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Station Wagon vs SUV
beachfish
Member Posts: 97
I considered an SUV, but couldn't afford one in 1986. I did buy a 1986 Subaru GL 4wd wagon and used it successfully for 14 years to surf fish on North Carolina's Outer Banks. It would drag a little in deep, soft sand, but went anywhere with the tire pressure lowered to 13-15 pounds.
This was the model with the 4-wheel independent suspension, carb., crank windows, white spoke wheels, dual-range 5-speed, steel skid plate, armored exhaust system and 3-way manually adjustable rear shocks.
The front sub-frame members rusted through last year, so I sold it.
I enjoyed this wagon. It went on the beach, it floated briefly in seawater a few times (couldn't be helped!), it went in the snow and ice and hauled a lot of stuff, and people, over the years including 11-foot-long surf rods and the lumber I used to build a sun room off of the back bedroom upstairs.
All in all, a very practical vehicle.
Now I'm out looking for another go-almost-anywhere wagon.
I've been looking at Foresters, among some others, but let me use the Subaru as an example of what I'm finding -- automatically dimming rearview mirrors, compasses, thermometers, 6-cd in-dash changers, no front skid plates, entry- and exit-angles that are suspect, ground clearance that is suspect and they even stopped putting doors on the little storage compartments in the back.
SUBARU!!!!!(and the rest) Put the useful equipment back on the wagons and dump the tack-on junk like the auto-dimming mirrors and the heated seats.
And finally, all of the Subarus I've seen here are loaded with junk. No wonder they have to discount them 3 or 4k from the sticker.
Is anyone else looking for a useful wagon that doesn't have to double as a luxury sedan?
John
This was the model with the 4-wheel independent suspension, carb., crank windows, white spoke wheels, dual-range 5-speed, steel skid plate, armored exhaust system and 3-way manually adjustable rear shocks.
The front sub-frame members rusted through last year, so I sold it.
I enjoyed this wagon. It went on the beach, it floated briefly in seawater a few times (couldn't be helped!), it went in the snow and ice and hauled a lot of stuff, and people, over the years including 11-foot-long surf rods and the lumber I used to build a sun room off of the back bedroom upstairs.
All in all, a very practical vehicle.
Now I'm out looking for another go-almost-anywhere wagon.
I've been looking at Foresters, among some others, but let me use the Subaru as an example of what I'm finding -- automatically dimming rearview mirrors, compasses, thermometers, 6-cd in-dash changers, no front skid plates, entry- and exit-angles that are suspect, ground clearance that is suspect and they even stopped putting doors on the little storage compartments in the back.
SUBARU!!!!!(and the rest) Put the useful equipment back on the wagons and dump the tack-on junk like the auto-dimming mirrors and the heated seats.
And finally, all of the Subarus I've seen here are loaded with junk. No wonder they have to discount them 3 or 4k from the sticker.
Is anyone else looking for a useful wagon that doesn't have to double as a luxury sedan?
John
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So should I go and find all the exceptions to this all-encompassing rule now as well? Or maybe you'll want to admit upfront that not all "wagons" handle better than all "SUVs".
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that "wagons generally handle better than SUVs but you should investigate the specific models that are of interest to you"?
OT
As far as the original post goes, my wife and I did originally consider some SUVs as they looked like fun but we found them to be too big, making it hard to get us and our stuff inside, hard to park them, bad on gas and top heavy for handling. For similar reasons we didn't want a minivan.
We thought about the Subarus and AWD would be nice but the price point for a good sized Su wagon was just too high.
My next car is Subaru Impreza WRX. It runs so well, like an SUV, and go real fast like a sports car. I got everything I needed but better. It's also a AWD, excellent commuter vehicle, and as for my parents THEY LOVE IT SO MUCH, they helped me pay it all off this month! When we got rid of the SUV, they didn't even whine one bit when we showed up with my new car. The SUV is an image thing. You have to drive a big car to let the whole world you are well off, and others they think THEY OWN THE ROAD.
Station wagon is making a comeback. Those SUV owners are really polluting the world. It's like smoking a cigarette. The smokers know it's not good for their body, but they smoke anyway. The SUV owners are stuck because they bought it but they can't back away from it. But, people still buy them, because they know they CAN.
I bought a 2002 Silver Forester S Premium with leather and nearly everything except the hitch, rear skid plate and speaker upgrade. It came with the tweeter upgrade, but not the speaker upgrade(and it needs it, I think.) FWIW, all of the options were factory-installed.
So far, it's great. If there's any road or wind noise it's on a frequency I can't hear anymore. Getting 24 mpg with half of it on the Interstate and half in town and I'm always the first one away from the light, too.
Where do I buy a sturdy front skid plate? I've searched some, but need some user input.
Inconsiderate salesman/salesmanager story
I had the invoice price written on a piece of paper in my pocket and everything else in the car. I'd been looking all over the state and saved the local "We Sell For Less" place for last. Went in at 4:00 p.m. on 8/31, saw the one I wanted and asked for a cash price. I had an equity line check and a pen in my shirt pocket.
Mr. Almost-knew-his-product-line wanted to look at the sticker. He wanted to talk to the manager. He wanted me to drive it before he asked the manager for a price. He wanted me to drive it before he told me the price. He wanted to discuss Subaru's strong points. You know the routine.
He was a nice guy, just too predictable. I was ready for almost anything, but mostly wanted an answer to my questions "You're selling cars, right? How much is it?"
So he gave up and went to get a price. For those nodding off, I'll summarize. I still hadn't made an offer at this point, only commented that the sticker was a fantasy.
Five minutes later he's back with some story about them needing to sell one more to make 50 or more for the fifth month in a row. His first offer was invoice plus $100. Okay, that was rude. I'm ready to butt heads and whine and cry, and they pull that low-first-offer-take-it-or-leave-it nonsense. What kind of dealer is this?
I opened at $200 below invoice, but only got them down another $80. Then I went to dinner, but still couldn't get them to go any lower later. Oh, well.
The salesman promised to mail me a free tube of touch-up paint, but I haven't seen it. It was his idea!!!
What a guy! And I sent him a referral. Boy do I feel stupid.
John
P.S. My 79-year-old father wasn't too sure about the Forester - he likes large cars and at least a V-6. Then he drove it. He was very impressed with the handling, the ride and the pickup. Oh, and the headroom. He still likes wearing his hat when he drives. I claim it's a habit he picked up as a State Trooper. He denies it and claims to have witnesses to prove it's a much older habit. Who knows?
Not only did he drive up in his new wagon this morning, he also brought me the long-promised touch-up paint!!!!! They had to order it.
John
Now, take it easy for the 1st 1k miles, keeping it below 4000rpm and vary speeds. I'm at 42k miles and she stills runs great.
Hop over to the Subaru Crew topics under Owners Clubs. There you will find several active topics. Hop into Meet the Members and introduce yourself, then hop over to Modifications and ask about the skid plates. I know Lucien will have some useful info, maybe Colin too. There were links to skid plate vendors earlier, but I'm sure they'd be glad to re-post them for you.
Congrats.
-juice
PS Oh, and we hold a weekly chat every Thursday night, join in
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
Also, did anyone here consider a Station Wagon before purchasing a SUV... or vice versa. What were the deciding factors that weighed in on your final choice? Thanks for your comments. ;-)
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
tidester
Host
SUVs
That was then, this is now. Let's face it, it's cool to look like you are an outdoor enthusiast. It's fun to sit up high in a truck and look down on the road, but it bites to drive these trucks. In truth, there aren't many pure SUV's left on the road. Not many of the SUV's being built today can be driven on anything short of a gravel road.
Today's SUV's are simply mini vans or wagons with AWD and a tough looking exterior. Car makers realize that Image is what sells. If we make buyers feel like a back country guide with our car, we will sell units. My point is that wagons and SUV's are really close to the same thing.
In a way this makes sense. Only 2% of the SUV population will ever leave paved roads. Very few people need off road capability. I have owned SUV's and I have used them as off road vehicles. It is fun to take these off road, but as often as people do, one can rent a Jeep for a day when needed.
Let's face it. Wagons make more sense, but they are not cool. I own a wagon and it gives me the handling, power, comfort and room I need. I do not have a family of ten and have no need for an Excursion of Suburban. There may be a few people out there who need this kind of room. I doubt there are many.
Bottom line, SUV's sell on image. We as humans have a need to feel important and if driving an SUV gives you that feeling, bully for you. Is a wagon better than an SUV? No not really. Is it more practical in the real world? You bet. Go ahead and drive your SUV. Enjoy it. Fill it up with you outdoor gear and your friends. Take it to the mountains and please for your sake and the truck's, drive it up a jeep road (please be responsible if you do). Enjoy our image maker. You can smile down at me on the road as I pass you in my wagon.
I too have a Forester S Premium. It's an white '01 model with about 22K on it. We love it, and my daughter's friends have named it the "Toaster"...
BTW, we also love the bun warmers and auto-dimming mirror.
Bob
-juice
Our options then become an SUV, mini-van, full size van, or 2 or 3 wagons. Mini-vans and full size vans are not an option for us so they get ruled out right away. Most full size SUV's also get ruled out because they scare my wife and I find them foolish.
To further complicate things we live in Wisconsin and want 4WD or AWD and at least a V6 for an engine. The choices (as far as I know) of wagons that offer these qualifications are either an Audi A6 Avant and the MB E-class. There are several SUV's that offer these options. Including the Dodge Durango, Ford Explorer, Toyota Highlander, GMC/Chevy/Olds extended versions coming out soon, Mercedes Benz M-class, Acura MDX and maybe something else I'm forgetting. Not only are there more options in the SUV vs Wagon market but the price difference between the options is considerable.
My point is that the choice of an SUV is not always image. I agree that most of the time it is but there are a good number of people who have legitimate reasons for them to choose an SUV. I would love to own a wagon and I'm really excited about the new tall wagon/crossovers that are coming out. I'll be in the market for a new vehicle within the next year and can't wait for what the future holds.
Thanks for your patience on this post.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
I think the Volvo V70 has an optional 3rd row seat for kids, and the Ford Taurus wagon may still offer one, too.
As for SUVs, the Honda Pilot looks promising, and will seat 8. There will be wait lists, though.
You can get an aftermarket 3rd row seat for the Isuzu Trooper, too, and those are priced much lower than in the past ($22-25k).
I will respectfully disagree with one point you made, though. You say SUVs are not always about image, but earlier in the same post you mention minvans are not an option and get ruled out right away. That's because of the image, right?
-juice
http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/020107na-6.htm
The Chrysler Pacifica is a vehicle that really makes me anxious to see what the future holds. For my needs and parameters it fills them all very well. I would also like to see the new MB GST, however I think it will be priced more than I care to think about.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
I don't see how anyone could cross-shop wagons and SUVs. To me they are completely different classes of vehicle, even if you compare cars to SUVs based upon them.
I forgot one other, the Suzuki XL7. It just got a bigger engine, too. The 3rd seat is cramped, but at least it's there.
I didn't find the Vue comfortable when I sampled one at the DC Auto Show. The seats in the LS are much better, front and rear.
-juice
I've owned a Saturn and will never do it again. I also would never recommend to anybody to own one.
It's getting easier and easier to cross shop the two types of vehicles because of the mixing of what makes each one an individual. What it's creating is a "new" type of vehicle referenced as either a crossover/luxury sport wagon/sport wagon/tall wagon. I personally don't think it's a fad as mentioned in Automobile magazine. I also think it's an incredibly viable alternative to SUV's because of the added fuel efficiency and driving perfomance that they typically offer. Sure, you're always going to have the individual that associates bigger with safer or desires that "commanding view of the road" but, there's also the individual that will only take public transportation or buy alternative fuel vehicles. To each his/her own. I'll get off my soapbox again.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
Tidester- Perhaps we should change the title of this discussion to "The Next Big Thing." Or at least add the word "crossover" to the end of the title. ;-)
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards
I'm a little confused...you mentioned seating for 6 or 7 yet isn't the Audi limited to 5?..as does the Outback.
I'm asking since the minimum 6 seating limits the choices so much.
It's getting easier and easier to cross shop the two types of vehicles...
Interesting comments.
I think they are completely different classes...designed for fundamentally different primary functions. One is a family-oriented people + cargo vehicle that tries to stay within the "car" parameters and the other is basically a truck that is designed for heavy-duty "sports" activity such as towing, off-roading and heavy hauling.
Of course, the functions are converging in various vehicles...the wagon, which get 4WD/AWD and sometimes more clearance...the mini-ute that gets closer to car parameters...and even some sedans that get more utility-oriented.
But...I think one reason they get cross-shopped in a way that doesn't line up with the functions is when folks whose requirements line up pretty well with a wagon (or MV) go for the SUV...not because it's such a good fit...but because of the 'image' thing...and perceived safety (even though the statistics show that wagons and MVs are safer than SUVs).
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
Or at least add the word "crossover" to the end of the title.
"Crossing over" kind of reminds me of that John Edwards character ... not sure we want to associate with that! :-)
tidester
Host
SUVs
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
I was just quoting directly from the Edmunds options list for the Avant.
I thought specific info would be helpful. Was it incorrect?
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
http://www.fhi.co.jp/subaru/tope00.htm
Look at the 1972 tab in the time line. Subaru came out with a Leone 4WD wagon, which even had a lifted suspension and low range gearing, about half a decade before AMC. It was the 1st 4WD drivetrain in a car, hence the first true crossover.
I do recall the Exiga concept. Quirky (typical Subaru) styling, but the interior is just like the Pacifica. A crossover before it's time.
The 2005 may use a new GM platform, but Subaru will take the lead in development, and it'll likely use a boxer engine and AWD, true to Subie's heritage. Exiga is an older concept, so I do not think it'll be even loosely based on that.
Gil: it's true, the frameless windows are double-sealed so you do have to slam them a bit. At least the design did very well in side-impace tests (Legacy, Forester hasn't been tested). Lots of other cars use them, like the Integra, ES300, and high-end Benz and Bimmer coupes.
-juice
I think the crossovers are the best vehicles for someone needing room for 6+, AWD, and versatile cargo capability. Vehicles such as the Pilot, Rendezvous, and MDX are more carlike in their ride and handling, while the Durango and Explorer are more trucklike.
Other 3-row options, which are better than the wagons, are the ML320 and Discovery. Their 3rd row seats hang from the sides of the rear cargo area and fold down when needed. Unfortunately, they take up a lot of space when stowed, and seem rather crude when compared to the vanishing 3rd row seats found in the aforementioned SUV's.
The Pacifica looks really good to me, although I am hesitant to trust Chrysler reliability.
The Rendezvous has almost no cargo space behind the 3rd seat, so it's also not ideal for routine use. The Pilot looks better in this regard.
-juice
The ideal setup, of course, is a split folding 3rd row like the MDX or Pilot.
I agree with ateixeira in that the 3rd row isn't for routine use. If you needed that you'd buy a Suburban, van or mini-van. I do think though that all vehicles that come with a third row should take into consideration the safety of those passengers. I do remember seeing a picture of a MB that had been in a rear end collision. The passenger compartment had been protected and the force of the crash had been transferred around them. MB does take into consideration rear passenger safety on their vehicles (but, you would expect them to). Unfortunately, you pay for this kind of safety and engineering.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
If you are hit from behind, either you are moving at speed, or the car that hits you isn't going that fast. There is much less energy to absorb.
-juice
- Ford Fusion - What do you think?
- 2002 Suzuki Aerio SX
- Upcoming Infiniti FX45
Come check them out and let us know what you think. Thanks for your participation.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks & Station Wagons Boards
Some high-end german touring coupes still use frameless doors. I'm used to mine and I like them. The doors are much lighter and no less safe.
Neon: I guess Dodge could not figure out a good design. Subaru has. No surprise there.
-juice
The trend shows that people like the high seating and styling of SUV's but nothing else. That's why car-based SUV's are selling so well. Notice how true SUV's don't sell well anymore, i.e. Grand Vitara?
People who buy the Forrester don't care about towing! Geez.
I think your towing and fishing and L.L. Bean catalog image is completely overdone and the exception, and not the rule.
People have not been predicting hatchbacks and wagons to come back until maybe the last year or two. And every new incarnation of a unibox design has done very well so far. No sales duds as far as I can see.
They are evolving not dying.
You're right about sales...LTVs (which include MVs & PUs) were over 50% of sales and SUVs about 25% last year. But...over 60% of SUV sales are still truck based SUVs and that's a bit skewed by mini-utes.
I can now look at a wagon but still there is no great gas savings for most of them.
Wagons are generally in the mid 20s mpg while larger SUVs avg about 15 and mid ones 19.
Grand High Poobah
The Fraternal Order of Procrastinators
My 25mpg average is about the same as an SW2 would get. And I have AWD and a bit more cargo space and payload.
And it can meet the light duty needs of most owners, like mine. I use it for bike racks and utility trailers, for hauling mulch and wood chips.
Subaru owners don't own Bayliners, they own canoes and kayaks. And the LL Bean image is accurate - you don't need a huge boat to go fly fishing.
While "trucks" have taken over more than 50% of sales, the one you mentioned, the Vue, is really car-based. So are the Escape, CR-V, RAV4, Santa Fe, and Tribute.
So, the reality is that many trucks are no longer trucks in the traditional sense. The only reason they are classified as trucks is the more lax CAFE standard, 20.7 instead of 27.5 mpg.
-juice
The Forester can tow 2000 lbs, I've hauled about 1500 lbs and it did fine, BTW. I have photos if anyone would like to see it in action.
But would you really sacrifice 5mpg for more towing capacity when you might not ever tow? You're talking about higher operating costs and less range between fillups, just for that small possibility?
You can always rent a truck from UHaul for $19.99 a day. That's probably less than the gas would cost you over the life of the car.
Remember, you're going to pay $200-400 or so just for the hitch package. That could pay for several rentals.
I can understand if you own a boat, that you would want something that can comfortably tow a large load. That's different, and that's why there are lots of choices out there.
-juice