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I have a lanyard that I attached to the FOB and hang it around my neck. Hang it on my neck first thing in the morning and take it if the last thing at night. Always with me. Doesn't solve the problem discussed but keeps me from laying it down some place in or out of the car and forgetting it. Also makes it easy to leave the FOB with the dealer (or other mechanic) and don't have to remove a car key from my key ring that has all of my house, etc. keys on. I put pushbutton locks on the doors to my house so I no longer carry a house key (no holes in pant pockets).
This really does sound like an issue that could have very negative results. If you leave you start you car, go back inside and leave the FOB, then you get miles away from home and shut the car off you are stuck there until someone takes you back to get the thing? Would a call to onstar get the car started again? Makes me sort of glad I have the base model with a key. DAVE 2010 LaCrosse
I did the same thign to my rim. Have you looke dinto any options to have it replaced? Would this be worth an insurance claim?
bass21279, The damage is minor, just a scratch really, and probably one would not notice it unless they were looking very closely. However, the so-called alloy wheel is covered with a plastic coating so I am not sure how the scratch will age.
Thanks bwia. Mine is more of a larger scratch. My concern is that it is on the actual shiny chrmoe looking outer edge of the rim. So it is pretty noticeable. Darn aggravating to say the least.
They still have a base model with a regular key?? Thought they ALL had the FOB now....Guess I was mistaken....Was afraid I had made a mistake buying the 2009 Lacrosse, but it has been trouble free thus far....It may not have all the latest gizmos, but it does have a trunk opening switch on BOTH the driver and passenger doors!!! I just wish the gas mileage were better, my only real complaint about the car....
Thanks for the information. I once 40 feet away from the car with the key in my pocket and car still run, 40 feet is already not acceptable. At the time I thought may be it will shutoff at a 100 feet or so in case you need to get into your house to get something. I got the say less than 10 feet seem reasonable farther than that, engine should shut off. I hope they can have software update or something to fix it. Thanks again
I am surprised that somone who monitors this forum has not responded to this MAJOR issue!!!! I certainly will address this with my dealership the next time I take my car in for servicing. I am pretty sure they (dealership) will go DAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
You guys are all assuming that this is a "defect". That presumes that this was not the intended method of operation. I can't imagine that the designers were expecting people to walk out of the car with the vehicle running, taking their FOB with them, and just leave it there that way. Somewhere along the line, the driver has some personal responsibility here.
I agree it is and it should be programmed that way. Since I keep the FOB with me all the time I do not want to turn it off if I have to run into the house to get something I forgot.
Besides wouldn't that stop the remote start from being able to work?
The CXS came back from the dealer yesterday with 4 new Michelins, all road force balanced, wheel lugs torqued, tire pressure balanced, and a 4-wheel alignment check with the toe slightly adjusted. I think the vibration has been eliminated. I will have to hold judgment until I get the car on the road where I can hold a 60-70 mph driving speed. But up to 55mph, the car now seems bearable to drive.
Interestingly enough, I saw three 4 stacks of Michelins on the way out of the dealer garage. One of the stacks were the OEM's that came off my car. There were two other stacks of 4 NEW tires. Obviously, I was not the only person who had trouble and the tires seemed to be the problem. A bad bunch of Michelin tires?? I don't know.
This is a quote from a tire engineer that had input into the development of the road force machine. This is directly quoted from the 'tire and wheel' section of another forum. The engineer addressed several questions the forum members had. Remember, you asked:
I'm one of the four engineers who designed the Hunter GSP9700 Road Force Balancer. There is some of my hardware and software in that product.
Let's take 'em one at a time.
Quote: Originally Posted by simon barsinister View Post Michelin states to get a representative to examine the tires, they need to be road forced balanced first. Tire place I bought them from states they'll pay for it. Michelin bought the first six GSP9700's off the production line after a thorough qualification of the product. In essence, Michelin is quite satisfied that the GSP9700 accurately measures what it measures.
So, let's look at just what the GSP9700 measures, shall we?
A tire is not necessarily round. Its tread surface does not necessarily describe a perfect circle. What is most important is, "Is it round while rolling?" The first step in using a GSP9700 is to measure just that.
A tire/wheel is mounted on the shaft of the GSP9700 and a roller is pressed against the tire as the shaft slowly rotates. The roller presses with a constant force of about 700 lbs (early version) or 1,400 lbs (later version). If the tire is perfectly "round while rolling", then the roller will roll with the tire but will not move otherwise, i.e. there will be no measured "runout" of the tread surface. If the tire is not "round while rolling", then the roller, which is mounted on an arm, will move back and forth, toward and away from the shaft of the GSP9700, as it rotates, i.e. it will measure the "loaded runout" of the tire.
Now, how significant is that runout?
Here is what happens: Suppose the tire rolls along a perfectly flat surface (i.e. a really good road), and suppose its axle is mounted to an assembly that keeps the axle at exactly the same distance from that surface. If the tread surface is perfectly round while rolling, then the force exerted by the axle on the wheel (which, of course, is the same as the force exerted by the tire on the wheel), will be constant as the tire rolls along. As a "high spot" in the tread circumference, i.e. a "high spot" in the loaded runout, rolls into contact with that surface, then the tire pushes upward against the axle with a little more force than average, right? As a "low spot" in the tread circumference, i.e. a "low spot" in the loaded runout, rolls into contact with that surface, then the tire pushes upward against the axle with a little less force than average, right? That variation in the upward force the loaded tire exerts against the axle tries to make the axle move up and down as the tire rotates. In a vehicle, it does make the axle move up and down. It feels like an out-of-balance tire/wheel assembly.
Interesting, huh? The nominal scale factor is that a measured runout of 0.001 inch corresponds to about one pound of "road force". That's where the term "road force" originates.
It isn't enough to just measure the loaded runout of the tire, though. Why not? Because the wheel isn't perfectly round at the bead seating surface, either. You could mount a perfect tire on a wheel that isn't round and you would get the same effect as mounting a tire that isn't round on a perfect wheel.
So, what's a feller to do?
The GSP9700 can also measure the runout of the wheel. It uses a small roller against the rim on each side to measure its runout. Then, with a bit of arithmetic, it can determine how much of the loaded runout at the tread is due to the wheel and how much is due to the tire.
That's what Michelin wants measured. They want to know the loaded runout (measured in thousandths of an inch or in pounds) of the tire. If it's too much, then the tire is defective. Michelin understands this quite well.
So far, all we've discussed is how road force is measured. What, then is a "road force balance"?
Once the operator has measured the loaded runout of the tire and the runout of the wheel, the GSP9700 computes how to minimize the net loaded runout of the assembly. The operator makes a chalk mark on the outer sidewall of the tire and another on the rim, as directed by the GSP9700. He then removes the assembly from the shaft, deflates the tire, breaks the beads loose from the wheel, and rotates the tire on the wheel to align the two marks. Then he re-seats the beads, re-inflates the tire, and re-mounts the assembly on the GSP9700.
What this does is mount the "high spot" of the loaded runout of the tire at the "low spot" of the runout of the wheel, which minimizes the net runout of the whole assembly as measured at the tread. The proof is in the puddin', as the saying goes. The GSP9700 re-measures the loaded runout, at which time the operator can see just how much better it is.
It is not necessarily going to be perfect, because the loaded runout of the tire does not necessarily equal the runout of the wheel. The procedure is more correctly described as a "compensation" than a "correction", as one defect is used to compensate for another.
That procedure is called a "road force balance". Note that a road force balance has nothing to do with mounting weights on the wheel. Once the road force balance is completed, then the whole assembly has to be spun by the balancer, its imbalance measured, and weights applied to correct the imbalance, in the usual manner.
The result is that you can have a wheel/tire assembly that has significant road force imbalance but is in perfect weight balance, and you can have a wheel/tire assembly that has significant weight imbalance but is in perfect road force balance. Either condition can cause vibration that you can feel. You gotta get 'em both right, and it takes a separate procedure for each one to do that.
But, you can't get road force balance perfect, as I noted above. How good is good enough? Usually about 25 lbs of road force imbalance is a threshold above which you can begin to feel vibrations from it.
Is this real? Damned right it is. EVERY wheel and tire put on new vehicles is road force balanced at the factory.
Quote: Originally Posted by simon barsinister View Post Sound simple? Here's the problem after visting a few places to talk about the process:
Tire warehouse - $17/tire - road force balances by placing 700 lb load on tire to 'flatten' any high spots in tire? Huh?! Another place tells me this just reseats the bead of the tire. Pressing the roller against the tire does help to seat the beads of the tire. The tire should be mounted using lots of high quality tire mounting lubricant. Don't skimp on lubricant. Lube the tire bead and lube the wheel bead seat. When the tire runout is measured, the whole assembly rotates more times than is necessary, with the extra rotations being at the start; their only purpose is
their only purpose is the help seat the beads properly.
But, the purpose of the roller is not to flatten any high spots in the tire. If that worked, then the roller wouldn't measure any runout, would it? The vehicle would do that when it rolls down the road, wouldn't it? If that worked, then there wouldn't be any need for a road force balancer, would there? But every wheel and tire put on new vehicles is road force balanced at the factory. You can bet your last dollar that it's necessary.
So, Tire Warehouse needs some training, right?
Quote: Originally Posted by simon barsinister View Post Town fair tire - $13/tire - will road force balance only if machine states is necessary. Single iteration of matching high spot on tire to low spot on rim. Tech states that you can still have a vibration problem since no tire will balance perfectly. Bingo! Dead right. This shop knows how to use the machine.
Quote: Originally Posted by simon barsinister View Post Sullivan tire #1: $13/tire - machine has two buttons, one for regular balance, the other for road force. Road forcing is just as simple as hitting the button. But, what about matching high spot on tire to low spot on rim? Oh, that's extra. $30/tire This shop is clueless. They REALLY need training.
Quote: Originally Posted by simon barsinister View Post Sullivan tire #2: $25/tire - performs multiple iterations of matching high spot on tire to low spot on rim. States no such thing as a defective tire unless road force balancer cannot provide a correction to balance weight. Amost right. The tire's loaded runout is fixed and the wheel's runout is fixed. There is only so much "compensation" that can be done. That's why tires don't have to be perfect. They have to be good enough. That's why I use ONLY Michelin tires. They are better, in my opinion, than all the others.
Quote: Originally Posted by simon barsinister View Post Why are there soooo many variations on how road force balancing is done. The GSP9700 is a complex and sophisticated machine, and the whole process is subtle and ingenious. Some people understand it and some don't. The problem is that those who don't understand it often don't know that they don't understand it. You should not necessarily conclude that they are trying to cheat anyone, rather you should simply identify them and go elsewhere.
So this sounds like RoadForce balancing is one time thing. If the RoadForce operation has the operator move the tire and rim so their runouts counter each other and that gives the minimum runout for the combination, then they are done.
Successive rebalancing does not use the runout gauging wheel. They simply apply a dynamic balance, because the wheel and tire have already been moved relative to each other to minimize runout under the car's weight.
I had thought the runout measurement was used in the dynamic balance to compensate for the remaining runout. But now I learn it's a two step process. And successive rebalancing upon tire rotation only uses the dynamic balancing.
hello i am new to this site and was just wondering if anyone else has the same probelms as i do. this is only my second day having this car and already when i start the car up it sound like the battery is going dead or the starter grinding not sure what it is but just wanted to see if anyone else has the same problem .
Mine starts almost without a sound (doors and windows all closed). Never seen this reported before - better go back to the dealer and have it checked. You might want to start another Lacrosse on the dealer floor to see if there is a difference.
Had my Lacrosse back into the dealer (different dealer) and they verified and have ordered a drivers seat module to correct the present problem of it working maybe half the time. Will take a week or so to get it in. I forgot to get the part number. Will report on it when received.
They also tried to duplicate the "pause" that I get in slowly driving up a small incline at a low speed and trying to speed up. They were unable to duplicate the problem. It seems to be correcting itself as I have only had it happen once now in the last couple of weeks. Anyway as long as I know it is there I can change my driving habits and be careful in that condition.
"successive rebalancing upon tire rotation only uses the dynamic balancing."
From Mr. Goodwrench........When 4 tires and wheels are used in a balancing session, the road force balancing machine even recommends the placement of the tire/wheel on the car. Sad to say, unless the same procedure is used again at tire rotation, the RFB may be all for naught.
Apparently GM does not yet have a fix for the faulty memory seat module. I got a call from the dealer saying that the module they had ordered for my car still has not arrived but instead they want me to come back next week so that they can do some diagnostic tests to report back to GM. This is not a big deal to me as I am the only driver of my car so I have no reason to adjust my seat except for cleaning and vacuuming. Nevertheless, I will report back as soon as I know more.
By the way, I have seriously fallen in love with my CXS and this afternoon I recorded my first CD to the hard drive. I couldn’t believe it was so easy. Now I know how to do that I will begin transferring all my CDs to the hard drive. Isn’t technology great?
I was looking at 2 different Lacrosse CXSs today and have questions about the wheel choices.
One car had 18" chrome wheels. This was the first set I had seen up close and I was disappointed. I believe they are the "chrome-clad" style that GM and some other automakers have moved to, with a separate chrome cap that is mated to the non-plated wheel core. I think true chrome-plated alloys like that offered on the '09 Lacrosse Super and Lucerne among others look much better. Can anyone confirm these are the chrome-clad style?
The second CXS had the 19" wheel option, non-chrome in this instance. It looked good, but the tire sidewall seemed almost nonexistent. Can anyone offer a perspective on whether these are a reasonable choice, or does ride suffer too much?
I have the 19" wheels and I believe the ride suffers. In addition I hit a rock which caused the alunimun wheel to have a 6" gash in the wheel itself and caused enought damage to the tire that both had to be replaced at a cost of $1000. Given the choice again I would not choose the 19" wheels for this car. I believe the damage done with the rock indicats to me that it could happen again. I also believe that the tire could be damaged more easily - it simply would not absorb the bumps which may cause it to crush against the rim. The replacement of the 19" tires is very expensive.
Thanks for the information - it will be interesting to see if the same thing happens to me. The part should of been ordered on Wednesday this last week (it is now Saturday) and I am not expecting anything until this coming mid week. Will report what I find out.
Regarding starter problems. No Starter or Engine problems at all. We picked our 2010 CXL up on 7/8 and now have 1900 miles, mostly highway. OUTSTANDING performance with 18 in town and as high as 29 average on 1500 mile trip. Remote start on this model also that works great. Car actually runs too quiet at idle - just enough rumble at speed to get right feedback. The 6-speed is setup for maximum mileage that explains the downshifts on big grades. Key has been to "drive aggressively" as one poster stated - that takes away the downshifts. Max mileage was 32 on level road at 70 MPH with 3.0L V-6. All on regular gas- not premium that is a supply problem during gas shortages in the past with many of the riceburners and turbos. Buick has a winner in our opinion with a 4000# great road car that handles well in town also. Terrific fit & finish with all the options for a VERY competitive price.
Well surely you would agree that the way it is now, it is not conducive to resisting theft and car jacking? Don't you think it would be very cool to see your car stop automatically once the thief/car jacker got down the to the end of the block?
Having cars running while going back into the house to get something invites accidents with children, and at the very least, is a fuel waster.
I have said before and I'll say it again, we don't NEED push button starting! Keys worked so well for a century. Imagine the concept...you insert a key to the ignition switch which belongs in the car of the owner who owns and authorizes the use of said key in said car. And guess what?! This same key can do wonders in its ability to also turn the car off and secure it for its owner later! This is down by simply turning it counterclockwise and voila! Engine turns off and steering column locks. Amazing tech. Worked like clockwork for a hundred years.
Anyway, don't take offense to my facetiousness here ok? I am merely pointing out that....so what? We have the ability to do this.....and do that......gadgets smagets. :roll eyes: At a certain point, this is all superfluous flotsamic carp. Carp that will just quit working and inconvenience you at the worst possible moment. And it will be Murphy's Law. Murphy is never far away. (no offense to any Murphy's out there either) lol
I have the 19 inch that come with the Touring package. For me, its not even close when considering the look of the car with the 19 inch versus the 18 inch chrome. The 19 inch wins hands down. It looks like a completely different car which each rim. Maybe if they came out with another design for the 18 inch chrome wheels it would look better. I have no issues with the ride on the 19 inch rims. I think they did a good job compensating the high profile tires with adequate suspension.
I specifically asked not to have the Touring package because of the 19" wheels. I prefer a softer ride with less tire noise. I think the 18" chrome wheels look awesome and definitely not too small for the car.
I agree the push button start up is somewhat overkill, but I wonder if it's done for safety reasons, much like Saab has done for many years.
Does anybody find the gas pedal a bit heavy? My wife's Caddy has the same engine (3.6L) and I find my CXS gas pedal heavy to push. Just curious?
Apparently GM does not yet have a fix for the faulty memory seat module. I got a call from the dealer saying that the module they had ordered for my car still has not arrived but instead they wanted me to come back next week so that they can do some diagnostic tests to report back to GM. This is not a big deal to me as I am the only driver of my car so I have no reason to adjust my seat except for cleaning and vacuuming. Nevertheless, I will report back as soon as I know more.
*Update*
With egg on my face I must confess the problem was with me and not with the memory seat module. File that one under operator error and apologies to Buick and GM. Anyway, after hooking the car up to the computer the GM diagnostic test showed no reportable conditions. So after the technician demonstrated how to set the memory seat properly it worked like a charm. Again, my apologies to the nice guys at my Buick dealership and to the GM tech guys in Detroit!
Would you please let us know what to do and what you were doing wrong? I think there are many others that are doing the same thing and need to know what to do to use it properly. Thank you!
I ran across an article that explained that the key fob and the memory set buttons on teh side of the seats are not tied in together. The thing I guess I still don't understand is when I get out and lock the car by touching the door, and come back and unlock it by lifting on the door handle, what is telling the seat to move? I haven't used the key fob or touched the memory recall button........................
The link you referenced is 100% correct. The problem that all of us are experiencing is that when the auto recall is activated thru the audio system and one key fob is always used and the door is locked with the outside handle button and then you walk up and open the door the seat returns to the programmed position only 50% of the time. The operation is inconsistent. That is what we want a fix for.
This is what the technician shared with me which is an exact copy of the owners manual.
To save your positions in memory: 1. Adjust the driver seat, including the seatback recliner and both outside mirrors to a comfortable position. 2. Press and hold MEM and button 1 until the beep lets you know that the position has been stored.
A second seating and mirror position can be programmed by repeating the above steps and pressing button 2.
To recall the memory positions, press and hold either button 1 or button 2 corresponding to the desired driving position. The seat and outside mirrors move to the position previously stored. Releasing the button before the stored position is reached cancels the recall.
Using the Remote Keyless Entry (RKE) transmitter to enter the vehicle with the remote recall memory feature on causes automatic seat and mirror adjustment associated with that transmitter. There is no adjustment when the position has not been changed by another seating position.
To stop recall movement of the memory feature at any time, press one of the power seat controls, memory buttons, or power mirror buttons.
If something has blocked the driver seat while recalling a memory position, the driver seat recall may stop working. If this happens, press the appropriate control for the area that is not recalling for two seconds, after the obstruction is removed.
Then try recalling the memory position again by pressing the appropriate memory button. If the memory position is still not being recalled, see your dealer/retailer for service.
We have a separate problem with the memory seats on the 2010 CSX; the seat continually loses its programming, i.e. setting 1 and 2 separately, eventually 2 adopts 1's setting and vice versa. Since it's so unpredictable when this failure happens, it's impossible to reproduce.
I did the same thign to my rim. Have you looke dinto any options to have it replaced? Would this be worth an insurance claim?
bass21279 --- What do you know, the dealer fixed the scratch on my 19" rims and it looks as good as new, so good in fact you cannot differentiate the repair from the other wheels. I don't know how they did it but essentially the body shop removed the rim from the tire, polished the rim and then applied the factory coating to make it look exactly like the other wheels. They said they had done the same thing for an elderly woman who had more extensive damage on both passenger side rims.
Cost? No charge. He said since they had not paired my cell phone or properly explained the operation of the memory seat when I took delivery then the wheel repair was complimentary and on the house. Hmm! pretty nice, even treating me like a Lexus customer. Heck, for the price I paid for this car I think I deserve it. Way to go Buick.
When I buy a new car, I normally completely flush transmission oil out of the car and put new oil after 1000 miles to remove any metal residue from the system. When I tried to do that at the Buick dealer where I purchased my LaCrosse, I was warned not to do that at a gas station or an auto repairing shop because the oil was "so fine tuned to the car that it may mess up the transmission". Also, I was told to make sure to use GM-certified transmission oil in order to ensure the quality of the car. Because of this, they wanted to charge me over $200 completely change the transmission oil. I find this too phony. Any suggestion?
I would not change the transmission fluid. The GM transmissions have filters. The pans have magnets to remove any magnetic material that might not have been removed when the transmission was machined.
Replacing fluid should be done only with the correct GM fluid. Personally I'd use GM fluid to replace the part that would drain out; or I'd use a quality brand equivalent that meets the stated GM specs on the bottle. I'd leave the current fluid in for 70-80K miles assuming a 100K mile change referenced for light duty. Check your manual.
Same for the engine oil. There's no need to replace after 20 miles or 1000 miles.
Changing out the transmission fluid so early is mostly a wise tail. You run risk of causing more harm than you're helping. When it does come to the fluid, it is very important you only use the exact GM Dexron fluid that is original to the vehicle. There is nothing "better" than what is in there, and that's the exact fluid the transmission was designed around using.
As for changing it, if you insist, the fee your Buick dealer gave you is not abnormal. Proper fluid, filter, etc. For the job that has to be done, that's not an unusual cost.
We must be or others are not using AM. Just like when I posted all of my Service items. No one ever posted anything they had fixed by the dealer. Just wait and see what transpires. Going to dealer next month for oil change and check up.
Where I live there are 20+ FM stations locally but no more AM -- the last went off the air a year or so ago. So if there was poor reception I would never know.
I did test the AM on my '09 Allure a few months ago at night, and it managed to pull in some distant signals. I remember that the AM on my '02 Intrigue that had a similar rear window antenna was not great.
I took my Lacrosse in to check the seat module (works correctly about half the time). Dealer said there was a new module and they ordered it. The module number that was installed was part # 1 13577747. I tried to find out if this was just a same replacement of the original module or an entirely new one (as they previously indicated). No one had an answer. Maybe someone here can answer.
Module installed today but have not really tested it out to any extent. Will test and report back my findings. Hopefully this will solve the problem that so many of us have had.
By the way when they replaced the module they had to update the software and in the process of updating it destroyed all of the radio settings. The nav setting were still there intact.
So far the seat is working as it should. It goes back when I get out of the car (as it always has) and then when I return it goes forward as it should. Gone through 10 or 12 cycles at this point without a hitch.
Also it no longer seems to sound a tone when I get out of the car and I drag over the three buttons. Have not tried the second FAB.
That is the AM station that I listen to and have problems with in the CXS. In my other cars, it is as clear as a bell. Even on my Cell phone it is clearer than in my CXS. I will have that checked out next month. I just got another offer from XM satellite radio. They will give me 5 months for $20.00. Sorry, don't want it need it. Thanks Rainman5542 for your info.
Is there anyone having the noises in their steering, only when I turn right while the car is standing still. Ihad it back to the Dealer, they were in contact with GM who stated as of now there is no fix, they are working on the problem, my car is a 2010 Buick Lacrosse awd
Comments
Makes me sort of glad I have the base model with a key.
DAVE
2010 LaCrosse
bass21279, The damage is minor, just a scratch really, and probably one would not notice it unless they were looking very closely. However, the so-called alloy wheel is covered with a plastic coating so I am not sure how the scratch will age.
I hope they can have software update or something to fix it.
Thanks again
Besides wouldn't that stop the remote start from being able to work?
The CXS came back from the dealer yesterday with 4 new Michelins, all road force balanced, wheel lugs torqued, tire pressure balanced, and a 4-wheel alignment check with the toe slightly adjusted. I think the vibration has been eliminated. I will have to hold judgment until I get the car on the road where I can hold a 60-70 mph driving speed. But up to 55mph, the car
now seems bearable to drive.
Interestingly enough, I saw three 4 stacks of Michelins on the way out of the dealer garage. One of the stacks were the OEM's that came off my car. There were two other stacks of 4 NEW tires. Obviously, I was not the only person who had trouble and the tires seemed to be the problem. A bad bunch of Michelin tires?? I don't know.
I'm one of the four engineers who designed the Hunter GSP9700 Road Force Balancer. There is some of my hardware and software in that product.
Let's take 'em one at a time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon barsinister View Post
Michelin states to get a representative to examine the tires, they need to be road forced balanced first. Tire place I bought them from states they'll pay for it.
Michelin bought the first six GSP9700's off the production line after a thorough qualification of the product. In essence, Michelin is quite satisfied that the GSP9700 accurately measures what it measures.
So, let's look at just what the GSP9700 measures, shall we?
A tire is not necessarily round. Its tread surface does not necessarily describe a perfect circle. What is most important is, "Is it round while rolling?" The first step in using a GSP9700 is to measure just that.
A tire/wheel is mounted on the shaft of the GSP9700 and a roller is pressed against the tire as the shaft slowly rotates. The roller presses with a constant force of about 700 lbs (early version) or 1,400 lbs (later version). If the tire is perfectly "round while rolling", then the roller will roll with the tire but will not move otherwise, i.e. there will be no measured "runout" of the tread surface. If the tire is not "round while rolling", then the roller, which is mounted on an arm, will move back and forth, toward and away from the shaft of the GSP9700, as it rotates, i.e. it will measure the "loaded runout" of the tire.
Now, how significant is that runout?
Here is what happens: Suppose the tire rolls along a perfectly flat surface (i.e. a really good road), and suppose its axle is mounted to an assembly that keeps the axle at exactly the same distance from that surface. If the tread surface is perfectly round while rolling, then the force exerted by the axle on the wheel (which, of course, is the same as the force exerted by the tire on the wheel), will be constant as the tire rolls along. As a "high spot" in the tread circumference, i.e. a "high spot" in the loaded runout, rolls into contact with that surface, then the tire pushes upward against the axle with a little more force than average, right? As a "low spot" in the tread circumference, i.e. a "low spot" in the loaded runout, rolls into contact with that surface, then the tire pushes upward against the axle with a little less force than average, right? That variation in the upward force the loaded tire exerts against the axle tries to make the axle move up and down as the tire rotates. In a vehicle, it does make the axle move up and down. It feels like an out-of-balance tire/wheel assembly.
Interesting, huh? The nominal scale factor is that a measured runout of 0.001 inch corresponds to about one pound of "road force". That's where the term "road force" originates.
It isn't enough to just measure the loaded runout of the tire, though. Why not? Because the wheel isn't perfectly round at the bead seating surface, either. You could mount a perfect tire on a wheel that isn't round and you would get the same effect as mounting a tire that isn't round on a perfect wheel.
So, what's a feller to do?
The GSP9700 can also measure the runout of the wheel. It uses a small roller against the rim on each side to measure its runout. Then, with a bit of arithmetic, it can determine how much of the loaded runout at the tread is due to the wheel and how much is due to the tire.
That's what Michelin wants measured. They want to know the loaded runout (measured in thousandths of an inch or in pounds) of the tire. If it's too much, then the tire is defective. Michelin understands this quite well.
So far, all we've discussed is how road force is measured. What, then is a "road force balance"?
Once the operator has measured the loaded runout of the tire and the runout of the wheel, the GSP9700 computes how to minimize the net loaded runout of the assembly. The operator makes a chalk mark on the outer sidewall of the tire and another on the rim, as directed by the GSP9700. He then removes the assembly from the shaft, deflates the tire, breaks the beads loose from the wheel, and rotates the tire on the wheel to align the two marks. Then he re-seats the beads, re-inflates the tire, and re-mounts the assembly on the GSP9700.
What this does is mount the "high spot" of the loaded runout of the tire at the "low spot" of the runout of the wheel, which minimizes the net runout of the whole assembly as measured at the tread. The proof is in the puddin', as the saying goes. The GSP9700 re-measures the loaded runout, at which time the operator can see just how much better it is.
It is not necessarily going to be perfect, because the loaded runout of the tire does not necessarily equal the runout of the wheel. The procedure is more correctly described as a "compensation" than a "correction", as one defect is used to compensate for another.
That procedure is called a "road force balance". Note that a road force balance has nothing to do with mounting weights on the wheel. Once the road force balance is completed, then the whole assembly has to be spun by the balancer, its imbalance measured, and weights applied to correct the imbalance, in the usual manner.
The result is that you can have a wheel/tire assembly that has significant road force imbalance but is in perfect weight balance, and you can have a wheel/tire assembly that has significant weight imbalance but is in perfect road force balance. Either condition can cause vibration that you can feel. You gotta get 'em both right, and it takes a separate procedure for each one to do that.
But, you can't get road force balance perfect, as I noted above. How good is good enough? Usually about 25 lbs of road force imbalance is a threshold above which you can begin to feel vibrations from it.
Is this real? Damned right it is. EVERY wheel and tire put on new vehicles is road force balanced at the factory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon barsinister View Post
Sound simple? Here's the problem after visting a few places to talk about the process:
Tire warehouse - $17/tire - road force balances by placing 700 lb load on tire to 'flatten' any high spots in tire? Huh?! Another place tells me this just reseats the bead of the tire.
Pressing the roller against the tire does help to seat the beads of the tire. The tire should be mounted using lots of high quality tire mounting lubricant. Don't skimp on lubricant. Lube the tire bead and lube the wheel bead seat. When the tire runout is measured, the whole assembly rotates more times than is necessary, with the extra rotations being at the start; their only purpose is
their only purpose is the help seat the beads properly.
But, the purpose of the roller is not to flatten any high spots in the tire. If that worked, then the roller wouldn't measure any runout, would it? The vehicle would do that when it rolls down the road, wouldn't it? If that worked, then there wouldn't be any need for a road force balancer, would there? But every wheel and tire put on new vehicles is road force balanced at the factory. You can bet your last dollar that it's necessary.
So, Tire Warehouse needs some training, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon barsinister View Post
Town fair tire - $13/tire - will road force balance only if machine states is necessary. Single iteration of matching high spot on tire to low spot on rim. Tech states that you can still have a vibration problem since no tire will balance perfectly.
Bingo! Dead right. This shop knows how to use the machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon barsinister View Post
Sullivan tire #1: $13/tire - machine has two buttons, one for regular balance, the other for road force. Road forcing is just as simple as hitting the button. But, what about matching high spot on tire to low spot on rim? Oh, that's extra. $30/tire
This shop is clueless. They REALLY need training.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon barsinister View Post
Sullivan tire #2: $25/tire - performs multiple iterations of matching high spot on tire to low spot on rim. States no such thing as a defective tire unless road force balancer cannot provide a correction to balance weight.
Amost right. The tire's loaded runout is fixed and the wheel's runout is fixed. There is only so much "compensation" that can be done. That's why tires don't have to be perfect. They have to be good enough. That's why I use ONLY Michelin tires. They are better, in my opinion, than all the others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon barsinister View Post
Why are there soooo many variations on how road force balancing is done.
The GSP9700 is a complex and sophisticated machine, and the whole process is subtle and ingenious. Some people understand it and some don't. The problem is that those who don't understand it often don't know that they don't understand it. You should not necessarily conclude that they are trying to cheat anyone, rather you should simply identify them and go elsewhere.
Successive rebalancing does not use the runout gauging wheel. They simply apply a dynamic balance, because the wheel and tire have already been moved relative to each other to minimize runout under the car's weight.
I had thought the runout measurement was used in the dynamic balance to compensate for the remaining runout. But now I learn it's a two step process. And successive rebalancing upon tire rotation only uses the dynamic balancing.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
They also tried to duplicate the "pause" that I get in slowly driving up a small incline at a low speed and trying to speed up. They were unable to duplicate the problem. It seems to be correcting itself as I have only had it happen once now in the last couple of weeks. Anyway as long as I know it is there I can change my driving habits and be careful in that condition.
From Mr. Goodwrench........When 4 tires and wheels are used in a balancing session, the road force balancing machine even recommends the placement of the tire/wheel on the car. Sad to say, unless the same procedure is used again at tire rotation, the RFB may be all for naught.
The more advanced we get, the behinder we get!
Apparently GM does not yet have a fix for the faulty memory seat module. I got a call from the dealer saying that the module they had ordered for my car still has not arrived but instead they want me to come back next week so that they can do some diagnostic tests to report back to GM. This is not a big deal to me as I am the only driver of my car so I have no reason to adjust my seat except for cleaning and vacuuming. Nevertheless, I will report back as soon as I know more.
By the way, I have seriously fallen in love with my CXS and this afternoon I recorded my first CD to the hard drive. I couldn’t believe it was so easy. Now I know how to do that I will begin transferring all my CDs to the hard drive. Isn’t technology great?
One car had 18" chrome wheels. This was the first set I had seen up close and I was disappointed. I believe they are the "chrome-clad" style that GM and some other automakers have moved to, with a separate chrome cap that is mated to the non-plated wheel core. I think true chrome-plated alloys like that offered on the '09 Lacrosse Super and Lucerne among others look much better. Can anyone confirm these are the chrome-clad style?
The second CXS had the 19" wheel option, non-chrome in this instance. It looked good, but the tire sidewall seemed almost nonexistent. Can anyone offer a perspective on whether these are a reasonable choice, or does ride suffer too much?
Thanks for the information - it will be interesting to see if the same thing happens to me. The part should of been ordered on Wednesday this last week (it is now Saturday) and I am not expecting anything until this coming mid week. Will report what I find out.
Max mileage was 32 on level road at 70 MPH with 3.0L V-6. All on regular gas- not premium that is a supply problem during gas shortages in the past with many of the riceburners and turbos. Buick has a winner in our opinion with a 4000# great road car that handles well in town also. Terrific fit & finish with all the options for a VERY competitive price.
Don't you think it would be very cool to see your car stop automatically once the thief/car jacker got down the to the end of the block?
Having cars running while going back into the house to get something invites accidents with children, and at the very least, is a fuel waster.
I have said before and I'll say it again, we don't NEED push button starting! Keys worked so well for a century. Imagine the concept...you insert a key to the ignition switch which belongs in the car of the owner who owns and authorizes the use of said key in said car. And guess what?! This same key can do wonders in its ability to also turn the car off and secure it for its owner later! This is down by simply turning it counterclockwise and voila! Engine turns off and steering column locks. Amazing tech. Worked like clockwork for a hundred years.
Anyway, don't take offense to my facetiousness here ok? I am merely pointing out that....so what? We have the ability to do this.....and do that......gadgets smagets. :roll eyes:
At a certain point, this is all superfluous flotsamic carp. Carp that will just quit working and inconvenience you at the worst possible moment. And it will be Murphy's Law. Murphy is never far away. (no offense to any Murphy's out there either) lol
I agree the push button start up is somewhat overkill, but I wonder if it's done for safety reasons, much like Saab has done for many years.
Does anybody find the gas pedal a bit heavy? My wife's Caddy has the same engine (3.6L) and I find my CXS gas pedal heavy to push. Just curious?
Apparently GM does not yet have a fix for the faulty memory seat module. I got a call from the dealer saying that the module they had ordered for my car still has not arrived but instead they wanted me to come back next week so that they can do some diagnostic tests to report back to GM. This is not a big deal to me as I am the only driver of my car so I have no reason to adjust my seat except for cleaning and vacuuming. Nevertheless, I will report back as soon as I know more.
*Update*
With egg on my face I must confess the problem was with me and not with the memory seat module. File that one under operator error and apologies to Buick and GM. Anyway, after hooking the car up to the computer the GM diagnostic test showed no reportable conditions. So after the technician demonstrated how to set the memory seat properly it worked like a charm.
Again, my apologies to the nice guys at my Buick dealership and to the GM tech guys in Detroit!
http://www.sandyblogs.com/techlink/2010/01/memory-seat-functions.html
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To save your positions in memory:
1. Adjust the driver seat, including the seatback recliner and both outside mirrors to a comfortable position.
2. Press and hold MEM and button 1 until the beep lets you know that the position has been stored.
A second seating and mirror position can be programmed by repeating the above steps and pressing button 2.
To recall the memory positions, press and hold either button 1 or button 2 corresponding to the desired driving position. The seat and outside mirrors move to the position previously stored.
Releasing the button before the stored position is reached cancels the recall.
Using the Remote Keyless Entry (RKE) transmitter to enter the vehicle with the remote recall memory feature on causes automatic seat and mirror adjustment associated with that transmitter. There is no adjustment when the position has not been changed by another seating position.
To stop recall movement of the memory feature at any time, press one of the power seat controls, memory buttons, or power mirror buttons.
If something has blocked the driver seat while recalling a memory position, the driver seat recall may stop working. If this happens, press the appropriate control for the area that is not recalling for two seconds, after the obstruction is removed.
Then try recalling the memory position again by pressing the appropriate memory button. If the memory position is still not being recalled, see your dealer/retailer for service.
Has anyone else seen this?
I did the same thign to my rim. Have you looke dinto any options to have it replaced? Would this be worth an insurance claim?
bass21279 --- What do you know, the dealer fixed the scratch on my 19" rims and it looks as good as new, so good in fact you cannot differentiate the repair from the other wheels. I don't know how they did it but essentially the body shop removed the rim from the tire, polished the rim and then applied the factory coating to make it look exactly like the other wheels. They said they had done the same thing for an elderly woman who had more extensive damage on both passenger side rims.
Cost? No charge. He said since they had not paired my cell phone or properly explained the operation of the memory seat when I took delivery then the wheel repair was complimentary and on the house. Hmm! pretty nice, even treating me like a Lexus customer. Heck, for the price I paid for this car I think I deserve it. Way to go Buick.
Replacing fluid should be done only with the correct GM fluid. Personally I'd use GM fluid to replace the part that would drain out; or I'd use a quality brand equivalent that meets the stated GM specs on the bottle. I'd leave the current fluid in for 70-80K miles assuming a 100K mile change referenced for light duty. Check your manual.
Same for the engine oil. There's no need to replace after 20 miles or 1000 miles.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
As for changing it, if you insist, the fee your Buick dealer gave you is not abnormal. Proper fluid, filter, etc. For the job that has to be done, that's not an unusual cost.
Wow, thats great news. Thanks for the heads up, I will take it in and see what they can do!
I did test the AM on my '09 Allure a few months ago at night, and it managed to pull in some distant signals. I remember that the AM on my '02 Intrigue that had a similar rear window antenna was not great.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Module installed today but have not really tested it out to any extent. Will test and report back my findings. Hopefully this will solve the problem that so many of us have had.
By the way when they replaced the module they had to update the software and in the process of updating it destroyed all of the radio settings. The nav setting were still there intact.
Also it no longer seems to sound a tone when I get out of the car and I drag over the three buttons. Have not tried the second FAB.
I just got another offer from XM satellite radio. They will give me 5 months for $20.00. Sorry, don't want it need it.
Thanks Rainman5542 for your info.
Ihad it back to the Dealer, they were in contact with GM who stated as of now there is no fix, they are working on the problem, my car is a 2010 Buick Lacrosse awd