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Comments
I bought my 2002 Chrysler T&C LX last summer for a great price with the intention of selling or trading it on a new 2005 Odyssey once the buying frenzy for the new Odyssey died down.
The 2005 Odyssey EX is nicer than my 2002 T&C but not enough to convince me to sell a perfectly nice vehicle that still has almost 70,000 miles and 4 years left on 7 year 100,000 mile powertrain warranty and almost 4 years and 35,000 miles remaining on the DaimlerChrysler
"Added Care" warranty that covers almost everything else.
My 2002 Chrysler T&C LX is just as quiet and smooth riding as the new 2005 Odyssey EX-L-Nav-Res that I test drove recently...although the Odyssey is more quiet while accelerating, has more comfortable seats, and better leg and foot room for driver.
Your GC ES is probably as nice as the 2005 Odyssey Touring and has some features that you will not get with the Odyssey Touring even though the Odyssey Touring will have side air bags, side air curtains, better seating flexibility, more power, and the legendary Honda reputation for quality.
I would NOT add a sunroof to a 4 year old vehicle nor to any vehicle. A sunroof must be included in the vehicle while it is being built.
I probably wouldn't have bought the T&C anyway, since I've been seriously underwhelmed with the reliability of my last three DC vehicles. I still have a '97 Dodge Dakota kit. I call it a kit because I've been trying to assemble it properly ever since I bought it new. Many faults. The cruise still cuts out after 2-3 hours and requires the engine to be restarted to reset it. I went to arbitration on that and basically was accused of lying by the DC rep, so it'll probably be a long time before my shadow is cast across the threshold of a DC dealer's door.
You couldn't find it?? Were you looking at the right thing? (given the last sentence of your post, you may not have looked at all...)The T&C Limited has navigation standard. And can be had with no effort at invoice price - and then 2 thousand rebate and 0% financing. Out the door pricing for a Loaded T&C limited (also with rear DVD video, sunroof, Sirius & bluetooth handsfree phone hookup), with cost of credit factored in, is less than a EXL w/ DVD & NAV. And even better bargain is a loaded T&C Touring, where you can still get most major features and options
Enjoy your Honda, it's a very nice vehicle, but let's not misinform potential shoppers (not saying you did it intentionally)...
A rebate would have been nice, but there are none on Ody's. The Chrysler financing deals don't mean much to me since I pay cash. But a couple of thou one way or the other on the front end don't make much difference long term. It's the reliability and the resale value down the road that counts, and DC vehicles have traditionally fallen short in both those areas.
The T&C DVD based NAV is self contained in the head unit - one slot there, and then 6 slots for DVD's & CD's lower down. The size and location isn't an issue for me. The voice instructions work nicely, so you don't need to look at it much.
On the EX-L w/ DVD & NAV, is there only one slot for CD's & DVD's? And the Touring, the changer only plays CD's? I was looking at the Honda site, and this is what it looks like to me.
With little kids, having a DVD changer is invaluable, IMO.
Folks, who do you REALLY think is paying for all of this?
Personally, I think the stow n' go seats are more of a gimmick than anything else but, you may actually put them to good use. Honda almost did the same thing but decided not to because of seat comfort. I've had customers go sit in these and return to buy an Odyssey.
To me, the big drawback to DCX vans is the dismal resale. I have to deal with this all of the time when people want to trade them in and I can't get bids anywhere where close to what the people want for them. If you keep your cars for many years, this isn't that much of a problem.
To each his own...no car is right for everyone and I always say, people should buy the car they like.
happy easter!
This is a great example that one only has to work SMARTER not harder to achieve results, profits in this case. Both Toyota and Honda have very profitable companies.
Culture Clash?---Chrysler, DaimlerBenz miles apart
... at this moment, there are more Americans owning stock in DaimlerChrysler (or will be before long) than Germans ... held by individuals, but by various funds, which Americans invest in. ...waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_culture_clashchrysler_daimlerbenz
I am sure that is not the case with Toyota or Honda.
While it's true all auto manufactures buy parts from abroad, it's important where the final profit goes. If Honda makes $4,000.00 net profit per vehicle and that money goes back to Japan, it does little good creating jobs in America. That is true for Chrysler also, but not nearly as much, as a lot of the stock is owned by Americans.
The primary attribute of Chrysler's ATF+4 is it's much lower pour-point and flow characteristics at colder temperatures. ATF+4 is the only automatic transmission fluid rated at -55 F supplied by a automobile manufacturer. ATF+4 also contains friction modifiers that have unique friction characteristics tailored to the design of Chrysler automatics. This is the specified fluid for all newer Chrysler automatics and replaced ATF+3.
In the Rochester, New york area there were many lawsuits against shops that used the wrong ATF in Chrysler mini-vans. The use of Dexron-Mercon in any Chrysler automatic means eventually self-destruction. While Chrysler did have some design and quality control issues with earlier FWD units, there are many owners that under correct maintenance went well beyond 100,000 miles WITHOUT a transmission problem.
Dusty
Enjoy!
http://www.forbes.com/management/2005/03/28/cz_0328oxan_carbrands.html?partner=yahoo&refer- rer=
I bellieve that the quality of American vehicles has improved over the past years. But the Japanese has raised the bar making it more difficult for the Americans and others to catch up.
Since we are in a minivan forum, if the American minivans has the engine & vehicle performance, refinement, and quality(perceived or real)of the Japanese, I would consider the American minivan in my selection process. Some/many may be tempted by the huge rebates on the domestics(e.g. DGC going for $16K) - but I would prefer to pay more for better engine & vehicle performance, refinement, and quality in a Japanese vehicle. Since owning my Ody, I have never taken it back to the dealer for any repairs - that experience is priceless!
Recently, more competitors, including Honda and Toyota, finally introduced products that were able to grab a portion of the minivan market. Also, in recent years, the total minivan market share of vehicles sold has tailed off a bit. So it was almost inevitable for Chrysler to recently experience more capacity than demand. WThus it was not necessarily all Chrysler's fault for not working "smarter" by limiting capacity.
I am not excusing Chrysler for slipping up a bit by being to late to introduce certain features to meet currrent trends, such as stowable third row seating, but by and large, whenever more and admittedly good competition enters a market, it is very difficult to maintain market share.
The US automotive market is nearly as flooded with competition now as it was in early in the 20th century with many manufacturers fighting it out for market share.
As for all the refinements on the Honda. It does. But even with all those refinements, five speed automatic and a quieter engine, it only gets about two miles per gallon more than the Dodge and is less than a sec. faster in the quarter-mile.
Plus the Dodge has no rattles, has more storage room and has stow-n-go seating.
While the Honda has a nicer interior, the Dodge has a great sound system and a great A/C, which is priceless here in Arizona.
Add that to the fact that much of the profit from my van will remain here and go to US investors and stock holders, I am helping my country, above and beyond just the Americans making it.
While they have lost market share because of more competition, they have had to expand their St. Louis plant, to build more long based stow-n-go vans.
Quality has come up so much on their products, they are now rated much better than Mercedes.
Any money made by so called American companies(Chrysler is now owned by MB) does not necessarily stay in America. Ford invests money aboard in Jaguar, Volvo, etc. GM does the same with Daewoo in Korea, Opel in Germany. GM even buys the Ody 3.5L engines for their Saturn Vue! And of course MB Corporate uses any money made by their global divisions in their own homeland and here to expand their capacity - MB's (luxury brand)market share is increasing vs Chrysler decreasing; so expansion is needed overthere and here as well.
In this global commerce world, a manufacturer will focus their investments on any location where it make business sense. The past days of tariffs and protectionist measures are all but over.
As far as investments go, my stocks in Toyota and Honda ADRs have appreciated so much that it makes the domestics(GM, Ford, and DB)shares look pitiful!
Let's get back on-topic.
Thanks!
I’m one of those people who would never be caught in an American made car but I find it hard to justify 10K more for a base Odyssey (or Sienna). I told my wife it would be nice to buy this vehicle for no money down and have it paid off in 3 years (plus have a 7 year power train warranty). I could think of a lot of things I could do with an extra 10 K (and my wife would quickly pick up the slack if I had difficulties)
I don’t get to drive how I want anyway with the family in the car so sporty handling etc is not a consideration for me when buying a mini-van.
It will probably be a couple years before we take the plunge into the mini-van territory, so the climate may change at that time but there may be a convert here.
I understand your dilemma-- I'm kind of in the same boat myself but do realize what you are getting (or not) for the extra 8K or so (comparing the Odyssey LX with a base Grand Caravan):
+safer vehicle (front/side airbags, VSC, traction control standard)
+more powerful engine, smoother transmission
+disc brakes all around (vs drums in rear for dodge)
+60/40 split 3rd row bench folds into floor
+better fit and finish
+does the dodge have front *and* rear AC -- I believe the Odyssey LX does?
Also, if you don't plan to drive the vehicles "into the ground" the Odyssey should hold its value better. I believe that after 5 years, the Odyssey is projected to be worth about 46% of its initial value and something like 29% for the Caravan. That means that the Odyssey loses about 1K less in value after 5 years (its still worth about $11000 vs about $4600 for the dodge).
ETA
An office co worker of mine did buy a brand new 2005 Grand Caravan SE+ with Stow and Go seats and with the 3.3 V-6 for just about $20K before tax, title and plate transfer. This is still a pretty good price, in my opinion.
Money in the bank does not depreciate, unlike money sunk into a vehicle, so the better retained value arguement that people use to justify purchasing an Odyssey or Sienna becomes less clear cut if you consider the value of the money saved, particularly if you keep the vehicle a long time. A ten year old minivan isn't worth much no matter what the brand.
As used cars, these are SALEPROOF!
You get what you pay for, I suppose.
I do realize the Odyssey has a higher level of refinement and equipment, I guess I’d have to see if I think it’s worth the price difference.
FWIW - I’ve driven in co-worker’s Odyssey and Pilot and prefer the Pilot’s drive, but don’t care for the interior.
A new DC minivan with a 7 year 70,000 mile warranty is much more appealing to many buyers than a 4 or 5 year old Odyssey with no warranty.
At the end of ten years, you sell the stripper Caravan and you end up with $9K you saved initially+$2K or $11K. Assume you instead bought the Odyssey originally and sell the Odyssey at ten years for a generous $4k. This puts you ahead cost wise by $7K having bought the stripper Caravan. Not a fortune, but still a substantial sum of money, which can be used as a partial payment on your next vehicle.
Note the stripper Caravan may not have a lot of bells and whistles but it does have AC and a stereo AM_FM CD player as well as the usual power steering and power brakes. About all you really need to be comfortable.
Actually, our household bought our first Caravan in 1985 and it was what you would call a "stripper" in current terms. We drove it for nearly 100k miles and 12 years, sold it for a bit over $2K private sale, and bought a 1996 Caravan. This one is more loaded up SE Sport as we bought a leftover bargain 1996 in March of 1997. We still are driving this one and at 88K it is doing well. None of the dreaded transmission problems on either van. Only weak point has been expensive AC repairs on both of them, otherwise they have both been pretty much trouble free.
Our kids and we survived just fine riding in that first stripper Caravan for 12 years!
Isn't choice great, you can buy a new minivan for anywhere from $14K on up to nearly $40K and they will both get you where you want to go.
Hard to believe but I am old enough to have grown up in cars without A-C, and I turned out OK, at least in my own opinion
I don't believe in living like a hermit, just a bit of moderation on extravagance when it comes to investing in depreciating goods, like vehicles.
Why do you think DC went to the longer warranty? Becasue they HAD to in an attempt to build confidence in a troublesome product!
Of course different cars will appeal to different people for different reasons.
That's why restaurants have menus.
Still, if these fit a person's needs they can be an inexpensive way to buy a new minivan.
I guess I've started looking at things differently - not everybody gets to reach and enjoy retirement. I'm not talking about going overboard and ignoring tomorrow. But IMHO one must live for today.
My 14 month old T&C has had no issues. As in NO SERVICE WHATSOEVER, except 3 oil changes.
So I guess I have the best warranty. Imagine that, a Chrysler owner actually saying such things...
Disclaimer: individual results may differ, on either a DC minivan or a Honda.
Suzanne
I like my used 2002 T&C LX and got it at 28K miles at less than half the MSRP of a 2005 Ody EX.
Nevertheless, if I were to purchase a new minivan today I would get the 2005 Ody EX (cloth) for about $26,500 since I have not seen DC dealers offering the low price that you paid.
The writers felt that a minivan is the best all-around family vehicle and the Stow-N-Go flexibility available even on the base Grand Caravan SE makes the GC their choice for the BEST family car.
If it were me, I wouldn't buy the base model. It will be a four banger and the service requirements on them are much more than on the V-6's. They are also under powered for such a heavy van. It is also the short model with very few bells and whistles.
I would buy one that is one or two years old and get the Grand Caravan with all the bells and whistles on it and it still has the remainder of the 7/70 warrantee for about the same price, or a few thousand more, depending on the year you buy.
I am sorry to hear you make the comment that you'd not want to ever buy an American car though. American cars have come a long way in the last few years, minus a couple of models. They're not that far behind some of the best Japanese cars, and are ahead of some. They are way ahead of European cars.