Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

ateixeira · March 2005

Or a hybrid powertrain, perhaps.

In Brazil they sell the EcoSport, though I think that's based on the tiny Fiesta.

-juice

katiesmom · April 2005

I just bought a 4-WD Santa Fe at the end of February. I would question a dealer who doesn't even know the options on a vehicle he is selling. You might want a different dealer who you can trust to know the vehicle and therefore answer all your questions. I love the 4-WD as I am sure you will!

aspesisteve · April 2005

they are advertising the base LX model in my local paper for $23,388
that comes with a powerfull V6 and seating for up to 8.

i don't see Subaru beating this for value

ateixeira · April 2005

Ad prices are deceiving. You go in and they ad freight, advertising fees, processing fees, etc. That price looks too good to be true, so it probably is. I'd believe $25k.

In the Forester thread someone just paid $22.4k for a Forester XT, that's the turbo that'll outrun an S2000, never mind a Pilot. Those things are useful but not the least bit sporty.

-juice

mtngal · April 2005

I was amazed at seeing that $22.4K for the Forester XT. If any of the dealers around here would have been willing to sell me one for that price, I'd be driving one right now! I'm not unhappy with my choice of vehicle, just sort of disappointed that I couldn't get any of the Subaru dealers to go below MSRP. The XT was the more practical choice (though who ever buys a car strictly based on practicality?).

dc_driver · April 2005

Right, but I never believe everything that I read either... That is nearly 4K BELOW invoice (if you add in destination), and there is no way a dealer is going to lose that much money on a new vehicle unless it was a program car with about 5K miles or something. Even then they usually only go about 1-2K below invoice on a program vehicle..

And as you mentioned, you can never believe ads, or Internet quotes either. There are too many scams and hidden fees. If gas prices keep going up, you may start to see some of the bigger SUV's being seriously discounted though.

ateixeira · April 2005

Not really, XT starts at $23698 plus $575 freight. Subtract a $2000 dealer incentive and you can potentially get one for $22,273. And that's before they dip into the hold back, which some dealers are willing to do.

My guess is you won't see prices like that where demand is high (Alaska, Colorado, Vermont).

The Pilot above is probably an LX, that's got steel wheels and is missing a lot of other stuff. Dealers don't even carry many of them, people want EX and up. Invoice for an LX is a little over $25k.

And not that they're comparable at all, but if you did want steel wheels go shop a Forester X, I've seen those for less than $18k. There's still a huge price difference.

-juice

aspesisteve · April 2005

look, the ad wasn't a price leader "1 only at this price" but 3, and it included delivery. Of course tax and title are extra.

The thing is, there is alot of standard equipment in the base Pilot including an "spirited" V6 255 horse power engine. I don't mean to burst your buble or rain on your subaru parade, but you could at least acknowledge that hypothetically this deal blows away the Forester in value. I'll give you the 0-60 contest, but from there on you have less car in every catagory including gas milege.

dc_driver · April 2005

Juice,

Got it

I was looking at Edmunds pricing, and they did not account for the 2K rebate, and I was looking at an automatic vs. a manual. That is a sweet price on a Forester, but at the rate that gas prices are going, we will all be driving diesels...

Does Subaru make a turbo diesel.. Now that is an idea..

ateixeira · April 2005

Pilots are a good value even at $25k for an LX, sure, but I still don't believe that deal doesn't have some sort of catch.

The Forester XT will easily blow away that spirited V6. 0-60 in 5.3 for the Subie vs. 7.6 for the Honda, so they're not even in the same league. In fact the base Forester is closer to the Honda, especially after the recent power boost.

Pilot is a great people mover, but it cannot perform like the Forester XT does. Apples to Oranges, really.

Now let's compare the Honda S2000 to the Subaru Outback!

-juice

aspesisteve · April 2005

i think you're a little fixated on 0-60, but that's understandable when it's the only measurement where the Forester comes out on top.

I agree the cars aren't in the same catagory, seeing how the Pilot is larger, but there are certainly many Subaru shoppers that would see this as a better value and would cross the line if they knew the deal was available.

Wouldn't you check out that deal before laying down your $23 grand?

ateixeira · April 2005

Lateral grip, slalom, any type of handling you're looking at. Fun to drive, ease of parking, things like that. Lower lift over, better side support from the seats, bigger sunroof. Longer warranty, more roadside assistance.

Plenty of pros (and cons), they're so different.

Pilot is big and feels big, compared to the Forester it rides and handles like a truck.

Personally, I shop for a new vehicle for 2-3 years before I buy it, so I'd be driving everything out there.

I drove a Pilot, and basically concluded an Odyssey was cheaper and more fun. The only real thing you give up is AWD, a biggie I'll admit, but I'd still get the van because the Pilot just wasn't any fun.

Locally, Brown's Honda sells them at no-haggle prices and they start at about $27k for an EX. One LX in stock and they won't even quote the price, but figure $25k or so.

For $23k I might put the wife behind the wheel to see if she liked it more than I did, absolutely. But whatever I drive has to be fun and the Pilot just isn't.

-juice

mtngal · April 2005

It's funny that you mentioned the fun factor. While I'd like to think that I buy a car because of its practicality, I really don't. I use practicality to take some vehicles out of contention, but when I finally get down to my last couple of choices the fun factor suddenly counts for quite a bit. Both my final choices for vehicles are well known for being fun vehicles.

I thought the Pilot a very nice vehicle, but very bland for my tastes. I never seriously considered it because of its size - it is just too big for me. So bigger size isn't always a plus.

One of the things that always irritates me about car reviews is when the reviewers give extra points to a vehicle with 3rd row seating. I have no use for that extra seat, so I don't want to even look at one. Why should they knock a vehicle that would be perfect for me just because it doesn't offer a 3rd row of seating? OK, I'll get off my soap box now...

baggs32 · April 2005

I tested out the third row seats in several makes and models at last year's local auto show. Believe me, those seats in vehicles the size of a Pilot or an Explorer are no fun at all. Maybe for kids or small adults but not for a 6' tall, 235 lb man.

In contrast, the third row in the Ford Expedition was very comfortable for me and the minivans were in between. I'm with you. Lack of a third row seat in some vehicles should ADD points if you ask me.

p0926 · April 2005

I drove a Pilot, and basically concluded an Odyssey was cheaper and more fun.

Not surprising since the Pilot is built on the Odyssey's minivan platform. Also not surprising that it can't hang with the Forester which is built on the Imprezza's (AKA WRX) compact sports coupe platform

-Frank

ateixeira · April 2005

I just think someone shopping for a people mover isn't going to end up with a Forester. Nor would a Forester shopper (particularly the XT) look at a Pilot.

Forester goes up against the CR-V.

Pilot will go up against the Tribeca.

-juice

aspesisteve · April 2005

no one would argue that the third row in just about any vehicle is suitable for children if even that. But it's the 2nd row of the Forester that strikes me that it provides "3rd row" room. There's great leg room for the driver, but an adult in the back seat would not be very comfortable.

BTW; i drive an Odyssey now and will opt for the Pilot not just for the AWD, but I prefer to have 3 seats in the second row so I don't have to keep the 3rd row up for the 5th person. My kids want to roll down the rear windows also which could not be done till this year's Odyssey.

mtngal · April 2005

While I've certainly cross-shopped vehicles that don't normally go up against each other, it really is different strokes for different people. While those with kids would love to have a 3rd row, I don't have much use for a second row. I can't think of the last time we had the back seat in our second vehicle - it's been sitting under my stairs for the last couple of years (makes a pretty good saddle rack).

If I were looking at Honda's I'd be looking at the Element - I love the interior more than I dislike the exterior. My other half thought the inside was really practical but still wouldn't consider buying one. As juice said, different strokes.

xg350guy · April 2005

Laughing at the tightness found in most vehicles, including my Tucson....I stare out the window of my garage, and look at the 1988 Dodge 15 passenger van I bought as a, well , a kinda project. Thinking to Chip Foose the thang and make it a real stare-mobile. It has 5 rows of very large bench seats, that I think I can actually lie down on. The back row for sure. Funny, for the size that it is, it still gets about 20 mpg on the highway, and can tow about 9000 lbs.

Heck I can take out the last two rows, put in five bicyles, cooler etc, and still seat
1,2,345,678 people comfortably, and park it in my garage. Its a behemoth, but it rocks for stuff-ability, certainly not look-a-bility. But it is kinda cool in its own way.

A little TLC, and whala...good as new. Something to be said about a full size passenger van thats kooled out versus an expedition, pilot or any SUV that won't hurt your pocketbook as much as the SUV would.

Take a look at the new van Hyundai is proposing to bring over soon. It looks like their going to go back to offering swing rear doors like the first Odysey. Interesting, the Kia will retain slide, and Hyundai swing. Hmmm. What are they up to?

Both companies are shaping up to bring some good offerings for the open minded to peruse, and just maybe attain.

ateixeira · April 2005

Why not get another Ody, then? I also like the VCM feature, on the EX-leather and up. Mileage is something like 20/28, amazing.

Forester's 2nd row is tight, but keep in mind that front legroom is class-leading. So move the front seat forward an inch or two and you're in good shape.

Lemme double-check that - yep, in my Consumer Guide book it has the most front leg room of any Compact SUV. Rear room is on the bottom half but not nearly the worst.

Most 3rd rows have a lot less than 33.7", most are in the 20"s I believe.

-juice

ateixeira · April 2005

Front Rear Vehicle
43.6 33.7 Forester
41.4 30.6 Grand Vitara (now that's tight)
42.3 32.6 RAV4 (also very tight)
40.2 35.8 X3 (less total combined legroom)
41.6 36.3 Escape/Tribute (just 0.6" more comibined)
41.3 39.4 CR-V (best back seat, cramped front)
41.0 39.1 Element
41.6 36.8 Santa Fe
42.1 37.2 Tucson/Sportage (beats Santa Fe!)
40.8 37.2 Liberty (cramped front)
41.8 36.8 Freelander
42.3 35.5 Outlander
41.2 36.8 Vue

Surprise, the Escape and Tribute have a whopping 0.6" more combined legroom, basically the same space. Outlander and Vue are also within one inch combined legroom.

RAV4 and Vitara are tighter front and rear, those are the ones you should be complaining about. BMW X3 also has less total room.

Slide the front seats forward 2 inches, which still leaves you with as much leg room as any of the main competitors, and you have 35.7" of leg room in the back. So perhaps Subaru's mistake was they let the front seat track slide too far back.

-juice

scape2 · April 2005

Forester has another advantage over CRV, it won't cat fire.. Check out post 894 in the CRV engine fire fourm... The Fire issue goes on and on and on and on....... :confuse:

p0926 · April 2005

So perhaps Subaru's mistake was they let the front seat track slide too far back.

Don't they dare shift any leg room rearward! My 6'2" frame loves the abundent front leg room in the Forester

-Frank

aspesisteve · April 2005

surely you jest,
the last I looked at the Subaru Forester problem thread there were over 5,000 posts. I'm sure I could go in there and dig out all kinds of horrer stories that owners have had. Lets be fair.

Sure you can push the front seat up in the Forester, but the gripe I read about is the comfort of it's back seat and how it is a little too bench like - not reclined enough

dc_driver · April 2005

When I was shopping for small SUV's, I loved the Forester, but I am right around 6' tall, and with the front seat in my normal driving position, it was pretty cramped in the backseat, especially compared to the CRV and Tribute. It was not horrible, the RAV4 was ridiculous, but could definitely pose a problem if one of my taller friends wanted to sit in the backseat.

The other thing show stopper was the styling. While I did not mind the styling of the Forester, my wife did not like it as much (thought it was just to boxy looking, especially from the back). But, that is obviously an opinion, like I said I do not mind the styling. Is the 06 going to look similar?

ateixeira · April 2005

Funny how when you prove an objective point, the focus shifts to something subjective.

The back seat on my '98 Forester reclines as far as you want it to go!

06 got a face lift and an overall lift as well, as in more ground clearance. That plus a taller hood give it more of an SUV look. My guess is more people will like it, but people that like the low sport wagon look might not.

-juice

ozman62 · April 2005

mtngal · April 2005

that no one makes a vehicle with the practical interior of the Element, the power of the Forsester XT turbo and the gas mileage of the Honda Insight. Now that's a vehicle I would drop everything and buy...

ateixeira · April 2005

Subaru will change the gearing for 06 (taller), so it should be a bit more efficient. But the rubberized cargo area is only available on the LL Bean models, not the XT.

-juice

suvshopper4 · April 2005

Dimensions don't tell the whole story.

Ease of ingress and egress matter too.
Rear-seat passengers in the Forester have to get their feet into and out of the footwells, and for an average-sized adult, that takes some doing.

p0926 · April 2005

It's been said before but bears repeating... anybody routinely transporting 3-4 full-size adults should probably be looking at something other than a Forester. Of course most vehicles on the road have a single occupant and for the occasional transportation requirement, the Forester's back seat is sufficient.

-Frank

ateixeira · April 2005

You're right about the narrow door opening.

But also keep in mind the Forester's seat height is more accessible because it's not so high. That offsets the narrow door opening somewhat. In fact Forester has won awards from disability organizations for that reason specifically.

And once you're in you are well protected with the best side-impact crash test scores in this class.

It would not be my first choice for a 5-person basketball team.

-juice

ezshift5 · April 2005

..change for '06 Forester.......

.. XT taller low gear has been mentioned........

..will the non-turbo/NA Forester X get gearing mods? (Always looking to push the fuel effieciency envelope...............not that EPA 30 Highway is already nifty.......ez

ateixeira · April 2005

I doubt the gearing will change, I think it was already using the 4.11 final drive ratio.

If it keeps the same 23/30 with 173hp I'd be happy.

-juice

aspesisteve · April 2005

sorry to beat a dead horse,
but if you're like me, and thought the Honda Pilot was too expensive and was looking at the Forester or Legacy as an economic decision then you'll be interested to know that the Honda Pilot's are selling at under invoice. Don't just take my word for it but read the posts in Edmunds Pilot pricing forum.

I see many posts from many different parts of the country paying $500 to $800 under invoice.

p0926 · April 2005

Even at $500 under invoice, the base Pilot is still $24k whereas you can get a Forester X for under $19k. In any case, the Pilot is a good choice for a larger SUV (the Pilot is bigger than the Explorer) that seats eight but I doubt that there are many people who cross-shop it with any of the vehicles in this group.

-Frank

ateixeira · April 2005

Here's a dealer that has one single LX for $24.8k:

http://arlhonda.brownscar.com/Default.aspx?page=new-inventory

That's for a cloth LX. Every other model in stock is $27k and up. It's a good value for someone shopping for a people mover. No doubt.

But yeah, you can get a Forester X from this dealer for $18.4k:

http://www.fitzmall.com/carfind/resultsa.asp?Search=NEW&order=INT_PRICE

$6200 is a rather large spread when you compare base/cloth models.

-juice

rsholland · April 2005

Pilot vs. Forester? You're comparing apples to oranges juice. They're in different market segments.

Bob

ateixeira · April 2005

Someone brought that up, my pricing exercise was just to show that they're not really price comparably when equipped the same way. Of course.

It's not even apples to oranges. Maybe apples to a bigger fruit, like grapefruit? Canteloupe, maybe? :P

-juice

ateixeira · April 2005

But there is no 6 cylinder Forester. The 2.5l is about a second slower to 60 mph, while the turbo is at least a couple of seconds faster. But technically the base engine is closer in terms of performance, especially since the 2006 Foresters will get a power boost.

I didn't use prices from the paper, those don't include freight and have all kinds of gimmicks. I got prices from no-haggle dealer web sites, both include freight in that case. And it's fair because I'm comparing prices from the same region.

If you time it right, you might pay less, but the same is true for the Forester.

$23055 for fitz cheapest XT, and that comes with heated seats, alloy rims, rear limited-slip diffy, and much quicker acceleration, for a couple grand less than a steel-wheel unheated slower base Pilot.

I am confident enough to call that a real world price because we purchased our Legacy from that dealer.

-juice

lbloom · April 2005

How is leg room measured? Is it max. legroom? The reason I ask is that the CR-V and the Forester didn't seem to have 6" of difference in the rear when the front driver's seat was adjusted for my driving position. :confuse:

baggs32 · April 2005

Did you have the CR-V's rear seat all the way back? It slides on a track and has about 4-6 inches of travel IIRC. Of course you do lose some cargo space if you opt for more legroom.

ateixeira · April 2005

Yes, it's max front, min rear. In other words, they put the front seat all the way back.

This measure hurts the Forester, which has the most front leg room in its class, and makes the rear seat seem smaller than it actually is.

Here's some data to chew on, I posted earlier in this thread: ateixeira, "Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute vs Saturn Vue" #4410, 6 Apr 2005 12:30 pm

Forester has more combined leg room than the RAV4, Vitara, or even BMW X3.

When you factor that in room is not bad.

-juice

lbloom · April 2005

Thanks to you and to baggs32 for the preceding post. I forgot that the CR-V's read seat is adjustable. I suspected that it was min. rear. That eases my mind a bit.

There is one other interesting bit about the CR-V / Forester comparison. My wife, who has small feet even for her 5' 2" height said that the brake / accelerator position was awkward for her. She can't move back and forth between the two without lifting her heel because the brake is much farther forward than the accelerator. She tried two models and they were both the same. I know that the brake is supposed to be forward a bit, but it was extreme for her. Has anyone else run into this sort of issue in either the CR-V or the Forester?

ateixeira · April 2005

I'll have to pay attention tonight when I drive home.

I think the brake pedal may be close to you so that if your foot slips you hit the brakes first, and don't runaway at full throttle.

I have size 11 feet so it's not a problem for me, I can use my heel to pivot between the two in my Forester.

-juice

stevedebi · May 2005

"Of course you do lose some cargo space if you opt for more legroom."

The published CR-V specs of 39 Inches of rear leg room are with the rear seat all the way back. The published specs of 33 Cu Feet of cargo is also with the rear seat all the way back.

So essentially, instead of losing some cargo space, you can "opt to lose some legroom" and gain cargo space. I estimate about 40 Cu feet back there with the seats slid all the way forward.

One should keep in mind that the CR-V is a taller space, and you might be able to fit more of what you carry behind the Subaru rear seat.

ateixeira · May 2005

True, but you'll likely have to stack it. Not a viable option for groceries, for instance.

The Subies have a good amount of floor space.

-juice

badness · May 2005

sat in a forester for about 1 1/2 went to Long Island to go fishing ,we left from NJ,and I must say it was a nice ride,but I'm about 5.8 and I think if the seat went back a tad more I would be sold

baggs32 · May 2005

Thanks for saving me from having to type that juice.

A taller cargo space is nice if you have to tow along something solid and tall which I'm guessing doesn't happen all that often. At least for me anyway. Most of what you haul around back there are individual, "loose" items which become potentially deadly projectiles if not secured properly.

Face it, you're not going to fit an oven/range, refrigerator, w/d, etc. in the back of any of these small utes. This past January I had a new bathroom vanity, medicine cabinet, and sink (all boxed) along with various other hardware in the back of our Escape (back seats down flat of course). Anything much bigger than that will not fit in a CR-V either so the extra height is lost if you ask me. It may give CR-V owners some bragging rights but that's about it.

paisan · May 2005

I think Juice took home a new Fridge in the back of his Forester.

-mike

Suzuki Grand Vitara vs Subaru Forester vs Hyundai Santa Fe vs Jeep Liberty vs Ford Escape vs Saturn

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