Sorry for the Looooonnnngggg delay in getting back to you on this subject (original post no. 6188). I got feed up with it temporarily and didn't care to re-live the issues right away. But here it is. . . the non-Subaru mechanic replenished the differential fluid. This only helped to mask the problem, in that the thumping didn't occur unless the car had been driven for at least 1/2 hour and doing lots of very tight turning. Not yet realizing this, I dropped off my GT at the Subaru dealer in the evening for them to look at it in the morning. Of course, they test drove it and couldn't find any problem. Frustrated, and running late to pick up my daughter because I had taken the bus to and from work that day, I took the legacy GT and left. Of course, 2 days later, after I had done a bunch of errands, the thumping was back. Well, I got smarter. I took the morning off from work, drove the car for an hour, got the thumping to the point that you didn't have to be in the car to notice it, and drove it to the Subaru dealer again. This time the mechanic said "It looks like you have a problem". Go figure. Anyway, they think it is a problem with the AWD, specifically the differential so they are going to "start" by replacing the differential and seeing how things go. They ordered the parts which should be in any day now. I'll let you know how it turns out. The good news. . .the mechanic was kind enough to confirm that this fix falls under the powertrain warrenty. Good thing since I now have almost 50k miles on it and the b2b is expired (powertrain to 60k). I'll let you know how it turns out.
Well, I hope it works out to your liking. You might inquire as to whether they're going to replace the entire diff gear assembly as one unit from the factory (good) or if they're going to order lots of itty bitty parts and try to rebuild it themself (difficult, takes considerable skill, and not the best of all worlds). Either would be covered and there's ample reason to insist on the entire diff assembly being replaced. It may be best to sit back and see what happens, but just putting a bug in your ear I'd have done if you'd let us know about this the day of the dealer's "awakening" to your problem.
Just got back from the 2002 BC Road Trip. Only a short one this time, 1,757 km, and Erfie behaved perfectly towing the tent trailer. I wish it had a bit more power on long steep mountain climbs but it manages OK and keeps up with or passes trucks with campers in the back and RVs. And it's much faster than them on the switchbacks.
Arriving home we found our road being repaved and the driveway blocked by heavy equipment. So I dropped off the trailer and parked on a bit of unkempt "lawn", accessible from my neighbour's driveway. This piece of land is uneven and slopes down to the house. When I came to back the car out and park in our driveway the right rear wheel simply spun and the car didn't move an inch. The wheel was in a bit of a dip but still firmly on the ground, and immediately behind that wheel only was a short but steep bump.
I just rolled the car forward a few feet and took a little run at it and it went up and over just fine with no wheelslip at all.
So my question is, what good is an AWD system that allows one wheel to spin and the car to stay still? Could this be something that could only happen in reverse?
Yours does not have the rear limited-slip differential, and since it's open the power just takes the least path of resistance.
The Limited model had it, as did the ones with the all-weather package. But I think for 2002 the rear LSD became standard, even without the AWP.
The solution would have been to feather the brakes with the left foot and the gas with the right, to provide some resistance, so that power was re-routed to get you out.
So my question is, what good is an AWD system that allows one wheel to spin and the car to stay still? Could this be something that could only happen in reverse?
To add to what juice wrote, most of the time it's sufficient to drive just the front and rear sets of wheels rather than be able to control each one individually. Since our vehicles aren't meant for serious off roading, it becomes increasingly difficult to justify the added cost and complexity of having control over each wheel. The flagship VDC wagon and sedan have AWD systems that can direct power to any single wheel using a combination of the AWD transmission and a complex braking system.
However, I'm a little confused as to why just one wheel spun in your case. Even though you don't have a limited slip rear diffy, you do have a limited slip center differential that should have kept some power going to the front wheels. Theoretically, you would need both wheels on one side of the vehicle spinning freely to become stuck. By adding a rear LSD, you need three (the two fronts and either one of the rears) spinning to get stuck.
Lastly, our AWD systems work both in forward and reverse.
The VC can't tell what gear you're in, so yeah. It's mechanical and reactive.
But Ken has a point - you probably had one of the front wheels spinning too, maybe slower, or with power pulsing back and forth (that's what the VC "feels" like in snow).
My guess is you were high centered on the two diagnoally opposed wheels. So feather the brakes or get a VDC next time, or at least a rear LSD.
That "wheelspin scenario" was a concern for me when I bought my 01 Outback...I remembered watching an Impreza a few years ago furiously spinning its wheels trying to get out of its snowy parking place at a ski resort near me; one wheel on each axle was spinning and the car sat still.
I specifically chose the OB over the base legacy to get the LSD for the extra measure of traction, real or imagined. It may still get stuck with a LSD, but at least it gets one more wheel involved when the deep stuff comes.
Incidentally, the LSD became standard on all outbacks in 01, but was optional in 00 with the all weather package. I noticed that Cobb Tuning has a FRONT LSD available for about $1000 plus install...you'd think this thing would be unstoppable with 3 LSD's on board!
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the manual he has uses a different center torque distributor than the automatics. He has a viscous coupling, which would allow only one wheel to spin at each end of the vehicle. The same would happen with an auto, however.
A VC is rather like a coffee can full of honey. The input shaft comes in one end, the output shaft goes out the other. Each shaft has what look like discs with vanes on them (different designs include discs with holes in them, etc.). So when the input shaft spins, it spins the 'honey' which spins the output shaft. The thickness of the 'honey' determines how closely the output shaft speed must mimic the input shaft (super thick would keep them close, watery would allow large speed differences). In many ways, it is like an open differential but there's zero maintenance and the VC lasts forever while also operating more smoothly than a traditional gear differential.
On your car the torque went through the VC to the rear diff, and then to the tire with the least traction (an unfortunate characteristic of open differentials). In order for this to happen, one of your front tires must also have spun - almost certainly the diagonal opposite. I base this on the fact that the input shaft would have to spin to transfer torque to the rear. If the input shaft is spinning, then one of your front tires is spinning by definition. Unless there's an extremely tricky double shaft VC in there, which I don't think is the case.
The reason your system is still quite good is that it is designed for use on relatively smooth roads and rough tracks - where it excels. When you get on very uneven surfaces, you start to tread into territory that favors a more clunky, heavy, expensive and noisy offroad type system.
IdahoDoug
PS - I feel compelled to say this because I bet some out there are starting to think I'm a 'know-it-all' type reading this stuff from a book before posting. I can't stand those types, either. I should come clean and admit I am a former vehicle designer for Lexus, and General Motors and own a company that does technical writing and product training. It is my job to know all about how vehicles work, and I love nothing more than yakking about them. I'm not sure I've said this on the board, so there you have it. I'm new to the Subaru world due to a fluke, and every time I work on my new acquisition I am more impressed with Subarus and the people who drive them. Thanks for the bandwidth.
Last night, I made dinner for my family. The reason this is significant is that I simultaneously changed the Legacy's tranny fluid. While the water boiled, I slid my oil change pan under the Legacy, and pulled the drain. I then washed my hands, went back in the house and tossed the pasta in the water. Back out to the garage to put the plug back in, slide the pan out, then put 4 quarts back in.
No jacking. Perhaps the easiest transmission fluid change I've ever done. If any of you are wondering if you should pay the dealer $50 for this or keep putting it off with old tranny fluid, reconsider. It cost me something less than $8 and took 15 minutes. Had I not been cooking, I wouldn't even have washed my hands as all I got was a bit of warm tranny fluid on my hand while pulling the plug.
IdahoDoug - sounds like you were doing some speedy multitasking there - are you sure you didn't put Ragu in the tranny and 90wt int the pasta? :>)
Seriously - it is a snap to replace the tranny fluid. My ET wasn't as fast, but I'd recommend that anyone who can change their oil can change their own trans fluid in their OB.
Excellent way to say what I meant - if you can change your own engine oil, changing the tranny oil is actually faster and easier (no filter) if you have the long thin funnel that fits in the dipstick. I bought a gallon jug and just glugged (technical term) the whole thing right in in about 45 seconds - nice.
Ken,
The fluke was I'm a lifelong SUV guy and had ordered a Sequoia to replace my '99 Montero lease. In the background, I'd been looking for a clean used Subaru for my mother for MONTHS. All high miles, some smoked in, some beat up or a combination. Then, on the same day I found two ludicrously low mile Legacy wagons both owned by 80 year old nonsmoking guys. Asked Mom which color she wanted, and went to pick it up. On the way home with it, I fell in love with the way it drove and the utility, price and other stuff. Spontaneously, I picked up my cell phone and told the other owner I'd be by to pick up his Subaru wagon, then called the dealer and cancelled the Sequoia. I'm not like that so it was kind of a fluke. So, I paid $9200 for my '97 Legacy with 23,000 miles. Literally still smells new and the guy was so meticulous he changed the oil before I could pick it up. A day later, I drove it to LA and back without stopping in either direction (4300 miles) and it never missed a beat. He and I have become friends over it and he likes to hear what I've done with the Green Hornet. Which reminds me I have a sweet full sheepskin seat cover that arrived for the driver's seat to help out a little with the support and long drive issues the LA trip showed. Got 24mpg running a steady 82mph before making all the changes, can't wait to see what she'll do now. Working on it increased my respect for its design, and my affinity for things Subaru.Tragically, the reason he had to sell it is his wife has developed such severe arthritis she can no longer drive her Sube, so he appreciates a young guy (yeesh, I'm 41) yakking him up once in a while. I appreciate hearing the exploits of a tough guy who was on a US battleship in WWII and willing to detail the experiences he had. Great fun. I'm going to surprise him with a batch of chocolate chip cookies next time my wife bakes. It will be worth the beautiful hour drive each way and he'll get to see the lights, tires, rack, and give me his opinion on the fluids I chose (all synthetic) and we'll lean on the hood like old buddies. Anyhow, didn't mean to ramble on but that's how it happened with a little magic thrown in. In some ways, I feel like this is his car and I'm merely a steward of it until another owner comes along - kind of an honor to get a vehicle this way. Whoops! Ramble mode off.....
Jim, this is an auto but a manual would be no different. Buy a $7 hand pump that fits on a quart of gear oil for filling. Then drain the bottom plug after first removing the top (fill) plug. (helps the flow of draining pull out any debris, plus you are not embarassed to have an undrivable car and a frozen fill plug). Then replace the drain plug and pump gear oil in until it starts coming back out at you. Put the plug back in the fill hole and go to dinner with the money you saved. Tip: pick up a crush washer for each plug from the dealer for a couple bucks. The rounded side goes against the block, and this way you'll never leak a drop.
Doug: No fair talking about cookies... my wife's been too busy lately for a batch of her world-famous (well, in our world) chocolate-chip oatmeal cookies... we should have the ladies do a batch & meet at the border for an exchange & comparison!
Glad you're still liking your XOne's... I'm still convinced they were noisier than the ones I'm driving now (from the guys that run in the white shirts who work for the guy in the cowboy hat)
Whoever was talking about over-torquing... my air wrench is adjustable. It just barely snugs the nuts on, and I finish the twist with the torque wrench. Works like a champ.
Lark has clear headlight protectors, but he follows the Subaru Crew and Forester threads.
I have one of those oil pumps, they are great. Do it on a warm day because 75w90 is THICK in cold weather.
Doug: did your dinner guests enjoy your smell of gear oil cologne? (inside joke - the stuff stinks!)
Good point, paisan, reverse gear is indeed shorter than even 1st gear. Also, if wheels are spinning like crazy, use "manual traction control", i.e. ease off the gas!
Cobb's front LSD is a Torsen, so it would do nothing in the snow, and perhaps even get damaged. It's tuned for the track, where both tires are on pavement and it can effectively transfer power to the outer front wheel in sharp turns during auto cross.
AWD gives you at least two tires with power, one on the front axle, one on the rear. But FWD and RWD may only give you ONE tire with power. So you're doubling your chances of getting traction.
Add the rear LSD and it's triple. A front (viscous) LSD or traction control, and it's quadruple.
But if you're on frictionless ice and have zero traction, zero times four is still zero. Can't break the laws of physics, no matter how good the AWD is.
A mere 10 months ago, when I got my wintergreen bean, I would smile & wave when I saw another one on the road. Yesterday there were THREE of us wintergreen OB's in a row (Berkeley). Then I parked to do an errand, & when I left, there was a fourth around the corner.
Can I start a petition to discontinue the wintergreen color? It's too pretty and too popular!
I did not try to feather the brakes...I had plenty of room to roll forward a few feet and get a rolling start back up and it worked fine with no spinning at all. I know the rear wheel spun because I could see the mark on the grass but did not notice anything by the front wheels. There was no power pulsing but Juice, you are probably right about being high centered on two diagonally opposed wheels; the ground is very uneven at that point.
bkaiser: Even base Canadian cars come with the cold weather package as standard, but I'm sure it didn't include LSD for model year 00.
And idahodoug, thanks for the great explanation. I knew about the VC but hadn't fully understood the implication of having just one in the centre.
Did you read the C&D review of the Hummer H2 a couple of months ago? They went on these trails where one wheel was completely, way, way off the ground. At one point weight would shift and it would drop the front wheel and pick up one rear wheel - so that it looked like a dog relieveing itself.
But while that weight is transfered, both tires have no traction. That's why Hummers have locking diffs on both axles.
Realizing that this question may have been asked before in this incredibly long thread, WHY hasn't Subaru included the 6-cylinder engine as an option in the Legacy GT Wagon? I have a black '97 that I love but could use more power. I honestly don't care for the Outback for several appearance reasons, mostly the two-tone paint. Add in the 'raised white letter' tires, and the 'chicken wire' fog lamp guards and all that SUV crap that I hate. How a car "looks" is very important to me, and the "cleaner" the look, the better. That's just my opinion.
As for my Subie, it has 63 thousand miles and not one rattle. I take good care of it and it takes care of me.
Thanks for the advice on changing gear oil. I was planning to get one of those pumps. The MY2000 manual mentions a sealant of some sort for the threads on the drain and fill plugs. (Sounds like a form of Loctite.) Do you think it's really necessary?
For auto tranny fluid, I use a device that adapts to quart or gallon bottles, has a shutoff valve, an 18" hose and fitting. Put the assembly on the bottle, insert fitting into dipstick hole, and open the valve. Really simple.
why SOA is not selling it while it is available in Japan and elsewhere is one of those 6 million $ questions many of us want answered! personally I'd still rather have the a version of the 2.0 biturbo legacy or they could develop a 2.5 turbo specifically for the US market!.
Paul, the cookie exchange sounds like a great idea - let's get the ladies to plan it, bake them and deliver them, eh? Hmmmm... On the guy with the white hat, did you buy his 800 Ultras? If so, I think they're quieter on some surfaces.
Ken, I'll ask Lark about the protectors. Also, the tranny fluid didn't smell the same as the older stuff. It was Dex III and I'm used to Dex II which doesn't have that evil smell. What's the deal with that?
Goose, forgot to mention a help in your situation. With a rear wheel spinning, you can apply moderate parking brake to help encourage some torque to go to the nonspinning wheel. Depending on the axle, this can help quite a bit. Also works on RWDs.
Juice, the H2 doesn't have a locker on either axle - it uses a traction control brake application instead. I've got lockers front and rear and have driven the TC systems on many of the same Moab trails the H2 article reviewd and cann unequivocally say that the true locker kicks any TC system's butt. This is more true the more severe the terrain. I've also driven an H1 at the AM General offroad training course near their HQ. The H1 was quite impressive. I suspect the H2 is a very effective vehicle offroad as well but will reserve judgement.
Rum, guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have a plain Jane (apologies to any Janes on the board) Legacy L wagon and envy the Outback looks. In my area the light grilles are quite neccessary, too.
JFL - no, I don't think the thread locker is neccessary - just added insurance against a diff draining itself. I've opened diff plugs perhaps 25 times and never had one so much as loosen and these were all offroad vehicles that got lots of diff housing abuse over rocks and the like. Funny I can't recall if my '97 Legacy plugs had crush washers or not. If they do (call dealer), definitely replace these. I think they did, but am having a brain fart at the moment.
I'm going to do my last maintenance on the Legacy - bleed the brakes and put in synthetic. Everything else has gone so smoothly I'll probably have a siezed bleeder or something. After this, virtually all fluids and wear items will be completely up to snuff. I've run out of stuff to do!!! Then, I'm doing something for ME. I have a nice light grey 1" sheepskin cover for the driver's seat to install. I bought a pair and one went into the Cruiser's driver seat and this one is for the "Green Hornet". Nice price and nice construction if anyone's interested in the website.
Robert: solution! Buy the new monotone color Titanium Pearl H6 Bean or VDC. The color is sort of a gold/champagne, very nice.
The RWL tires were gone a year or two ago, the only Soob that has those now is the Baja, I believe.
The fog light covers should pop right off, I know several Forester owners have removed them, and I imagine it's the same way for Outbacks (anyone confirm?).
So you have everything you want.
I'd like to see a more powerful GT also, but it looks like we'll get some type of turbo, not the H6.
James: my Miata didn't use loctite on the threads of the trans and diffy plugs. Neither did our 626.
Doug: if it smells that bad, it has to be good for you! ;-)
I thought the H2 had optional lockers? Either way, TC is fine for pavement. In fact, if you think about it, full lockers can be bad because they cause binding, or at least some forced tire slip on pavement.
The 2003 brochure says White Frost Pearl is available with every Outback model. No wonder, it's a beautiful color IMO.
Doug, What's the URL? I'd like one for my wife's Legacy GT and for my Civic. Costco sells a generic one for $30. Don't know how well it will fit a Subaru; it won't fit my 93 Civic sedan because of the single, fixed, headrest pillar (Subarus have two cylindrical supports).
I posted this Q in the Problems/Solutions board, but haven't rec'd an answer so I'll try here...'02 Dual Moonroof (Bean, VDC) owners could you please let me know if your front moonroof opens BOTH sections (car roof and the window) with the switch?
Mine used to, then the car roof section stopped opening w/ the switch & I need to open it manually. Service Dept. tells me this is "normal", and an '03 on the lot did need to be opened manually. Please give me some feedback as to what yours does....I can't believe mine was the only bean around that used to open w/ the switch & all of a sudden stopped.
On the ones I've test driven, buttons open both. You may have to hold it down or hit it more than once, because it stops opening about half way (for less wind buffeting).
My front moonroof (02 VDC) "pops-up" (exterior) when I press the switch. The inside part does not open unless I slide it. In the back, both sections open and close with the switch.
The '00+ Outback fog light grills come off by simply rotating the cover counter-clockwise (or is it clockwise) a bit. Regardless, they do come off no problem.
so I'm still confused about what it's supposed to do - some do some don't? (& thanks mike - I saw your reply but am still curious about this particular vehicle since the manufacturer of your moonroof might be different?)
Either way, this warrants a trip back to the service dept. when the soobie mechanic is there. I want to drive WITH him in my car & discuss the slushy acceleration too.
Jillian, who's seriously starting to think about getting that extended warranty.....
Doug: Nope, mama got the 800's on her van. I got the speed-rated Spectrums Which, BTW, to my ear are almost quieter than the 800's. Gotta enjoy 'em while I can - gonna have to make the winter changeover before you know it! (76 today, but don't be fooled!)
Full lockers are almost always driver-switchable, meaning they operate normally on the road and are 'locked' with a switch for offroad use. Great feature.
Mike,
These are a bit more than $30, but are genuine sheepskin and so will not pack down and look ratty in a few months. We paid $260 total for a pair after finding several places wanting $350-$550. This included shipping and these are really top quality with good anchoring systems. They also arrived BEFORE expected - a bonus.
I just purchased a 2002 Legacy L wagon and like everything about it except the annoying daytime running lights. Does anyone know the most effective way to disable them? I would prefer a solution other than the "parking brake screw" option, since that leaves the light on the dash on.
Thanks Papa Bear. BTW, see you at the chat tonight?
Jillian: I got the Subaru Gold. It's more than a financial issue, it's piece of mind. My wife can drive care-free for the next 7 years. In fact, we'd probably sell it with a couple of months left on the warranty for added resale value. The buyer will be reassured, too.
Plus, it includes roadside assistance, so we dropped AAA (we were paying $71 per yer). Those two offset a big part of the cost even if we never use the warranty.
Watch, Murphy's Law says it'll be the perfect car!
bobdoggie: check the Forester thread, I think we just discussed that issue, and someone mentioned a site with instructions on how to disable them on several cars, including Legacys.
Or option 2 - leave your lights on all the time. They shut off automatically anyway.
rumc3: Count yourself lucky; in Canada the 00 GT was not even available with a standard...auto only. I too like the look of it but I wanted a standard and the GT's lower stance rendered it less desirable as a towing vehicle and for the occasional off-road use mine gets.
The OB foglight grilles pop off easily anticlockwise for cleaning. I think there's even an arrow on the grille.
Someone was asking about headlight film. I have the X-Pel Automotive product on my foglights and headlights. Tricky to put on if the temperature is less than 15C (about 60F I think). They need to be soft and flexible and I had to give up my attempt to do it on a cool September day and leave it until spring. Been there two years with no issues, and virtually invisible. I'm sure I'm the only person who knows they are there.
I have my service manual for the SVX at home so they have nice detailed stuff. I believe it's under the overhead light fixture but I'll verify and post up for yah!
That was me asking. Are they still clear - no yellowing? Does dirt get caught in the edges much? Does it make cleaning the lights any more difficult (edges stick up, etc)? And finally, do you have a lot of gravel/rocks on your roads up there?
We don't use salt, but the sand truck often scatters pea size gravel as well and w/s, paint and lamps take a beating.
Thanks for the info on the daytime running lights, but the site: http://lightsout.org/disable.html is the source of the emergency brake fix that I mentioned before, so it's not a good/elegant solution in my view. Also, though the challenge of disabling the daytime running lights was mentioned on the Forrester board, nobody posted a solution that I could see.
So, I'm still seeking a solution. Can anyone help?
provided we don't get a nasty t-storm like we just had. fried a network 'blade' at work - and they're on a conditioned ups system. apparently, lightning struck VERY close to us.
atexiera: Hey, thanks for the suggestion. I actually have looked at that same color scheme, and it is nice, but Subaru should make available some other solid color options for the Outback. Didn't realize the white letter stuff went bye bye...I'm also glad to see that our Canadian friend actually goes off road. I'll bet that 99% of the fleet of SUV's I see daily (upscale suburbia near a big East Coast city) have never even see a DIRT road, much less OFF-road!!
Comments
Sorry for the Looooonnnngggg delay in getting back to you on this subject (original post no. 6188). I got feed up with it temporarily and didn't care to re-live the issues right away. But here it is. . . the non-Subaru mechanic replenished the differential fluid. This only helped to mask the problem, in that the thumping didn't occur unless the car had been driven for at least 1/2 hour and doing lots of very tight turning. Not yet realizing this, I dropped off my GT at the Subaru dealer in the evening for them to look at it in the morning. Of course, they test drove it and couldn't find any problem. Frustrated, and running late to pick up my daughter because I had taken the bus to and from work that day, I took the legacy GT and left. Of course, 2 days later, after I had done a bunch of errands, the thumping was back. Well, I got smarter. I took the morning off from work, drove the car for an hour, got the thumping to the point that you didn't have to be in the car to notice it, and drove it to the Subaru dealer again. This time the mechanic said "It looks like you have a problem". Go figure. Anyway, they think it is a problem with the AWD, specifically the differential so they are going to "start" by replacing the differential and seeing how things go. They ordered the parts which should be in any day now. I'll let you know how it turns out. The good news. . .the mechanic was kind enough to confirm that this fix falls under the powertrain warrenty. Good thing since I now have almost 50k miles on it and the b2b is expired (powertrain to 60k). I'll let you know how it turns out.
MWWST
IdahoDoug
Arriving home we found our road being repaved and the driveway blocked by heavy equipment. So I dropped off the trailer and parked on a bit of unkempt "lawn", accessible from my neighbour's driveway. This piece of land is uneven and slopes down to the house. When I came to back the car out and park in our driveway the right rear wheel simply spun and the car didn't move an inch. The wheel was in a bit of a dip but still firmly on the ground, and immediately behind that wheel only was a short but steep bump.
I just rolled the car forward a few feet and took a little run at it and it went up and over just fine with no wheelslip at all.
So my question is, what good is an AWD system that allows one wheel to spin and the car to stay still? Could this be something that could only happen in reverse?
All comments welcome.
The Limited model had it, as did the ones with the all-weather package. But I think for 2002 the rear LSD became standard, even without the AWP.
The solution would have been to feather the brakes with the left foot and the gas with the right, to provide some resistance, so that power was re-routed to get you out.
-juice
To add to what juice wrote, most of the time it's sufficient to drive just the front and rear sets of wheels rather than be able to control each one individually. Since our vehicles aren't meant for serious off roading, it becomes increasingly difficult to justify the added cost and complexity of having control over each wheel. The flagship VDC wagon and sedan have AWD systems that can direct power to any single wheel using a combination of the AWD transmission and a complex braking system.
However, I'm a little confused as to why just one wheel spun in your case. Even though you don't have a limited slip rear diffy, you do have a limited slip center differential that should have kept some power going to the front wheels. Theoretically, you would need both wheels on one side of the vehicle spinning freely to become stuck. By adding a rear LSD, you need three (the two fronts and either one of the rears) spinning to get stuck.
Lastly, our AWD systems work both in forward and reverse.
Ken
But Ken has a point - you probably had one of the front wheels spinning too, maybe slower, or with power pulsing back and forth (that's what the VC "feels" like in snow).
My guess is you were high centered on the two diagnoally opposed wheels. So feather the brakes or get a VDC next time, or at least a rear LSD.
-juice
I specifically chose the OB over the base legacy to get the LSD for the extra measure of traction, real or imagined. It may still get stuck with a LSD, but at least it gets one more wheel involved when the deep stuff comes.
Incidentally, the LSD became standard on all outbacks in 01, but was optional in 00 with the all weather package. I noticed that Cobb Tuning has a FRONT LSD available for about $1000 plus install...you'd think this thing would be unstoppable with 3 LSD's on board!
A VC is rather like a coffee can full of honey. The input shaft comes in one end, the output shaft goes out the other. Each shaft has what look like discs with vanes on them (different designs include discs with holes in them, etc.). So when the input shaft spins, it spins the 'honey' which spins the output shaft. The thickness of the 'honey' determines how closely the output shaft speed must mimic the input shaft (super thick would keep them close, watery would allow large speed differences). In many ways, it is like an open differential but there's zero maintenance and the VC lasts forever while also operating more smoothly than a traditional gear differential.
On your car the torque went through the VC to the rear diff, and then to the tire with the least traction (an unfortunate characteristic of open differentials). In order for this to happen, one of your front tires must also have spun - almost certainly the diagonal opposite. I base this on the fact that the input shaft would have to spin to transfer torque to the rear. If the input shaft is spinning, then one of your front tires is spinning by definition. Unless there's an extremely tricky double shaft VC in there, which I don't think is the case.
The reason your system is still quite good is that it is designed for use on relatively smooth roads and rough tracks - where it excels. When you get on very uneven surfaces, you start to tread into territory that favors a more clunky, heavy, expensive and noisy offroad type system.
IdahoDoug
PS - I feel compelled to say this because I bet some out there are starting to think I'm a 'know-it-all' type reading this stuff from a book before posting. I can't stand those types, either. I should come clean and admit I am a former vehicle designer for Lexus, and General Motors and own a company that does technical writing and product training. It is my job to know all about how vehicles work, and I love nothing more than yakking about them. I'm not sure I've said this on the board, so there you have it. I'm new to the Subaru world due to a fluke, and every time I work on my new acquisition I am more impressed with Subarus and the people who drive them. Thanks for the bandwidth.
-mike
No jacking. Perhaps the easiest transmission fluid change I've ever done. If any of you are wondering if you should pay the dealer $50 for this or keep putting it off with old tranny fluid, reconsider. It cost me something less than $8 and took 15 minutes. Had I not been cooking, I wouldn't even have washed my hands as all I got was a bit of warm tranny fluid on my hand while pulling the plug.
Cheers,
IdahoDoug
Seriously - it is a snap to replace the tranny fluid. My ET wasn't as fast, but I'd recommend that anyone who can change their oil can change their own trans fluid in their OB.
IdahoDoug -- Great write up using honey as an analogy. I missed your early history -- what was the fluke that got you into Subies?
Ken
Thanks,
Jim
BTW - I enjoy and learn from most of your posts.
Excellent way to say what I meant - if you can change your own engine oil, changing the tranny oil is actually faster and easier (no filter) if you have the long thin funnel that fits in the dipstick. I bought a gallon jug and just glugged (technical term) the whole thing right in in about 45 seconds - nice.
Ken,
The fluke was I'm a lifelong SUV guy and had ordered a Sequoia to replace my '99 Montero lease. In the background, I'd been looking for a clean used Subaru for my mother for MONTHS. All high miles, some smoked in, some beat up or a combination. Then, on the same day I found two ludicrously low mile Legacy wagons both owned by 80 year old nonsmoking guys. Asked Mom which color she wanted, and went to pick it up. On the way home with it, I fell in love with the way it drove and the utility, price and other stuff. Spontaneously, I picked up my cell phone and told the other owner I'd be by to pick up his Subaru wagon, then called the dealer and cancelled the Sequoia. I'm not like that so it was kind of a fluke. So, I paid $9200 for my '97 Legacy with 23,000 miles. Literally still smells new and the guy was so meticulous he changed the oil before I could pick it up. A day later, I drove it to LA and back without stopping in either direction (4300 miles) and it never missed a beat. He and I have become friends over it and he likes to hear what I've done with the Green Hornet. Which reminds me I have a sweet full sheepskin seat cover that arrived for the driver's seat to help out a little with the support and long drive issues the LA trip showed. Got 24mpg running a steady 82mph before making all the changes, can't wait to see what she'll do now. Working on it increased my respect for its design, and my affinity for things Subaru.Tragically, the reason he had to sell it is his wife has developed such severe arthritis she can no longer drive her Sube, so he appreciates a young guy (yeesh, I'm 41) yakking him up once in a while. I appreciate hearing the exploits of a tough guy who was on a US battleship in WWII and willing to detail the experiences he had. Great fun. I'm going to surprise him with a batch of chocolate chip cookies next time my wife bakes. It will be worth the beautiful hour drive each way and he'll get to see the lights, tires, rack, and give me his opinion on the fluids I chose (all synthetic) and we'll lean on the hood like old buddies. Anyhow, didn't mean to ramble on but that's how it happened with a little magic thrown in. In some ways, I feel like this is his car and I'm merely a steward of it until another owner comes along - kind of an honor to get a vehicle this way. Whoops! Ramble mode off.....
Jim, this is an auto but a manual would be no different. Buy a $7 hand pump that fits on a quart of gear oil for filling. Then drain the bottom plug after first removing the top (fill) plug. (helps the flow of draining pull out any debris, plus you are not embarassed to have an undrivable car and a frozen fill plug). Then replace the drain plug and pump gear oil in until it starts coming back out at you. Put the plug back in the fill hole and go to dinner with the money you saved. Tip: pick up a crush washer for each plug from the dealer for a couple bucks. The rounded side goes against the block, and this way you'll never leak a drop.
IdahoDoug
IdahoDoug
Glad you're still liking your XOne's... I'm still convinced they were noisier than the ones I'm driving now (from the guys that run in the white shirts who work for the guy in the cowboy hat)
Whoever was talking about over-torquing... my air wrench is adjustable. It just barely snugs the nuts on, and I finish the twist with the torque wrench. Works like a champ.
Cheers!
Paul
Thanks for recapping your story, I enjoyed reading it. Your introduction into Subedom wasn't a fluke -- it was destiny! :-)
I'd love to hear what the original owner has to say about the choice of fluids. Keep us in the loop.
Ken
I have one of those oil pumps, they are great. Do it on a warm day because 75w90 is THICK in cold weather.
Doug: did your dinner guests enjoy your smell of gear oil cologne? (inside joke - the stuff stinks!)
Good point, paisan, reverse gear is indeed shorter than even 1st gear. Also, if wheels are spinning like crazy, use "manual traction control", i.e. ease off the gas!
Cobb's front LSD is a Torsen, so it would do nothing in the snow, and perhaps even get damaged. It's tuned for the track, where both tires are on pavement and it can effectively transfer power to the outer front wheel in sharp turns during auto cross.
AWD gives you at least two tires with power, one on the front axle, one on the rear. But FWD and RWD may only give you ONE tire with power. So you're doubling your chances of getting traction.
Add the rear LSD and it's triple. A front (viscous) LSD or traction control, and it's quadruple.
But if you're on frictionless ice and have zero traction, zero times four is still zero. Can't break the laws of physics, no matter how good the AWD is.
-juice
Can I start a petition to discontinue the wintergreen color? It's too pretty and too popular!
Jillian & the formerly unique wintergreen bean.
Sea Mist Green replaced it. It's a more yellow color, almost like a light green/gold vs. our green/silver.
Both are nice, but I like that our Wintergreen will be more unique.
-juice
Jillian
I did not try to feather the brakes...I had plenty of room to roll forward a few feet and get a rolling start back up and it worked fine with no spinning at all. I know the rear wheel spun because I could see the mark on the grass but did not notice anything by the front wheels. There was no power pulsing but Juice, you are probably right about being high centered on two diagonally opposed wheels; the ground is very uneven at that point.
bkaiser: Even base Canadian cars come with the cold weather package as standard, but I'm sure it didn't include LSD for model year 00.
And idahodoug, thanks for the great explanation. I knew about the VC but hadn't fully understood the implication of having just one in the centre.
But while that weight is transfered, both tires have no traction. That's why Hummers have locking diffs on both axles.
-juice
As for my Subie, it has 63 thousand miles and not one rattle. I take good care of it and it takes care of me.
For auto tranny fluid, I use a device that adapts to quart or gallon bottles, has a shutoff valve, an 18" hose and fitting. Put the assembly on the bottle, insert fitting into dipstick hole, and open the valve. Really simple.
Ken, I'll ask Lark about the protectors. Also, the tranny fluid didn't smell the same as the older stuff. It was Dex III and I'm used to Dex II which doesn't have that evil smell. What's the deal with that?
Goose, forgot to mention a help in your situation. With a rear wheel spinning, you can apply moderate parking brake to help encourage some torque to go to the nonspinning wheel. Depending on the axle, this can help quite a bit. Also works on RWDs.
Juice, the H2 doesn't have a locker on either axle - it uses a traction control brake application instead. I've got lockers front and rear and have driven the TC systems on many of the same Moab trails the H2 article reviewd and cann unequivocally say that the true locker kicks any TC system's butt. This is more true the more severe the terrain. I've also driven an H1 at the AM General offroad training course near their HQ. The H1 was quite impressive. I suspect the H2 is a very effective vehicle offroad as well but will reserve judgement.
Rum, guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have a plain Jane (apologies to any Janes on the board) Legacy L wagon and envy the Outback looks. In my area the light grilles are quite neccessary, too.
JFL - no, I don't think the thread locker is neccessary - just added insurance against a diff draining itself. I've opened diff plugs perhaps 25 times and never had one so much as loosen and these were all offroad vehicles that got lots of diff housing abuse over rocks and the like. Funny I can't recall if my '97 Legacy plugs had crush washers or not. If they do (call dealer), definitely replace these. I think they did, but am having a brain fart at the moment.
I'm going to do my last maintenance on the Legacy - bleed the brakes and put in synthetic. Everything else has gone so smoothly I'll probably have a siezed bleeder or something. After this, virtually all fluids and wear items will be completely up to snuff. I've run out of stuff to do!!! Then, I'm doing something for ME. I have a nice light grey 1" sheepskin cover for the driver's seat to install. I bought a pair and one went into the Cruiser's driver seat and this one is for the "Green Hornet". Nice price and nice construction if anyone's interested in the website.
IdahoDoug
thanks.
The RWL tires were gone a year or two ago, the only Soob that has those now is the Baja, I believe.
The fog light covers should pop right off, I know several Forester owners have removed them, and I imagine it's the same way for Outbacks (anyone confirm?).
So you have everything you want.
I'd like to see a more powerful GT also, but it looks like we'll get some type of turbo, not the H6.
James: my Miata didn't use loctite on the threads of the trans and diffy plugs. Neither did our 626.
Doug: if it smells that bad, it has to be good for you! ;-)
I thought the H2 had optional lockers? Either way, TC is fine for pavement. In fact, if you think about it, full lockers can be bad because they cause binding, or at least some forced tire slip on pavement.
The 2003 brochure says White Frost Pearl is available with every Outback model. No wonder, it's a beautiful color IMO.
-juice
..Mike
..Mike
Mine used to, then the car roof section stopped opening w/ the switch & I need to open it manually. Service Dept. tells me this is "normal", and an '03 on the lot did need to be opened manually. Please give me some feedback as to what yours does....I can't believe mine was the only bean around that used to open w/ the switch & all of a sudden stopped.
thanks!
Jillian
-mike
-juice
Alland
-Brian
Either way, this warrants a trip back to the service dept. when the soobie mechanic is there. I want to drive WITH him in my car & discuss the slushy acceleration too.
Jillian, who's seriously starting to think about getting that extended warranty.....
If the dealer refuses to acknowledge it just go to a different dealer, much less stressful that way.
-mike
Cheers!
Paul
Full lockers are almost always driver-switchable, meaning they operate normally on the road and are 'locked' with a switch for offroad use. Great feature.
Mike,
These are a bit more than $30, but are genuine sheepskin and so will not pack down and look ratty in a few months. We paid $260 total for a pair after finding several places wanting $350-$550. This included shipping and these are really top quality with good anchoring systems. They also arrived BEFORE expected - a bonus.
IdahoDoug
Thanks for the help.
Jillian
Jillian: I got the Subaru Gold. It's more than a financial issue, it's piece of mind. My wife can drive care-free for the next 7 years. In fact, we'd probably sell it with a couple of months left on the warranty for added resale value. The buyer will be reassured, too.
Plus, it includes roadside assistance, so we dropped AAA (we were paying $71 per yer). Those two offset a big part of the cost even if we never use the warranty.
Watch, Murphy's Law says it'll be the perfect car!
bobdoggie: check the Forester thread, I think we just discussed that issue, and someone mentioned a site with instructions on how to disable them on several cars, including Legacys.
Or option 2 - leave your lights on all the time. They shut off automatically anyway.
-juice
Use at your own risk, and all the usual disclaimers.
-juice
The OB foglight grilles pop off easily anticlockwise for cleaning. I think there's even an arrow on the grille.
Someone was asking about headlight film. I have the X-Pel Automotive product on my foglights and headlights. Tricky to put on if the temperature is less than 15C (about 60F I think). They need to be soft and flexible and I had to give up my attempt to do it on a cool September day and leave it until spring. Been there two years with no issues, and virtually invisible. I'm sure I'm the only person who knows they are there.
-mike
That was me asking. Are they still clear - no yellowing? Does dirt get caught in the edges much? Does it make cleaning the lights any more difficult (edges stick up, etc)? And finally, do you have a lot of gravel/rocks on your roads up there?
We don't use salt, but the sand truck often scatters pea size gravel as well and w/s, paint and lamps take a beating.
IdahoDoug
So, I'm still seeking a solution. Can anyone help?
Thanks in advance.
-Brian