (most of us) drove rear wheel drive cars in the 60's and far into the 70's before the standard was front wheel drive. Folks learned quickly to accelerate slowly when entering a sharp turn at intersections... out of driveways etc. while on slick road surfaces.
Then again, various car reviews claim it can send 100% power to any wheel, as the new traction control system can brake spinning wheels.
So I am not sure what is really going on with this AWD system. But in the last big snowstorm, save for occasional tail lightness during hard acceleration on ice, the XT got around ok and never got stuck.
Since previous models of auto trans Legacy and Outbacks were variously described as having 80/20 or 90/10%, that means the new Forester has either a new 4EAT or new software.
Why the difference?