Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI

PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
edited July 2014 in Toyota
Shopping between these two vehicles? This is the place to compare and contrast the two.
«13456716

Comments

  • gchambersgchambers Member Posts: 3
    Hi, I was hoping to get some advice. I'm in the market for a new car (I'm definitely buying used) and I want better gas mileage. I'm considering a 2006 prius, but I'm also considering a 2006 golf TDI. I've never owned a diesel (not really even driven them much) and wanted to see generally what people thought about the comparison. The main reason I'm considering it is that I've got a long highway commute and I don't do a lot of city driving so a diesel might work better for me. I'd appreciate any feedback, particularly on the diesel! Here are the two specific cars: http://vlane.com/comparison/2118
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The diesel Honda Accord for USA was suppose to lack the urea bladder that exists in German models. Apparently they were not able to develop one without a urea bladder that passes US regulations.

    No offence to people who like Hondas but Honda engineering is far too over-rated.
    The Insight in my opinion is a joke. No competiitve diesels up their sleeves. No competive V8 or Rear drive versions for their Acura division. I remember years ago waiting in great anticipation for details of the new hybrid Accord and the rumored new hybrid Pilots Also more recently I remember how excited I was with regards to a diesel Accord and Pilot: :sick:

    Must I say more.

    Oh yes Honda makes good i4 engines. But that's about it and that in my opinion is just not enough in order to compete with their big boy competitors.

    I
  • chadxchadx Member Posts: 153
    Not taking into consideration build quality or any other factors, the basic rule of thumb is hybrids if you do mostly city driving and diesels if you do mostly highway at highway speeds.

    Both ad cost to the vehicle.

    A diesel engine will generally last longer than a gasoline engine. Hybrids do seem to be holding up well, but consider at some point, you will have to replace battery packs.

    Hybrids have two systems to maintain. Unlike a fulltime electric-only vehicle, a hybrid still needs the oil and oil filter changes, coolant flushed and filled, spark plugs changed, rusted exhaust replaced, and other normal maintenance items, plus any battery pack issues.

    With diesels, you may have a slightly harder time finding a place to fill up. Some areas have quite a big price spread between gas and diesel. Some people don't like the smell and emissions (the model year will impact that quite a bit).

    These are but a few things to take into consideration when deciding which is best for you...but my first comment about city=hybrid and hwy=diesel is the biggest factor.

    Personally, I looked at hybrids and wanted them to work for me, but living in a rural area where almost all driving is hwy, they make no sense so I'm anxiously waiting on some of the new cleaner small diesels.
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Your message was dated May27th. By now I figure you've bought one or the other. Please let us know what came your way. I'm curious.
    As to the previous comments prefering the diesel I couldn't disagree more. The hybrid obviously has 2 motors sharing the work thus longevity would be a plus. I have an '04 Prius with 95 K miles and nary a problem. I average 48 mpg summer & 38-42 mpg winter. It is, without a doubt, the smartest, most dependable car I've ever owned. Price of Deisel fuel is crazy (nearly a buck more than gas). I once owned a Rabbit Deisel (79) and must say back then it was about the worst car I ever owned. Loud noisy engine and added smoke. Winters (if you live where its cold) are problematic when the fuel gels and won't start. 6 yrs old now and winter smiles for dependable starts w/ my Prius. The Prius gave 546 miles to a tank of gas often in ideal conditions. Another point I beg to differ with... Batteries are no problem as the track record has shown. Remember they're covered for 100K if not more. In just a few simple words....Toyota has built a near masterpiece. Last point: Look next to this article and notice that the Prius gets a 9.7 score card while the VW Golf gets a lesser 8.6 grade for what its worth.
  • chadxchadx Member Posts: 153
    To clarify a few of my points and correct some assumptions that you read into some of my comments, see below. I think we agree on more things than disagree. The jist of my previous post was hybrids accel in city and combined driving where diesels accel at more rural and open road driving.

    "The hybrid obviously has 2 motors sharing the work thus longevity would be a plus."

    How would longevity be increased by two motors sharing the work? You now have two different sources that can have issues (toyota's great reliabilty track record aside). Also note both engine and motor make lower power and it is their combined rate that makes a "reasonable" amount of power. Neither are full sized motors working in a unstressed, relaxed 1/2 output manner. My take on it is more parts, more parts to break.

    "I have an '04 Prius with 95 K miles and nary a problem. "

    As I said, Toyota has a great track record. I never said a prius was unreliable. I simply said at some point, you'll have to replace the battery pack. Even if that is every 150k - 200k, it will need replaced at some point. Simple statement that Toyota agrees with. Not saying there is anything wrong with that. It's just a fact to be taken into consideration in the comparison, especially when looking at used vehicles that might already have 100k on them.

    One of my comments that might have been taken wrong was when I said a diesel engine will last longer than a gasoline engine (not talking hybrids here). In that direct comparison, you may always find exceptions, but overall, that is not something that can be argued with. Afterall, diesel (diesel oil to be precise) is a lubricant and gasoline is a solvent. Also, diesel engine are build far more beefy to handle the high stresses of a high compression engine. Diesel engines tend to outlast gas engines by 2 to 1 by mileage.

    "Price of Deisel fuel is crazy (nearly a buck more than gas)."

    Correct. That needs to be taken into consideration. That also plays a part in the city or rural comparison since small diesels get even better mpg than hybrids in high-speed cruising where hybrids clearly are the best for city or city-biased combined driving. That price difference also changes with time. Your $1 difference is a snapshot in time and even that doesn't tell the whole story. % difference is what counts. That $1 difference could mean diesel is 20% more or 80% more depending on the unit prices of each. And both are a moving target.

    "I once owned a Rabbit Deisel (79) and must say back then it was about the worst car I ever owned. Loud noisy engine and added smoke."

    You know yourself you can't compare 19 year old technology with todays diesel technology. A+ for trying, though! Ha. :D

    The original poster doesn't mention where they live or if cold would be a factor, but with modern winter diesel, you rarely have to worry unless you are talking extreme cold temps and even then, a little additive solves that issue.

    "Look next to this article and notice that the Prius gets a 9.7 score card while the VW Golf gets a lesser 8.6 grade for what its worth. "

    Keep in mind those scores are partially based on items that are opinion (look and feel, handling, fun factor, perceived acceleration, etc.) vs. factual (reliability. etc.) I will, however, absolutely agree that VW build quality is not great. That is why my first statement, of my original post, clearly said "Not taking into consideration build quality or any other factors, the basic rule of thumb is hybrids if you do mostly city driving and diesels if you do mostly highway at highway speeds." I specifically excluded build quality in my comparison because VW is spotty and Toyota is so good. Obviously it does one no good if your diesel engine runs for 500k miles if the rest of the car won't last for 100k. There are plenty of other diesel vehicles with good build quality, though.

    I'll end with my previous statement which I think still stands:
    Not taking into consideration build quality or any other factors, the basic rule of thumb is hybrids if you do mostly city driving and diesels if you do mostly highway at high speeds.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Very well stated. I might add one or two things to the list. The Prius is notorious for its poor handling in windy conditions. It also has some issues in snow dealing with traction control. VWs are considered exceptional in all driving conditions. Which further makes them the best choice for rural and highway driving. After just a short ride around town with a friend in his new 2009 Prius, I would not own one. They are rather noisy and rough riding. Ok as a city commuter. It will be interesting to see the new Rabbit TDI when it gets to the USA. I think we will see a lot of 60 MPG reports. It would make a great runabout for me to have.
  • chadxchadx Member Posts: 153
    A couple updates to my own post! (edit feature has disappeared).

    The poster commented on a '79 diesel rabbit and I replied that one can't compare 19 year old technology with todays diesel technology. I was wrong. It is 29 year old technology. Even worse. Ha.

    The original poster also commented that I should look at the user review ratings because the prius score was a 9.7 score while the VW Golf gets a lesser 8.6 grade. I made the point that those scores are partially based on items that are opinion (look and feel, handling, fun factor, perceived acceleration, etc.) vs. factual (reliability, build quality. etc.)

    I looked into that a little further and brought up the reviewers individual reviews. One reviewer had rated the VW all Ones which brought the average score down significantly (there are only 15 reviews). Other than another reviewer with an overall rating of 4.9, most of the reviewers scored the VW in the 9.3 to 10 range. The Prius only has 6 reviews and they range from 9.4 to 9.9 (no perfect 10s like the VW). What I'm trying to show here is that the sample size is too small to be of any real value (plus it's based on the "I like it" factor). If one person logs in and scores the Prius all Ones, then it's average score will be lower than the VW.

    These scores can be very misleading and are almost a dis-service since some folks aren't willing to go in and look deeper. One can't make assumptions based on a super small sample size, a "look and feel" rating system and the resulting averaged score.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    Instead, its so short ... no major bickering!
    Just the usual combination of logical, fact-based, scientific discussions that tend to favor diesels, mixed with emotional, reactive, irrelevant (I had a problem with a VW 29 years ago!) arguments favoring hybrids.
    Also, its nice to see that the oil companies have subsided in their gouging of consumers on diesel prices.
    The biggest joke is that in spite of the BS arguments, you could have 2 service stations of the same company (such as Chevron or Shell) within a city block, but on opposite sides of the border, and somehow diesel costs more than gas on the US side, but costs less than gas on the Canadian side of the border!
    Funny how those bogus excuses for cranking up the price don't apply to the same fuel from the same company from the same refinery as soon as its outside of the US.... (and no, we don't have any tax subsidies on diesel in Canada ... fuel taxes are fuel taxes whether its Premium, Regular, or Diesel)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    California charges 10 cents more tax on diesel. Even then diesel is cheaper than RUG at many stations now.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Personally, I looked at hybrids and wanted them to work for me, but living in a rural area where almost all driving is hwy, they make no sense so I'm anxiously waiting on some of the new cleaner small diesels.

    I found that my Camry Hybrid did its best in rural settings. In the hills of WV, on 2 lane roads I averaged 37+ mpg over 67,000 miles. My typical spread was 38 to 42 on rural roads, 35.5 to 39 on the Interstate, and 40+ in towns.
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Member Posts: 80
    We sold an automatic, 2001 Echo to buy our automatic 2010 Prius, which my wife loves because it is quiet and gets better fuel economy. The Jetta TDI automatic gets worse mileage than our 2001 Echo and VW brags about the engine sound,"It goes VARRUUMMM!" in a recent commercial.

    Which part of quiet is quality does VW not understand? So the noisy diesel is now a sales pitch?

    Worse, it is a smaller car, not even in the same sedan class as the 2010 Prius, which I bought for $24,250 ... taxes, registration, fees, ... everything. I'm also getting an insurance policy discount because it is a hybrid.

    Bob Wilson
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Glad you like your new Prius. Have not seen any here in San Diego yet. The Prius may be quiet sitting at a stop light. I don't think you would consider it as quiet out on the road as the VW. Don't have TV so have not seen the ads. Are you sure they were advertising the diesel Jetta? And it will be hard to do a comparison with the Golf TDI as it is not for sale yet in the USA. If MPG is your number one concern a Moped would get you about 200 MPG. Myself driving dynamics are more important than mileage. Safety is an issue also and it is hard to beat the VW Jetta/Golf for safety.
  • tiff_ctiff_c Member Posts: 531
    I have a 2010 Prius on order. I'm a big diesel fan but I hate VW's since every one I have owned has been unreliable. My parents have owned a few as well and those spent more time in the shop than on the road. :lemon:
    The Prius is getting my votethis time around until someone other than VW makes a decent diesel with great reliability and no run flat tires!
    I like the look of the Jetta Spotwagen TDI but would rather have a Golf TDI if they were reliable. The dealer told me they will need a timing belt at 60K miles.
    I've heard he is wrong but spending time on the TDI forum just tells me that TDI owners don't trust their dealerships to work on their cars.
    I don't have time nor inclination to be my own mechanic or search around for a TDI specialist.
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Member Posts: 80
    Hi,

    There are two. The first has a guy washing his Prius and his neighbor talks about the great mileage to get a 'comic spit' from the Prius owner. Then the Jetta owner brags about the "VARRUUMMM." The second one is similar with the beetle announcer and again talks about the "VARRUUMMM."

    Our requirements were to replace my wife's 2001 Echo that was getting long on the tooth. The 2010 Prius came at a good time and excellent price. It is working out great and it has enough room for our E-bike in the bike.

    Bob Wilson
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    If Honda made a TDI, I'd buy it without hesitation. It appears that Honda has abandoned their plans to bring their diesels stateside. I own a 2004 Prius and have never had any issues with unplanned maintenance. With a VW you will definitely have your service advisor's number on speed dial (maybe #2 or #3) :P I've owned two VW's and two Audi's. Great driving vehicles and HIGH maintenance. Way too many warranty issues and heaven forbid you have to start paying AFTER the warranty expires. The Prius has been a huge hit in this country and rightly so. It is one fantastic vehicle and I love mine. The TDI is very noisy and lots of NVH at idle. Maintenance costs over the first 100k miles will be LOTs cheaper in the Prius. Gotta love that!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The TDI is very noisy and lots of NVH at idle.

    Yes the Prius is much quieter sitting at a stop light than the VW TDI. When you take off and head down the street that all changes. The Prius becomes a rough riding noisy vehicle. The Passat TDI I owned was much quieter on the road than the 2009 Prius I have spent time riding around in. My take is, you spend more time moving than sitting idle, when you are in a vehicle.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Quite true however one thing is certain and you'll be spending lots more money on repairs and maintenance on a TDI. As to quietness, I spend most of my time cruising at 65 in my Prius and the interior comfort and noise levels are fine. I can carry a conversation and not raise my voice even with the radio on! Those TDI's will never really catch on as much as the hybrids (mainly Toyota have). Oh.. almost forgot. A key to a car's interior quietness is tires. I have these wonderful tires (this is NOT a plug)..heheheh They are Goodyear Tripletreds. Man o' man these tires have transformed my Prius. Rain time is my favorite time with these tires.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Tires do make a huge difference. My friend just has the junk tires Toyota puts on the Prius when new. Our San Diego roads are so rough that you feel every crack and expansion joint when driving along at 35 MPH.

    The 2010 Prius is not getting the rave reviews as on the last model. Here is one just posted this month on Edmund's:

    Well what can you say. The seats are not comfortable, the ride is numb and disconnected from the road, wind/road noise is at a premium, very jittery over any type of non-smooth pavement. However, going green is the way to go. We need more of these types of cars only with better execution...

    Is the 2010 Prius even cheaper built than the last model? I guess the fun factor is subjective. One owner gives it a 10 for fun and another owner a 1 for fun. All give it a 10 for fuel economy. So the Prius is a winner from that aspect.

    In San Diego it is easier to find a 2010 Prius than a Jetta TDI. Both should sell well when the clunkers get turned in for $4500.

    PS
    We are eagerly awaiting the 2010 Golf GTD to arrive.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Actually, you have to put the review into perspective. These hybrids are not sports cars and the mag rags are all about enthusiasm. I am more of an appliance type of guy with respect to my transportation. Most importantly I love the tech. The TDI has no tech like the new Prius does. It is just plain boring to me. I still love my 2004 tech goodies and the fact that only maintenance was oil changes. I have a few friends with VW/Audi's that love their cars but can't stand the high maintenance costs. The Toyota Prius really took off like an explosion once the 2004 model came out. They are so ubiquitous now. I wonder why cab companies aren't switching to diesels. Where I live I actually see Prius cabs. Highlanders too. Must be the fact that the maintenance and reliability of VW is the issue. Too bad. Oh.. and what really stinks (no punn) is that Honda seems to have abandoned their plans to bring a diesel here. So now we only have VW. Not much of choice.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Don't forget Mercedes and BMW are offering very fine diesel cars and SUVs. SUVs being the area that diesel really makes a difference in fossil fuel consumption. There are places like Victoria BC that have lots of Prius as taxi cabs. Not sure why you never see them here in San Diego. NYC Taxi authority did everything in their power to block hybrids. Then they changed when they tried the Escape hybrid. Not sure if any US city uses Prius cabs.

    PS
    VW has moved up the quality survey as Toyota has fallen down. Hyundai is near the top from close to the bottom. Mercedes has gained ground after shedding their albatross Chrysler.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    The problem with Mercedes and BMW is that their vehicles are expensive. If I were to spend some bucks on a diesel there is only one out there that really would be worthwhile. I can't see why the 335D Bimmer is not flying off the dealer lots. An extraordinary car and the performance is similar to that of a gasser. Only issue is the urea thing that would be a pain to maintain. As to quality, VW has a LONG way to go before they are anywhere near Lexus/Toyota standards. If you're referring to JD Power surveys, I don't really consider those reliable. I tend to focus on surveys that CR puts out.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Toyota average 1.01 problems per vehicle and VW 1.12 problems per vehicle in recent JD Power IQ results.

    .11 difference, big nothing!

    Consumer Reports surveys are not credible. CR only surveys it's subscribers. JD Powers data is based on a sampling group free from bias and larger sampling size than CR.

    There is no evidence of difficulty of use or of maintenance of a urea addition emissions system.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Is that initial quality or over time?

    I've answered a lot of surveys on my cars over the years and seldom do I get a survey after I have 10,000 miles on my car. Initial quality is a lot easier to achieve than long term durability.

    My AudiTT didn't act up (electronics) until after 10K.

    My 350Z did start having problems at 3K but the idiots that owned them never told the truth in surveys. A lot of people had the same problem that I had and yet when I saw surveys it didn't seem like a big deal. The tire wear and noise was unbearable. The numerous visits to the dealer were unforgivable.

    My experience is people, especially on early surveys, are reporting on the car of their (current) dreams and really are not too critical. I guess they justify to themselves they made a good choice.

    Statistically you may show VW as a close second to Toyota, but in the real world no one believes it, including many VW owners.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Member Posts: 1,405
    Just curious too, your id "moparbad" does that mean you think Mopar's are "bad" as in good? Or that they are bad as in junk?

    If you're a Mopar fan then I can see how you could easily be fooled into thinking VW makes a durable, reliable car.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    HEHEEH I'd have to agree! Mopar almost lost it until Fiat came to the rescue. Based on what I've read on the boards I'd stay away from VW for a while. I'll stick with either Honda or Toyota for reliability.
  • petlpetl Member Posts: 610
    JD Power assesses vehicles in 4 categories.

    1) Performance and Design: Taken from the Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout (APEAL) study, this measure is based on owner satisfaction with vehicle Performance, Style, Features and Instrument Panel, and Comfort.

    2) Initial Quality: Taken from the Initial Quality Study (IQS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 90 days of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems that have caused a complete breakdown or malfunction, or where controls or features may work as designed, but are difficult to use or understand.

    3) Predicted Reliability: Derived from historical trending for a vehicle and/or manufacturer in our Initial Quality and Vehicle Dependability Studies, Predicted Reliability is a forecast of how reliable a newer vehicle might be over time.

    4) Overall Dependability: Taken from the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems that have caused a complete breakdown or malfunction of any component, feature, or item (i.e., components that stop working or trim pieces that break or come loose).

    The most recent JD Power survey was Initial Quality which only looked at the first 90 days of ownership (not long term). There may be a big difference in customer satisfaction between the first 90 day IQ and the 3 year Overall Dependability surveys with a specific vehicle.
  • mike91326mike91326 Member Posts: 251
    Based on the last few JD Power's reports, I'd give Hyundai a good look. If they bring over the Elantra diesel next year it would be a good choice.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Thanks for that information. It means absolutely nothing because 90 days is really not enough time to gauge whether a vehicle will last over its life expectancy. Bottom line is that MOST cars today are very reliable. The TDI does not scare me, however I'd prefer the Bimmer 330D even though it is a lot more money. That car taken care of properly will outlive me! Heck my best friend's Mercedes Diesels are still going strong since 1981!!!!! Unfortunately the car manufacturers don't seem to be advertising that diesel is CLEAN these days. The TDI commercial is cute but it's not going to make it mainstream like the hybrids are now.
  • jejohns1jejohns1 Member Posts: 1
    Plus a diesel engine can run on 100% bio-diesel fuel, B100. If only the manufactures would warranty bio-fuel with their engines, currently they only warranty up to B5 (5% bio-diesel). Why is this important? The gasoline-electric hybrid still relies on fossil fuel petroleum, which we have to import (national security implications) and adds CO2 to the atmosphere. But a 100% bio-diesel can be grown domestically (making farmers happy), and would add no additional CO2 to the atmosphere because the plant used to make the bio-diesel absorbs CO2 while it grows and makes its plant oils, which are then made into bio-diesel which releases the same CO2 back into the atmosphere, in effect net zero CO2 (actually less because not all of the plant is used to make the bio-diesel). You can't get that with a gasoline-electric hybrid. Plus the toxic chemicals and metals used to make the battery are not very environmentally friendly. The bio-diesel on the other hand is non-toxic!
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    Since there isn't stringent regulation with respect to bio-diesel you're not going to see manufacturers embrace it in their new new car warranties. I have no doubt that diesel engines run fine on it, it's just that I would not want to chance using it and then have to make a warranty claim in the unlikely event of an engine problem. Car manufacturers are notorious for trying to find loopholes out of their obligations especially when the repair becomes expensive.
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Member Posts: 80
    July 2009 sales are in:

    24,295 Toyota hybrids, up 19.3%
    VW all sales, 20,590, up 0.7%, and 6,320 diesels
    Ford sales are up 1.6%

    Prius is in the top 10 model sales for July. The free market whispered in July, "Prius," which thundered through the halls of VW. Even Ford got a taste thanks to their hybrids.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    30% of ALL of VW's sales are diesel for July.
    Are 30% of all of Toyota's sales hybrids?
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,458
    Since there isn't stringent regulation with respect to bio-diesel

    I think that you have the secret there. To be fair, I can't blame manufacturers for not wanting to warrant an engine that has been run on biodiesel of unknown quality. We have to set some standards for the actual content of the fuel (limitations on impurities, minimum cetane rating and so on), put a certification process in place, and then require manufacturers to honor warranties if the car is run on fuel from a certified source.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • thammer62thammer62 Member Posts: 48
    Prius vs. the world !!! - Cagematch Live on PPV Saturday night!!

    The first responder in this thread gave a very unbiased, excellent post on the positives of each choice. Extremely well spoken and helpful. Then Prius guy shows up with his brass knuckles on and nearly ruins the thread.

    Relax Prius guy, all diesel guy is trying to do is get an efficient car - just like you have. Support a guy trying to be environmentally friendly just like yourself instead of having the mindset of "Well if you don't own a Prius like I do, you are inferior and less intellegent". Wow this country would be awful boring with nothing but Prius's driving down the street. Bad thought there.

    If Prius guy makes it a point to knock diesel or electric guy, he is being detrimental to the overall cause of our country poluting less and become less reliant on foreign oil. Go ahead and rip Hummer H2 owner in flat terrain Miami getting 9mpg. But support a guy trying to buy a compact diesel that is good for the planet - just like your beloved hybrid.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    VW sales are miniscule compared to Toyota's so it is not a good comparison. The Prius seems to be doing quite well. I'm so happy I can scream!!!!!!!!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    How do you figure? VW sold 3.1 million vehicles first half. Toyota 3.5 million. VW sold over 50% diesel. What percentage of Toyota sales world wide are hybrids? The only reason VW does not have a large footprint in the US is very well placed lobby money by the other automakers, environmental groups and the oil companies that support those groups. Oil Companies do not want to sacrifice gas sales to diesel cars. Follow the money. The Prius is an ok choice, when you have no other high mileage choice. The Jetta Sportswagen TDI beats the Prius in all but two points of the dozen I can think of. As was pointed out, it would be nice if we could all appreciate the advantages offered by any vehicle that is environmentally friendly. The only thing the Golf TDI will give up to the Prius will be cargo space.

    Highway mileage cruising speed limit 70 MPH = VW TDI
    City mileage = Prius
    Cargo space = Sportswagen
    Acceleration = VW TDI
    cornering = VW TDI
    emissions = Prius?
    braking = VW TDI
    Comfort = VW TDI
    Ride = VW TDI
    Cabin Noise level = VW TDI
    Crosswind handling = VW TDI
    Interior quality = VW TDI
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    I am referring to VW sales in the US. Toyota demolishes them in this regard. As to reliability. VW reliability sucks but has been improving lately. As to mileage. well the Prius wins on all counts. Many independent tests have been conducted and where the Prius really shines is in city mileage as compared to the TDI. The way things seem to be headed it appears that electric cars or hybrids are where manufacturers seem to be investing their R & D. I just read about the Nissan Leaf that looks very promising!! Americans will not embrace diesels. There are a few die hards but their numbers are small. WItness the success of the Prius. Heck, they can't even keep up with the demand for the 2010. The TDI is an also ran. Sorry to burst your bubble.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not sure how close you follow these trends. Toyota reliability started slipping in 2007 and VW keeps getting better. There are many aspects of a vehicle that are more important than reliability for me. Handling & braking being way out in front.

    They are not keeping up with the demand for the Jetta TDI which outsells the Prius world wide. The only reason the Prius is successful in the US and Japan is the limited choices. They cannot give a Prius away in the EU. Toyota builds diesels for all other countries except the USA. You like the Prius that is great. My experience is mostly negative with the 09 Prius I have ridden in.

    I am sure there will be a waiting list for the Golf TDI when it arrives next month. Problem is the US dollar being nearly worthless is not able to draw quality cars. So we get the dregs from Japan, Korea and Germany.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    As to reliability. VW reliability sucks but has been improving lately

    Does your statement have any meaning in terms of real world data? Quantify the difference in reliability between a VW TDI and a Toyota Prius.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    There may be a waiting list but the limited quantities available will not be anything comparable to the highly successful Prius. It seems GM is trying to take some headlines now releasing information on their Volt's mileage claim of 230 MPG. Interesting how they claim it will cost 40 cents a day to charge. They base their claim on 5 cents per KW. Not sure when/where electric is that cheap. Typical GM showmanship. Getting back to Toyota. Their quality did slip but no where near the basement that VW is in with respect to their quality. Just do a search on VW reliability and you'll see what I mean.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I did a search jpeters and all I found was opinion and anecdotal whining.

    Looking forward to reading about some real data. Or perhaps there is no basis for the "suck" comments.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I do agree the Volt is likely to be a flop. Then so is the new Honda Insight & the Toy/Lex hybrids other than the Prius. Prius hit a segment like myself looking for high mileage in a usable vehicle. I myself came close to buying the original Prius the month they hit the market. If you remember the last shortage of Prius in the USA when gas came close to $5. Our resident Toyota Salesman pointed out that the dollar made it less profitable to sell the Prius here vs Japan or other world markets. The same thing goes for VW TDIs that are built in Europe and not here or Mexico. I believe all the diesel engines are still built in Europe. With 50-70% of all VW sales being diesel it makes it tough to supply our country that has yet to accept diesel as they have everywhere else.

    Keep in mind that VW still made a profit the first half of the year. They have not had a loss as Toyota did with their poor calculation of the market. I would rather buy from a profitable company than one that is losing money.

    GM's crazy claims for the Volt are so out of touch with reality. If I owned one it would cost me about 35 cents per KWH. So charging a 16 KWH battery would be about $5.60 per night. If I owned a Golf TDI or as you a Prius I could go about 98 miles at the current price of gas or diesel. The Volt has a 40 mile range on battery only. So when gas gets to $6 per gallon the Volt will be a break even deal. That does not take into consideration the electric keeps going higher as you use more. So during the AC months it could go even higher.
  • morey000morey000 Member Posts: 384
    Wow. 35 cents per KWhr? I gather you don't live in the US. That's a very high rate. The average in the US is below 10 cents per KWhr. Places like CA and New England are ~12 cents. Wyoming is under 6 cents.

    If you're paying 35 cents per KWhr, then a plug in electric car isn't for you.

    however, for the average american, they'll be paying $ 1.60 to charge that 16KWh battery (is that what it is?). That's equivalent to getting about 70mpg.
  • jpeters1970jpeters1970 Member Posts: 82
    You must be using a lousy search engine. Try starting with consumer reports. Ahh but no.. if it isn't in your favor then it MUST be wrong. I've owned 4 VW products in the last five years. To me, that is proof enough. I've had the Prius for six years (almost) and NO un scheduled trips to the dealer. I love it.

    Gagrice:
    Sad to say you're right. The Volt will be a flop. Honda's Insight is too much like a Prius in looks. I sat in one and saw how cheap it was. It still has IMA and is NOT a full hybrid. One the 2010 Prius came out the Insight sales took a nose dive. The 2010 Prius puts mine to shame in terms of content. I love gadgets and when you load that sucker up you never will get tired of the gizmos. I absolutely LOVE the Ford Fusion Hybrid and am very tempted to put that on my shopping list in the next few years.

    Lastly, if VW had Honda reliability I'd be very tempted. Nothing against diesels at all. I just have had it with VW. I LOVE the BWM 330D but it is out of my price range. That is probably the best of both worlds. Great power, fantastic handling and last but not least, phenomenal mileage. Sorry to say, I have not seen ONE on the road yet. Doesn't seem like diesels are making any inroads. Sad.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Better look close at your bill. I have mine in my hand. In CA the rate is a little over 12 cents for the first 342 KWHs per month. Then it goes crazy. When you get to 586 KWHs the rate is just under 35 cents per hour plus applicable taxes. So an EV will be added on to the rest of your usage. Making it in California about $5.60 to charge fully. That is about 20 MPG. When Cap n Trade is added expect that to go up another 25-50%.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I agree the Ford Fusion hybrid is tempting. My choice for BMW is the X5 35D. I loved driving that rig. I know I would get tickets. It was so much faster than my Sequoia. Handles like a sports car. I am sorry to hear you had so much trouble with VW. That will turn a person off for sure. I would feel the same way.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I've owned 4 VW products in the last five years. To me, that is proof enough. I've had the Prius for six years (almost) and NO un scheduled trips to the dealer. I love it.

    All anecdote and no data. Hearsay is untrustworthy. The truth finally is provided that you own a Prius and have an chip on your shoulder against VW.

    Please share the data from your "search engine".

    What is the quantifiable difference in reliability between VW TDI and Prius?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Quantifiable?

    Is there a way to quantify obnoxious because if there is you win the prize based on your recent posts poohpoohing every fact presented by a forum member here. Untrustworthy, hearsay? Have you ever heard of JD Powers and Consumers Report and did you ever notice the stellar rankings of most VWs? Naah, I didn't think so!

    Long term reliabilty VW TDI rankings is non-existent because it is a recent vehicle. To claim that the existing VW Jetta TDI is as reliable as a Prius (backed with over a decade of survey results) because there is not enough survey results for the Jetta is just plain DUMB and I think you are smart enough to know that :confuse: .

    By the way have you noticed how stellar the VW TDI reliability rankings are for their prior generation models. Naah, I didn't think so too!

    Based on the consistently lousy results of most VWs in almost every reliability sruvery there is a very good likelihood that the VW Jetta TDI is one humungous :lemon:

    A chip on my shoulder? I guess that is exactly what you would say. ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    LOVE the BWM 330D but it is out of my price range.


    I just sold my 07 BMW 335i and I am glad I got rid of that piece of #!%!%&&@!!!!!

    After 32 months of BMW 335i ownership I went 32 times to the dealership for various malfunctions and problems some of them recurring. I had a lousy sales experience. Lousy service experiences. A lousy car and even when I tried to sell my car to the dealership I got a shoddy reception (fortunately I sold my BMW335 privately and got a good resale value)

    If I was offered a diesel BMW 335d with a 80 percent price discount I would still say no.

    That is not to say every single BMW is a lemon but for me it was a bit too close and personal and I will never get a BMW ever again. Life is too short for aggravations.

    If you are happy with the dependability of Toyotas and Hondas then stick to them .I took a risk and I truly regret it. In my humble opinion German cars were once the best in the world--I still own a 83 MB 300 Diesel . Today that is a different story and I would only buy a German car if it was top ranked in long term reliability statistics as the 83 MB 300D once was.

    Currently I love my 2010 Prius and cant think of any other car I would rather drive. This car is the best of the best engineering available today. What more can a driver want? The driving dynamics of a BMW 335i? Thanks but no thanks. ;)
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Is there a way to quantify obnoxious because if there is you win the prize based on your recent posts poohpoohing every fact presented by a forum member here. Untrustworthy, hearsay? Have you ever heard of JD Powers and Consumers Report and did you ever notice the stellar rankings of most VWs? Naah, I didn't think so!

    Obnoxious is anecdotal postings of "my BMW is crap and all BMW's are crap because I had a problem with a BMW, stay away from BMW lemons" type of material that you and others post without any type of objectivity.

    You have not posted one relevant quantifiable fact about reliability of Prius or TDI.

    JD Power data has shown that the difference between Toyota reliability and VW is 1.3 problems per vehicle.

    Consumer Reports has listed both Jetta and Golf TDI as recommended and same with Prius. CR has listed reliability of Jetta TDI as better than average.

    Using "suck" and "lemon" and "humungous" (LOL, y'all use sophisticated words) is colorful though completely lacking any value other than entertainment.

    If someone is considering a purchase of a vehicle and they are concerned about reliability, they want to know how many and what type of problems would be expected.

    For example, a 2001 Golf TDI had known problems with window regulators and MAF sensors, both of which are corrected with revised components and both of which were covered by VW even after warranty as they recognized the problem.
This discussion has been closed.