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Afraid Camry Owner - Toyota found to keep tight lid on potential safety
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Also, from first hand experience, I can tell all of you that I'm shocked at the extent of the cheapening taking place inside of Toyota vehicles, from misaligned trim, to absolutely horrid textures and quality of materials being used; this ranges from the Corolla to the Avalon, and everywhere in between.
Toyoda, the grandson of the founder of the company, recently gave a speech of remorse about these issues, yet the crappy materials, squeaks and rattles, peeling trim pieces, and now, safety issues, continue to worsen.
Akio Toyoda says "Toyota is grasping for salvation" in recent speech:ARTICLE
mikemartin,
And things will stay this way and worsen even more as long as Toyota keeps building their cheaply made vehicles here in the USA and Canada.
Build all Toyotas 100% in Japan with 100% Japanese built parts and the problem is solved.
It's easy as that.
Pretty much the same story for my wife and I. We purchased a new Camry SE on Jan 8 primarily for her to drive to work. Now she is afraid to drive the car!!!
It's easy as that.
I don't see that ever happening. We are now living in a global economy with parts being sourced from all over the world.
70-80% of braking HP is expended on the front wheels/tires, matter of physics, that. Just look at the beefiness, robustness of the front brake system vs the rear if you need verification.
These are primarily, if not altogether, FWD or F/awd vehicles....The engine is DIRECTLY driving the very wheels most needed for braking HP. With a RWD you could LOCK (absent ABS) the front wheels with braking HP while the rears might remain spinning due to run-away engine. BIG difference in braking dynamics.
Say you going at hwy speeds, 65MPH, and decide you need to slow down, not quickly, just slow down..?? How long, for what period, would you moderately apply the brakes before you realized they were not having the "proper" effect...??
So now you have just begun the run-a-way engine sequence with the brake pads/rotor "pre-heated". But now you come to the realization that something serious has gone wrong...
With the engine at WOT there is NO manifold vacuum for replenishing the brake vacuum motor. How many times do you think the average driver would release and reapply, thinking pump up the master cylinder, the brakes in this case and end up with NO brake assist...?
"..otherwise the story is vey hard to comprehend.."
Not for someone involved in managing a software development team for more than 40 years. You cannot imagine how much time and effort is spent finding field reported software bugs once product is shipping. Factory lab testing of software, no matter how comprehensive, will NEVER equal field, actual customer use/testing.
Look at the screw up Lexus did with the new transaxle design for the early production RX300. It appears that NO ONE thought about, considered certain aspects of actual driver use, utilization of the transaxle. So the Camry's A140E was redesigned, made much more robust, seriously so, for use in the 1999 RX300 with F/awd.
The primary reason for the "abolition" (Toyota's term) of key components of the old design, components in use for tens of years, was to provide room for a more robust design. But a side benefit was a serious improvement level in FE. So now Toyota was trapped, they could not go back to the old design absent sacrificing that FE improvement.
They could have, of course, followed Ford's lead(***), but that isn't the Japanese, HEADS DOWN, cultural approach
So Toyota and Lexus are still, TODAY, struggling with the unforeseen results of the design flaw inadvertently incorporated into these transaxles, adopted across the fleet by 2002.
*** Ford adopted a variable displacement ATF pump to solve the inherent flaw in the new design and still get improved FE. ATF pumping volume can be maximized at idle but then incrementally minimized as engine RPM rises.
Good question.
In late 1991, November, I bought a new 1992 LS400. Within weeks I had discovered that the LS had a terrible propensity for quickly fogging up the front windshield interior surface. I worked with Bellevue Lexus and Lexus factory representatives throughout the following months, into the spring of '92, to resolve this problem but with NO success.
In the summer I decided for safety reasons to park the LS400 until/unless the issue could be resolved. I also filed a lemon law case to return the LS400.
Lexus did several things over the following year but the most important of those was flying an engineer in from Japan to check my HVAC control module for proper operation, including the correct firmware version.
He arrived with what was clearly a make-shift, one-off, unpainted, no labelling aluminum testing box. He removed my HVAC control module and plugged the testing box connections in, completed his testing, and informed me that my HVAC was operating according to factory specifications and had the correct firmware version.
It is my firm belief today that what he actually did was reprogram (" reflash")(***) the module so that the design flaw inadvertently incorporated at the factory was eliminated. Throughout the early trouble-shooting, '91-92, Lexus had focussed on my supposed improper use of recirculate, telling me again and again, to NEVER use the recirculate mode during the winter months.
Intentionally using recirculate mode in winter time NEVER entered my mind.
Then in the spring the instructions about not using the recirculate mode changed, "subtly" changed. Changed so subtly that I don't at first note the change. In retrospect I suspect the Lexus Bellevue technicians (Chuck Smiley, service manager at that time) charged with dispensing the new information were told not to "accentuate" this new change in the HVAC operational directions, or were simply not told at all.
The new directions were to manually depress, when initially starting the car, or putting the HVAC system in "auto" mode, the fresh mode PB even if/when the light was already on indicating the system was already in fresh mode.
There was a second anomaly involved this PB function which Lexus freely admitted but viewed as not important. When you manually over-ride, manually select, some functional aspect not already selected via auto mode, the auto mode will/would extinguish. Not so with regards the fresh/recirculate "rocker" type PB switch.
The 1993 LS400 HVAC system does not exhibit this anomaly.
*** At trial the Lexus attorney went beyond the boundary, too repetitively in asking me if the fogging had recently re-occurred. Since I had parked the car for almost a year at that point that was all I could tell him in response.
But that questioning, line of questioning got me suspicious.
More....
So, how do I know the HVAC firmware in my '92 was "reflashed".
I have purchased no fewer than three used '92 HVAC control modules from EBAY over the past few years. The first of these, admittedly was due to the need to replace the failed LCD display on my '92. But since I had a "new", different, '92 HVAC control module to experiment with that's what I did.
Turns out that there is a major difference in the operation of my original "reflashed" 1992 HVAC control module and other '92 HVAC control modules.
What Lexus didn't tell me early on about the detailed operation of my '92 LS400 HVAC control mode. Didn't DARE tell me absent letting the "cat out of the bag".
When in "auto" mode, the "auto" indicator light ON, AND the FRESH indicator ON, the 1992 HVAC system will operate the system at least partially in RECIRCULATE mode even in the DEAD of winter.
It turns out that Lexus was trying to tell me how to properly operate fresh/recirculate functionality but WITHOUT pointing out the anomaly, seriously UNSAFE anomaly in that operation.
Bottom line. Lexus' attorneys actually committed fraud, knowingly so, on the court, legal system, in order to prevent the design flaw in the '92 LS400's HVAC system from becoming well known.
So, good luck with the run-a-way engine episode.
I can only agree that if the Both of US did not exist, we would not have
any comments to make.
I also installed a switch under the dash that I could easily actuate if the windshield began to fog over and I needed to use the defrost/defog/demist mode. The switch would add resistance to the cabin's IAT, Internal Temperature Sensor making the HVAC system think the cabin was COLD. The new effect was that when I then actuated the defrost/defog/demist mode I would get LOTS of HEATED airflow to the interior surface of the windshield.
I prevented the A/C compressor from operation in the winter time by adding, switching in, a resistance to the OAT, Outside Air Temperature sensor circuit, making it seem to be always below freezing outside.
Just weeks ago I developed a new modification for the '92 HVAC control module that automatically adds the "resistance" to the IAT circuit whenever the defrost/defog/demist mode is entered.
are you sure about that?
take some highschool physics classes or ask your mechanics.
better yet, take out your car and step on the gas / brake at the same time and see if you can lunch your car.
don't worry, you can safely do that in your garage, as long as you have norm strength in your leg.
the only thing a reasonable husband would do is to get her another vehicle RIGHT AWAY.
what are you waiting for?
Along this line Toyota has an FAQ on the subject on its website.
Stomp on the brake and do not let off the pedal.
Do not pump the brakes.
Do not brake slowly...STOMP!
Shift to Neutral.
All of this is good info for all modern cars that don't yet have the brake override function installed yet...from every maker.
This AutoBlog column is simply another restatement of the false article that the LAT printed. YOU continue to say how scandalized you are by that article, yet you won't sell your Camry to quiet your fears and presumably you are still driving it with no problems.
You bought your car on Jan 12th and you asked a question. The answer that you got was accurate because the new voluntary recall was not announced until this week. Cut the guy some slack, he told you the truth because he knew exactly what you knew on Jan 12th.
From the letter from Toyota to NHTSA you should have no issues on a new vehicle. Read the letter and the comments by NHTSA. The situation might arise in very isolated cases when the piece becomes worn, not when it's new.
I applaud your analytical abilities and your candor. I infer that they didn't buy the Lexus back from the court case.
Hard to believe they went to such lengths to prevent knowledge of a flaw in a vehicle.
Not hard to believe they might be doing the same again with the unintended accelerationn problems.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Then the San Diego accident where a state patrolman could not get the shifter into neutral, couldn't turn off the motor, and couldn't stop. And the black box was "too damaged to be useful" was the interpretation from the only company that only had one reader able to decode the data in the box--Toyota said it had no info!!!! Hmmmm.
This is false. You were not in the car. You were not on the scene. You have no facts about this accident except what you read on the internet. You are however fabricating issues with this family's tragedy -based only on your own speculations - in order to continue your campaign of hatred toward Toyota.
Then the excuse that it's the rheostat that's inside the car that determines the setting of the accelerator pedal. The surface contact wears out quickly (the Lexus was a 2009???) and can stick because of water due to condensation from the heater blowing hot air on it? Hmmmmm. Doesn't compute with my knowledge of physics. That doesn't pass the smell test. My son's going to ask his AP Physics teacher about the possibility of that happening.
This is solely your speculations based again on no facts and no expertise on your part. You are not an expert in this field; You have no knowledge of the structure of this mechanism; You have no knowledge of the structure of the vehicles; You in fact have no knowledge of anything pertaining to this subject. What you do have is an undying hatred for Toyota such that you will attack and fabricate at every opportunity. Am I right?
You can't be serious about consulting a high school phyics teacher.
I think that I am a "reasonable husband", but I don't have deep enough pockets to buy a new car every few weeks. So, I will probably drive the new Camry and she will drive my 2000 Accord Coupe.
Both CR and Toyota have specifically tested this issue. It doesn't have anything to do with sitting still and pressing both pedals. It's when the vehicle is moving at a high speed. That's the reason that the Germans have instatlled the brake override, why Toyota is now installing it and why all the rest of the industry will be installing it soon.
When you're moving at a high speed and you brake - then you let off the pedal - you lose your ability to stop if the gas pedal is continued to be held down. The error is in letting off the pedal or not pushing on it hard enough in the beginning.
The brake override functionality that the Germans are using cuts off the inputs to the throttle when the brake pedal is hit. So even if you have your 'gas' foot pinned to the floor you're not going to be getting any 'juice' to the engine.
If you are talking about being able to keep a car from starting from a dead stop, the test would be to find a long, open area. Then push the brake and press the accelerator halfway, then let up on the brake and press again, repeat a couple more times. You should find the reservoir of vacuum being depleted by the 3rd or 4th push.
For a test to simulate the problem with a car at speed accelerating unwantedly, try 60 mph and use a long upslope on an open road. Press the brake pedal, then let up and try pushing the brake again, then let up and repeat the press. The brake reservoir holds a reserve of lack of air pressure (vacuum), but each press of the brake pedal vents air into the reservoir to help effect the press of the brake. The engine vacuum is not high enough due to the open butterfly to pull air back out of the reservoir in the brake booster.
That loss of vacuum in the booster diaphragm is why it's important to step on the brake hard the first time and bring the car to a stop. It becomes harder each time if the driver lets up and then presses again.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I, along with others, expected more from Toyota. For a manufacturer who has continued to try to set itself apart from the rest and claim they focus on the consumer with superior quality, their bubble has been busted. This goes to prove they are just like any other auto manufacturer and now the quality of their cars continues to fall, while the competition is surpassing them.
Very disappointing Toyota! TOyoTA(L) RECALL! :lemon:
It happened to me years ago in a Mazda and although it was VERY startling it was easily controllable.
1.) Shift to neutral, if the engine races because of no torque load -
2.) Turn off the ignition
3.) Use normal brakes
4.) Use emergency brake
5.) Steer car towards shoulder/guard rail to the point of deceleration and destruction
These are FIVE entire functions that will kill acceleration or stuck accelerator.
I'm quite entertained about the previous "techno-brat" posts about braking being completely disabled WHILST an accelerator goes out of control. Your Camry is not named "Christine" and it does NOT have a mind of its own. It also to this day has (gasp) an emergency brake that is a dumb mechanical "Model T technology" function if all else fails.
I personally don't own one (Camry) but I'm sure they're fine cars. I have followed the Camry story for some time now and firmly believe that the driver in that first sensational event is.... a bone head.
However, more interesting, take a look at the comments of nearly 200 other readers on this issue; though I bet you will find them wrong too and the personal opinions/experiences with Toyota are false.
Seems more accurately that you feel Toyota can do no wrong. Wake up and it is time Toyota be held accountable for their actions.
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But truly I think that you aren't really an owner. Like a few others you have another agenda in pretending to be a jilted owner. By bringing up issues from the 90s and issues from vehicles that you don't even own your real agenda is to bash Toyota as much as possible.
Am I right? It's OK to admit it. Lots of others herein openly admit their dislike and hatred for Toyota. The world accepts views from all kinds.
Do you work for the LAT? Was it your report that Toyota smashed to pieces after you made up those statements? Curious why you keep harping on that subject. It was the first post you made here too. Sorry if you got taken down a notch. :lemon:
take any car with a functional brake, I would be surprised if you can move the car from a dead stop with the brake pedal firmed pressed, no matter how big / powerful an engine the car, or how hard you flow the gas pedal.
Ford Pinto included.
"The brake reservoir holds a reserve of lack of air pressure (vacuum),"
I am not sure what "reservoir" you are talking about there. If you are talking about the brake fluid reservoir, it is unpressurized and I am not sure sure how your pressing the brake, whatever engine vacuum is, would have any impact on it.
yes, with each press of the brake, the vacuum on the vacuum side gets decreased as the hydrolic assist is created in the process. But that vacuum is recycled / re-created quickly from the engine, you don't have a vacuum run-out - an issue you encounter only when the engine is not running.
so I am not sure how your scenario helps your argument.
that certainly is helpful, especially when a vehicle is driven by an incompetent driver.
But those Germans are much more expensive than the Japanese. so if the incompetent driver thinks it is paramount to have such a feature, you should have purchased the Germans instead of the Japanese.
instead, they seem to be wanting others to pay for their buying the wrong car.
I have owned several Toyotas and can honestly say they are not what they use to be. :lemon: I have always stood behind the company as they have always seemed to stand behind their products and their customers, however, after the past year, it has become obvious this is not the case. :lemon:
I feel sorry for Toyota because much like they use to claim, they seemed to be what others strived to become, but their image and reputation is no longer the case.
But I also feel sorry for you as your replies go back to the 7th reply after I posted this thread and from the beginning you called all the claims bogus and denied everything, much like Toyota has been trying to do. You can live happy, but living in denial always comes back to hurt at the end.
I posted this thread much like the LAT or Autoblog did...simply to inform others. As for me, I don't work for any publication or automotive company, just don't like seeing innocent people taken advantage of and I especially feel sorry for the hundreds on consumers who have died or been injured due to this problem. Then again, I bet you would claim their lives or injuries are as you call "bogus" too.
Okay, maybe a little, but not nearly at the vacuum level with which the vacuum brake booster is normally charged, say with the engine idling.
With the throttle WIDE open the intake manifold is basically open to atmospheric pressure.
"Drove" that Mazda minvan right out into the intersection, light RED, with BOTH feet on the brake pedal applying all the brake pressure a 235lb man can muster.
It did stop, finally, but far beyond the point I intended/expected.
Even with abusive and violent driving, little or no scheduled maintenance and driver error or lack of knowledge? How long is the carmaker at "perceived" fault?
There's a thin line here somewhere.
Abusive demands for quality but yet flippant consumers that never even crack open the drivers manual in the glove box.
I lacerated the snot out of my hand with a Stanley tool but I'm not furiously contacting my attorney and waging an all out media event with Stanley Tools. I realized it was my own fault. If an individual thinks cars are less dangerous than power tools they're living in La La land. If one thinks that there should be NO chance of mechanical failure whatsoever, They're the village idiot in La La land.
I noticed great concern about proper floor mat placement from the owners manual:
"The driver's and right rear passenger's floor mats that came with your vehicle hook over the floor mat anchors. This keeps the floor mats from sliding forward and possibly interfering with the pedals or seat weight sensors. If you remove a floor mat, make sure to re-anchor it when you put it back in your vehicle.
If you use other floor mats make sure they fit properly and can be used with the floor mat anchors. Do NOT put additional floor mats on top of the anchored floor mats."
You'll find owners manuals are generally concerned about floor mat placement on ALL vehicle manufacturers. Those instructions were from an Acura manual, not Toyota.....
Make yourself happy, buy a Fusion. You'll love it.
However even with all your ranting you'll never get me to drop my Prius off anywhere. I'm going to drive it happily another 140,000 miles with no issues, almost zero maintenance and 47.4 mpg day after day after day after....
"..step on the brake hard the first time.."
Only if you know the immediate future and therefore KNOW that this is the "time".
But 99.9999% of the time this "incident" will not occur so why stop HARD each and every time.
I stated in the other Toyota thread that I too am disappointed in the drop in quality of recent Toyota models. But I still plan to purchase a 2010 or 2011 Toyota Yaris which I still feel is a good econocar.
In the long term, I think Toyota will do fine. These recalls are actually good for future Toyota buyers. Quality will now be a higher priority than growth.
something very fishy is going on with the blatant Toyota bashing..... Never owned one but I'm sure they are very good vehicles.....
2.) Turn off the ignition: What about these new PB start vehicles, do you fling the ignition enabling RF remote out the window ??
3.) Use normal brakes: We should NEVER assume that wasn't the case.
4.) Use emergency brake: Just simply wouldn't work, emergency brakes are NOT strong enough to hold the car stopped even at moderate throttle openings.
5.) Steer car: If there is one available and even so that would take practice/training. It is EXREMELY hard to pull the nose of an airplane up with the stall warning sounding but knowing that otherwise a very uncertain END (tree line) is coming.
"..completely disabled.."
Not to worry, actual automotive design engineer would take "completely disabling" as a first approach. The thing to do initially would be to use the new DBW throttle control servomotor to "drive" the throttle plate to the idle position. Absent DBW, fuel cut could be facilitated via EFI. That's how my '01 F/awd RX300's TC implements dethrottle and so far no complete engine stalling has resulted.
(gasp) Is right, only an unknowing/unknowledgeable person would suggest an emergency brake as helpful in thse circumstances.
"..a bone head.."
Look in the mirror lately..??
well, you proved my point, quite convincingly, that had those drivers stepped on the brake, they would have stop'd their vehicles. in all the news stories associated with the toyotas, not a single one of those drivers said anything about how / if they used brakes, and none of the "intelligent" reports asked that "complicated" question.
that's also consistent with Toyota's explanation of potentially stuck gas pedal, nothing to do with brake failures.
I guess those drivers are all too eager to blame others for their own mistakes.
"finally, but far beyond the point I intended/expected."
again, as expected.
Not with WOT when the intake manifold is virtually open to atmospheric pressure.
My cars don't have emergency brakes. I learned that after someone in another discussion pointed out they are next to useless for stopping a car from speed and that the owner manuals calls them "parking brakes" which is what they are designed to handle, parking.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
NOT...
The Germans are just quite a bit more innovative than the Japanese (and US) plus not being burdened with the Japanese' "heads-down" culture.
Just what do you suppose the overall cost would be for adding the few lines of code, firmware, of engine/transaxle ECU control to drive the throttle to idle if/when the brake is applied.
When they put this override on all vehicles, then there will be no more burn outs. What fun will that be. :P
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Not in this lifetime. I'd guess you would see the starship Enterprise before Toyota makes 100% made in Japan cars.
While I was at the gym today, I was watching the latest "Herbie the Love Bug" movie and in the movie it shows Herbie, a VW Bug uncontrollably "taking off" while the girl driver was inside the vehicle behind the wheel of the car. The VW Bug was out of control and took off like it was on steroids. In the movie scene, it was so funny when the VW Bug took off and when its driver didn't have any control of the vehicle. I was thinking about the Camry taking off like that all thruout that movie. It was so funny.
well, if the Germans aren't more expensive than the Japanese, why didn't those safety -first buyers who are hysteric about the Japanese buy the Germans?
As to cost, well, sometimes a business decision is far more complicated about costs.
gtgtcobra: No worry's your Camry would never do that because don't you remember it loves you.
So..... How many posters in here ever had an accelerator get stuck? Seriously? Be truthful (that's asking a lot in an internet forum)
And if you really did, what caused it? After your nerves calm down from the first shock of it you realize it was.... The floor mat or soda can.
Funny how we all become scientists, medical doctors, airline pilots and automotive engineers behind the "cloak" of anonymity of an internet forum.
Toyotas are fine. Come to think of it - the only car I ever owned in my life that I considered "dangerous" regardless of a stuck accelerator was, a Ford Maverick.... What a piece of ^%$^^.....
I'm in the waning part of my life (half a century is already well complete) and in that time I've only had one stuck accelerator. You should try it sometime - It'll really stir up your coffee!
If somebody in here really is an automotive engineer - am I not mistaken or is there a little "technical requirement" for the lowly parking brake?