PZEV Considerations
I'm looking at the 2009 Foresters and have the option to buy one with PZEV engineering. I'm not in a state which requires that technology but would probably get it just on principle unless there are significant drawbacks to it (mileage, power, etc.)
Any information on the trade-offs between the two engines?
Thx,
Ron
Any information on the trade-offs between the two engines?
Thx,
Ron
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
You actually get 5 extra horses, or 175hp total.
Throttle response is immediate even at low revs. Acceleration on the highway is much more responsive than the 165hp 2002 Legacy it replaced, and that Legacy had the advantage of being a manual transmission.
My wife and I drove out of town on Wednesday and had a friendly competition - she averaged 30.0 mpg driving up, while I only managed 27.0mpg coming back, though I think my speeds were higher. So we're quite pleased with the fuel efficiency we're getting, too. High so far was 34 mpg, with a low of 22mpg in city driving.
Besides the 5hp, another potential benefit is that all the emissions equipment is designed to last at least 150,000 miles, because in PZEV states (NY, CA) the emissions warranty is that long.
I'm not sure if the regular, non-PZEV engine is all that different, but these and the obvious green benefits of the PZEV upgrade were well worth it to us.
In the older days this was not possible, so the engine ended up being detuned which hurt power. Things like lower compression, ultra-lean fuel mixtures, and retarded timing caused lower performance, poor economy, and a lousy running engine in general. In those days the fine tuning was done by adding extra controls each designed to handle certain things, and many times they didn't all work very well together.
On paper, if an engine could be 100% efficient it would get fantastic power output and fuel mileage, and truly be zero emissions. Since this is not possible there will always have to be something like a catalytic converter to clean up what does come out the exhaust pipe. The combination of fuel economy standards and emission policies has driven the technology to a great place.
Juice has a PZEV and it is not broken in yet, but he is already getting great mileage... although his wife does better.
When you get ready to buy you may find out that what is on the lots is not exactly what you want anyway, so you might have something on a vehicle that could also cost $200 extra but not be the engine. When one has the luxury of being able to wait it is always nice to get exactly what you want via ordering one.
Also, "greener" is always a good thing so in a small way you would be helping the environment. Don't forget that the PZEV has a longer emission warranty too, 15 years or 150K miles. I don't know if Minnesota has any emission testing, but if so it can't hurt to have the buffer of a cleaner vehicle.
Here in MA we have no choice since we have used the CA emission policy for a lot of years. My wife and I have had 5 Foresters and have never had any complaints on how they run. My current one is an 06 with the 173HP and it is definitely noticeable over the older 165 HP ones, including my wife's 05 Bean.
I may never live that down.
Actually, we have passed 1000 miles, so we're officially broken in now.
The other day we took a highway trip about half hour each way, and round trip I managed to get 31.2mpg.
The average is always divisible by 0.3mpg, so it goes from 30.0mpg to 30.3, then 30.6, 30.9, 31.2, etc.
The EPA numbers are the same, PZEV compared to non-PZEV. Some people with non-PZEV models and manual transmissions have been besting our numbers routinely, so I don't think the PZEV is any more efficient.
I'll take the 5 extra HP, though.
As for should you or should you not, think of it this way - if you order one you'll know nobody ever test drove it. You can pick a color and customize your options, to get exactly what you want, untouched, untested, just for you.
Worth it IMHO.
-Frank
2 examples: warm up RPMs seem to be higher, and when you let off the throttle abruptly the RPMs don't drop as quickly as they seem to with non-PZEV models.
I'm sure at least the throttle mapping is different.
Plus, I doubt Subaru could claim a 5hp gain with no changes. These are SAE horses.
1. I hear brief engine pinging when accelerating while moving at lower speeds, especially going up hill or an incline. The pinging doesn't last long, I think the knock sensor kicks in. This occurs at lower RPMs. If you downshift using the accelerator the pinging doesn't occur. The dealer will check this next week when I bring it in to install an optional trim thing.
2. The A/C compressor cycles more frequently than I have experienced with other vehicles. This depends on the outside air temperature. I can measure (and feel) the outlet air temperature rising and falling. The dealer checked the cooling system and said the system was OK.
I'd forgotten that the column was in response to a Subaru Drive reader's question about the meaning of PZEV
-Frank
My wife and I just bought an '09 Legacy PZEV. We do notice a slight difference in warm-up to her older non-PZEV Forester with the same 2.5L engine; however, once warmed up, there appears to be no difference in idle at all. Performance seems on par or slightly better in the new vehicle, which I would expect. As to mileage, can't say since we are comparing two different vehicles (Legacy vs. Forester); however, the new car already does get better mileage than the older one...
Robert
PS: We already are getting comments about the 'green leaf' PZEV badge on the back (we live in AZ, where it is not required) and people seem pleased that Subie would offer this as an option here in our state...it also makes us feel that we are contributing, if only somewhat, to cleaner air.
I called Subaru Corporate Customer Service. Waste of time. The customer service person said all they do when an owner calls with service, operation, mechanical concerns is for Subaru to call the dealer's service manager. I made an appointment for next week to bring it in so that not only can the service writer drive with me but also the service manager.
Subaru apparently doesn't have a system for logging problems, they rely on the local dealers.
Subaru apparently doesn't have a system for logging problems, they rely on the local dealers.
Actually, your issue was logged (as are all calls). Subaru (like all manufacturers) wants to resolve any problem at the lowest level, hence the reason they referred you to the local dealer. However, if the dealer is unable to resolve your problem, it will be escalated to the district/regional level and then finally to corporate if necessary.
-Frank
Thanks for the help - my internet research has not been helpful!
If you check with one of your emission testing facilities I bet it is the same in NJ.
Now, if only the dealers had any clue....