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Comments
Second, how in the world did you come up with the $4,500 figure for financing cost??? Honda always offers reasonable financing rates. At the currently offered 2.9% the cost of financing a $30,000 minivan for 5 years is $2,200.
What I am saying, is for the money and the features the Dodge has, the Dodge was a better deal for me.
With the things I wanted on a mini van, Dodge had them for a much cheaper price. Some things like stow and go, Honda didn't have them at all. To get all the other things I wanted on my van, I would have had to buy a different model Honda that was many, many thousands of dollars more and had things on it that I wasn't willing to pay for, just to get some of the things I did want, such as automatic rear lid closer, three zone air conditioning and over head console. That is because of how Honda packages their options which is a lot differently than how Dodge does it.
Comparing the two vans is like comparing a Caddy to a Buick. Sure the Caddy is a better car, but if I can get the features I want on the Buick for thousands less, and others that the Caddy doesn't even offer, why should I spend thousands more and still not have the features I want?
Is the Honda a second or two faster to 60 mph? Does it handle nice and ride nice? I'm sure it does. Does that mean the Dodge has a dog of an engine and handles bad? Not at all. The Dodge has plenty of power for me and drives just like a car.
I got all the features I wanted on my mini van and paid many thousands of dollars less for it. If I have a problem with my van it is covered by two warranties. If it has to be kept in the shop over night, they will give me a free loaner. I am happy to get what I want and save a bundle of money. I have never knocked the Honda.
I took Edmond's cost to own figures like several people asked me to do
I've come to trust only the following two numbers from Edmunds: the invoice price and the MSRP. I found all the other numbers they proved to be totally useless. TMV, for example, is so far from true prices that it's causing a disservice to the general public!
I guess the financing cost was calculated using 6-7% interest rates. Anyone can get 4.5% rate from various on-line banks and credit unions, while Honda always offers much lower than market rates. It's too bad that Edmunds is using such misleading numbers...
How We Calculate New TMV Prices
Steve, Host
I read the link you provided (again) and I still have the same question.
How, exactly do they find out what someone paid for a car? Unless a car dealer is breaking the law, they can't provide confidential information.
So, do they poll the buyers? I know if someone were to call me, I would tell them that's none of their business! Wouldn't most people?
Even so, most people quickly forget what they paid. There may have been a trade involved that clouded the numbers etc.
I also think some people have a tendency to "fluff" the numbers a bit too to show off thier prowness at working a deal.
In the past, a host told me this was secret information. Even so, I just wonder how someone can know what someone actually paid?
[edit] Hey, I answered this for you once before!
steve_, "Honda Odyssey: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" #5875, 12 Sep 2004 3:33 pm
I know the car lobby is strong, but exactly what law is broken if a dealer discloses prices? You may have signed a non-disclosure agreement but that's contract stuff. I bet the dealers report this kind of information all the time to other information companies (Hoovers?) and to their bankers and insurance agents.
Steve, Host
Yeah, I suppose, for a price some dealers may release that information. Nothing illegal as long as names aren't attached to the numbers I guess. Seems like an oddball way to make a few extra bucks.
As far as Bill, I have no idea what has heppened with him. He used to send me e-mails and he was a member of another board I frequent.
One day, he just disappeared.
I can't fault your logic in getting more features for the dollar. I do think you will come out in the end with a bit more cash in your pocket (compared to a similarly equipped Honda), especially if you hold on to your vehicle for a long time. With the warranties, you can drive it for seven years and not worry about repairs.
I'm interested to see what Dodge brings out in '07 (or whenever their redesigned van is due out). I'm also interested to see if Honda will up their warranty to 5 or 7 years (at least on the powertrain).
They were forced into doing this in an attempt to inspire confidence in a troublesome product.
You PAY for that warranty, BTW. It's simply factored into the price of the car.
The best warranty? The best warranty is the one you never have to use.
That said, I would suggest to Honda (I have)that they do the same thing. Raise the price a bit, and up the warranty time. Soe people judge a car by the length of the warranty.
Please, allow me to be extremelly sceptical of this statement. Car market is not like real estate market where all the transactions get recorded by the county and (usually) are available to anyone. Given what I observed wrt to TMV for several cars, I seriously doubt that Edmunds gets pricing information from more than one or two dealers in the area. And what guarantee is there that the dealers are reporting data correctly?? It's certainly in their interest to inflate the prices on the reports! Given that there's no way for Edmunds to get independent confirmation of information, I seriously doubt this methodology produces unbiased results.
Your experience is a classic example of the total cost of ownership where one gets aggravated by the problems of an unreliable vehicle with wasted time at the garage and the costs of repairs.
The reliability reports of vehicles is pretty accurate as it polls a very large sample of owners.
Steve, Host
They were forced into doing this in an attempt to inspire confidence in a troublesome product."
Doesn't Honda have a extended warranty on their transmissions?
Never heard of both sliding back doors and the tailgate going out at the same time. But I guess anything can happen. Must be some dealership if the machanic couldn't fix it. I would have bought me next van somewhere else.
Your experience is a classic example of the total cost of ownership where one gets aggravated by the problems of an unreliable vehicle with wasted time at the garage and the costs of repairs.
The reliability reports of vehicles is pretty accurate as it polls a very large sample of owners."
While I do believe Honda makes a more reliable van than Chrysler/Dodge macakava, I wouldn't make it sound like Honda doesn't have their problems too.
I have read plenty of problems with the Honda mini van not only on this board but others. Like 100,000 extended warranty on their transmissions. A recall just last year on transmissions and fuel pumps. Complaints of slidding side doors not closing or rattling. Brakes, engine stalling and ect.
While they're not as numerous as on the Chrysler products, they also are many more Chrysler mini vans on the road. The numbers alone would say they're going to be more Chrysler complaints.
If you think Hondas don't have their share of problems, I suggest you start reading these Honda boards a little more.
It's never an insult to question where prices are coming from. Whether they're from Edmunds ... or from the dealer. I expect nothing less from an educated consumer.
Snappy come-back about the extended transmission warranty Marine <g>.
Steve, Host
That's a pretty silly thing to say. First of all, I'm not "insulting", I'm questioning. Second, if it were something against Edmunds' rules, I'm sure Steve would've pointed it out or deleted my post.
" Totally useless" and "a diservice to the consumer" didn't sound like questions to me but, hey, if it's O.K. with Steve then I'm wrong.
Honda really messed this one up, while I worked at Honda we would replace at least 5-10 transmissions a week. One time we replaced a trans for 1 customer 4 times in one week because Honda kept sending us bad ones. That's pathetic if you ask me.
Other than the tranny problems the other most common problem is the power sliding doors may fail. There were many updates Honda sent out, but still they would stop working."
Recall-
Results : 1 | All records displayed
Make : HONDA Model : ODYSSEY Year : 2005
Manufacturer : AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 04V536000 Recall Date : NOV 11, 2004
Component: SERVICE BRAKES, AIR:ANTILOCK:WHEEL SPEED SENSOR
Potential Number Of Units Affected : 2247
2004 Honda Odyssey recalls
Results : 2 | All records displayed
Make : HONDA Model : ODYSSEY Year : 2004
Manufacturer : AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 04V420000 Recall Date : AUG 25, 2004
Component: FUEL SYSTEM, GASOLINE:DELIVERY:FUEL PUMP
Potential Number Of Units Affected : 69538
Check to Request Research. Submit below. Get Summary
Make : HONDA Model : ODYSSEY Year : 2004
Manufacturer : AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number : 04V176000 Recall Date : APR 13, 2004
Component: POWER TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
Potential Number Of Units Affected : 1099796
Check to Request Research. Submit below. Get Summary
While I'll agree Honda puts out a good mini van and has less problems than Chrysler, they are far from perfect.
As you can see, Honda still hasn't got their transmission troubles behind them.
That's ok, I thought it funny that all of them would go out in so little time unless it was an electrical problem. Still can't understand why a good Chrysler mechanic couldn't fix it. Don't think these mechanics are getting enough training on these vehiciles.Everything now is so complicated, it's impossible for the average guy to work on them anymore.
I get a little put off when some try and make these foreign vehicles more than what they are. I would be the first one to agree that Honda and Toyota make great cars, trucks and vans. But the quality of American vehicles has come up a lot in the last few years.
I have seen the recalls on the Honda. I have heard the complaints on door rattles, wind noise, doors that don't close, brakes that make noise and tinny sounding speakers even on the 2005's.
I read one where the guy said he drowns out the noise and rattles by turning up the radio. Another one said you have to expect noise in a mini van because of the big doors. Well obviously they never rode in a Dodge or Chrysler mini van. There are no squeaks or rattles. It is quiet, very quiet. The speakers are very nice, at least on the six and eight speaker system.There is no tinny sound to them.
I'm not recommending anyone buy a Chrysler/Dodge over a Honda or Toyota. Buy what you want. All have their advantages and disadvantages. Just don't believe that Jaapanese owned mini vans are so much better than American vans and are free of most of the problems that American vans have. They have plenty too.
macakava, yes, and I pay for it in other ways. My wife calls this side of me "The Robot"! And it gets me in trouble at times ... sigh.
I find True Cost of Ownership to be fascinating, because it provides some numbers based on data that I have not seen before. Sometimes you have to look closely at the variables (for instance, the exact model vans used for comparison), because it can skew the numbers vs. what you might thing at first glance. But kudus to Edmunds for creating it.
The way the different makers package their vans, make it almost impossible to compare make for make. It would be nice if each packaged the same way. The way it is now, what one model might offer as standard on their middle of the road model, another might have that one feature on their higher priced model.
I'd like to see everyone have a base model with the same features on it and have everything else optional, so you could build your van the way you want and not have to buy a bunch of stuff you don't want. It would take longer to build them at the factory though.
Next time you are bored, go do a net search on how mattresses are marketed (Slate, for example). Talk about impossible to compare!
Steve, Host
Sure, but this information is NOT available to Edmunds or any other company!!! It's as private as your personal tax return!
True, that's why they say never tell the salesman about a trade until the salesman comes up with the numbers and know what the Blue Book says your trade is worth. Most know how they'll take from one and add to the other.
"Next time you are bored, go do a net search on how mattresses are marketed (Slate, for example). Talk about impossible to compare!"
No thanks Steve, cars are bad enough.
" Ah...no, I'll probably sell it myself"
Yeah...right!
The trade is worth what it's worth and it doesn't matter whether it's sprung on us or not.
The "blue book" may or may not reflect what it's really worth also.
True enough. But dealers don't always give you what your trade is worth. Usually if they do, they won't cut that much off the price of the new car. One way or the other, they are going to try and get you.
So you get to choose between the dealer hassle and the selling it yourself hassle.
Steve, Host
A lot of times it's a trade nobody wants becuase of what it is, high miles, etc.
In the state I'm in, there is a whopping 9.1% sales tax on cars. There is also a sales tax credit. By the time the seller has the car detailed, pays for an ad, waits for the phone to ring etc, is it really worth it?
Then the prospective buyer shows up late, wants to take it to a mechanic who nit picks it to death. A lot of risk and liability too with selling your own car.
How much is really "saved"?
Now, in some cases I'll suggest to my customer that they sell their high mileage undesirable car by themselves. We don't want it, our wholesalers don't want it either.
Edmunds has "how to sell your car" articles if any lurkers want to investigate doing it themselves. Like this one.
When the '99 Ody in our long term test fleet was sold by editor Phil Reed, it was priced at TMV, one person called, and it was sold to him for $19 less than the asking price. I don't know if a Caravan would be as easy to sell.
Steve, Host
Wouldn't mind so much if they at least tried to give you $9,000 for a trade worth ten thousand. It's when they want to give you seven fifty or eight for it. There is a good profit to the dealer with what they get cutting a few hundred off MSRP and what the dealer actually paid for the van. Nothing like screwing the buyer two ways.
Then they get a kick back on financing, add on's and extended warranties.
The buyer doesn't have to accept what a dealer offers. He can certainly sell it himself like you have mentioned.
If the customer is happy with the deal, nobody got "screwed" as you so nicely put it.
And the customer doesn't have to finance through the dealer. They can shop on their own for a better rate. They also do not have to buy "add-ons" or extended warranties.
Why is making a profit such a bad thing? I'll bet you've never owned your own business.
I have nothing against a guy making a profit. But I do have something against making a big profit. Making a few hundred dollars on a car should be plenty. But it's more like thousands.
True, you don't have to buy add on's or extended warranties, but a person is almost crazy not to have an extended warranty now days at the cost of fixing these cars. But why jack up the warranty so much? You get almost double for a security alarm on these cars. More than that with fabric, tinted windows and paint protection.
A lot of dealers put this stuff already on their cars so you have to buy it or wait till your special order comes in.
If the customer knew how much the dealer was making off of him, he wouldn't be that happy.
People don't understand the power they have when buying.
Steve, Host
It sound like you've decided what is a acceptable profit for a dealer to make. A "few hundred" dollars on a 30,000 car.
If you had any idea of the trememdous expense involved with buying and operating a car dealership I think you just might feel a bit differently.
As a customer, I don't care how much profit a merchant makes "off of" me. If I'm happy with the value I don't care.
ronsmith38, "Minivan Shopping" #254, 18 Jan 2005 2:11 pm
Steve, Host
"As a customer, I don't care how much profit a merchant makes "off of" me. If I'm happy with the value I don't care."
I would care. When your talking that much profit, it costs you that much more to pay for it over 4-5- or six years.Then add the interest you have to pay on that huge profit and your talking hundreds more.
I don't know about most of you, but I am not a rich man. It takes two incomes to make it. I don't want to pay out anymore than I have to.