Hyundai still uses steel in a lot of places where others are using alloys or aluminum.
The Forester is very advanced in terms of material use. The block is alloy, the hood and hatch are both aluminum. The roof rails, front bumper beam, and rear bumper beam are also all aluminum.
If you look at the safety scores, and then check out the bumper basher tests, Forester comes out on top on both, so you can't say they're expensive to replace, either.
that's the whole reason for having the XT - to have that extra power. Otherwise, why buy it - the 4 cylinder Forester would certainly be cheaper.
I can honestly say that I don't baby my FXT when it comes to applying the gas. In fact, the FXT is the first vehicle I've owned that actually gets better gas mileage if you use a more aggressive shift pattern. This seems counter-intuitive but once I stopped worrying about shifting at lower rpms my mileage improved by about 1 mpg.
Currently have had my 4x2 '01 Ranger for almost 4 years, and have been generally happy with it. I have the 4.0 V6, which gives me lots 'o power and with the auto tranny Ford gave me a beefed up suspension which gave me a ride height close to the 4x4.
However, several things bug me enough to consider replacing it: -Poor milage (I do have a heavy foot, and avg. about 17 mpg of 60% city/40% hwy) -decent handling, for a truck (would like better) -would like all-wheel drive
I drive almost entirely on roads, but because of my work about once every month or two I am driving through undeveloped land or construction sites. All-wheel or 4x4 would be nicer than leaving my truck on the side of the road - not to mention snow conditions here in Western PA in the winter.
In considering replacements (still not sure if a different compromise would be better) I was looking at the '05 Outback 2.5i. The more I looked at it (online) I wondered what the advantage is over the Forester 2.5X, other than IMHO better styling, and an inch more ground clearance. The disadvantage seeems to be that it costs more, and the cargo space is configured differently, but apparently has the same cubic footage as the Forester. Also it appears that the approach and departure angles are worse than the Forester - okay, maybe just the departure angle.
Why would I go for one vs. the other? Mtngal, I noticed in post #4225 you drove all the Subies, any thoughts? Since I'm interested in improving my handling, I wasn't considering the Wrangler Unlimited, but how's that in comparison to the Subies?
Why not test drive both and see which one you like best and best suits your needs? Both offer better handling and gas mileage than the truck you're driving now and of course they have AWD. The Outback is a little more refined and has more room for backseat passengers. The Forester is a little more nimble and perhaps offers better utility. Both have sufficient ground clearance for light to moderate off-roading but if departure angles are a real concern then you're probably better off looking at a true off-roader like the Wrangler or Liberty. Of course then you'd be pretty much back where you started in terms of fuel efficiency ;-)
I've tested all of the Subies several times, and several years apart. The first time (several years ago) that I compared the Outback and Forester on the same day I prefered the Outback - as I recall, I thought it had a smoother suspension and was quieter than the Forester, which felt too harsh. That day I thought the WRX would be my choice - I wanted the extra power of the turbo.
The last time I drove the Outback and Forester was this summer and we drove the Forester XT and the Outback with the H6 engine. This time I found the Forester to be my preference - it didn't seem any louder and I definitely preferred the suspension - it seemed like the Outback leaned in the corners more than I liked. I also preferred the seating in the Forester - it felt like you were sitting higher compared to car's floor and my sitting angles felt more natural (I have back problems). So this summer I would have bought the Forester over the Outback.
I really like my Unlimited, but there is no comparison with the Subies. The Unlimited handles much better than the short wheel base Wranglers - the extra length definitely translates to better handling. SWB Wranglers turn on a dime, the Unlimited turns on a nickel, as do the Subies. The Unlimited's ride isn't as harsh as their SWB brothers, but it is a truck, not car-like, which the Subies are. And it is even thirstier than my 5 speed Sport (18 plus with the Unlimited compared to right around 20 with the Sport, all highway).
If you are looking for comfort, convenience, and good gas mileage, go with one of the Subies. My choice this summer would have been the Forester. But they are all very nice, they all bring something different to the table, and the best thing to do is drive them both and use that to make your own decision.
Indeed, the Outback's extra clearance is offset by longer overhangs and wheelbase. My guess is the Forester would still be better off road.
Car, a magazine in the UK, rated the Forester GT (UK model) better off road than the Audi allroad quattro and the Volvo XC70, even though it had the least clearance of the 3. For the same reasons above.
Outback is more refined, has a longer interior, and is quieter. Generally speaking it has more standard equipment (heated seats on base model, SAC, etc).
Forester is cheaper, fits taller stuff better, it's lighter, and it gets slightly better gas mileage (23/30 vs. 23/28). It also has a full size spare, which is a biggie if you get a flat off the pavement.
You can get a Forester XT (turbo) for about the same price as a base Outback, so that would be my choice.
We have a '98 Forester and an '02 Legacy, and while on paper the Legacy would seem better, we have a clear preference for the Forester. It's just more fun, and it's hard to quantify exactly why.
I took a quick test ride in a Liberty this morning. I guess my Ranger really handles badly if this Liberty is supposed to handle like a truck - it seemed great to me!
During the drive I was thinking that I wished I could find some rough roads to really see how bad the ride is. Then, I drove my Ranger over the same roads that I took the Liberty on, and was bouncing all over the place! So, the Liberty definitely qualifies for me in the ride/handling department.
Obviously, I'll see no advantage in the fuel economy department, but the 4x4 system will surely work well.
However, there were a number of design details that I wasn't excited about, with the speedometer display being one of them (hard to describe). The rear seat headrests wouldn't come off no matter how much I fought with them, making it impossible for the rear seats to fold all the way down. (The saleman ASSURED me that this would get easier over time with more use - kinda would be nice if it worked from DAY ONE). Also, seems like a small amount of cargo space, but I guess that's just what I get with this class of vehicle.
I'll have to check out the Subies while I have this Liberty experience freshly in mind. The salesman did mention that they were offering $3,500 incentives right now, but I also saw classified ads with one year old Libertys going for $17k.
Of course, despite wanting to improve the three things (fuel economy, handling, and off-road ability) I don't really *need* to replace my Ranger, and I'd like to stretch my cash, so . . . Maybe I'll be your newest fence-sitter.
I guess based on my experience driving the Liberty, I ought to also check out the Escape. And, hey, maybe the Kia Sorento? This is getting more complicated . . .
I'm not sure what I'll replace my '98 Forester with, so for now I'm keeping it.
Glad to hear you liked the Liberty. I liked it too, though it's been a while. It felt taller than I'm used to, but much more refined than the XTerra, when you look at true 4x4s.
One thing tho - isn't the 4WD system part-time? That might be OK for you, seems like you could engage it when needed.
Liberty and XTerra are the trucks in this segment. Sorento is body-on-frame but it has a permanent AWD system, no low range.
Escape and Forester are car-based, quieter and more refined that those. They're also lighter and sacrifice a little bit in terms of ultimate capability off road.
It doesn't seem like anyone has much to say about the Sorento on this board. I prefer the styling over the Hyundai Santa Fe that has been discussed, and it seems to be similarly equipped and priced. Since they must be on the same platform and have the same guts, is styling all that makes them different?
I understood the Xterra to be weak, so hadn't really thought about it.
Sante Fe is unibody and AWD, basically a Sonata platform.
Sorento is body-on-frame. You get 4WD instead of AWD, also. The high-end models feature Borg Warner's TOD (torque on demand), a system you may be familiar with from the Isuzu Trooper.
I would pick the Sorento off road, but the Tucson on road. That's their new small SUV based on the Elantra.
Tucson is almost as big as the Santa Fe inside, but smaller outside, it's just more space efficient. It's lighter, too.
Santa Fe is about to be replaced, so I'd wait to see the new one first.
I wouldn't be suprised to see the Santa Fe be replaced with a truck-based vehicle like the Sorento. I'm a big fan of the Sorento as well, great quality and great price. A back-to-basics SUV if you will.
I very much like the Liberty - it is far more capable off-road than many people give it credit for, and it is fun to drive (I drove it on the Jeep 101 course and really liked it). You can get it with either a part-time 4WD system or a full time system that also has a transfer case. I was all ready to buy one except I spend half of the time in the passenger seat. I have a problem with the floor - if I have the seat all the way back (recommended for little people) I find my short legs put my left foot on the edge of the bump between the seats, at a higher level than my right foot. Not great for anybody but definitely not good for someone with a bad back. My 6 foot husband didn't have a problem at all, so I think it is unique to people who are barely 5 foot tall.
The Unlimited is a Wrangler and so not as refined as the Liberty, but it feels more like the Liberty in on-road handling than the SWB Wranglers.
I wish my other half would have been willing to consider the Sorento - it looked like it offered a fair amount and was priced right.
We rented an Xterra for a weekend this spring and I thought it was very comfortable. It didn't seem weak in town or on the level highway, but the tranny did seem to hunt more than I liked going up the Grapevine. The one we had was hard to get into gear - the switch that releases the tranny when you step on the brake wasn't working right, but I think this reflects how poorly rental vehicles are treated, rather than a flaw in the Xterra's design.
It was a dark and stormy night in western Pennsylvania . . .
and I went and test drove the Subaru Forester 2.5X, Outback 2.5I, the Jeep Liberty (again) and the Suzuki XL-7.
Okay, first of all, I tested the Suzuki because the Jeep dealer was also the Suzuki dealer, and I ended up with a guy who very clearly knew more about the Suzuki, so after the Liberty drive, he asked me to drive the XL-7. More on that later.
Second of all, these were all automatic transmissions, not extensively documented experiences, and so, while driven over the same route, surely Your Mileage May Vary.
I started by driving the Forester X. Seemed okay to me. Just felt a little cheap in design in the interior, but nothing I couldn’t live with. Space-wise it was okay, very comparable to the Liberty. I found the seating position comfortable. I drove it, and it seemed surprisingly rough in ride quality, actually, with the bumps and rough road very much felt. The engine seemed a little weak and pressing the accelerator didn’t always get an immediate response. It handled nicely, though the steering did seem a bit over-boosted.
I then drove the Outback 2.5i. Even with the same cubic feet of storage, the cargo area would be much more useful for me, being wider and longer. The interior design seemed very nice, I liked it a lot, with the exception of the center console location and size (to far back, too low). The ride seemed very nice, and it didn’t feel like it leaned at all in the corners. The steering didn’t seem over-boosted, but maybe I had gotten used to the Forester steering and the Outback’s was the same. Even with the same engine as that in the Forester, the acceleration seemed nice and linear. It wasn’t powerful, but that’s probably for the best with a leadfoot like me. It was certainly adequate so that I think I’d be comfortable with a merge-onto-the-highway situation. Actually, the Outback seems to fit the bill quite nicely, fit-and-finish, handling, and space-wise. The BIG PROBLEM for me was that, even with the seat alllll the way back, the dead pedal for my left foot was just too far forward, or something. I just felt like my leg was bent awkwardly, and even in the ten minute test drive I felt like my knee was getting sore. I don’t know if maybe I would get used to that - otherwise the car seemed great and a good match for me.
I then went to the Jeep dealer down the road. I took the Liberty over the same test route as I took the Subies. I would say that the ride was firm and I could feel the bumps certainly more than the Outback, but they seemed definitely more muted than the Forester. On the more heavily traveled four-lane road, I certainly felt the expansion joints or imperfections very clearly, which I could picture getting old after a while. Finally, it really was affected by the wind gusts, pushed around by them. I really enjoyed the responsive steering - seems perfect to me - and I definitely appreciate the off-the-line grunt of the gas-guzzling V6. I’m not so thrilled about giving up the AWD of the Subies for the part-time 4x4. I did find that the speedometer design that bothered me before wasn’t a problem driving at night the way it is lit, and when I had the interior lights on only ("daylight"), the design actually didn’t bother me much anymore. I did figure out how to easily remove the headrests on the rear seats . . . the salesman who took me for the test drive a couple of days ago just didn’t know what he was doing.
Since my salesman clearly knew the Suzukis better than the Jeeps, he wanted me to try the XL-7, so I did, and here’s what I thought: Longer and therefore more cargo room, but the rear seats when folded are at a higher level than the luggage area, so that doesn’t create particularly useful space. The suspension seemed soft compared to the other three, so going over certain bumps felt like a rocking boat, but the set-up also meant that it rode really smoothly on highway-type road. On the back roads I found that even with the four wheel drive engaged road that hadn’t affected the Liberty unsettled the XL-7, with it sliding sideways a bit because of certain bumps (may have just moved a lot on the suspension). It was a bit weak accelerating, but not too bad. The instrument lights varied in intensity as I adjusted the dimmer, but then would jump to a high intensity after a certain point . . . maybe it was just that particular vehicle’s problem, but that bugged me. Finally, low-speed steering required a large amount of wheel-cranking to get a turn of the wheels when I parallel parked it. In all, as I said to the salesman, “a loser.” I am a model of tact, aren’t I?
In all of the vehicles I adjusted the driver’s seat to where I’d be comfortable, then sat in the rear seat behind the driver seat. I have somewhat long legs, and I still felt comfortable in the rear of all of them. May not be luxurious, but not uncomfortable.
So, in the end: I want to drive another Forester to see if the ride quality was just a fluke in the one I had; I want to rent an Outback to see if the driving position would really bother my left leg; and I want to rent a Liberty to see if the ride quality would actually bother me enough to outweigh the fun I have driving it. In other words, I’m still on The Fence.
And since The Fence is not very expensive, I’ll take my time leaving it.
LOL! You are definitely going about things the right way - don't ever buy a car quickly and make absolutely sure you can live with what you get. Renting is a great idea, if you can find what you want to rent.
I never looked at the Suzuki, but your opinion pretty much backed up the reviews I read of it.
I'm so short that I couldn't reach the OB's left foot rest, though it was perfect for my husband, who's not quite 6 foot tall.
I wonder if the suspension is different in the Forester XT than in the Forester X - Juice, do you know? The reason I wonder is that my reaction the first time I drove the Forester (a non-turbo model) was the same as yours, but when I went back a year (or more) later, I didn't notice it much at all with the XT (I really do have a need for more power, so the XT was a very good choice for me). In fact, if the dealers here would have offered better deals, or if I lived on the east coast, I could be driving one right now.
And its possible it'll be in our driveway in a couple of years, when my hubby gets around to replacing the '98 Wrangler Sport. Next car is totally his choice, since I now have my soft top Unlimited. Well, up to a point. Unless he wants to drive all the time it has to be something I can drive!
I've found that my XT, with its long-travel suspension, takes a set in a turn & holds a line quite well - especially over rough surfaces. More steering correction would be required with either of my SHO's or other sports cars I've owned over the same or similar surfaces. The XT can really soak-up the bumps & can traverse speed bumps, etc. without issue that even my Trooper w/ Rancho's would require a reduction in speed. The XT is also very nimble & offers a lot of utility for its size. I drive my XT for business use which includes being able to get to / on rough construction sites. I checked out a lot of vehicles before my purchase, including the Liberty, but the XT was the best suited to satisfy my needs from a performance standpoint as well as its capability to get me where I need to go - & back out.
These are all fine vehicles with somewhat minor differences. It's just a matter of which fits your individual needs the best.
I researched all very carefully and drove each multiple times before eventually buying a 2005 Forester LL Bean (which is essentially an XS). I live in the Cleveland area so snow is a factor, but I mostly commute on interstates and a little off-roading.
The Outback was really nice but a little too pricey for my purposes (about $5K more) and probably not as good off-road due to the long overhangs front and rear.
The Liberty would be my choice if I was going to do extensive off roading, but on the highway it seems a little tippy and rough for my commute.
One factor I haven't seen mentioned here is that the Forrester comes with very marginal tires as original equipment (Geolandar H/T G900) which does have an impact on ride and traction. This may be what you were feeling on the test drive. The XT may have different tires, but I'm not sure on that.
Why Subaru would put such inferior tires on this vehicle is a mystery too me. Out of 68 tires rated on Tirerack's customer survey, these came in 55th. See
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Agreed on the tire pressure. My Forester came with over 40 lbs in every tire. I reduced it to about 30 and it smoothed out the ride considerably and handling didn't seem to suffer.
I just purschased a 2005 XS to replace my 2001 Saturn to tow on the round behind my motorhome. The Saturn did not accumulate towed mileage. The dealer told me that the XS WILL accumulate. I accepted that and went ahead. Anyone know if true and if so is there a solution?
After much debate and numerous test drives, I finally pulled the trigger on a 2005 4WD Mazda Tribute with package 3 (leather, moonroof, heated seats, 6 disc changer, etc), side airbags, and auto dimming mirror w/compass. I could not be happier with my purchase since before taxes I paid $21,888!! This price includes 3000K in Mazda rebates as well as $1000 rebate for financing through Mazda.
I really struggled with this decision, and truth be told I would have preferred to have bought the 05 Subaru Outback XT or H6 wagon, but could not justify the additional $8K+ and much higher care payments.
I originally test drove the 04 Tribute several months ago, and was not nearly as impressed as the ride that the 05 offered. A few things that I noted were the new placement of the shifter (hated the 04's stalk shifter!), and much quieter ride. The interior is not quite on par with the Outback (as it probably should not be due to the difference in price), but is better than most that I drove. The radio is actually pretty good, and I thought the acceleration and braking were above average.
Had a great dealer experience and they actually gave me a very good price on my trade-in (although it took me going back and forth about 4 times). Bought the Tribute at Browns Mazda in Alexandria VA, and negotiated the price via the Internet beforehand. I think this made a big difference
My thoughts on this thread are this: If you have 30K to spend, get the Outback, but if not, the Tribute/Escape are bargains for all of the features that they offer. The Forester was a strong contender as well, but both me and my wife did not like the exterior styling as much as the Tribute, and felt the interior was just slightly better (again, could not justify the additional cost of the Forester, when the Mazda had as many, or more features for less money).
Other thoughts: the VUE was not even close to be a contender because of the electric steering. What was GM thinking? I also thought the Mazda's interior and road noise was far superior (and yes this was a 05 V6 VUE that I drove). Same with the Equinox.. Hated the steering and thought the engine was loud..
Liked the Honda CRV, but had a TERRIBLE dealer experience at several local Honda dealers. The CRV also did not have as many features as the Tribute, and the seats were uncomfortable.
I would be happy to share more thoughts with anybody who would like them, and wish all of you luck who are facing a similar decision..
I hope they fixed those trannies. I had a 01 & an 03 Trib AWD V-6 & just traded to a V-6 AWD Vue. I toasted both trannies in both Tribbies! My Vue is quieter, smoother, way more powerfull & 3-4 mpg better then both Tributes I had. I have 3 buds with Tributes...1-01, 1-02 & an 04 & guess what...two out of three blew Trannies..the 02,s went twice!!!! My 03 ES did have a lot better AWD system tho...I will give you that!!!
Fixed trannies?? what?? I cruise the net and visit many other chat rooms for Escape/Trib. Never, ever have I heard about "blown trannies" on Tributes. I own an 01 Escape with almost 50,000 miles and my transmission has been fine. I also tow 2 water craft, and visit skii and fishing spots in the Cascade range of mountains. My transmission gets worked hard.
DC, congrats on your choice, you made a good one. My wife and I own both an 01 Escape XLT V6 4WD and an 04 Mazda Tribute ES V6 4wd. We are extremly happy with both of these vehicles. Just remember to regular maintenance on this vehicle and it will last you many miles. Change oil every 3K, change transmission fluid at 30K, rotate tires ect.... Your going to find people that just plain hate Fords/Mazdas. These are great vehicles and are reliable. Check www.msn.com and visit their reliabiltiy area. Even the 01 Escape rates very well for longterm reliability. Zoom, Zoom!
Not sure how to answer the tow miles question...maybe ask in one of the more active Subaru Crew threads.
There's no speedometer cable, it's electronic, so maybe with the ignition off it won't accumulate miles? I don't know.
I can believe the tranny woes because early on they were using the Ford CD4E tranny that was extremely problematic on the Mazda 626 4 cylinders.
I owned a 626 (not with that tranny) and recall in that thread there was about 2 tranny failures per week or so.
So I could not believe Ford used the same tranny for the heavier Escape/Tribute, coupled up to more power. They did claim it was improved.
What they really need to do is put the JATCO 5 speed auto from the MPV in there, or better yet the new 6 speed auto that just made its way into the Mazda6s.
Thanks Scape2, I too scoured the message boards and checked reliability ratings and problem boards, and I did not see any major tranny issues with the Escape/Tribute. I have several friends and coworkers who own Escapes, and they have had minor to no problems with this vehicle. Most of the issues with the Tribute were in the initial year of production, and they seemed to have worked through those issues.
I agree with you on the maintenance front, I always follow scheduled maintenance and was excited about Mazda's warranty 4yr, 50K miles.
It's funny, because I was excited about the new VUE (Honda engine and tranny), but when I drove it, I was not impressed with the interior. The major issue with the VUE that I had was the horrible electric steering. Could not get over that, and I was also amazed at the message boards with all the unsatisfied VUE owners. At that point I dropped it from my list of choices.
Escape/Tribute was voted best small SUV by numerous magazines and car sites, and I was very impressed with this vechicle after the first test drive. I have come to the conclusion that no car is perfect, and that you have to take your time, research and most important test drive vehicles at least two times.
For what it's worth, I have an 02 Escape 4x 4 XLT which is basically the same as the Tribute. I am going to look at the Santa Fe and get rid of the Ford as soon as possible! I got stuck with a lemon and have had no recourse or help from the dealer or Ford. I like the idea of a 10 year warranty! I'm only 500 miles over the 36k mile warranty and I'm getting nothing but ogita from Ford.
Tribute is essentially a twin of the Escape, if you want something different I wouldn't recommend the Mazda. The warranty is only a year longer, and you'll be kicking yourself if it happens again (doubtful, but still).
One of the factors for me purchasing a Tribute vs. Escape was the 4yr, 50K mile warranty that comes standard with the Tribute.
That said, if you feel like you have a lemon with the 02 Escape you should definitely look at your options, although I am not sure a Hyundai will be any more reliable than the Ford. For what it is worth, I just bought an 05 Tribute and did as much homework as I could as far as reliability and value go. I liked the Sante Fe on paper, but the exterior styling is just a little too over the top for me, and the interior was not as nice as the Tribute's (my opinion).
I would not base my purchase on warranty alone. I would drive them both back to back and then decide. If warranty is still a concern, you can always purchase the Tribute (4yr, 50K warranty) and then buy an extended warranty down the road for your own piece of mind. My Mazda dealer had a deal that if you purchase the extended warranty and then do not use it, you get a refund back. Personally, I do not believe in extended warranties, so I passed, but some people like having that security. I also have found that you can usually get a better deal on an extended warranty outside of the dealer at the time of purchase. Good luck, and let us know what you purchase. Oh one more thing, you may want to look at resale value. Although the Hyundai is ranked pretty high on initial quality (the key word there is initial), they have a poor history of reliability down the road and resale value. I almost bought a Suabaru Outback due to this very issue vs. the Mazda, but with the incentives and deal I was getting my monthly payments were significantly lower (and I figure I could take the difference between payments and invest the money, thereby making up the resale difference between the Subaru and the Mazda). Time will tell if purchasing the Mazda was the right decision, but the main thing here is feeling comfortable with your decision at the end of the day.
Oh, one more thing. One of my best freinds is a manager for a Ford service department and he just bought his wife an 05 Escape. That said, I asked him before I bought my Tribute if the Escape was reliable and how often he saw them come in for problems and he told me that from his perpspectve (been at a major dealer here in Northern Virginia area for almost 4 years), the Escape is a safe bet and is relatively problem free if you keep up with the maintenance and care of the car. Believe me, he would not have purchased this car for his wife if he did not feel she was getting a reliable, safe car for her (their) money. BTW, she was getting rid of an 02 Honda Civic because of reliability problems.
Oh, I just couldn't let your #c point go by without passing on a funny story. Years ago I knew a guy who was a regional service manager for GM. Believe it or not, he bought his wife a VW Rabbit!
Generally dealership personnel do not qualify for the same discount that Ford employees do. The best they would be able to get would be equivalent to X-Plan. Even as a company employee, I would not have my wife drive a vehicle that I thought wasn't safe or reliable. The discount is not worth more than my family's safety.
Oh come on now Chuck... I wasn't trying to imply that the Escape is unsafe or totally unreliable, just pointing out that a Ford svc mgr's recommendation isn't exactly unbiased. Kinda like you recommending that someone buy a Land Rover ;-)
I can appreciate your skepticism about a Ford service manager buying anything but a Ford, but the dealer that he works for owns about 10 different dealerships, and I know that they looked at several different vehicles besides the Escape (to include Subaru and Toyota), so I do not think that he was looking solely at Ford. (I also know that he is secretly lusting after a Nissan 350ZX, and I really cannot blame him there!) My point was that he is an intelligent guy, and he would not have purchased the Escape without feeling that it was reliable and safe, and he certainly would not have recommended the Tribute to me unless he felt good about it (he gained nothing from the sale).
Is the Tribute the most reliable vehicle on the road? No, I do not believe so (but then again, my co-workers new at purchase BMW has been back to the dealer more than my Nissan Altima over the past several years, and one time had to be towed!). But it certainly is not the most problematic, and is a good balance between value and cost, and has a solid warranty. From a safety perspective, for about 22K, I was able to buy a sporty (05 S model, with AWD, leather, 6 disc changer, sunroof, side curtain airbags) that has all the options that I wanted with great safety features for a low car payment every month. I really wanted a 2005 Outback XT Limited, but there was almost a 10K difference in price that I could just not justify. There are many options out there, but I personally feel that the Escape/Tribute are great value for what you get. Just my .02 cents...
maybe he was just letting his wife drive what she wanted. when my wife tells me what she wants for a new car, i just grit my teeth and try to get her a good deal on it. now she's driving a black/black escape limited. it's not bad, but the best thing for me is that i don't have to give up my explorer anymore when it snows.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
maybe he was just letting his wife drive what she wanted. when my wife tells me what she wants for a new car, i just grit my teeth and try to get her a good deal on it.
Oh man do I second that! She keeps wanting an Accord for some reason (don't get me wrong, it's not a bad car). Not because she likes it mind you, but because she's always wanted one. Ever since she was 16.
Then she sits in one at last year's auto show and hated it. But she still wants one. Go figure.
She too is driving our '05 black on black Escape Limited and really likes it. We plan on keeping this one for 5-7 years so I still have time to change her mind.
Easy solution - just go to the junk yard or dealer and buy some Accord badges and stick them on the Escape. Of course, that'll cut into your Escape drive time if she falls for it. Even better, buy her a 6 for Christmas and swap the badges on the way home.
..and baggs32. my family is going to come home and find me dead on the floor from laughing so hard! hope i don't fall to the left, knock over the xmas tree and burn the house down too.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Comments
The Forester is very advanced in terms of material use. The block is alloy, the hood and hatch are both aluminum. The roof rails, front bumper beam, and rear bumper beam are also all aluminum.
If you look at the safety scores, and then check out the bumper basher tests, Forester comes out on top on both, so you can't say they're expensive to replace, either.
-juice
I can honestly say that I don't baby my FXT when it comes to applying the gas. In fact, the FXT is the first vehicle I've owned that actually gets better gas mileage if you use a more aggressive shift pattern. This seems counter-intuitive but once I stopped worrying about shifting at lower rpms my mileage improved by about 1 mpg.
-Frank
However, several things bug me enough to consider replacing it:
-Poor milage (I do have a heavy foot, and avg. about 17 mpg of 60% city/40% hwy)
-decent handling, for a truck (would like better)
-would like all-wheel drive
I drive almost entirely on roads, but because of my work about once every month or two I am driving through undeveloped land or construction sites. All-wheel or 4x4 would be nicer than leaving my truck on the side of the road - not to mention snow conditions here in Western PA in the winter.
In considering replacements (still not sure if a different compromise would be better) I was looking at the '05 Outback 2.5i. The more I looked at it (online) I wondered what the advantage is over the Forester 2.5X, other than IMHO better styling, and an inch more ground clearance. The disadvantage seeems to be that it costs more, and the cargo space is configured differently, but apparently has the same cubic footage as the Forester. Also it appears that the approach and departure angles are worse than the Forester - okay, maybe just the departure angle.
Why would I go for one vs. the other? Mtngal, I noticed in post #4225 you drove all the Subies, any thoughts? Since I'm interested in improving my handling, I wasn't considering the Wrangler Unlimited, but how's that in comparison to the Subies?
Thanks all!
-Frank
The last time I drove the Outback and Forester was this summer and we drove the Forester XT and the Outback with the H6 engine. This time I found the Forester to be my preference - it didn't seem any louder and I definitely preferred the suspension - it seemed like the Outback leaned in the corners more than I liked. I also preferred the seating in the Forester - it felt like you were sitting higher compared to car's floor and my sitting angles felt more natural (I have back problems). So this summer I would have bought the Forester over the Outback.
I really like my Unlimited, but there is no comparison with the Subies. The Unlimited handles much better than the short wheel base Wranglers - the extra length definitely translates to better handling. SWB Wranglers turn on a dime, the Unlimited turns on a nickel, as do the Subies. The Unlimited's ride isn't as harsh as their SWB brothers, but it is a truck, not car-like, which the Subies are. And it is even thirstier than my 5 speed Sport (18 plus with the Unlimited compared to right around 20 with the Sport, all highway).
If you are looking for comfort, convenience, and good gas mileage, go with one of the Subies. My choice this summer would have been the Forester. But they are all very nice, they all bring something different to the table, and the best thing to do is drive them both and use that to make your own decision.
Car, a magazine in the UK, rated the Forester GT (UK model) better off road than the Audi allroad quattro and the Volvo XC70, even though it had the least clearance of the 3. For the same reasons above.
Outback is more refined, has a longer interior, and is quieter. Generally speaking it has more standard equipment (heated seats on base model, SAC, etc).
Forester is cheaper, fits taller stuff better, it's lighter, and it gets slightly better gas mileage (23/30 vs. 23/28). It also has a full size spare, which is a biggie if you get a flat off the pavement.
You can get a Forester XT (turbo) for about the same price as a base Outback, so that would be my choice.
We have a '98 Forester and an '02 Legacy, and while on paper the Legacy would seem better, we have a clear preference for the Forester. It's just more fun, and it's hard to quantify exactly why.
-juice
I took a quick test ride in a Liberty this morning. I guess my Ranger really handles badly if this Liberty is supposed to handle like a truck - it seemed great to me!
During the drive I was thinking that I wished I could find some rough roads to really see how bad the ride is. Then, I drove my Ranger over the same roads that I took the Liberty on, and was bouncing all over the place! So, the Liberty definitely qualifies for me in the ride/handling department.
Obviously, I'll see no advantage in the fuel economy department, but the 4x4 system will surely work well.
However, there were a number of design details that I wasn't excited about, with the speedometer display being one of them (hard to describe). The rear seat headrests wouldn't come off no matter how much I fought with them, making it impossible for the rear seats to fold all the way down. (The saleman ASSURED me that this would get easier over time with more use - kinda would be nice if it worked from DAY ONE). Also, seems like a small amount of cargo space, but I guess that's just what I get with this class of vehicle.
I'll have to check out the Subies while I have this Liberty experience freshly in mind. The salesman did mention that they were offering $3,500 incentives right now, but I also saw classified ads with one year old Libertys going for $17k.
Of course, despite wanting to improve the three things (fuel economy, handling, and off-road ability) I don't really *need* to replace my Ranger, and I'd like to stretch my cash, so . . . Maybe I'll be your newest fence-sitter.
I'm not sure what I'll replace my '98 Forester with, so for now I'm keeping it.
Glad to hear you liked the Liberty. I liked it too, though it's been a while. It felt taller than I'm used to, but much more refined than the XTerra, when you look at true 4x4s.
One thing tho - isn't the 4WD system part-time? That might be OK for you, seems like you could engage it when needed.
Liberty and XTerra are the trucks in this segment. Sorento is body-on-frame but it has a permanent AWD system, no low range.
Escape and Forester are car-based, quieter and more refined that those. They're also lighter and sacrifice a little bit in terms of ultimate capability off road.
-juice
-juice
I understood the Xterra to be weak, so hadn't really thought about it.
Sante Fe is unibody and AWD, basically a Sonata platform.
Sorento is body-on-frame. You get 4WD instead of AWD, also. The high-end models feature Borg Warner's TOD (torque on demand), a system you may be familiar with from the Isuzu Trooper.
I would pick the Sorento off road, but the Tucson on road. That's their new small SUV based on the Elantra.
Tucson is almost as big as the Santa Fe inside, but smaller outside, it's just more space efficient. It's lighter, too.
Santa Fe is about to be replaced, so I'd wait to see the new one first.
-juice
-mike
The Unlimited is a Wrangler and so not as refined as the Liberty, but it feels more like the Liberty in on-road handling than the SWB Wranglers.
I wish my other half would have been willing to consider the Sorento - it looked like it offered a fair amount and was priced right.
We rented an Xterra for a weekend this spring and I thought it was very comfortable. It didn't seem weak in town or on the level highway, but the tranny did seem to hunt more than I liked going up the Grapevine. The one we had was hard to get into gear - the switch that releases the tranny when you step on the brake wasn't working right, but I think this reflects how poorly rental vehicles are treated, rather than a flaw in the Xterra's design.
-mike
and I went and test drove the Subaru Forester 2.5X, Outback 2.5I, the Jeep Liberty (again) and the Suzuki XL-7.
Okay, first of all, I tested the Suzuki because the Jeep dealer was also the Suzuki dealer, and I ended up with a guy who very clearly knew more about the Suzuki, so after the Liberty drive, he asked me to drive the XL-7. More on that later.
Second of all, these were all automatic transmissions, not extensively documented experiences, and so, while driven over the same route, surely Your Mileage May Vary.
I started by driving the Forester X. Seemed okay to me. Just felt a little cheap in design in the interior, but nothing I couldn’t live with. Space-wise it was okay, very comparable to the Liberty. I found the seating position comfortable. I drove it, and it seemed surprisingly rough in ride quality, actually, with the bumps and rough road very much felt. The engine seemed a little weak and pressing the accelerator didn’t always get an immediate response. It handled nicely, though the steering did seem a bit over-boosted.
I then drove the Outback 2.5i. Even with the same cubic feet of storage, the cargo area would be much more useful for me, being wider and longer. The interior design seemed very nice, I liked it a lot, with the exception of the center console location and size (to far back, too low). The ride seemed very nice, and it didn’t feel like it leaned at all in the corners. The steering didn’t seem over-boosted, but maybe I had gotten used to the Forester steering and the Outback’s was the same. Even with the same engine as that in the Forester, the acceleration seemed nice and linear. It wasn’t powerful, but that’s probably for the best with a leadfoot like me. It was certainly adequate so that I think I’d be comfortable with a merge-onto-the-highway situation. Actually, the Outback seems to fit the bill quite nicely, fit-and-finish, handling, and space-wise. The BIG PROBLEM for me was that, even with the seat alllll the way back, the dead pedal for my left foot was just too far forward, or something. I just felt like my leg was bent awkwardly, and even in the ten minute test drive I felt like my knee was getting sore. I don’t know if maybe I would get used to that - otherwise the car seemed great and a good match for me.
I then went to the Jeep dealer down the road. I took the Liberty over the same test route as I took the Subies. I would say that the ride was firm and I could feel the bumps certainly more than the Outback, but they seemed definitely more muted than the Forester. On the more heavily traveled four-lane road, I certainly felt the expansion joints or imperfections very clearly, which I could picture getting old after a while. Finally, it really was affected by the wind gusts, pushed around by them. I really enjoyed the responsive steering - seems perfect to me - and I definitely appreciate the off-the-line grunt of the gas-guzzling V6. I’m not so thrilled about giving up the AWD of the Subies for the part-time 4x4. I did find that the speedometer design that bothered me before wasn’t a problem driving at night the way it is lit, and when I had the interior lights on only ("daylight"), the design actually didn’t bother me much anymore. I did figure out how to easily remove the headrests on the rear seats . . . the salesman who took me for the test drive a couple of days ago just didn’t know what he was doing.
Since my salesman clearly knew the Suzukis better than the Jeeps, he wanted me to try the XL-7, so I did, and here’s what I thought: Longer and therefore more cargo room, but the rear seats when folded are at a higher level than the luggage area, so that doesn’t create particularly useful space. The suspension seemed soft compared to the other three, so going over certain bumps felt like a rocking boat, but the set-up also meant that it rode really smoothly on highway-type road. On the back roads I found that even with the four wheel drive engaged road that hadn’t affected the Liberty unsettled the XL-7, with it sliding sideways a bit because of certain bumps (may have just moved a lot on the suspension). It was a bit weak accelerating, but not too bad. The instrument lights varied in intensity as I adjusted the dimmer, but then would jump to a high intensity after a certain point . . . maybe it was just that particular vehicle’s problem, but that bugged me. Finally, low-speed steering required a large amount of wheel-cranking to get a turn of the wheels when I parallel parked it. In all, as I said to the salesman, “a loser.” I am a model of tact, aren’t I?
In all of the vehicles I adjusted the driver’s seat to where I’d be comfortable, then sat in the rear seat behind the driver seat. I have somewhat long legs, and I still felt comfortable in the rear of all of them. May not be luxurious, but not uncomfortable.
So, in the end: I want to drive another Forester to see if the ride quality was just a fluke in the one I had; I want to rent an Outback to see if the driving position would really bother my left leg; and I want to rent a Liberty to see if the ride quality would actually bother me enough to outweigh the fun I have driving it. In other words, I’m still on The Fence.
And since The Fence is not very expensive, I’ll take my time leaving it.
I never looked at the Suzuki, but your opinion pretty much backed up the reviews I read of it.
I'm so short that I couldn't reach the OB's left foot rest, though it was perfect for my husband, who's not quite 6 foot tall.
I wonder if the suspension is different in the Forester XT than in the Forester X - Juice, do you know? The reason I wonder is that my reaction the first time I drove the Forester (a non-turbo model) was the same as yours, but when I went back a year (or more) later, I didn't notice it much at all with the XT (I really do have a need for more power, so the XT was a very good choice for me). In fact, if the dealers here would have offered better deals, or if I lived on the east coast, I could be driving one right now.
And its possible it'll be in our driveway in a couple of years, when my hubby gets around to replacing the '98 Wrangler Sport. Next car is totally his choice, since I now have my soft top Unlimited. Well, up to a point. Unless he wants to drive all the time it has to be something I can drive!
I drive my XT for business use which includes being able to get to / on rough construction sites. I checked out a lot of vehicles before my purchase, including the Liberty, but the XT was the best suited to satisfy my needs from a performance standpoint as well as its capability to get me where I need to go - & back out.
I researched all very carefully and drove each multiple times before eventually buying a 2005 Forester LL Bean (which is essentially an XS). I live in the Cleveland area so snow is a factor, but I mostly commute on interstates and a little off-roading.
The Outback was really nice but a little too pricey for my purposes (about $5K more) and probably not as good off-road due to the long overhangs front and rear.
The Liberty would be my choice if I was going to do extensive off roading, but on the highway it seems a little tippy and rough for my commute.
One factor I haven't seen mentioned here is that the Forrester comes with very marginal tires as original equipment (Geolandar H/T G900) which does have an impact on ride and traction. This may be what you were feeling on the test drive. The XT may have different tires, but I'm not sure on that.
Why Subaru would put such inferior tires on this vehicle is a mystery too me. Out of 68 tires rated on Tirerack's customer survey, these came in 55th. See
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?typ- e=HAS
for details.
The Hyundai Tucson also looks promising but it came out too late and I didn't drive it, although the Santa Fe was respectable as well.
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david6: that Forester might have had too much pressure in the tires. They tend to only deflate them at delivery.
The X and XT have the same suspension, even tires.
-juice
I really struggled with this decision, and truth be told I would have preferred to have bought the 05 Subaru Outback XT or H6 wagon, but could not justify the additional $8K+ and much higher care payments.
I originally test drove the 04 Tribute several months ago, and was not nearly as impressed as the ride that the 05 offered. A few things that I noted were the new placement of the shifter (hated the 04's stalk shifter!), and much quieter ride. The interior is not quite on par with the Outback (as it probably should not be due to the difference in price), but is better than most that I drove. The radio is actually pretty good, and I thought the acceleration and braking were above average.
Had a great dealer experience and they actually gave me a very good price on my trade-in (although it took me going back and forth about 4 times). Bought the Tribute at Browns Mazda in Alexandria VA, and negotiated the price via the Internet beforehand. I think this made a big difference
My thoughts on this thread are this:
If you have 30K to spend, get the Outback, but if not, the Tribute/Escape are bargains for all of the features that they offer. The Forester was a strong contender as well, but both me and my wife did not like the exterior styling as much as the Tribute, and felt the interior was just slightly better (again, could not justify the additional cost of the Forester, when the Mazda had as many, or more features for less money).
Other thoughts: the VUE was not even close to be a contender because of the electric steering. What was GM thinking? I also thought the Mazda's interior and road noise was far superior (and yes this was a 05 V6 VUE that I drove). Same with the Equinox.. Hated the steering and thought the engine was loud..
Liked the Honda CRV, but had a TERRIBLE dealer experience at several local Honda dealers. The CRV also did not have as many features as the Tribute, and the seats were uncomfortable.
I would be happy to share more thoughts with anybody who would like them, and wish all of you luck who are facing a similar decision..
Your going to find people that just plain hate Fords/Mazdas. These are great vehicles and are reliable. Check www.msn.com and visit their reliabiltiy area. Even the 01 Escape rates very well for longterm reliability. Zoom, Zoom!
There's no speedometer cable, it's electronic, so maybe with the ignition off it won't accumulate miles? I don't know.
I can believe the tranny woes because early on they were using the Ford CD4E tranny that was extremely problematic on the Mazda 626 4 cylinders.
I owned a 626 (not with that tranny) and recall in that thread there was about 2 tranny failures per week or so.
So I could not believe Ford used the same tranny for the heavier Escape/Tribute, coupled up to more power. They did claim it was improved.
What they really need to do is put the JATCO 5 speed auto from the MPV in there, or better yet the new 6 speed auto that just made its way into the Mazda6s.
-juice
I agree with you on the maintenance front, I always follow scheduled maintenance and was excited about Mazda's warranty 4yr, 50K miles.
It's funny, because I was excited about the new VUE (Honda engine and tranny), but when I drove it, I was not impressed with the interior. The major issue with the VUE that I had was the horrible electric steering. Could not get over that, and I was also amazed at the message boards with all the unsatisfied VUE owners. At that point I dropped it from my list of choices.
Escape/Tribute was voted best small SUV by numerous magazines and car sites, and I was very impressed with this vechicle after the first test drive. I have come to the conclusion that no car is perfect, and that you have to take your time, research and most important test drive vehicles at least two times.
Zoom zoom!
Fine engine, though.
-juice
Good luck with the next purchase.
-juice
I own both an 01 Escape and an 04 Tribute. No problems.
That said, if you feel like you have a lemon with the 02 Escape you should definitely look at your options, although I am not sure a Hyundai will be any more reliable than the Ford. For what it is worth, I just bought an 05 Tribute and did as much homework as I could as far as reliability and value go. I liked the Sante Fe on paper, but the exterior styling is just a little too over the top for me, and the interior was not as nice as the Tribute's (my opinion).
I would not base my purchase on warranty alone. I would drive them both back to back and then decide. If warranty is still a concern, you can always purchase the Tribute (4yr, 50K warranty) and then buy an extended warranty down the road for your own piece of mind. My Mazda dealer had a deal that if you purchase the extended warranty and then do not use it, you get a refund back. Personally, I do not believe in extended warranties, so I passed, but some people like having that security. I also have found that you can usually get a better deal on an extended warranty outside of the dealer at the time of purchase. Good luck, and let us know what you purchase. Oh one more thing, you may want to look at resale value. Although the Hyundai is ranked pretty high on initial quality (the key word there is initial), they have a poor history of reliability down the road and resale value. I almost bought a Suabaru Outback due to this very issue vs. the Mazda, but with the incentives and deal I was getting my monthly payments were significantly lower (and I figure I could take the difference between payments and invest the money, thereby making up the resale difference between the Subaru and the Mazda). Time will tell if purchasing the Mazda was the right decision, but the main thing here is feeling comfortable with your decision at the end of the day.
Pardon my skepticism but a manager of a Ford service dept would be hard pressed to buy anything but a Ford due to the following:
a. Ford employee discount
b. Guaranteed hassle free maintenance (he's the svc mgr for Pete’s sake!)
c. Wouldn't be able to look his customer's (or co-workers for that matter) in the eye if he didn't own/drive a Ford himself
-Frank
I'd imagine he would not be paying full price for service or repairs, either (if anything at all).
So an insider isn't really a good reference point. I do believe that he trusts the car enough to get one for his wife, sure.
-juice
Well no kidding! But he does have other choices on the lot and still chose the Escape over them. So there is value in his/her opinion.
Just don't ask a Ford service person to help you choose between a Ford and a Chevy.
-Frank
Is the Tribute the most reliable vehicle on the road? No, I do not believe so (but then again, my co-workers new at purchase BMW has been back to the dealer more than my Nissan Altima over the past several years, and one time had to be towed!). But it certainly is not the most problematic, and is a good balance between value and cost, and has a solid warranty. From a safety perspective, for about 22K, I was able to buy a sporty (05 S model, with AWD, leather, 6 disc changer, sunroof, side curtain airbags) that has all the options that I wanted with great safety features for a low car payment every month. I really wanted a 2005 Outback XT Limited, but there was almost a 10K difference in price that I could just not justify. There are many options out there, but I personally feel that the Escape/Tribute are great value for what you get. Just my .02 cents...
I don't think one purchase means anything, to be honest. Even less since he's basically in the Ford extended family.
-juice
Oh man do I second that! She keeps wanting an Accord for some reason (don't get me wrong, it's not a bad car). Not because she likes it mind you, but because she's always wanted one. Ever since she was 16.
Then she sits in one at last year's auto show and hated it. But she still wants one. Go figure.
She too is driving our '05 black on black Escape Limited and really likes it. We plan on keeping this one for 5-7 years so I still have time to change her mind.
Steve, Host
Then I can go buy a Mustang, put Chevy Aerio badges on it, and tell her it only cost $9000 to buy. "Let's buy two" she'll say!
OK. Dream sequence is over.