Your description of the "parallel streets" GPS anomaly is probably incorrect.
I was quite puzzled about what was causing this since it is often the GPS system "itself" that put me on, guided me too, the street I am currently on when it decides I'm on a parallel street.
But then I happened to be driving in one of our mountainous areas and the system kept repeating, again and again, the same directions.
I now think that what is actually happening is that the system is momentarily losing contact with one of the three GPS satellites it requires for operation. Once it regains contact it completely resets its past memory and recomputes your location. Since it now has no past history you may end up anywhere within the system's accuracy tolerance.
ah~ Yes. You brought up one thing I forgot to mention. I remember reading somewhere that the system does store the last known position before ignition was turned of (or before a signal loss), and extrapolates the vehicle's current position using speed and direction information. If this is indeed the case, it could be a cause of error also.
But from the information I have, I think GPS precision (or lack there of) and the error-correction algorithm are still the main cause behind the "parallel street" phenomenon.
I would wholeheartedly agree with you on a fresh startup of the Nav, but when the system itself "brung" me here to the point I'm at and then suddenly decides I'm really someplace else I don't see how any astute programmer could/would screw that up.
With the sole exception of for some reason having "lost" my current position, momentary loss of 1 GPS signal, and then having to recompute. The symptom is so widespread, and has existed since my 2001 RX300 was built, that it cannot be something like a temporary interruption of power.
Let me provide a scenario to illustrate. Say you have road A and B that are parallel to each other but are 50' apart. A beautiful Blue Mirage Metallic Avalon Limited is driving on road A, but the GPS signal places the car exactly in the middle of road A and B. The algorithm decides that the car is on B.
Now, the trouble comes. After a few seconds, the new GPS calculation shows the car to be 1' from the middle of the two roads, leaning toward road A. Does the algorithm suddenly thinks that the car is on road A, but should it change the display to road A?
In this scenario, that would be correct. But what if the opposite happens? What if the GPS was correct all along, but the new calculation suddenly shows the car to be on an adjacent, parallel road? Should the system "jump road"?
As a result, the program has no way to know if it should jump on the new calculation, since it doesn't know whether the one before was correct to begin with. So no matter what the programmers decide to do (whether to jump on new information or not), the algorithm is bound to fail occassionally with inaccurate GPS feed. And it is my guess that Toyota / Denso decided that it is best for the system to only use the latest data and calculation, perhaps with a small degree of reluctance in the program to "jump roads," and hope for the GPS signal to be as precise as possible.
In a perfect world, where the GPS signal and the DVD data are both completely accurate, the map program would be ridiculously to write. Given the long / lat, load up that section of the map, and there you have it.
From my experience dealing with GPS, I would say Toyota / Denso is already doing a pretty darn good job. I bought a standalone GPS reader a while ago, which rumored to be made by the same OEM that works with Denso / Toyota. My faith in GPS was somewhat shattered after I hooked it up to the computer and started taking in the readings. Not only did it require almost 30 seconds to warm up (on a good day) and acquire the minimum of 3 satellite signals, the calculations jumped so wildly that it was impossible to know exactly where I was and at what altitude. I stood there on my drive way and the system showed that I was bouncing around the block over a pretty big area, and my altitude bounced somewhere between 260' and 320', non-stop.
So the fact that the GPS in my Avalon has only put me on the wrong road once in the past 3.5 months and 3500 miles, I'm already very happy with the algorithm.
Good choice. I've noticed ~5% better mileage with full synthetic plus "percieved" better performance. Mobile 1 has a 1-800 phone number on the box and they will explain the engine testing they are doing comparing fully sny w/refined oil.
My dealer's parts department printed me a copy of the computer screen showing the '04 and '05 valve trains for comparison. Maybe your's would do the same.
I remember the Corvair Spyder; cross the railroad tracks too fast and the front end becomes airborne. I think Ralph Nader had a field day with this model!
Methinks even a beginning programmer would know to "throw out", digitally filter, an anomalous computation, "location". And if they didn't a quick visit to the woodshed would suffice.
IMMHO the system couldn't work at all, given the tolerances involved, if it didn't have a "look backward" routine to validate the current computed location.
It's sort of like taking four readings, computations, of position, throwing out the two most deviant from the previous computation, and using the two that appear to most closely match a "reasonable" computation.
Were I in control I would advise the programmers that in the event of a lost signal then wait a few 100 milliseconds before "reseting" the past known information.
I had a 1/4 inch gap in the "wood molding' at the right side of the audio cover. After working on the gap the audio dor would stick and require 4-8 hard pushes to open. The door was perfect before work was done.The door was replaced with the recal door. Same thing. Anytime the door is closed for a day or so it will not open. No different. I plan to take a hard look and file part of the latch away to allow it to open easier. Lesson learned ,live with the little stuff as the average certified mechanic doesn't read the directions and messes up.
While all this was going on the right side air vent control, the verticle wheel, is almost fulsh with the dash. The directions state the assembly has to be installed a certain way or this would be damaged. Some day I'll get enough of this poor control and ask that it be removed for the third time and fixed right. ange1
n0v8or, thank you very much for posting this drawing. It certainly supports your description. A very sophisticated design it is.
One would think that oil cannot fully drain out of the plunger after the engine is shut down. If some oil is retained within the plunger mechanism, at cold start-ups this mechanism would not be dry and the oil pressure would very quickly rise to operating levels.
Independently of lubrication, could it be that as the engine warms up, different expansion/contraction properties of metallic parts cause variable gaps in clearance, and thus the tapping sounds?
ange, sorry to hear about this poor job. I was lucky -- my new audio cover lines up OK, opens and closes OK and there are no new gaps, scratches or other traces of poor workmanship.
You're missing the point. Of course programmers can make all kinds of intelligent designs to help the computer makes the best possible decision. My point is that the information fed into the computer (i.e. GPS info) was wrong (or inaccurate) to begin with, so no matter how intelligent the computer is, the decision can still be wrong. The program can do whatever waiting or guessing or resetting it wants, but there is still no way to guarantee accurate output based on inaccurate input.
This is kind of like giving a person an SAT exam but with a few words taken out of each question. You can't possibly expect the person to get 100% on it.
I know just how you feel! I've had my 2006 Avalon Limited for 2 months and was hit a few days ago. I was stopped in traffic when a car hit me from behind and pushed me into the pickup in front of me. Damage about $3,000. The Avalon is a replacement for my 1999 Camry LE V6 that was totalled 3 months ago when we were stopped in traffic (I was the passenger that time) and hit from behind. That one totalled the Camry as the other driver was going at least 45 mph and didn't even hit his brakes! The doc hadn't even released me yet from the first one and here I go again. Whiplash both times.
Has anyone put on a plastic protective cover in front of the laser cruise control unit? Trying to figure out how the cowling around the fog lamp and cruise control comes off. It seems like there is a screw holding the top center of the cowling. Do you need to take off the splash guard to get to it? The dealer didn't know the answer. Thanks Tony
But the old GPS systems were more precise. Our old GPS in our '99 Acura did and still does an excellent job of tracking our location on the map and taking us to within 30 feet (not 3 blocks) of our programmed destination (as you mentioned, to give one time to prepare to turn) It's not as fancy or complicated as the Avalon GPS, but IT WORKS.
To answer your question, the correct street is about 20 yards away. You're right about the map data -- our street goes up to 10 and our house registers in the 50's or 60's. Doesn't matter because when I put our address in, it delivers us to a street with a different name.
You're driving down a relatively straight road and suddenly you feel a sneeze coming on. So now you sneeze, you eyes close automatically for a second or so. You have momentarily lost sight of the roadbed, so do you automatically assume you're headed for the borrow pit or hold the stearing wheel straight?
This has been discussed some time in the past. Pictures were also available. To remove the cover, squeeze the two taper sections that are fastened to the grill and it pulls right out. I tried clear plastic , 1/4 in thick, but had trouble tapeing it on and I did not know if it would affect the senser. I also used the instant type glue and was hard to work with and I gave up. I got some 2 in wide clear tape and taped two layers to the cover just removed. This allows about 1/4 in gap between the tape and the rader plastic lens. It works fine. It takes the rain a little time to be sensed before it shuts down in the rain. ange1
The navigation does wierd things. I tried for 1 hour to put in an address that was 5 years old at Waynesboro Pa adn it kept giving me Waynesboro Washington. It would not accept the address as it anticipated and kept clearing the screen. Going back did not give me any letters to use. I finally used a dummy street in town and did the Atlas the rest of the way. I always select the fasted way and it tried to take the long way through lights and towns.
Anther time it commanded --turn right and go one eight of a mile and turn right. I did this and it directed me in a circle right back where I was. I guessed I should turn at the first right which was 100 ft. away. My guess happened to be the right turn. Most of the time it works as expected.
I am finding it takes several minutes for the GPS to turn on before it picks up. I am told the satellites require a little time until they zoom in. This is clear countryside terrain, no buildings or hills.
But you're assmuing that you're on the road to begin with The GPS doesn't know that. It loses signal for a second, but how does it know that it was on the right road to begin with?
Somehow, I have the feeling that we're talking about somewhat different things.
Where is your starting location? Does your regional setting (Region 1, 2, 3, etc.) cover PA?
It's normal for GPS to require up to a few minutes to acquire sufficient satellite signal to begin its calculations. When I played with a stand-alone GPS receiver, it usually took anywhere between 15 seconds to 4 minutes, depending on weather condition, line-of-sight, interference, etc.
Any updates? I went to the website for the product and a few other sites that sell them. The Avalon it either not listed, or there is an indication that it is not compatible with the Navi option. Is the website out of date, or are you attempting something not officially supported?
I've searched here and poked around some online parts sites, but have not found part numbers or listings for a key fob for the LTD. Anyone know of someone that this online?
Interstingly, the VIR part usually shows both this fob and another and the price of the whole thing isn't much more than some people have quoted for the fob alone. I am wondering if that device includes a key. Obviously it makes no sense to order that for a fob -- it was just interesting to see the closeness in prices if a key is in fact included.
I'm a new board user. I searched but found no posts about 05/06 Avalon users getting very noticeable rattles/vibrations related to the sound system. I have an 05 Avalon Limited, which comes with the JBL 12-speaker system. Though it seems a great system, my enjoyment has been seriously compromised by vibrations and/or rattles coming from/near several of the speakers. It seems especially noticeable on talk radio for some reason, but is there with music as well. It can be intermittent, but it's there more often than not. I've had it to the dealer, who agrees there are noises but has not been able to track down the source(s) - they'll try again next oil change visit. I've tried to locate the sources, which seem to include all the right-side speakers (on pillar between front pass door & windshield; in the front pass door; at the front-end of the rear pass side door). Cannot tell if it's vibration/rattles from the speakers themselves, or loose nearby fittings being rattled by the speakers. I am even getting vibration noise coming from the right passenger door window. And it happens at low/mid volume levels (10-25 on the volume dial), not just at high volumes above 25 or 30. Any similar experiences, fixes or suggestions out there?
Just found you guys and I'm new to forums so bear with. Ordered and waited and took delivery of an Indigo Ink Pearl Limited in Sacramento (with every bell and whistle offered) on Sept 1; Age 48; 4 time Toyota owner; Former vehicle was an 02 Camry SE (also Indigo Ink); Fog lights are loose; 10 character XM display sucks; Lack of in-motion Navi override sucks. Otherwise, this is the finest machine I have ever owned. The "punch it" factor makes me grin ear to ear every time I breeze by a semi or dart through the openings during rush hour (sanely, of course)
Now for my Question.
When operating in Laser Cruise mode and you approach a vehicle to the front, does everyone's LCC back off real abruptly or do you get a smooth deceleration? It doesn't seem to matter which range I use although at longer range the deceleration is slightly less abrupt. And what's with the 5 mph jumps in speed increase? I find myself dropping back to normal cruise control mode more often than not.
05 Avalon Ltd owner. I have read many of the posts/threads about the transmission getting 'lost' between gears, and a hesitation on acceleration. I have experienced both of these. Got the Toyota dealer's 'that's the way it's supposed to work' response. I also believe it upshifts too quickly (on mine, between 3000-3500 rpm), negatively affecting acceleration. A friend with a Lexus ES330 (same or very similar drive-by-wire tranny) had the same issues, and after badgering his Lexus dealer was told they could apply a 'software fix' to change the upshift points and decrease the hesitation incidence. They told him they don't like to offer it, and it negatively impacts mileage. He had it done, and has been quite pleased with the results. Has anyone heard of this software fix being available from Toyota? I expect it should be, and plan to firmly request it during my next service visit.
I was reading some of the other Lexus and Toyota forums and there are many complaints about the transmission - going back to 2002. I am going to discuss with my dealer. Apparently the "fixes" I have read about are available in Canada and Japan but not in the US because they affect emissions.
One post is particularly interesting, because the writer discusses "complete loss of gear" which I experienced too. Copy of post is below:
"Since purchasing the Avalon in early June, I have been frustrated with how the car operates between 20 and 40 miles per hour. The car does not always know what gear it needs to shift into. It will frequently race 1000 rpm ahead without any change in speed. Then suddenly it will accelerate and the rpm’s will drop back to normal rpm.
It seems to happen most often in rush traffic when trying to change lanes. The hesitation in acceleration will cause me to lose most of my margin of safety in the process of changing lanes. In this regard, the car is not safe. There is no way to predict when the problem will occur, and therein, lies the safety hazard.
It would seem that the last effort by the service department to update my computer programming failed to achieve any level of improvement to my satisfaction with one exception. Since the last computer upgrade, I have not experienced the complete loss of gear at high speeds.
Is this a problem in all 2005 Avalons? Is Toyota aware of the problem and do they plan to resolve it?
Serviced on Friday, October 21. Toyota reset the computer learning back to factory default. Technical support in CA explained that there are no current plans to address the issue. Once the learning process develops a bad pattern, it must be reset back to factory default and the relearning started over."
After just having caught up on reading the last few thousand messages on this board it is apparent this car suffers from a veritable plethora of problems ranging from bad transmissions to malfunctioning "little doors" to vibrations and rattles from the audio speakers to a horrible navigation system, etc., etc., etc.! What a mess!
And to think the smug Canadian Toyota dealers, at least in B.C., will not even budge from the excessive MSRP and act as though they are doing you a huge favor to even sell you one of these rigs, is a real trip!
Glad I did not get suckered into buying one and my sympathies to the rest of you who did.
With my 98 Sable, a layman's way to fix such transmission issues is to disconnect the battery overnight to erase the PCM and all...then reconnect it the next day and drive like a manic for a few days so it "learns" to be aggressive with the shifting.
It seems like the Avalon would do the same thing? Since it also "learns" how you drive? Anyone tried it?
Yes, the laser cruise control is rather abrupt sometimes, but not always. Even worse I think is resuming speed, which often invokes a downshift of 2 gears, lots of noise and fuss. This happens especially when you are going uphill. They need a more intelligent controller.
Despite all that, I still like the LCC. Use it all the time on high speed freeway cruising (I5 on west coast). The 5 mph increments initially bugged me, but now I like them because it's easy to adjust to changing speed limits for road construction, etc. When the limit drops from 70 to 55, just 3 quick taps and you're in business.
ahh, the wonders of technology! Now have 15k+ and have not noticed any hesitation that I would consider dangerous. But, then again, I do drive my Touring somewhat aggressively, even to the point of manually shifting the car maybe 30 or 40% of the time (around town). It may cost me a little gas but not a whole bunch because most of my miles on the highway anyway. Our engines have a wonderful sweet spot between 4-5500 rpm and it would be a shame if there is something in some software that gets in the way. Wonder if you folks can't 'retrain' the silly tranny computer in this manner. Not an excuse for what may be a bad design, just an idea to get around it?
My acrylic lens works great. Put on 6000 miles with it in place w/no problems. I popped out the fairing in front of the LCC unit and duct taped the acrylic lens in place. See posting #8290.
I did not like having Toyota on the trunk, so I took some fishing line and slipped it under the letters and sawed up and down and it comes right off. Save it on wax paper and you can put it back, just has some goo on back
The LCC not only backs off real quick, depending on the variables, you'll get a warning tone and the brakes will be automatically applied.
Normal cruise adjust is 1 MPH per tap. While in LCC, 1 tap will get you to the next speed equally divisible by 5. This was by design according to Toyota.
My location is region 9 in the phila area.The book states the system is available.
While in lower n.j., the navigation stopped working. No voice commands. Later looking at the manual, this turned out to be a limited guidance area.
I checked info re GPS on the internet and found helpfull data.One article stated to be really accurate you need two units, one to correct the signal errors, and the other to track you.
I would guess 99 out of 100 times the gps starts right up. I am learning to accept some of the little things that are not perfect. My wife and I now bet on will the gal give us the right directions.
My manual shows the map data to be a bit old---2003 by Navteq. Two year old data seems to be a bit old for our highly technical world. I am not whining, I just tell it like it is. ange1
I may have found the explaination for entering a pa address and getting a washington state address. I am in no.9 region and the address was 200 miles away in the same region. The address was in the white part of the map where only main routes are available. Thanks for your imput. ange1
Remove goo with charcoal lighter fluid. Will not harm paint. I know. I removed Toyota and XL from back. Looks classy with just AVALON and unless you see the fog lights you would think it's a limited. I would have bought a limited , but I didn't want the problems that you read about in this forum.
Comments
I was quite puzzled about what was causing this since it is often the GPS system "itself" that put me on, guided me too, the street I am currently on when it decides I'm on a parallel street.
But then I happened to be driving in one of our mountainous areas and the system kept repeating, again and again, the same directions.
I now think that what is actually happening is that the system is momentarily losing contact with one of the three GPS satellites it requires for operation. Once it regains contact it completely resets its past memory and recomputes your location. Since it now has no past history you may end up anywhere within the system's accuracy tolerance.
But from the information I have, I think GPS precision (or lack there of) and the error-correction algorithm are still the main cause behind the "parallel street" phenomenon.
With the sole exception of for some reason having "lost" my current position, momentary loss of 1 GPS signal, and then having to recompute. The symptom is so widespread, and has existed since my 2001 RX300 was built, that it cannot be something like a temporary interruption of power.
Now, the trouble comes. After a few seconds, the new GPS calculation shows the car to be 1' from the middle of the two roads, leaning toward road A. Does the algorithm suddenly thinks that the car is on road A, but should it change the display to road A?
In this scenario, that would be correct. But what if the opposite happens? What if the GPS was correct all along, but the new calculation suddenly shows the car to be on an adjacent, parallel road? Should the system "jump road"?
As a result, the program has no way to know if it should jump on the new calculation, since it doesn't know whether the one before was correct to begin with. So no matter what the programmers decide to do (whether to jump on new information or not), the algorithm is bound to fail occassionally with inaccurate GPS feed. And it is my guess that Toyota / Denso decided that it is best for the system to only use the latest data and calculation, perhaps with a small degree of reluctance in the program to "jump roads," and hope for the GPS signal to be as precise as possible.
In a perfect world, where the GPS signal and the DVD data are both completely accurate, the map program would be ridiculously to write. Given the long / lat, load up that section of the map, and there you have it.
From my experience dealing with GPS, I would say Toyota / Denso is already doing a pretty darn good job. I bought a standalone GPS reader a while ago, which rumored to be made by the same OEM that works with Denso / Toyota. My faith in GPS was somewhat shattered after I hooked it up to the computer and started taking in the readings. Not only did it require almost 30 seconds to warm up (on a good day) and acquire the minimum of 3 satellite signals, the calculations jumped so wildly that it was impossible to know exactly where I was and at what altitude. I stood there on my drive way and the system showed that I was bouncing around the block over a pretty big area, and my altitude bounced somewhere between 260' and 320', non-stop.
So the fact that the GPS in my Avalon has only put me on the wrong road once in the past 3.5 months and 3500 miles, I'm already very happy with the algorithm.
IMMHO the system couldn't work at all, given the tolerances involved, if it didn't have a "look backward" routine to validate the current computed location.
It's sort of like taking four readings, computations, of position, throwing out the two most deviant from the previous computation, and using the two that appear to most closely match a "reasonable" computation.
Were I in control I would advise the programmers that in the event of a lost signal then wait a few 100 milliseconds before "reseting" the past known information.
http://members.cox.net/n0v8or/valve_train.jpg
While all this was going on the right side air vent control, the verticle wheel, is almost fulsh with the dash. The directions state the assembly has to be installed a certain way or this would be damaged. Some day I'll get enough of this poor control and ask that it be removed for the third time and fixed right. ange1
One would think that oil cannot fully drain out of the plunger after the engine is shut down. If some oil is retained within the plunger mechanism, at cold start-ups this mechanism would not be dry and the oil pressure would very quickly rise to operating levels.
Independently of lubrication, could it be that as the engine warms up, different expansion/contraction properties of metallic parts cause variable gaps in clearance, and thus the tapping sounds?
havalongavalon
havalongavalon
This is kind of like giving a person an SAT exam but with a few words taken out of each question. You can't possibly expect the person to get 100% on it.
Thanks
Tony
I found this website on Avalon aftermarket grille.
Anther time it commanded --turn right and go one eight of a mile and turn right. I did this and it directed me in a circle right back where I was. I guessed I should turn at the first right which was 100 ft. away. My guess happened to be the right turn. Most of the time it works as expected.
I am finding it takes several minutes for the GPS to turn on before it picks up. I am told the satellites require a little time until they zoom in. This is clear countryside terrain, no buildings or hills.
Somehow, I have the feeling that we're talking about somewhat different things.
It's normal for GPS to require up to a few minutes to acquire sufficient satellite signal to begin its calculations. When I played with a stand-alone GPS receiver, it usually took anywhere between 15 seconds to 4 minutes, depending on weather condition, line-of-sight, interference, etc.
Thanks,
D.
Interstingly, the VIR part usually shows both this fob and another and the price of the whole thing isn't much more than some people have quoted for the fob alone. I am wondering if that device includes a key. Obviously it makes no sense to order that for a fob -- it was just interesting to see the closeness in prices if a key is in fact included.
Thanks,
D.
Thanks,
John
Now for my Question.
When operating in Laser Cruise mode and you approach a vehicle to the front, does everyone's LCC back off real abruptly or do you get a smooth deceleration? It doesn't seem to matter which range I use although at longer range the deceleration is slightly less abrupt. And what's with the 5 mph jumps in speed increase? I find myself dropping back to normal cruise control mode more often than not.
Thanks,
John
Interesting reading at http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=102636
One post is particularly interesting, because the writer discusses "complete loss of gear" which I experienced too. Copy of post is below:
"Since purchasing the Avalon in early June, I have been frustrated with how the car operates between 20 and 40 miles per hour. The car does not always know what gear it needs to shift into. It will frequently race 1000 rpm ahead without any change in speed. Then suddenly it will accelerate and the rpm’s will drop back to normal rpm.
It seems to happen most often in rush traffic when trying to change lanes. The hesitation in acceleration will cause me to lose most of my margin of safety in the process of changing lanes. In this regard, the car is not safe. There is no way to predict when the problem will occur, and therein, lies the safety hazard.
It would seem that the last effort by the service department to update my computer programming failed to achieve any level of improvement to my satisfaction with one exception. Since the last computer upgrade, I have not experienced the complete loss of gear at high speeds.
Is this a problem in all 2005 Avalons? Is Toyota aware of the problem and do they plan to resolve it?
Serviced on Friday, October 21. Toyota reset the computer learning back to factory default. Technical support in CA explained that there are no current plans to address the issue. Once the learning process develops a bad pattern, it must be reset back to factory default and the relearning started over."
And to think the smug Canadian Toyota dealers, at least in B.C., will not even budge from the excessive MSRP and act as though they are doing you a huge favor to even sell you one of these rigs, is a real trip!
Glad I did not get suckered into buying one and my sympathies to the rest of you who did.
:lemon:
It seems like the Avalon would do the same thing? Since it also "learns" how you drive? Anyone tried it?
Yes, the laser cruise control is rather abrupt sometimes, but not always. Even worse I think is resuming speed, which often invokes a downshift of 2 gears, lots of noise and fuss. This happens especially when you are going uphill. They need a more intelligent controller.
Despite all that, I still like the LCC. Use it all the time on high speed freeway cruising (I5 on west coast). The 5 mph increments initially bugged me, but now I like them because it's easy to adjust to changing speed limits for road construction, etc. When the limit drops from 70 to 55, just 3 quick taps and you're in business.
Max
Normal cruise adjust is 1 MPH per tap. While in LCC, 1 tap will get you to the next speed equally divisible by 5. This was by design according to Toyota.
While in lower n.j., the navigation stopped working. No voice commands. Later looking at the manual, this turned out to be a limited guidance area.
I checked info re GPS on the internet and found helpfull data.One article stated to be really accurate you need two units, one to correct the signal errors, and the other to track you.
I would guess 99 out of 100 times the gps starts right up.
I am learning to accept some of the little things that are not perfect. My wife and I now bet on will the gal give us the right directions.
My manual shows the map data to be a bit old---2003 by Navteq. Two year old data seems to be a bit old for our highly technical world. I am not whining, I just tell it like it is. ange1
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