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Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester

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    fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    Re: Timex. Back in the 70s when I was around 10 or 12 I had a Timex. Well, one day our cat decided to give it a bath so it literally took a licking and yes, it kept on ticking.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They were out in soft sand (note the pics).

    It's all about floatation, airing down, smooth inputs, and don't stop on soft sand else you'll sink.

    Weight was a handicap.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Prior to my BlackBerry, mine was obvious:

    image
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    authurdentauthurdent Member Posts: 82
    Wow, now that's predetermination. You had no choice BUT to by a Forester!

    In fact, your zeal was so great, you completely blew out the Reply link (at least on my Mac/Firefox).
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    comem47comem47 Member Posts: 399
    edited March 2010
    I blew out the page formatting in another forum a few weeks back. I asked the admin of that forum to remove the picture link I included, but he never has. (picture too wide for the web page)
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sorry. It got a little excited that they're still sold. :D

    I had a green one way back when...
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2010
    Here's one for gadget lovers who buy loaded Outlanders (fushigi I mean you):

    image

    That's got a phone built-in, plus it looks like some apps. A bit on the bulky side, though.
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    tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    LoL! You beat me to it. I was just doing the same search. Fair and balanced, you know. :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    This is for you. I'm surprised you don't already have one.
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    fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    I've seen those but am totally uninterested in them. They remind me of the red LED watches from the 70s.

    The watch I linked to actually has more gizmos than I want this time around. But it has a backlight which I find useful and I like the Eco Drive. I also don't have good luck with leather bands lasting and have a couple of watches with gold bands already so the metal is appealing. Just saw it the other day at our jeweler and liked it.

    I only buy watches with an analog face. A digital inset is OK, but I prefer analog where possible. I work on computers all day long so I like the change they offer. ANd on the analog face it must have hash marks for each hour (eliminating brands like Movado).

    My current nicest watch (I have 5 ..) does some neat power conservation tricks. For instance, since it's an Eco Drive it's solar. So it knows when it's light or dark. When dark, it stops moving the second hand to save power. When exposed to light the second hand rushes around to wherever it needs to be.

    And yes, none of this has anything to do with either the Outlander or the Forester. I guess we should get back to the topic at hand.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited March 2010
    You're only feeding my crackberry addiction! :D

    Back to cars, hmm, Bluetooth works well with my Garmin but with the top down forget it, a headset is the only way to go.
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    piastpiast Member Posts: 269
    edited March 2010
    Look, it is possible! Every day on my morning commute I'm passing a house with gray Mitsubishi Outlander and black Subaru WRX in the driveway. Maybe, just maybe, all of us can be friends and fight RAV4 together for a change...
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    comem47comem47 Member Posts: 399
    "Maybe, just maybe, all of us can be friends and fight RAV4 together for a change"

    OK, I'll be first. That swing door sucks!!! :P
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Dude, it's backwards! It blocks curb side loading. How dumb is that?

    :D
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    authurdentauthurdent Member Posts: 82
    edited March 2010
    I just can't stand looking at them!

    Sure, the swing door, but what about the rear mounted spare obstructing the rear view? And the body lines are neither roundish like the SanteFe/Rougue, or angular like the Outlander/Forester. Sort of a noncommittal melange of boredom.

    And like other Toyotas I've had the opportunity to drive or passenger, I imagine the ride has all the excitement of sitting at the dentist office, listening to cut-rate muzak, waiting for the hygienist to pick my teeth with that horrible pointy thing.

    Then there's the fact that we are COMPLETELY surrounded. Within a half block radius of the house, 6 neighbors have RAV4s. No other model or make enjoys this level of market saturation within eyesight of our front porch.

    Borders on pathological! :confuse:
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The spare on the rear is full-sized, though, rare nowadays. It does block the view aft.

    Last year they added the option of a donut under the cargo floor, which removed the rear tire from the door. So at least they fixed that.

    I saw a concept for the euro (short wheelbase) RAV4 replacement, but I think they kept the swing gate. :sick:
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    p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Then there's the fact that we are COMPLETELY surrounded. Within a half block radius of the house, 6 neighbors have RAV4s. No other model or make enjoys this level of market saturation within eyesight of our front porch.

    That's pretty much the way it is here except with Foresters. Every other place I've lived, mine is normally the only Forester around but here, there are at least a dozen Foresters in the neighborhood. There are even a couple of houses with two Foresters in the driveway :surprise:
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    DON__FLORIDADON__FLORIDA Member Posts: 14
    You are all making me feel bad. We just bought a 2010 RAV4. My wife wanted one for a long time. She likes the tire on back I did not but it is growing on me. The ride is comfortable and so far after 1,000 miles we have no complaints. It got a good rating in CR, Ours was not part of the recall. The VIN # starts with J so it was made in Japan. It appears this is true after I did some research. My old VW Passet is ready to go soon and I am really interested in the Forester. As I posted before the complaints about rattles concern me, I am going to continue to monitor the reviews to see if Subaru corrects this issue.
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    comem47comem47 Member Posts: 399
    From what I can see if one get's rear ended at lower speed, instead of it being bumper to bumper it might be front grill of other car hitting the tire and taking out the rear window too. So much for 5 mph bumpers. :cry:
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    comem47comem47 Member Posts: 399
    To back up my speculation:

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1982240/hondas_restyled_crv_and_toyotas- _rav4.html
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Don: the comments were tongue-in-cheek, no worries.

    I liked its powertrain enough that I ended up buying a Sienna. :shades:
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    authurdentauthurdent Member Posts: 82
    edited April 2010
    Went to the Mitsu/Sube dealer for the first time since purchase, mainly to ask operational questions. The Mitsu tech had some time, so I asked Mitsu/Outlander vs. Sube/Forester questions. Along with my findings, here's what I learned

    - Forester had a more car-like entry/exit. Although I prefer the easier Outlander SUV entry/exit
    - Forester front seats were good, with slightly easier reach to console stuff, although buttons tended to be smaller
    - Sure, the Forester plastic had more texture, but the console was less aesthetically pleasing
    - Really didn't like the proximity of the hand brake, nearly rubbing up next to the Forester driver seat. Guess this is less noticeable when the brake lever is down
    - Rear seats on the Forester didn't feel so good, and there was less knee space as the Outlander. To be fair, these were cloth seats, but I've sat in Forester leather, and still didn't care for the back seat experience.
    - Forester rear cargo isn't as deep as Outlander (even with recessed 3rd row) and cargo floor really DOES slope down. Without the wonderful Outie liftgate, I could see melons, balls and other round stuff just roll right out.
    - Overall structural of the Forester didn't look or feel as sturdy as the Outlander.

    Now here's the important, less subjective stuff

    - At this same dealership, Subarus come in for significant repairs MUCH more often then Mitsubishis
    - Of course, there are more Sube sales/owners, but Subes come in for more significant repairs, verses the small stuff
    - Sube owners tend to overlook problems, given their fierce loyalty. Probably even more loyal then VW owners!
    - Mitsu service is VERY slow right now, since people with older cars (all makes) are ignoring repairs or going to Jiffy Lube. And newer, warranty-covered Mitsus are NOT breaking down.
    - Sube techs are happy, since they are getting plenty of work.
    - Lancers and Outlanders are indeed the Mitsu stars for maintenance. Galant is not far behind
    - The Forester AWD is not a real 4WD. If you really want 4WD, Outlander is your better bet (and best choice in the Mitsu line), with the choice of LOCK (or the GT variant), where the differentials are truly locked.
    - Even though this mechanic could purchase any car at the dealership, he would not consider a Subaru, due to lack of true 4WD primarily, and maintenance issues secondarily

    While YMMV, I am glad we purchased an Outlander.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The driver's seat has a wide range of height adjustments. I've never even noticed the brake handle, to be honest.

    Consumer Reports had the rear legroom within half an inch of each other. Both rear seats recline so maybe it was the angle of the rear seat? Either way, there is plenty of room, and the same magazine lists the Forester as having 3 full inches more head room (my head rubbed in the middle rear seating position).

    Outlander's cargo area is taller, no doubt, but Forester's is wider and a bit longer.

    I could see melons, balls and other round stuff just roll right out

    There is a lip at the back to prevent that.

    Forester outsells Outlander about 6 to 1, so one would expect to see about 600% as many in for service/repair. Even in its worst year the 2009 Forester turbo was "Average" in CR, and so was the 2008 Outlander FWIW. JD Powers awarded the Forester for Durability, if you look longer-term.

    Fact is both of these have been consistently reliable.

    As for the AWD, no it's not 4WD, it's all-wheel drive, i.e. the axles are not locked together and can turn at different speeds. The GT does not lock the axles together, rather it locks the torque split to a fixed rate.

    Neither of these have lockers. The mechanic who told you that didn't really understand AWD.

    Pretty scary to imagine that's the person servicing your car, come to think of it.

    Any how, congrats on the purchase.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2010
    Subaru up 46% for March, outpacing the market which gained 24%. Best March ever, best first quarter ever (up 38%) for Subaru.

    Forester was up 24% for the month, and sold 8,467 units in March.

    Mitsu had a decent March, up 17.6%, but they are still down 2% for the quarter.

    Putting things in perspective, though, Mitsu sold 5,434 cars and trucks in March. The Forester outsold the brand by itself, by a wide margin.

    They need the Outlander Sport ASAP.
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    authurdentauthurdent Member Posts: 82
    Perhaps I misspoke or misunderstood or both. All the tech said was the Subarus are not 4WD, and he has known owners that have gotten stuck in sand (in particular) thinking their AWD would get them out of trouble. This issue might point more to some Sube owners not knowing how best to run their vehicles.

    The tech just happened to be a BIG fan of 4WD vehicles, and of all the Subes and Mitsus, he liked the Outlander. Of course he also like the H2, if it wasn't such a gas hog, but that vehicle is a whole different beast!

    Numbers on paper can be misleading, as I've found in the past. Where numbers between the Outlander and Forester might not be that far off, the perception at any rate is that the Forester is smaller for passenger and cargo space.

    As for repairs, yes, the numbers are higher for Subes. As acknowledged, there are more owners for sure, but its the TYPES of repairs that are the issue. Subes tend to come in more often for MAJOR issues verses Mitsubishis.

    Aside from numbers, there are many caveats for sure: just one dealership, just one technician, nothing systematic or scientific. But is was somewhat illuminating, actually SITTING in a Forester, and asking pointed comparison questions.

    Who knows, if I EVER need to take our Outlander in for a real service issue, I might actually drive a Forester, and might actually have some meaningful empirical data to draw from. :D
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    authurdentauthurdent Member Posts: 82
    edited April 2010
    Putting things in perspective, though, Mitsu sold 5,434 cars and trucks in March. The Forester outsold the brand by itself, by a wide margin.

    They need the Outlander Sport ASAP.

    And RAV4 or CRV sold more in less than half of the USA than Forester. Is it because they are better vehicles, or just more dealerships, more advertising, more hype, more whatever?

    There is a Toyota dealer next door to the Sube/Mitsu dealer, where the techs are REALLY happy! Aside from recalls, our Mitsu tech said Toyotas and Hondas are sourcing their parts from ever-cheaper suppliers, resulting in more service issues, particularly over the last few years.

    Again, nothing conclusive, but just because a car sells more doesn't always mean its a better vehicle. Mitsubishi's number one problem isn't their cars, but rather, a terrible lack of advertising. Perhaps like Suzuki, Mitsu isn't depending on NA sales, but that shouldn't means they outright ignore NA advertising.

    However, maybe less advertising dollars spent means they can offer a better value.... :)
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2010
    They're not 4WD, they're AWD, but so is the Outlander.

    4WD = locks front and rear axles
    AWD = center differential, allows slip

    4WD is not meant for dry pavement because there would be axle binding and nasty tire scrub noises.

    The professionals at AutoBlog got stuck in sand in an Outlander GT, too. AutoBlog was driving at a site specifically chosen by Mitsubishi for a press event. MMNA should never have let that happen, as this was a planned event with pros behind the wheel. PR disaster.

    Forester is smaller for passenger and cargo space

    Not really. Forester has more passenger space (56/46 front/rear vs. 54/45 per C&D Feb. 2010, pp. 76-77), Outlander has more cargo space. Forester has a wider and longer cargo floor, while Outlander's cargo area is taller and takes overall volume, but to me the amount of floor space is more important (YMMV).

    Also, CR measures total volume for a box as bigger for the Forester, even with a moonroof: 35.5 for the Forester to 33.5 for the Outlander (pp. 234-235 of the CR Winter 2010 buying guide)

    Combine both and Forester has more total interior volume (141.1 cubic feet, vs. 139.4), if you get a model without a moonroof. With the moonroof the Outlander is slightly bigger. All this per EPA.

    It's a wash, basically. No significant differences.

    I drove an Outlander with the 2.4l and CVT, since we wanted the best mileage possible, but I sat in an XLS in the showroom and saw a pre-production GT in November before they went on sale. Maybe I need to go drive a new GT also. :D
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And RAV4 or CRV sold more in less than half of the USA than Forester. Is it because they are better vehicles, or just more dealerships, more advertising, more hype, more whatever?

    Clearly, it's because the CR-V ran the fastest slalom in the C&D comparison from the Feb 2010 issue.

    Just kidding. ;)

    All of the above:

    Honda and Toyota are perceived as being better brands by consumers
    they do have more dealerships
    they do have bigger ad budgets
    they do have more hype

    Subaru is a niche make that has expanded successfully. Remember they only sell AWD, no low-priced FWD pretenders to boost those numbers. I bet they sell as many Foresters as Toyota does RAV4s with AWD. Too bad they don't call them RAV2 and list the sales seperately.

    Mitsubishi is a mainstream make that has lost its way in the US (sales down 80% over the last decade) due perhaps to a lose-lose partnership with Chrysler, and bad marketing. When MMNA takes their shiny new GT to a place where Autoblog gets stuck, you just have to shake your head.
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    authurdentauthurdent Member Posts: 82
    edited April 2010
    Mitsubishi is a mainstream make that has lost its way in the US (sales down 80% over the last decade) due perhaps to a lose-lose partnership with Chrysler, and bad marketing.

    Partnering with Chrysler was a HUGE mistake. No one has ever had luck partnering with Chrysler. The company should have been allowed to die in the 1980's. Only good Chrysler cars over the last MANY years were Mitsubishi builds or engines. But, one cannot solely blame the pariah Chrysler. Mitsu has dabbled with a lot of failed models over the years, just hoping something catches fire. While our old Colt and MIrage where no blazing balls of beauty, there were absolutely dependable cars. The Outlander isn't RED HOT, but has been a very satisfying ride. Go Team!
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm not sure what Mitsu expected to get from Chrysler, maybe economies of scale?

    Seems to me like they just acted like a leach and sucked the life out of Mitsubishi while using their powertrains.

    GM did that to Isuzu and now Suzuki. Zook is positively DYING (down 72% in March!), and they just lost the V6 and hybrid powertrains for the Kizashi.

    Subaru was lucky and escaped from GM ownership, and the Toyota deal seems to be working (SIA builds Camrys and Subaru will provide the FT-86 coupe for Toyota).

    I liked Mitsu best when they were independent and made cool cars like the 3000GT, Eclipse and Galant VR-4 (remember those?). The EVO, to me, seems to be the only car from that lineage.

    Let's see if PSA can pull financing together and partner up. We could see them actually begin to invest in new products again. Bring over some european models with character, which PSA certainly has. The Sport and electrics can come from Japan. At least there would be unique cars in Mitsubishi dealerships.

    Imagine the three diamond logo and an Eclipse badge on this:

    image

    It could easily spin off a Galant sedan as well.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2010
    he has known owners that have gotten stuck in sand

    I chickened out at Great Sand Dunes a few years ago in my Outback.

    On that "road" I think it would have been pretty touch and go in spots with a Hummer H2 with 10 psi in the tires. The ranger said the minimum tow bill was ~$450.

    I was able to back out of a nasty spot (about 1/4th mile) in a FWD rental Kia in northern Baja one trip. We were supposed to be on a hard lake bed shortcut but would up a bit lost. My neck was sore for weeks. :blush:

    Interesting comment about the stick shift lever in the Forester. If it hit my thigh when I got in, that could remind me to take it off before I start out.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Even my '98 Forester (MT5) was great when I went to the Outer Banks, a full week, and we went the following year as well. Later rsholland took his wife's Forester (automatic) out on the dunes.

    With good driving technique you should be fine, just remember to air down the tires.

    Your Outback has, IIRC, 6.8" of ground clearance? Newer Subies are up near 9", that alone helps a lot. That Outback would be OK until you had to climb a slope or stopped moving in really deep, soft sand.

    For us it was funny because my buddy got his Camry stuck in the parking lot. :D

    We don't go to the OBX any more because we own property here in the Mid-Atlantic, but I may be a pass for Deleware beaches because they had a nice area just north of Bethany Beach where you can drive on the sand.

    My buddy just bought a Range Rover Sport and he got a pass, so I may join him. There's nothing like driving right to your private beach spot. :shades:
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Here she is:

    imageSee more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Getting stuck just shows how all of the these systems, no matter what you call them, are not fool-proof. Mitsu's marketing snafoo is good fodder for those who can point out even a fancy-dancy AWD system can get stuck and therefore there may not really be as far ahead as some may claim.
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    fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    Economies of scale and shared manufacturing. Didn't they spin some Neons or some other Chryco stuff out of the Mitsu plant in Illinois? There may have also been some anticipated synergies outside the US that we're not aware of.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
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    authurdentauthurdent Member Posts: 82
    Maybe Lee Iococca was subversively trying to take down Mitsubishi with some lousy synergy, as payback for supplying planes for kamikazes.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Chrysler used them to supply small engines, under license even today. They weren't good at making small cars (anyone miss the Dodge Omni?), so that part made sense, I suppose.

    If the Outlander Sport is a hit, it would make sense to try to move production to Illinois. I'd hate to see all those folks lose their jobs.

    I know a lot of folks want a Made-in-Japan vehicle (both Outlander and Forester are), but from a financial standpoint that is costly, especially with the dollar so weak.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good one. :D

    In the CR-V vs. Forester threads I started a conspiracy theory that it was him (Lee Iaccoca) who put super-glue on those oil filter gaskets in CR-Vs, eventually resulting in double-gaskets and engine fires.

    Remember those cases?

    The new CR-V is a certified hit - best selling SUV period, any size, any class. And they do it with one single engine and body style. No V6, no turbo, no 3rd row. Amazing, if you think about it. Totally streamlined. Just one engine and transmission, so all you do is pick a model.

    Yet it has worked. Incredible. I don't even find them attractive, with that underbite of a grill.

    They just boosted power to a very decent 180hp, at least for a base engine, so I doubt it'll lose its lead any time soon.

    They somehow just hit the sweet spot with consumers.
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    authurdentauthurdent Member Posts: 82
    CR-V.. I used to be enamored with the half-moon glass, juxtaposed against the angular rear pilar, but now I find the look both annoying and trite. And the rear skirt looks like a saggy diaper. I don't mind the front end. But for some odd reason, more than anything else, I don't care for those mealy-sounding Honda starters. They don't sound robust enough to start a Tonka truck! :lemon:
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited April 2010
    The Medano Pass Primitive Road just sounds a bit dicey if you don't have 4WD with low range. One guy made it in his Forester one year and then got stuck the next trip he attempted.

    Maybe if there were two other vehicles going along....

    Kdshapiro, the first thing I learned when I got a CJ-5 back in '74 is that a 4WD vehicle will just get you stuck further from the pavement. ;)
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    tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    a 4WD vehicle will just get you stuck further from the pavement.

    Been there, done that! :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yup, the more capable, the farther you are from civilization when you get stuck! :D
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Good one! Words to live by if you like to offroad.
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    fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    Amazing, isn't it? Maybe Subaru & Mitsu should streamline and offer fewer choices. Maybe that simplification is part of the secret since the CR-V itself isn't anything to write home about. Competent but it just doesn't stand out at all. Honda makes the purchase process simpler (by offering less choice) and people who hate car buying flock to their doors.

    Styling-wise, the CR-V just looks feminine to me. Maybe it's the curve of the glass by the D pillar; I don't know. I just know that I want a look of sportiness and/or ruggedness from an SUV/CUV and on that point the CR-V is a massive FAIL.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
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    fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    I'm never buying another car without one.

    That's what I told my wife after leaving Menards the other day. Backing in to the loading area for the season's first round of mulch and whatnot was a breeze. Even though visibility in the Outlander isn't bad, the camera view lets you actually drive in reverse v. inching along, trying to line up to parking space lines, and using the braille method (when you hit something, stop). The overlay lines guide you just where you need to be and tell at a glance how far away you are so you can make a perfect back-in every time.

    This morning I decided to back in to the parking space at work. There were no other cars in the lot (I'm always the first one in) so I backed in using the camera as my only guidance. Despite flubbing the initial angling I still got in the spot perfectly on the first try since the camera enabled me to make larger direction changes than I would have sans the close view of the parking lines.

    I've yet to parallel park the Outie but I know the cam will definitely help there as well.

    BTW I've the carpeted mat in the cargo area but I think I'll spring for the WeatherTech liner. The lawn & garden stuff at the home improvement joints can be messy and I'd rather use the liner which I can just hose off & wipe down to clean. It helps that the liners are US-made and the company is located about halfway along my commute.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think a 200hp or so DI 4 banger would serve as a good single engine for just about anything in this class, and it could be fuel efficient as well.

    the CR-V just looks feminine to me

    Keep something in mind - most consumers in the sport/cute segment are female. The GT and XT may be exceptions, even then I'm not so sure.

    I remember Honda saying the target demographic was the "toddler mom", i.e. mothers with little kids. So they designed a lot of features to be convenient for them.

    It worked. The early CR-Vs had that macho full-size spare tire on the rear door, but that was cumbersome and got in the way of loading diaper bags in the cargo area. So they went with a donut spare under the floor.

    Let's face it, that toddler mom is going to call AAA to change the tire anyway, why should she care?

    Plus there is space for her purse between the front seats. They care more about stuff like that.

    This year Honda added the 180hp engine and soft-touch rubberized door handles that are manicure-friendly.

    You can't make this stuff up. :D
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cargo liners are crucial. Keeps the whole area looking like new.

    Used to be standard, on my 98 Forester, and the LL Bean models had that up until 2008, but now they're an OE accessory.

    Ours has it and else I'd be asking you about a group buy at Weather Tech.
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    authurdentauthurdent Member Posts: 82
    Group buy indeed! I'd like all-weather mats as well.

    Back up camera would have been nice. Its not super easy to gauge the whitelines, and while I have little idea what's going on back there, parallel parking hasn't been terrible. I'm so glad we have big wheels and no hubcaps. Curbs used to beat up our Mirage wheels and plastic caps. Another thing I noticed in my recent Forester sit-down, was that the side-view mirrors were smaller. I do REALLY value the big Outie side-views.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Keep in mind you are surrounded by acres of glass. The windows are gigantic and blind spots are few and far between. Visibility in the Forester is best-in-class.

    I want a backup cam .... for my Sienna.

    The Forester doesn't need one. They invited press to compare the Forester with the CR-V, Rogue, and RAV4, and actually demonstrated rear visibility when backing up as a competitive advantage.

    I do think it would be useful, say, to line up a hitch and a receiver.

    I'm sure they'll soon package it with OEM Navi (it is sold as a JDM accessory from a catalog) but IMHO those are overpriced. You get dated technology and old maps for a high price, no thanks.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited April 2010
    Even has a part number (but you need Navi):

    image

    Link since embedded image may not work for everyone:

    http://www.carspace.com/ateixeira/Albums/misc/Backup%20Cam.jpg/page/photo.html#p- - ic
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