Snow/Ice winter tires

dudleyr · November 2005

I have used the Artic Alpin, original Blizzak, Yokahama guardex, Dunlop DS-1, and now have the X-ice. The X-ice are probably the best all around of the bunch. For pure snow and ice though, the Dunlop are also excellent. The Yokahama is good all around. The Artic Alpin had great fore aft traction but was poor laterally. The Blizzak and Dunlop are both squirmy on dry pavement.

widriver2 · December 2005

After reading the CR review, I'm leaning towards getting Hakkapeliitta 2 for our Toyota Sienne mini van. Where can I purchase these? May I ask at what price? The quotes I've gotten so far seem to be much higher than the $94 listed in CR.

I may end up with the X-Ice instead if Nokians can't be had for a good price Since I live in Wiscosin, we don't get a lot of deep snow ( lots of cold weather, but we're on the West side of lake michigan so we don't get much snow) and I'm concerend with dry and wet handling as well as icy roads. Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Karl

dudleyr · December 2005

Just put the X-ice on my Sienna before the recent blizzard (SD). They did very well driving through blinding snow with 45 mph winds (gustomg to 55), and also did well when the storm first started out as freezing rain. After the storm the vehicle did well around town through large drifts of snow. Did have to turn traction control off once when it bogged down in a foot of densely packed wind driven snow. It started right up with the trac off - sometimes some wheel spin helps especially with snow tires.

The X-ice seem fine on the highway at 80 mph when the roads are clear - not much different from the standard Dunlop SP-4000's.

BTW we bought the vehicle in WI at Jon Lancaster.

pathstar1 · December 2005

Go to http://www.nokiantires.com/newsite/homeF.cfm and click on "Dealer Locator".

sequoiasoon · December 2005

try here http://www.tirefactory.net/ free shipping is a bonus!

Also read here http://www.snowtire.info/ they LOVED the HAKK 2's as having awesome grip. I can also attest that the WR's do very well in snow and all othet winter conditions while providing great dry and wet traction for all the rest of the time. Not as good in deep snow but a great tire for most winter conditions.

wai · December 2005

What is the traction difference between a snow tire like X-ice and ultra high performance A/S like Pilot sport A/S when driving on less than 6 inches snow? I would consider whether to buy A/S or snow tire this Winter in Delaware.
Thanks for your help first.

shipo · December 2005

"What is the traction difference between a snow tire like X-ice and ultra high performance A/S like Pilot sport A/S when driving on less than 6 inches snow?"

Like everything else in life, "it depends." If you are going to compare a car that has 235/35 R18 Pilot Sport A/S tires that replaced its OEM summer performance rubber of the same size with an aftermarket winter tire set of say 205/55 R16, there will be a very substantial difference in the cars' ability to plow through six inches of snow. Why? Well, two reasons really:

1) The winter tire has a different rubber compound and tread pattern, both of which are optimized for snowy/slushy/icy conditions.
2) The narrower tire has lower rolling resistance when plowing through deep snow and slush because it is cutting a narrower path. Effectly this equates to a longer/narrower contact patch which benefits longitudnal traction requirements (accelerating and braking) at the nominal expense of lateral traction requirements (handling).

As for that I'd do if I was living in Delaware, hmmmm, I'd probably opt for the All-Seasons if I felt that I could simply stay where I was if the weather happened to get really bad on the odd day or two per year.

Best Regards,
Shipo

modock · December 2005

Just wondering if anyone has heard of these and if anyone has used them. I was thinking about them as the only days my allseasons seem not to have enough grip is when it is really bad and I would not be going over 30 mph anyway.

morphie · December 2005

We have used Michelin Arctic-Alpin (now X-Ice), Blizzak WS-50's and Dunlop M3's. The Blizzak's are on my daughter's 2004 Civic EX Sedan; she goes to school in Maine.

As you are probably aware, snow tires fall into two (2) categories: performance/snow and ice /snow. The WS-50 and X-Ice fall into the latter category; The M3 and Michelin Pilot Alpin the former. With "performance" you give up some snow/ice ability in exchange for dry road capability; the reverse is true for the other types.

Being a typical paranoid parent, I put four (4) WS-50's on the Civic. Their performance was excellent in poor conditions, outperforming all wheel drive vehicles without snows. We have an Audi A6, with M3's; they are excellent on dry surfaces and quite competent in snow/ice conditions.

Since one gets an Si, in large part, for its handling competence, I suggest you try a tire like the Pilot Alpin, M3, Blizzak LM-22, or the like. You will be pleased with winter weather handling and still enjoy serious driving on dry roads.

waygrabow · December 2005

We had Blizzaks when we lived in Watertown, NY, and really were impressed with performance in bad conditions. My daughter lives in Vail, CO, and had been complaining about lack of traction with her new Goodrich Traction TAs (fwd). So we got her a set of Blizzak WS-50s; she is thrilled about the stellar performance in the snow and ice. The Traction TAs aren't bad tires; they just aren't in the same league as a dedicated winter tire for real snow and ice. We had Blizzaks on our Audi Quattro for one winter, but that was overkill. You couldn't really take advantage of all the traction available because all the other cars on the road were going so much slower that they became obstacles.

Just replaced the Michelins on my Explorer with Firestone Destination A/T tires. The Firestones were highly recommended by another internet site, and their price is reasonable. Today we had 7" of new snow (still snowing), and I had to go out to buy more gas for my snowblower. We live at 7500' altitude in snow country, so lots of people drive SUVs. I watched two SUVs in front of me slide through a stop sign where I had no trouble. I stopped to pull out a Maxima that was crosswise in the street straddling a median. Then I stopped on a steep hill to pull an Escort out of a ditch. Amazing what you can do with good tires, 4WD, and a good tow cable (anti-lock brakes and good ground clearance help also). The Destination tires are quiet on a dry highway as well as excellent in the snow.

sitcom · December 2005

I have heard different thoughts on how many tires I need to mount on a front wheel drive car. Two in front, or all around?

dudleyr · December 2005

All-around. Your back will want to pass the front if you only have snows on the front.

sitcom · December 2005

Sounds like what I have been hearing (it is a wonder that no one opinion is set on this topic) but your advice seems like the safer approach. I haven't heard any one say that I can go wrong mounting all four tires.

shipo · December 2005

"...is a wonder that no one opinion is set on this topic..."

Errr, I rather thought that there was very much a consensus that all four corners need winter tires among those who should know the truth of the matter. That of course excludes almost anybody that works in a car dealership and probably half of the folks that work in your local tire shop.

Best Regards,
Shipo

krzyss · December 2005

Krzys

dielotosblume · December 2005

Hi,

I drive a 2000 Accord and live in chilly, snowy upstate NY. I called a reputable tire store and they recommended the snow viking and quoted me $350 on the set of 4.

Everything I have read so far about these is that they are a good budget tire. That is not what I want and that doesn't seem like a budget price to me!

The dealer recommended Kelly magna Grips and Hankooks for around the same price! I feel as if I am being taken for some kind of ride! No one has much that is good to say about those either!

I am truly willing to pay over $400. What I am not willing to have happen is to get mediocre tires that poop out on me the minute I get to a snowy hill. I am really accident prone

Any suggestions? Am I wrong to feel suspiscious?

Thank you,

Dielotosblume

PS: those quotes were for the tires installed and without road hazzard warranties

sitcom · December 2005

As you imply, truth is certainly what seems to be shown when you ask anyone who will not gladly take a check for mounting the tires. I got my tires through discount direct and, to their credit, they were the initial opinion on the value of getting 4 tires-but encouraged me to ask around. Your right, it seems that the least knowledgable are the tire shops and dealers. I went with a Hankook and got them mounted the day before our first snow and am amazed at the difference. They seem to give excellent traction. I have a Mazda Protoge, and without the snow tires it went great straight through snow with regular tires, now I can even turn!

nobody3 · December 2005

Hi, I hear so much about the winter tires but I don't see any real evidence in numbers. Tires manufacturers are very silent about the numbers. Only thing I see is winter tire's traction should be just 10% better than "Standard All Season tires" (whatever the standard tire is). I know UTQG traction guide is useless in cold weather since the test is done at higher temperature. (Actually RMA was objecting to the need of getting UTQG numbers for winter tires since winter tires generally perform bad at higher temperatures) Even tirerack tests are among different brands of the winter tires rather between 'All Season' and 'Winter tires'.

Has there been any test performed in the last 3 years to compare all season tires against winter tires?

Any pointer will be much appreciated.

shipo · December 2005

There are at least two relevant tests that I can think of. The first was conducted back in 1999 and I have a link to it on my computer at home so I will post it later. That first test compared two Mercedes-Benz E320s and two Audi A6s (one 2WD and one AWD for each pair of siblings), with a set of All-Season tires and a set of Winter tires for each car. While somewhat dated, it is a fine test nonetheless.

The newer (from a year or so back) test IIRC used the RWD Chrysler 300C against its sibling donning AWD hardware and while I don't remember the specifics of the tires compared, it was very illuminating as well. If I can find the link to that I will post it as well.

Having said all of that, I've driven both types of tires (winter and all-season) in snow and I can tell you that the difference is so astounding that I was converted from someone who used to post things like, "All-Season tires are more than capable of dealing with more than 80% of what Mother Nature throws our way..." to, "Yikes, I cannot believe I've waited this long to try winter tires. I'll never drive my cars in the snow without them again." What is more interesting is that my conversion from All-Season tire bigot to Winter tire bigot took place in all of 100', which happens to be the distance from my garage to the street (with a 9% grade in between).

Best Regards,
Shipo

nobody3 · December 2005

Thank you. I am interested in the recent comparision since I think there have been big improvements in both winter tires and all season tires since late 90s. Winter tires have better speed rating and they are not just chuncky tread pattern of the past. Similarly all season tires are not just M+S (aggressive tread pattern) any more and they seem to have better grip due to the introduction of silica, better rubber compound etc.,.
Looking forward to ....
Thanks again.

shipo · December 2005

Well, I found the more recent article and geez, I musta had a senior moment, not a thing to do with winter tires. It was more of a comparo of sorts dealing with which end of the car is best suited to put power down on the pavement. Anyway, here is that link:

http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/2004/9/push_pull/index.phtml

Then there is the older article, which is still very much valid, just a generation behind (ie. All-Season tires have improved to the point where they are probably 9/10's of the old winter tires, while the "snows" have improved to the point where they can gain traction on glare ice).

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=3888

Best Regards,
Shipo

sequoiasoon · December 2005

You should also read the stuff at Tirerack. Consumer Reports did some testing last year and this year also comparing different snows as well as the all season vs. winter tire testing.

dudleyr · December 2005

The snows are just plain better. I got them on my minivan late this year, and I had to try 4 different routs to pick up my kids from school (could not get up the hills). Put on the snows right after that and had no problems going anywhere.

This is with snows that are older than my all seasons by a few years. This is their 6th winter (about 6-7,000 miles per winter)

bobny11580 · December 2005

Dear Shipo,

Thanks for sharing the two articles. I was rather surprised by the results. Winter tires seem to give up too much in dry conditions to be warranted in mild climates. I live on Long Island and probably get over 90% of my winter days on dry pavement. So I think that four winter tires may be overkill for those 10-20 days of snow/ice.

The AWD vs. front drive issue that surprised me was stopping. AWD's added weight increases stopping distances.

Front drive vs. rear drive: With modern technology such as traction and stability control there is really no difference. Interesting point.

Thanks again Shipo!

Bob

krzyss · December 2005

Consider snow/winter tires instead of ice/witer tires.
Snow/witer are also called Euro as they are H or V rated and give up ultimate ice/snow traction for better dry/cold handling.
Blizzak LM-22 or 25 instead of WS-50 or Revo(?)
Dunlop Winter Sport M3 instead of Dunlop Graspic DS-2
etc

Krzys

shipo · December 2005

"Winter tires seem to give up too much in dry conditions to be warranted in mild climates."

That is one of the areas where some winter tires have improved the most. Tires like the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2 are not only speed rated ("H" rating, up to 128 mph) but they handle better than probably 95% of all of the All-Season tires out there as well.

Michelin Arctic Alpin tires on my previous car and while it goes without saying that those tires didn't handle as well as my wider/lower profile summer performance tires, my bet is that they were every bit as capable and quiet as any typical All-Season tire.

Best Regards,
Shipo

nobody3 · December 2005

Shipo,

Thanks for the article. It was a very good one.

However, there are a few things I would like to point out.

1. Even though the article is outdated, it has lot of useful information.
2. The tests were performed only on snow since they could not get good 'control test' on ice.
3. The intent of the test was to compare 'AWD on stock tires' against 2WD with winter tires. The question I have is difference between good all season tires and good winter tires. Unfortunately Michelin Energy MXV, the stock tires used in the test are the worst in the class. I don't expect much from stock tires anyway especially if it is a performance tire. (Note: Typically performance tires are not good winter tires)
I calculated percentage improvements for each of these test cases but am not giving them here for lack of space. It was typically 10 to 15% (min 2% and max 35%). Considering the stock tire it is not much in my opinion.

Michelin's own ratings are as follows:

----------------------Wet Winter Handling UTQG
Energy MXV--------6/10 7/10 6/10 340AA
Energy MXV S8---9/10 10/10 8/10 440AA
Pilot MXM4---------10/10 10/10 10/10 300AA
Pilot Alpin PA2----N/A N/A N/A N/A

See how bad MXVs are.

The links are:
http://www.michelinman.com/catalog/index_2.html
http://www.michelinman.com/catalog/index_3.html

I am not sure why I should go for non-rated Pilot Alpin PA2 winter tires when there are good all season H rated tires like Pilot MXM4,
My best guess is that the difference between Pilot Alpin PA2 and Pilot MXM4 will be at best 10% in severe winter conditions even if I can ignore Pilot Alpin PA2's poor dry pavement performance.

My intent is not to question anybody's wisdom but to convince myself.
Best regards.

widriver2 · December 2005

Hi,

It really doesn't cost much in the long run. Remember, the miles you put on the winter tires are miles you DON'T put on your summer or A/S tires. Sure, the wheels will be an extra expense, but you can get steel wheels at a very low price online. Mine were $44 each.
My dealer has promised to mount and dismount and rotate them for free each year, so there's no ongoing expense, plus I am saving money I would normally spend to rotate my summer tires. It saves me $ if I get in an accident. Yes, you may say snow tires wear out quickly, but so do high performance A/S. Actually, I'm in my 4th winter for my Dunlop Winter Sport tires and may get 5 out of them with 8/32 of tread left.

By the way, I think Tire Rack had a comparison test...

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/2vs4_01.jsp

The test is not current and I think the link to the results are gone... I may ask them to send me the results.
I may even have it somewhere myself.
You don't mention the car you drive or where you live, but if you're interested in Pilot MXM4, it must not be a cheap car. You put an investment in your auto and now it's really only the steel wheels that is the extra long run expense and those will save your alloy ones some harsh abuse.

BTW, here's a couple of more articles from C & D
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=3467

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=3479

from car talk the radio show
http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/WinterDriving/

sequoiasoon · December 2005

Bob,
Welcome from a fellow LI resident. Don't what kind of vehicle you are using but a great tire for around here is the Nokian WR (available at STS) It's an H-rated tire with a 50k treadwear warranty, thet is GREAT wet and dry and happens to be real good in the snow and has the severe snow rating. Many friends and family run them all year, I have them as my spring, summer, winter but of course had to try them in snow myself a couple times. Driving on LIE rush hour you won't notice much except when it's crappy if you get real winter tires. What they will provide is better traction to stop in time and/or move out of the way from the guy behind that can't stop. In yesterday's morning snow I was able to stop, start and drive around the 4 cars and 3 SUV's stuck on a very small hill with a light/intersection at the top. It was 6:30 AM and the cars had packed the snow into a nice layer of ice. A couple of them slid into each other to add to the headache. I currently have the Nokian Q studless ice tire on my Corrolla which was on yesterday also. I drive further north a lot so go with the better traction for winter. My in-laws have the WR on there CRV and commented the same way yesterday how great they were as they saw everybody sliding around but they weren't.

The "newer" type of winter tires with the softer compounds are much better all around than the "older" hard rubber very open block ones. My tires and rims were less than what my insurance deductible is and I get normally get at least 4-5 winters out of each set (and rims of course are still good). For mine and my families safety and less than what I would need to pay for repairs it's a worthwile investment to me, even if it was only 5 days. I've lost 0 mileage difference, they ride great, of course they don't hold the exit ramps at 60 mph like the WR's but have no problem at 50-55 mph.

nobody3 · December 2005

Hello,

Thanks to everyone for their replies.

I agree with your comment on life of tires and even cost of rims is not an issue. However, all the articles you pointed out invariably compare stock high/performance tires against winter tires. Stock tires Potenza RE040 225/45YR-17 Potenza RE92, Goodyear Eagle GS-D 215/ 45ZR-17s, Michelin Energy MXV all are high performance tires. In my opinion that kind of comparison is very misleading. I agree most high performance tires have very low snow traction (as low as 35% of a standard all season tires as per one article). It makes perfect sense for sports/performance car drivers to have two sets of wheels so that they can enjoy the best of both worlds (summer and winter). I dont want to see a sports car to be bogged down by all season tires in the summer and vice versa.

1. Stock tires are generally not that great. .
2. Replace stock tires, if possible.
3. Not all All Season tires are the same.
4. Tires can be compared only within a category. For e.g. High performance tires with 10/10 winter rating can be worse than 8/10 winter rating of a touring or regular passenger tire.
5. High performance tires sacrifice snow and wet traction for better handling in the summer.
6. Dont mix tires (specifically, never go for 2 winter tires).
7. On climbing hills and straight line acceleration AWD vehicles even with stock tires do better than 2WD vehicles on winter tires (ref: C&D article)
8. On braking, stock/performance tires perform poorly when compared to winter tires. It doesnt matter whether it is AWD or 2WD.
9. When compared to a typical passenger all season tire, winter tires fair better on ice/snow but perform poorly (relatively) on dry pavements

I am just curious to find out how much the gain is and what the sacrifice is. My best guess is it is less than 10%. But I am not sure.

Knowing that would help most people to judge whether to go for winter tires (or not) depending on their local climate. As we know, the climate various a lot from state to state and sometimes even within a state. No one size fits all and everyones situation is very different.

For example:

What to do when you go for a new car?
What to do if you are stuck with an existing car?
What is the best solution for other vehicles like family sedans, minivans, SUVs, AWDs, FWD, RWD etc?
What is the best solution if there are just 3 winter storms in a year?
What to do if one makes just 10 trips to sky areas in a year?

I am simply trying to be an informed customer and trying to find an objective answer.

Thanks!

Note: I dont own an expensive sports/performance car. I was referring to Michelin Pilot and MXV tires since they were the stock tires used on the test vehicles viz. AUDI Quattro and Mercedes 4MATIC. If I have more money I would spend it on good tires or AWDs before buying a sports car. But thats just me.

krzyss · December 2005

are not high performance tires but grand touring all season and should have decent snow traction.

Krzys

dudleyr · December 2005

I don't judge my snows by the percentage gain I get in braking. I judge them by their ability they have to stop the vehicle. If the difference between feeling out of control and feeling in control is only about 10%, then that is all that I need to gain from my tires.

Add 10 hp to a 200 hp vehicle and many people think that is great (only a 5% diff).

Look at Consumer Reports. Sometimes they mention the diff between the tires by using the number of ft to brake on an ice rink. In their current issue they find way more than 10% difference just between the snow tires. The worst took 36 ft to stop from 10 mph, and the best (with studs) took 20 ft. To me that is a very very significant difference. Now throw in an all season tire and the difference will be greater still.

-Dudley

nobody3 · December 2005

Hello Kryss,

High performance tires are generally wide low profile tires meant for big engine sports/performance cars. Handling on dry pavements takes priority than wet or snow traction. Even in that category there are some tires with good winter traction like Pilot MXM4 (but not Pilot MXM) but still inferior to passenger car all season tires. Touring is somewhere in between regular passenger tires and performance tires. It is all buyer beware.

Thanks

widriver2 · December 2005

"I am not sure why I should go for non-rated Pilot Alpin PA2 winter tires when there are good all season H rated tires like Pilot MXM4, "

Have you read the survery results of this tire at the tire rack? Snow traction is a lowly 4.4.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+HX+MXM- 4

You're going to get way more than a 10% improvement with this tire. These tires are again a compromise. You're argument is
a) you lose too much dry road performance
b) gains for snow tires are only when compared to high performance A/S

Well, if you don't have a high performance A/S you don't lose much of anything on the road. There are H rated snow tires and they don't feel any different to me on plowed roads. Check out the reviews on TR for Dunlop Wintersports.
The Pilot tire you mentioned as a performance grand touring is trying to be BOTH a performance tire AND long lasting on the hot pavement. Both of those factors work against working well in the snow and ice.

krzyss · December 2005

this 4 at the end indicated all season.

So I should have written MXV4 and not MXV.

Krzys

PS It is not only profile of the tire that makes them high performnce but construction and materials too.

nobody3 · December 2005

Hi Dudleyr and Widriver2,

Thanks for the reference to CR report. I have not looked at it but I am sure it will be much interesting. Unfortunately, it is for subscribers only.

I agree there will be noticeable improvement with winter tires on snow/ice but at the same time winter tires lose some traction on wet/dry pavements. But the question is, how much? Under what situation the trade off is worth it?

As pointed out correctly by widriver2, even though Pilot-MXM4 is rated highly (winter traction 10/10) by Michelin among its high/performance tires it has received very poor results in tirerack survey. But again, Michelins ratings are not to be used to compare against different class of tires and tirerack results are not scientific test results, for that matter, they are not even scientific surveys (we dont know what they were compared against and so forth)

The whole point is, lack of good information and guidelines on winter/snow tires - when to choose and when not to choose. Even though M+S rating has some guidelines based on tread pattern unfortunately there is no test-based guidelines for all season tires and almost anything flies. Many of these so called all season tires are not good enough for severe winter situation in upper North America. I believe that is the whole reason for inventing winter tires. But without UTQG or similar ratings it is hard to say how much dry/wet traction will be lost. None of the 20 or so winter tires I looked at had UTQG rating. Hope it has nothing to do with not being able to meet dry/wet traction requirement. As a matter of fact, RMA is requesting NHSTA to exempt winter tires from UTQG rating. (Note: Nokian-WR is an all weather tire that has severe snow emblem but Im not sure if it has any UTQG ratings). Canadian Transport (CTA) website has a list of
winter tires but nothing about winter tire standards. Unfortunately we may have to just use our gut feeling rather any test results when it comes to deciding whether to go for winter tires or not.

Two all season tires catch my attention. 1)Goodyear Assurance tripleTred and 2) Yokohama AVID TRZ. I wish they can be thrown into the test pool along with other true blue winter tires and see how they fair. Just a thought! I am not hopeful it is ever going to happen.

But I can wish you all
Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and most of all, Safe Driving
and sincerely hope that it will come true.

Thanks

explorer05 · December 2005

my wife and i have an 04 higlander with DMZ2's and an 05 explorer with DMZ3's...what a differnce to the stock tires..night and day

sequoiasoon · December 2005

My Nokian WR's have a 400 AA rating on the side if it helps you. The Hakkapelitta SUV's and Q's don't have any rating that I see. From all I've read on many sites the winter tires do not have the UTQG because of the softer rubber compunds WILL wear out pretty quickly in the heat of summer. I've also many excellent performance tires with a very low treadwear rating (but high traction and temp) that wear out very quickly also. It's one of the trade offs. Myself I run the winter tires for the extra safety margin and remove them normally early April before it get's too hot. I'm my 5th season on the Q's (but this will be it, they have probably almost 25k on them, and the third season on the SUV's which still have a lot of life left, only have 10k max.

widriver2 · December 2005

Hi,

After reading CR's report, I ordered Nokian's Hakka 2 for our new van. I wanted an all-around tire that handled was good on dry and wet pavement as well as ice and snow. I've also heard they had very long tread life for winter tires.
Unfortunately, they were temporarily out of them and offered me the RSI. Any experience with either one?

I am aware the Hakka 2 is a studded tire, but CR says it works well without studs.

sequoiasoon · December 2005

Sorry can't help. What I do know is that the Q is discontinued and the RSI is it's replacement. Some of the rally drivers from the snowtireinfo link who swore by the Q's were very happy with the added grip from the RSI's. For next season the Corlla will probably get the RSI's unless they have a newer model by then. Most of Nokians "new and improved" versions were just that from my experience (hakk 10 to hakk 1, NRW to WR, and from test results hakk 1 to hakk 2)

nobody3 · December 2005

Thanks for the info on Nokian WR all weather plus tires. Good to know that there is an option available for those who want to use decent winter tires without having to worry about dry/wet traction (as well as the hassle of changing and storing the extra wheels). I agree this may not be an ideal solution for all. There may be situations, like yours, where it may be necessary to go for winter-only tires.

rs_petty · December 2005

In looking for new tires I found this particular model has the same "snow flake on the mountain" symbol as the Nokian WR. Anyone happen to have these that could report? Only a few reviews on Tirerack.

shipo · December 2005

We had just over a foot of snow on Friday, and as I was scheduled to drive from southern New Hampshire to NYC that morning, I had a chance to perform a few tire tests in about six inches of snow before I left. Said test was needless to say subjective, but nevertheless, illuminating for me.

What was tested? Four FWD cars, one with Michelin X-Ice, one with Goodyear Assurance TripleTred, One with Michelin Arctic Alpin and one with Bridgestone Turanza LS-T all-seasons.

Where was the test? Up our unplowed driveway (9% grade) and then around the unplowed cul-de-sac as fast as I could. ;-)

The vehicle with the Bridgestones only made it about half way up the driveway before all forward momentum was lost. Back in the garage for that one.

The vehicle with the Goodyears spun a tire here and there on the way up but managed nicely enough. Once at the top and heading around the cul-de-sac, I was able to get up to about 8 mph before terminal understeer set in. All in all, the car was driveable assuming that I took it easy.

Both cars with the Michelin Winter tires sprinted up the driveway (relatively speaking), however, the X-Ice seemed to have a significantly better launch, and once in the cul-de-sac, both tires acquitted themselves quite nicely, once again with the X-Ice (maintaining about 14 mph) edging the older and more worn Arctic Alpins (which were able to maintain about 12-13 mph).

Due to the specific needs of the weekend I was forced to drive the car with the Goodyear Assurance TripleTreds to NYC, through the heart of the storm no less. At its worst, we were in stop and go traffic (mostly stopped) while climbing the hills in western Massachusetts due to the number of jack-knifed semis and stuck cars (it never ceases to amaze me just how many folks will venture out on a day like that with wide summer performance tires on their AMG). Being a veteran of several years worth of driving on winter tires, I did miss the extra stability offered by such tires; however, if one MUST buy all-season tires, the Goodyear Assurance TripleTreds are easily the best ones Ive ever driven in the white stuff.

Best Regards,
Shipo

nobody3 · December 2005

Shipo,

Thanks for sharing your experience. It is quite interesting.

Any specific reason why all your cars are FWD as opposed to AWD. Just wondering!

It looks like Nokian WR all season tire with severe snow emblem is another good compromise.

shipo · December 2005

Glad I could be of help. ;-)

FWIW, I'm not really a fan of AWD cars of any type, I just think that the increase in weight and drive train drag with the resultant reduction in fuel economy is too much of a negative for me. My personal preference would be a nice sporty RWD car with two sets of rubber, nice fat summer tires mounted on nice wide rims, and a set of narrower/higher profile winter rubber mounted on a decent set of rims. I ran that configuration through the last three years and absolutely loved it. This year the rules changed for me, both economic and driving profile wise, and as such, I turned in my beloved 530i at the end if its lease. :-(

Were it that I could mix and match to build my own car, I'd probably opt for something like the new Audi A3 6-Speed with the Sport Package, but with one exception... I'd change the driven wheels from the front to the rear and then buy a set of winter rubber for it. Unfortunately such a car simply does not exist, and so for the duration of my indecision, I'm relegated to driving our old Home Depot hack, a 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan. Double :-(

At this point I'd probably even opt for an A3 2.0T 6-Speed Quattro but alas, the Quattro is only available in the 3.2 liter car, and only with an automatic tranny to boot. Triple :-(

Oh well, at least the GC has long since been paid for and has been rock solid from a reliablility perspective so getting from point A to point B is at least cheap. :P

Best Regards,
Shipo

bj02176 · December 2005

I don't think the Assurance have the snow flake on the side, I have the Fortera tiple treds with the snow flake on my Escape. In the height of the 230 pm white out on friday on rt 128 they performed pretty good. A little side to side slipping but good straight ahead traction and stopping. Much better then the Michelin LTX M&S I had previously. Don't know yet if they are as good as a real snow tire.

shipo · December 2005

The Goodyear Assurance TripleTred and the Fortera TripleTred each have the same Sun/Rain/Snowflake icon oval.

My guess after looking at the tread of the two tires side-by-side is that the Forteras might have a slight edge in the snow at the expense of being a little noisier on dry roads. That being said, on my trip from the Salem, NH area to NYC at the height of the storm on Friday, the Assurance TripleTred shod GC never put a foot wrong and was clearly one of the more capable rides out on the roads that day.

Are they as good as winter tires? Nope. Are they the best All-Season tires I've ever driven on? Yup, by far.

Best Regards,
Shipo

nobody3 · December 2005

It looks like Fortera TT (Light truck) and Assurance TT (passener car) have similar technlogy. Forterea looks more rugged though. As per GY website Fortera meets 'severe snow service requirements' but not Assurance TT even though they have the same oval symbol. Yokohoma Avid TRZ is similar but uses silica compound unlike GY. Not sure if it makes any diffrence.

These tires may be good on snow but not sure how much they are good on ice unlike the regular winter tires. (Note: GY website has both snow and ice ratings for winter tires but only snow ratings for triple tread tires.) It is always a compromise one way or the other.

I guess, AWD/RWD/FWD is a matter of personal choice. I think AWDs have an edge when it comes to climbing, engine braking and over/understeering. But for regular braking tires do matter.

Regards

rs_petty · December 2005

Thank you, sir. Exactly the kind of post that makes these boards worthwhile. Happy Holidays!

swas · December 2005

Don't even think about 2 winter tires on the front. If you only have the cash for 2, put them on the back. Yes I know, your driving wheels are on the front. When you hit the brakes, though, you will at least stop in a straight line. The tire store here (Saskatchewan) will not sell two winter tires, only in sets of 4. Having good grip on the front and poor friction on the back of a vehicle is a recipe for disaster. Buy a complete set and enjoy driving in the snow and ice..

Snow/Ice winter tires

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