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1) Pilot
2) Highlander
3) CX-9
The Highlander and CX-9 both license the same underlying system from the same provider so the physical navigation is almost identical. However, the Highlander has a slightly newer version of the software and each company has its own UI wrapper (menuing look, etc.) and in that category the Highlander's is way ahead of the CX-9 version. They both also have voice command, but the Mazda dealers could not get it to work at all on either of two test drives and two places with two cars. The Toyota one requires you memorize their not so obvious wording sequence but once I did I was able to input my home address by voice and it worked perfectly. It was less successful with things like finding the nearest gas station. However, the system was super annoying in that it required you wait for long, repetitive vocal instructions and hit the talk button twice for each command so it took forever -- about 3 minutes just to enter my address.
The main problem I have with both of these is that they disable all user input, except by voice, when you are traveling 5 MPH or greater. This makes them almost useless in my book. Most people I know often travel with a passenger who can program the system while the driver is driving but Toyota, Mazda and the other users of this system seem to have decided that didn't matter. They would rather always have you pull over to the side of the road or off the nearest freeway exit, every time you need to search for something, or use the very iffy voice commands...
The Pilot would win automatically in my book because it works while you're moving -- just like the Garmin and all the after-market ones do. But even if it weren’t for this, it would win because it also had the most comprehensive and best working set of voice commands and the most comprehensive control of non-nav functions from the screen. You could, for example, plug in your iPod and control it from the nav screen, seeing playlists, artists, albums, etc. Same for sat radio. Better still the voice commands control al these things too. You can say “passenger temperature 68 degrees” and it works. You can say something like (I forgot exactly what I said but I just did trial and error and it was pretty logical) “audio ipod track 2” and it works Also, the new Pilot is using the exact same nav as the Acura MDX with just a few things taken out (the live traffic feature and Zagat’s I think), and the Acura nav is considered the best in the industry. My only gripe is I prefer the touch screen to the new “joystick” control that they have copied from BMW and others, but to each their own. It was easy to use, I just like a touch screen. Still, I would take the radical feature improvement over the touch screen any day.
All of them navigated OK in my tests. None are remotely as good as the newest high-end Garmin or Tom Tom products, but the integration is important. I have a Garmin now and often don’t bother using it because I don’t like setting it up or having the dangling power cord, etc
Maybe because of the 90%/10% torque split (above 10mph), the AWD system is always working on CX9. That might explain the worse MPG with AWD on CX9 than that of Pilot or Highlander. The FWD models of CX9 seems to be doing well as far as MPG is concerned.
Scion is 100% owned by Toyota and only offer 3 vehicles (if my memory serves me well). Mazda is only 30+% owned by Ford and offer many more vehicles than Scion.
So, I consider Scion is part of Toyota. Scion vehicles are sold as Toyota in Japan.
Mazda/Ford relationship is more distant. My nearby Ford/Mazda combo dealer only has 1 master technician for Mazda. When he is off, there is no Mazda repair scheduled.
This was listed as a reply to one of my posts but I have no idea what you are referring to. What "other two"? I haven't expressed an overall preference for any of the three vehicles discussed in this thread. I've listed pros and cons to each (way back in this thread). Someone asked today for an analysis of the navigation systems and I ranked the cars for that specifically, but that is hardly the only factor in an overall vehicle decision.
The Mazda CX-9 mpg's vary only 1 mpg from AWD and FWD applications. Also, it is 100% FWD until slippage occurs, and then up to 50% can be distributed to the rear as needed.
I would have loved a system like the Pilot's...but we didn't like the look of the Pilot at all, and it lacks a bit in power, imo......
what you described is a typical "passive" AWD. It detects slippage and reacts.
Mazda's ATS-AWD is called "active" for a reason. Here is what the Australian Mazda website describe the Mazda Speed6's AWD (similar one is used on CX7 and CX9)
...
http://www.mazda.com.au/Technology%20and%20Environment/Driving%20technology/Acti- ve%20Torque%20Split.aspx
...
On top of that, there are three modes
Normal, Sports and Snow plus a Power TakeOff module to assist fast acceleration
by sending more torque to the rear. It also adjust torque split at turns. i.e. it is more active than passive.
However, I can't seem to able to find the 90/10 torque-split that the prevous post refers to.
Anyway, the speed-lockout on Toyota/Mazda is a big headache. Buyers be aware of it. One needs to buy an aftermarket kit to bypass it (essentially cuts the VSS input to the NAVI unit when needed).
In the Mazda, if you are on dry pavement and going straight, the system reads 100:0. If you enter a corner or are on optimum driving pavement (wet or slippery) then you are anywhere from 100:0 to 50:50. The power distribution is measured in torque, not total power or horsepower.
This is from a speed6 driving event pamphlet.
The AWD on the CX-7/9 is almost the same, but the mounting for the rear diff is much more secure, along with a cheaper setup that isn't as performance oriented (no limited slip)
http://i33.tinypic.com/24q1k0p.jpg
I can't find the link to where I found out it's 90/10 but it is.
If I couldn't have iPod with Bluetooth, then I would just buy an AUX in cable and control the iPod myself. The click wheel makes that possible because it's simple, I can change songs without looking.
The Australian Mazda website seems to disagree....
"A new rear differential with greater torque capacity is employed by the system to deliver a high level of reliability. Increased torsional rigidity of the propeller shaft and rear differential mount improves the response of torque transfer to the rear wheels and delivers a more rigid feel to the ride under acceleration. And a limited slip differential is used in the rear differential optimizes transfer of torque to the left and right rear wheels, realizing solid traction and linear vehicle control that delivers a stable feeling ride when cornering."
Honda Pilot: 7486
Toyota Highlander: 6763 (including Hybrid)
Mazda CX9: 1965
(others, competiting)
GM Lambdas (triplet only): 11,600 (combined)
Acura MDX: 3477
This may seem like CX9 is selling poorly, when in fact it holds steady compared with 2007. Both Pilot and Highlander were selling at nearly 13,000/month July last year. So, both dropped nearly 50% compared with last year's sales figures.
This is from a speed6 driving event pamphlet.
I attended the Mazdaspeed6 driving event at Fort Worth TX in November 2005. What Mazda means by that is the rear diff is active, however, power is not being applyed to the rear wheels. The rear diff is active the rest of the time and power is applied as needed. There was an extensive Q & A session that related to Mazdas ATS AWD system.
I have the Mazdaspeed6 drive event guide book too.
There are still some out there that think Mazda's AWD system is a Haldex system. That, is not true either.
I know the default setting of the system in my Explorer waits until slippage occurs, and it can be felt to an extent (unless I pop it into 4WD-Hi or Lo of course). But the system in our Escape is seamless and I've never felt the front wheels slip or ever even noticed that it was in 4WD mode. And yes, it is a "4WD" model.
Honda Pilot: 7486
Toyota Highlander: 6763 (including Hybrid)
Mazda CX9: 1965
(others, competiting)
GM Lambdas (triplet only): 11,600 (combined)
Acura MDX: 3477
This may seem like CX9 is selling poorly, when in fact it holds steady compared with 2007. Both Pilot and Highlander were selling at nearly 13,000/month July last year. So, both dropped nearly 50% compared with last year's sales figures.
My interpretation of the above:
Both Pilot and Highlander sold poorly this year, dropping nearly 50% to only 7,4++ and 6,7++ respectively, though these figures are still far better than the CX9 which is steadily selling poorly at a current level of 1,9++
Regardless of the figures, i believe that all three have their own strengths and weakness and each may certainly appeal differently to everyone.
The AWD is seemless, wheel spin never happens, unlike the reactive system on the Highlander. The Honda has a system that isn't as generous to send power to the rear, most Ridgeline owners report poor snow performance, they share the same AWD.
Toyota's press release has the following numbers for the Highlander:
July 2008: 6,763
July 2007: 8,858
DSR Change: -29.5%
Source: http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2008080117514
A 30% drop is not good, but that's not quite the "13,000/month" and corresponding "50%" drop that you're claiming.
YTD numbers for the Highlander are off just 8% compared to 2007.
Now, on Ford's AWD Explorer and Mountaineer, that is a true full time AWD system that has a center diff and can distribute power virtually to any single wheel. The Edge/Fusion/Flex do not have a center diff, and cannot do that. They can only send power from front to back, not side to side (like the Explorer / Mountaineer AWD can) unless equipped with limited slip , like the Mazdaspeed6.
Honda's SH-AWD is far more advanced then Ford/Mazda and Toyota in this case. SH-AWD is more like Subaru's Symmetrical AWD or Audi's Quattro (non Haldex Quattro).
In my opinion, Mazda's system works very well with how they build cars. While there system is not the most advanced, their total vehicle package (suspension, steering and braking) assist in how well the car will grip the road in addition to the AWD system. In dry conditions, the CX-9 (or any Mazda AWD vehicle) is glued to the road. For example the Mazdaspeed6 has much better road manners then the Legacy GT Spec B which has a FAR more advanced AWD system, but can't handle or grip the road like the MS6 can.
In foul weather, the CX-9 will do just fine. The cars weight helps keep the car dug into the snow, and the AWD keep you moving. It does do quite well.
One thing to remember with any AWD vehicle. It is not how good the AWD system is, but rather how well it works with the vehicle that was built upon it. AWD is not everything. You need a total package (brakes, tires, suspension, ans steering) to compliment the AWD system so you can get the most out of it. It is up to the individual to asses what they think a total package is. Is it dry road handing? Is it deep snow driving? That is why all these cars are so different. One car is not better then the other for every situation.
Indeed, I overlooked the sales figure of Highlander for July,2007. In May, 2007, Highlander sold almost 12,000 unit. Check autodeadline.com for data.
I assumed that two months should not make such drop in sales. Boy! I was wrong!
My mistake in that sense.
On AWD, I need to check my CX9 workshop menual to see if there is any reference to the aforementioned limited slip differential.
I assumed that two months should not make such drop in sales. Boy! I was wrong!
My mistake in that sense.
No problem. I can understand viewing roughly 2,000 units as nothing more than a rounding error when you're talking about sales volume.
I don't remember when the 2008 Highlander first hit dealers' lots last summer, but I wouldn't be surprised if sales dropped as the '07s were blown out and the '08s made their way to shore.
In any case, I don't think it really matters if one vehicle sells more than another. Mass market popularity doesn't necessarily equate to superiority.
You did mean 1,000 right?
(13000-12000 = 1000, not 2000)
1000/12000 is about 8% off.
True, the Highlander sale dropped because of '08 coming out. Between 12/06 to 05/07 Highlander was selling between 10,000 to 12,000 every month.
The Ford press release I posted stated several times that the AWD system in the Fusion, and a couple of other models, does shift power to individual wheels. That's the first I've heard of that too and I'm just fishing to see if anyone knows if it's true or not.
Based on the information in this article that I the original question was posed, I'm guessing no one will say it is true. :shades:
Dunno what CX-9 purchasers cross-shop with though,
To me, the extra horse power/torque is not why I buy SUV/CUV for. I can complete understand the point of high-end luxury and sports car requiring premium fuel, though. People who buy them probably could care less about gas price.
People are getting a fully loaded 2008 CX9 (MSRP for $40K+) for $31K to $33K. According to you, that is still less than the "base" model of MDX. Granted, MDX is more sporty (pulling 0.84g instead of 0.8g) and has better SH-AWD (instead of ATS-AWD). MDX is not as dominating as few years ago when Acura can charge mark-up over MSRP for them. Those days are long gone.
I considered MDX before I bought CX9, but few things turned me off.
- expensive (at least $8000 more comparably equipped - MSRP-wise)
- small (wider but smaller in all else)
- premium gas
- no SmartKey (I am addicted to it. My key is always in my pocket.)
- Acura does not give you better service than Honda/Toyota/Mazda but charge
you more for it.
Compare that to 20 cents when the gas prices were $1.30 ., it was over 15% extra on your total gas bill compared to the unleaded gas bill !!
One of my cars accepts both, with regular/unleaded it gives decent performance, while with Premium gas, it gives out about 4% more horses with lean burning and better compression (company spec numbers, I am not making up ..). So, when/if I find a gas station with only 20 cents over unleaded prices, I rather fill-up with premium these days (see the above 5% only extra in bill point). But I do see there are a few gas stations - that want to charge 30 cents or more for premium., if their regular price is decent, I simply go with regular gas.
By all means - I won't recommend premium for cars that are happy with regular gas, and have no added benefit with Premium gas ..
But seriously, there's no control mechanism on the CX-9 front or rear differential. The coupler is magnetic and mounts on the input side of the rear differential. So, call it Active Torque Split or whatever, you can still get stuck spinning two wheels.
A computer controls the AWD, using 34434 sensors to do so.
Based on that, it seems like you can get a fully loaded (nav, RES, etc.) Toyota for not less than $35K. The fully loaded Honda Touring can be had for less than $34K and the fully loaded Mazda GT for $31-32K... All three are offering special financing with Mazda having the most agreesive terms and Toyota the least. However, the Honda deals allow both the financing and dealer incentives to be combined which the others do not (though some have reported getting the best deals from Mazda anyway and still getting the financing).
From a per economic viewpoint, the Toyota is the worst value and the CX-9 the best. The Toyota is also the only one in the bunch with no memory seats and with the least overall seating roominess. But it obviously has other benefits...
I own a CX-9.
This is ironic since he Honda is an '09. They are really bending over backwards to move these... Don't know if that is a good or bad sign.
That's because many like to lie about what they pay. Sites like these can sometimes do more harm then good and cause people to walk away from a good deal because of some of the garbage they read on the internet.
Common everyone, you can't believe EVERYTHING you read on the internet!!!
And right now there's some amazing deals out there. There's "secret" money to the tune of $4,500 on the CX-9 (dealer cash) and those deals are being posted about here, on Fatwallet, SlickDeals.net, etc. Civics are going for $500 under invoice and some people back in Ohio, iirc, were buying new Quests for $10,000 off MSRP a couple of weeks back.
Sounds a lot more believable to me than claims of a rubber Bigfoot in someone's freezer. :P
Yes, there are great deals out there, no question. But, lets be honest here...not everyone here is totally honest with what they pay.
On CX9, the recent deals on newspaper of SF Bay Area is about $7500-$8000 off MSRP. That includes the $4500 cash rebate from Mazda if not taking the 0% financing.
First, Mazda has image problem more than reliability problem. Some people only consider Honda/Toyota. Mazda probably is not even on their shopping list. It takes time for people to rediscover their interest in Mazda vehicles again. Overall, Mazda is doing very well. The sales numbers, revenue and profit show that. In fact, Mazda is the best performing company under Ford's control (~31% owned)
Second, many people truly believe in CR (consumer reports) when it has been very biased toward Toyota/Honda for a long time now. They claimed MAZDA CX9 has poor 150+ft of stopping distance from 60mph, when in fact CX9 has one of the best stopping distance among its class (averaging 135-140ft from all magazine tests). That must have turned off many potential buyers. (one of my friends questioned me about it since I bought a CX9.) I don't blame them since Toyota/Honda vehicles are always good bet.
Apparently, many new owners have issues with the electronics as well. What else is new? The electronics in automobiles is getting more and more complex.
BTW, if there are electronics problems, its not the same issue as the CX-9 if that's what you're comparing it too. The CX-9 electronics issues aren't bugs, they are by-design limitations; simply the choices Mazda made, for better or worse. They chose to prioritize other things, like the drive, and unfortunately all the cars made compromises and for Mazda it was the cabin tech. Since that's not a priority for many buyers, assuming they did their market research right it may have been a smart decision. It just wasn't compatible with my priorities, and those of some other posters.
I counted two people reported problems with Bluetooth so far.
(one of the two is you if I am correct).
Also, I have heard that the nav system has been upgraded with more user friendly features.