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2000 Integra Type R vs. 2000 Celica GTS

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    mrspeedmrspeed Member Posts: 21
    So now that Honda makes Formula 1 engines I need to buy a Honda lawnmower! lol
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    larrydoughertylarrydougherty Member Posts: 10
    So what is it gonna take to get all you people who either own a new celica or are interested in the new celica to come over to my celica page and start posting all this nice nifty stuff over there? I have alot more than just a message board..

    Aftermarket links, reviews, specs etc.. working on an owners database etc. Ever seen one of the pages for a car like dsm.com or newcougarowners.com etc.. well thats what its all about.. Please come support this page.. I need everyones help to make it big.

    CLICK ME -> http://www.7thvision.com/celica

    Larry D
    00 GT-S
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    only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    If you have a picture of a dyno run with the power & torque curves of a 6-sp GT-S, I 'll visit your site. I 'd like to compare them to that of GSR & Type-R's. I 've heard from someone that the GT-S puts down 153hp at the wheels (which is almost the same as '94-97 GSRs, 148-151hp at the wheels) but the the torque curve is not as flat all the way through the high RPMs like in the Integras. I haven't seen it myself so if you can get someone to send you one, I 'm there!
    :-)
    PS. Pretty girls would be nice too (fighting to make it through the crowd to give a Celica owner their phone#..) heheh
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
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    racinjasonracinjason Member Posts: 11
    Check out the SCC with the Celica on the front. It has the new celica dyno sheets showing it pulling 157.? at the wheels. Also you can goto Rodmillen.com. He has a dyno sheet on there of it pushing 154.1 at the wheels. So its about in line with the output. The GTS is 180 at the crank to the GSR having 170 at the crank( unless the almighty Integra sites show 175 or something now) but thats 10 extra ponies. So if you said the GSRs dyno sheets are showing 148-151hp at the wheels. Its in line with the Celica's 154-157 bout an average of 6 hp or so. The amount of loss for both cars are about the same(13%). Actually the if you look at type r's dyno runs they get even more loss, usually 14% - 15%. On Mark's car averaged 165 ponies at the wheel because of the limited slip diff. thats stock in the ITR's. Limited slips usually rob a few ponies to insure that the horsepower that does get to the ground is pretty even so there is less spinning wheels on the track but you already know that.
    Also Mark pointed out to me those puny 15" rims that come stock on an ITR help out on the strip as there is more rubber to be worked with and less weight to be turned than in a 16" rim. The only think thats bad with a smaller rim is its usually not as wide. But then again when was the last time you saw an import use 16 or 17 inch rims with drag slicks?????? There are always 14" or maybe some 15" steel rims. Mark said that its also very possible to get good high 14s with a stock TypeR using slicks instead of the radials. Huge difference in lauching in that first 60 feet!!!! And then still be able to say all stock!!! Yeah stock motor, interior, suspension etc etc. Who would know there was slicks on it. But I don't know what I am talking about. I am just reiterating what he was telling me!
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    only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Let me explain what he is trying to tell you. The lighter the wheel, the better it is on the suspension and the steering response and helps handling overall. True, the Type-R has very light 15" wheels - 12.7lbs. But you could upgrade them to a light 16" wheel of 13-13.5lbs. There are lots of them. No doubt the Celica 16" wheels are not heavy. They had to keep the weight down and alos give it good & quick steering response, so I doubt they 're more than 14-15lbs - still light for a 16".
    What slicks accomplish up to 60ft is a good launch with good grip and minimal spinning, but I 've seen Type-Rs spin them for a good 30ft with slicks too. Depends on the driver and how you ease off the clutch..
    And yes, the ITR is robbed from some horses at the wheel due to the LSD. We know that too.
    So thanks for all the info we already knew. I don't see the point. I 'm guessing you 're trying to say that ALL those type-Rs that get high or close to mid 14s had slicks? Did Motortrends stock ITR have slicks too? or R&T's, or C&D's or SCC's? I don't think so. Or what about all those people at the acura-honda.net forum? They all lied according to your buddy Mark? Has he ever gone to the strip to see what his ITR can do in the 1/4? If yes, and he hasn't hit sub 15 #s then tell him to practice and he 'll get it, or let a real driver have a go at it, ok? You can put slicks on the GT-S and it still won't match the #s of the ITR. Like I said before, a guy and a bunch of his friends, took out all the seats from the car, put slicks on the GT-S, modified the intake to take in colder air and put a free flow muffler on. They went back to the stip 3 times and had at least 8 runs each time. They accomplished a best 14.96s which I think is admirable and logical considering 1 car mag (MT) had a best time of 15.2s (we won't count the 15.4's & up..)
    The guy's 2 or so posts are in the Sports/Coupes Forum under '00 Celica and go back about 1.5mos.
    Someone just wrote to me a couple of hours ago about the 154hp dyno run of the GT-S, maybe he got it off the Rodmillen web page too.. It's in the right range. I 'll go check the charts out.
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
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    only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Kinda tricky to find because all they 're trying to do is sell you stuff...
    The 2 mods consisting of air intake & exhaust resulted in a nice 15hp gain, comparable to an AEM intake & DC Sports (or others) exhaust HP gains for GSR.
    What's very noticeable in the dyno chart, is the torque curve which is not very smooth at all like the GSR's & Type-R's. It's almost like a rollercoaster where the Integra's torque curve is almost flat up to 7200 or more rpm.
    The Celica's goes up until 4300rpm and then drops all the way to 6200rpm to under 100 and then climbs up again to its peak of 114 through 6800rpm and then starts droping from there..
    Now I know why Mr. xxxqst said he didn't like the dyno charts. The Celica actually loses 16 lb/ft of torque from 4300 to 6200rpm.
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
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    only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Meant to say the torque chart is not very smooth UNLIKE that of the GSR's & Type-R's.
    The GSR runs at maximum torque from around
    4Krpm to 7200rpm and the Type-R all the way up to about 7600rpm. Flat line!
    The Celica's power curve is also not very smooth either and the power doesn't seem to really climb unitl 6200rpm and stops at 7200 where the GSR starts sharply climbing at around 4800 up to 7600rpm. The only good thing I see in this power curve is that the HP stays almost flat (peak) from 7200 to 7800rpm (then followed by sharp decline/loss like in the GSR). The GSR stays at peak HP from 7600 to 8000rpm and then drops. Same as ITR but from 7900-8300..
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
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    racinjasonracinjason Member Posts: 11
    and uh it actually looses 16 ftlbs of torque. LOL Harry when are you going to tell me soemthing I don't know. The bottom line is dollar for dollar there is nothing that beats a 2000 GTS. Even if you spent MSRP on it instead of the hopped up price. If I spent the extra money I saved from not buying an ITR on the GTS. There is no way it could be out handled, or out ran by any Acura or Honda. And all this BS will do nothing for you. If there is an ITR that can run 14.4s stock then there is something wrong with your Gtech meter then Johnnyboy. And yes the GTS does have better gearing than the GSR or ITR. The 98 ITR's weights in at 2650 lbs at the lightest to the GTS's 2500. and has an extra 15 horses. The GTS has all but the same exact power to wieght ratio as the ITR. with better gearing(6 speeds Johnnyboy) you do the math. Hmmmmm and the GT-S is what 4 tenths slower????????? And is only 4 tenths quicker than the GSR. Ummm it don't add up. Something has to give. But you tell me if the GT-S has the same power to wieght ratio as the ITR and have better gearing than the ITR. They are both front drivers, both the same displacement, etc etc. Then how is the ITR sooooo much faster???? hmmm It makes what Mark was saying so much easier to see. OHHHH thats right it has those 15" rims and the special stickers on it. And the special drivers in it that make it go anywhere from 14.9 which was the fastest time given to me about 30 posts ago, until now which acording to Johnnyboy is now down to 14.4's all day long completely stock! Oh yeah I forgot I saw on the Tonight Show that Jay was saying by putting on slicks that it can run 13.5's. I even have that one tapped! Yeah and when the poor little GSR ( which the GT-S was made to compete against) can only run 15.6's stock. Which I have never seen at the drag strip, even with slightly modified GSR's. But that extra 25 ponies and a hp robbing limited slip give the ITR the extra .8- 1.2 seconds??????? It needs to be da bomb!!! Then the extra 55 horses I had in my alltrac should have put it deep in the low 13's. Which it didn't. Even with all wheel drive. So when you can give me an explination why this math don't add up post a reply. I would love to hear your excuses.
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    racinjasonracinjason Member Posts: 11
    If you gentalmen would be so kind as to turn back to your SCC Oct. 99 issue and take a gander at the torque curves that SCC is some kind to provide for us. The torque curves are all but the same until 6000 rpms which is when the biggest HP increase is and you get pinned to your seat. At that point the GSR is putting out about 20 ftlbs more than the GTS. But upon further inspection you will find the GTS is usually making more torque throughout the powerband about 66% of the time. And the GSR is making more torque than the GTS for only about 2000 rpms. But then the GSR's second cam is actually ingaged fighting the GT-S's smaller cam. So actually if the GT-S would have engaged the second cam sooner the GSR wouldn't have a snowball's chance you know where. And then you must also remember with the GT-S's gearing I never fall below 6000 rpms after 2nd gear. Oh yeah and look at that I almost forgot the GSR stops making torque after 6000 rpms. Thats a shame. So for the last 2000 rpms of the GSR and probably the Type-R's also the torque goes from 117ftlbs to about 97. Gee that sucks too!
    And if you look at HP curves the GT-S curve is very strait until you hit 6gs and the second cam kicks in. DAM you feel that! all the way through to the next shift. The GSR's and Type R's second cam kicks in a little earlier. Which makes the power curves look differently than the Celicas. BIG DEAL! Are you going to whine if I cut a piece of cake differently too???? You just feel it more when you feel the second cam kick in.
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    lostandfoundlostandfound Member Posts: 2
    You Type R girls seem to be very upset about the Celica GT-S it seems to bother you it's so good and it just as fast and better looking and better handling for less! No wonder your mad. Get over it and sell your junk ITR. lol
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    racinjasonracinjason Member Posts: 11
    I wouldn't call any ITR a piece of junk. But I am trying to prove a point that the GT-S is every bit of sports car as an ITR. You will see that in all of my posts that I am trying to show the reluctant Honda/Acura population that it is a car to watch out for especially once the aftermarket jumps on the band wagon. You will see the GT-S surpase the ITR in value for the horsepower. Showing you don't have to spend 29 grand on an ITR when the GT-S is everybit as capable. I only fall back to the GT-S is the computer needs to kick in the second cam earlier. If it engaged 1000 rpms earlier you would see even faster 0-60 times and faster 1/4 miles times than that of an ITR. something that simple! No new exhaust systems or intakes, or turbos, just a change in the computer settings. But anyhow the Type-R and GSR are about as a respectable foe as you can find. These two cars have been the light weight champ of import tuning for sometime. Now its time to face a new challenge. And as much as they hate to admit it, the ITR and GSR boys have something to sweat about on the strip and at the track. Especially the ITR boys. As we all know that the GTS creams the GSR in every aspect. Otherwise they wouldn't be so up in arms on this board!!!
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    webjeff2webjeff2 Member Posts: 21
    The acceleration times that I've seen for the Celica are not that impressive. Several months back, C&D timed it at a 7.5 sec. 0-60. In the December issue of C&D, they improved on that and got 7.2 sec. Road and Track was able to get 6.8 sec., but in May 97 ( I think) Road and Track got a 6.2 sec. 0-60 for the Type R and Car and Driver
    timed the Type R at 6.6 sec. The Celica is about on par or maybe ever so slightly quicker that the GSR but slower than the base Prelude and Type R. It is nearly 2 full sec. slower than the Prelude from 0-120 mph and has an 11mph lower top speed. The GSR also has a higher top speed than the Celica.
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    only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Even C&D picked the Prelude over the GT-S. The #s speak for themselves.
    GT-S owners are Type-R wanna BEs.
    I don't car if the power to weight ratio is the same. It's how the engine was built, where VTEC kicks in, flat torque curve, etc. etc.
    Look at the BMW 328i that puts out 193hp and weights 3300lbs! 0-60 in 6.9s or less. Of course it has more torque so lets compare it to the Chevy Monte Carlo, Acura 3.2TL, Infiniti I30 that are all low to high 7s cars and have 200+ HP & torque. Ok, so these are automatics. Lets compare it to the Mustang V6 then that has 190hp and 200 torque!
    Best 0-60 I 've seen for the Mustang V6 5-sp is 7.3s (and a 7.5). The Mustang is almost 100lbs lighter than the 328i! So it should be faster right? WRONG! It's the engineering of the motor, gearing & aerodynamics (drag coeficient).
    It's how the power is transferred to the wheels and at what moment (power & torque curves). It's many factors.
    The Type-R has a lot shorter gearing than the GSR just like the GT-S but looking at the #s seems like the ITR is engineered better.
    Only with mods will a GT-S be a threat to a Type-R
    And if Rodmillen is the only one that has something so far, good luck. You 'll pay a premium for them..
    Just fyi, with just an AEM cold air intake ($220), the ITR 's HP at the wheels increases to 171 & torque to 120-121. Also stock ITRs put down 116-117 torque (117.8 is the highest I 've seen stock) at the wheels, not 114 like the GT-S.. even though they have the same torque at the crank. Why? better torque transfer to the wheels, thus better engineering.
    AND no ITR weighs 2650! Stop making up numbers!
    The ITR weighs a couple of lbs over 2600 with A/C.
    I don't think A/C weighs 90lbs do you? Because the weight without it is 2570. The Celica is 2500 stripped. Sunroof alone is 30lbs+

    Lostandfound: "it just as fast and better looking and betterhandling for less"
    It looks like you 're still lost.. since when is the GT-S faster and better handling than an ITR? You can wake up now.. Never seen the Celica hit below 15.2s in the 1/4 or ever touch .90g in the skidpad or ever match the ITR's slalom speed. You can wake up now..
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
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    webjeff2webjeff2 Member Posts: 21
    SH Preludes weigh some 100 lbs more than the base model. The ATTS on the SH causes it to make approx. 5 less hp at the wheels. Most Preludes that have been tested were 97 model SHs which have 195hp instead of the current model's 200hp. The test car in this month's C&D was not a press car, it was one they had to get from a Honda dealer which was not broken in. Had it been broken in, it's 0-60 time would have been closer to 6.6 sec. Check out www. carpoint.com ; they test a 99 SH and get a 0-60 of 6.8 and a 1/4 mile time of 15.2 and in 1997 Motorweek TV tested a 97 SH and got a 0-60 of 6.5 sec. (www.motorweek.com , I think). June 1994 C&D tested a 190hp Prelude, which is lighter by 50 lbs. than the current base model and has the exact same gearing and gear ratios, and got a 0-60 of 6.5 sec. I've personally timed my 99 base Prelude from 0-62mph and I consistantly get a time of 6.7 sec. I really haven't raced a Type R from a dead stop, but just diced with one on the freeway once and it was faster than my car. I don't buy the old "it's a preproduction model so it has slower times" bit. Why would Toyota release something to the automotive press that's not performing at it's peek? They are not stupid, they want the Celica to be shown in the best possible light. Also, concerning top speed, have you taken the rev limiter off yours and do you know if it does make a difference? It appears that the Celica makes it's top speed in 5th gear, which at redline is 129mph, when you shift to 6th because of the tall gearing, speed drops back to 122mph. The GSR tops out at 134mph, the Prelude at 140mph and I believe the Type R tops out at 145mph all in their respective top gears. Did you look at the top gear acceleration figures for all three cars? The Celica is roughly 3.5 sec. slower in the 30-50 and 50-70 than the GSR and Prelude. Granted, this test means nothing if you're in a race, but it does give a good indication of the responsivness of a car in every day driving, and the Celica looses there too. Hey, I'm not dissing the Celica; I've test driven one and it's a nice car, but lacks the punch and refinement of the Prelude. I owned a 96 GSR too, and my seat of the pants tells me that the GSR SEEMED quicker than the Celica, some numbers dispute that though.
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    johnnyboyrjohnnyboyr Member Posts: 2
    Man you Toyota guys have a lot of pent up anger eh? As for the 14.4 times. They were not with a G-tech, but were at Cayuga Dragway in Ontario, Canada. If we G-Tech'd them we would be even faster and the trap speeds are always over 100mph with a G-Tech. You can talk technology crap and "but my car has this" crap all day. There are alot of "snarky" remarks and well I guess I could be the same by saying that I'd be angry too if I just bought a '00 GTS and it barely keeps up with an 8 year old design. But I'll let my timeslips do the talking. That's one reason I like driving a stock Type R. I like to see the mustang, GSR, Prelude(and soon Celica) guys faces when we pull those times off. Although it is fustrating when they say that my car can't be stock. But what am I gonna do? Tell them they suck at driving? You guys need to chill and come spring I hope there are some of you guys in the Toronto Canada area...or even near the border as I would like to go to some events down there. Then we can line it up and let the times do the talking! Up here in Canada The GTS is about the same price as a Type R. I think the new R's go for 32000 and the Celicas go for that as well. Also just because you have 6 gears does not mean you have better gearing....I'll have to work it out to see for sure, so I will get back to you on that. have any of you guys dyno'd your cars yet?
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    webjeff2webjeff2 Member Posts: 21
    I don't think that the GSR will be run over by the Celica. The times for both of these cars are so close and in some cases equal. In fact, with drivers of equal skill, from 0-60 and through the 1/4 mile, the GSR may have the slight advantage.
    In my opinion, the GSR is easier to launch and does not bog down as much as the Celica, and it's peak torque does occur at a lower rpm. GSR also has one of the best gearboxes with extremly short throws and a clutch that's very easy to modulate. Getting back to the Type R though; can anyone provide the 0-100 and 0-120 times for the ITR? I'd be willing to bet that they would be considerably faster than the Celica's 19.6sec. and 35.7sec. respectively. As speeds climb the gap in times between the Celica and ITR widens dramatically. And then it's all over of course, once the Celica hits 129 mph in 5th gear!
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    nutypenutype Member Posts: 15
    Damn people, this forum is like a joke. Both cars are great stop hating. Both the times on the car is similer, its all up to the driver. Don't talk all this top speed nonsense, because where the heck can you go over 100 with out gettin arrested for speeding with intent to kill. Enjoy your cars. if you guys want speed why don't you try to get an old CRX or a Civic hb and put some money in to it? or for you toyota guys get the old rear wheel drive turbo corollas or the mr2 or the turbo GTS celica. Type R is more of a myth then anything, i've driven serveral type Rs and didn't seem any better then a celica. personally i'd rather get the gsr over the type R, more too work with. bottem line is that if speed is what your looking for there more better choices then the type R or celica.
    Race my all motor and full interior 13 sec 89 civic hb, and you'll see what i mean, 6000 bux but eats z28s for lunch.
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    only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    We know you like to seriously modify your cars.
    You have a Civic EX & turbocharged it (along with other mods). Then you threw the engine out, put a Prelude motor in it, turbocharged that, now you're swapping it for a GSR motor because you couldn't have A/C with the Prelude one, etc. etc. You also just bought a hybrid old CRX.. Yes, there 's lots of ways to beat the big V8s.
    A turbo or a project car is the best way to do that so you 're on the right track.. Some of us though are not into these heavy mods and don't have the time or guts (or money) to rip out a perfectly good engine.. If I were 10 years younger and single I 'd probably be doing a lot more mods too. Back in the 80's I used to love working on my cars all the time. Now I just want a car that is pretty decent right out of the box and maybe do some simple bolt ons.
    Our intentions (I think I speak for a lot of us including our Toyota friends) is not to beat Z28s & Formulas with 350ci or 3000GT VR4s. I would 've bought a different car if that was on my mind. Reliability, gas mileage & handling were more on my list because I commute 80mi each way to work. Well I also knew about the aftermarket parts availability and that the GSR is the car most people modify, but that wasn't at the top of my list.
    Like you said, I enjoy driving it and that's all that matters.
    As far as the Type-R being a myth, noone is trying to make it out to be a Ferrari or a Vette, but I definitely know it kicks my GSR & Prelude butt every time! I just have respect for that car because it's way better than mine, not just slightly better (stock vs stock).
    You may not think so highly of it because you 've driven turbo Civics, turbo Preludes and who knows what else with modified suspension, etc.
    As far as top speed goes, we were mainly talking about track racing. Call me crazy but I 've hit 135 when noone is around on the highway at least 3 times. Once racing an Audi A4 2.8, a Lexus 400 and an early-mid '90s Mustang GT. I pulled on them and won every time.
    May I remind everyone again that the Type-R took 1st, 2nd, & 3d place in the SCCA Touring Races? Competed against 7-8 BMW 328s, Eclipse GSXs, VW VR6s, Mercedes, Mustangs, Preludes, and all kinds of other cars, etc. except for M3, Porshes & the like. Of course there were about 4 Type-Rs competing. One 328 got 4th place. This clearly proves the capabilities of the Type-R.
    But you 're absolutely right. Enjoy your cars because they 're special to you.
    Have a nice Holiday..
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
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    prelude_5genprelude_5gen Member Posts: 9
    You do have a few problems with facts. I was keeping up with you for awhile there and had to stare directly at the computer for several seconds before realizing you are simply spouting your mouth off about numbers. First, you choose the best times anyone has got - not the average, not the typical but the best times. But then you put this little gem in which I'm guessing the other Lude owners just about fell off their chairs:

    Besides good luck finding a manual in SH trim.

    Hmmm... you might want to research that before you open your mouth. And C&D picked the lude over the Eclipse and then the GT-S... third place my friend. And now they've tested the thing twice (a pre-production model that got 7+ seconds) and now an actual production model that still got beat by the lude. And lets not forget - this wasn't just about a race to 60mph. Even if the GTS had the best time at the trial - that would have moved you up to maybe second.

    I agree with the other guys here - I bow to Type R's - there's just no beating them but please don't tell me the GTS is better than everything around. The last response is a clear indication of what Type R's do to the competition - it's like having an unfair advantage!

    A six speed does not necessarily mean better performace - better fuel economy - I wish Honda would put 6 speeds in the lude and Integras myself - I wouldn't change the gearing - just add on a 6th gear for highway driving.

    Anyway - it's pretty clear that you want to take the best case scenario and make everyone believe that that is the standard to go by. If that's how you get your kicks - be my guest.
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    racinjasonracinjason Member Posts: 11
    I am sorry but the BEST the ludes get is 6.8 and 15.4. That my friend is not better than the average of 6.6 and 15.2 for the GT-S and I won't even talk about handling. The BEST that I have seen for the Celica is 6.5 and 15.0. But as for handling you are in the same class as the v6 mustang. But I think for today you should just read only1harrys post and enjoy your car. That what I am going to do today with my wife traveling to relatives houses. And usually that doesn't involve speeds exceeding 60-65. Or the wife will get upset and she is the final authority! LOL and conering that doesn't exceed .60gs! But enjoy your rides today as I will mine nomatter what you drive. Happy Holidays!!!
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    webjeff2webjeff2 Member Posts: 21
    I just don't understand how racinjason considers the Celica's times of 7.2 and 15.7/90mph to be quicker than the Prelude's times of 6.8 and 15.4/91mph. The Prelude has been clocked as low 6.5 0-60mph by several major publications and the Celica has never been that quick! The Celica is a 7.0 sec./ high 15 car and the Prelude is a bit quicker. The Celica has slightly higher lateral acceleration but the Prelude has more useable handling at the limit, as evidenced by C&Ds "perfect 10" rating for the Prelude vs. the Celicas score of 9. Peace and goodwill towards men/women.
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    prelude_5genprelude_5gen Member Posts: 9
    Best times for a lude are easily 6.7 for someone who knows what they're doing - I don't consider myself a drag strip racer but I've gotten 6.9's the one time I did go (my best time). I've seen times as low as 6.5 on stock 99's in the standard trim. But that doesn't mean it's faster than the Celica - I'm just saying that you have one magazine that tested at 6.6 - the rest that I've seen is 6.9 and 7.2. That was my point - don't take the best time that one person achieved - take the average.

    And as I pointed out, you clearly didn't do your research on what transmission you get with the SH - meaning you are getting these 6.8 times from out of a hat most likely. I'm all for putting your best foot forward and braggin about your car - let's face it - neither machine is cheap. But don't dis a car unless you have some good information to back it up - otherwise your entire point gets lost.

    I don't particularly like saying one car magazines revue is god's word - Lude owners will always point out C&D because they like the car - respect well earned but nevertheless... One of the reasons why the Lude was at the top of the pack in that revue was it's history, the fact that it cost the most (not always a good indication but...) and they all knew how to drive the car to its best.

    All I'm asking is look at all of the revues and come up with some over all impressions - not just what MT says.

    Here's what I found

    6.6s 15.2s (MT)
    7.5s 16s (C&D)

    After a quick check anyway - there's probably more. Now some might say that the C&D test was flawed because it was a pre-production car - however - if you look carefully - so was the MT test. Most people overlook that (well Celica people do anyway). Oh well, I think it's a great car but I'll be buying a 6th gen lude next fall and I guarantee it will top the market again 'pecially since the Celica came out and Mustangs are equivelent. Or maybe the new Integra - I don't know - I think this is probably the year for the Celica (just like when the Miata came out), but Toyota better sell a bunch of them, it be a shame to have to redesign it when the new Honda's come out!
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    reg1reg1 Member Posts: 2
    Love your car...
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    steven975steven975 Member Posts: 5
    The GSR and GTS are similar in performance...the gts may edge out a gsr by like .1-.2 secs in the quarter and .02-.04G's on the skidpad, but that's about it. And that's stock. My 99 GSR runs 15.2's on ONLY a custom cold air intake. That's with the crappiest tire hopping starts you can imagine. Don't believe me, give me an address and I'll mail you my time slip.

    There are design philosophies to compare. The GSR has lots of noise dampening restrictions (the Integra intake is no work of art) on it to make it tolerable for the masses, the GTS was designed from the outset to beat the GSR so it didn't get these to the same degree. Once the noise dampening equipment is removed from the GSR, it gets ~183-187 at the crank. Total cost: <$40-$220. Dispute this if you want, it's sad but true.

    Oh, many "witnesses" at the track say that the best a GSR can do with I/H/E is 15.6? Yeah, I've seen these guys, too. They can't drive I guess. There's some really great drivers out there who can hit high 14's (not stripped) in a GSR with just an intake, though (on stock tires). Believe it, once my 60 foots improve I'll be one of them. I do a 2.4X now, but another guy in a stock 99 GSR can pull consistent 2.2's! When I get that down, I'm in the 14 club! I've also got a 22mm rear bar in my car. Difference in handling is night and day. The GSR's tires are the worst known to man. Of course the GTS will win as long as the GSR wears those!

    Also, remember the GTS is >6 years newer in design. I'd expect it to outperform the GSR (as it does).

    The Type R is a whole other beast. It too suffers from the noise dampening resonator; once that's out it pumps out >200 at the crank. I would not consider a limited slip differential a power robber. It aids greatly in making sure the most power actually MAKES IT TO THE GROUND. That's (among other things) where the ITR edges out the GTS. I'm not even going to try to say I could take a ITR; they are consistently 14.7 1/4 cars. Wouldn't even compare the handling, either.

    Toyota moved in the right direction with the GTS. It's about time! They set their sights on the GSR and edged it out. Toyota really focused on the weak points of the GSR (tires and noise tuning mostly) and really nipped them. I like the GTS. It's not a poser sport coupe like so many others. Can't wait to race one, heheh...it'll be interesting.

    One last thing. Everyone here seems to see a Type-R like every other day. How is this? There are not too many of them. I've seen one at the dealer parking lot and another at the booze store. That's it. Never run into one on the road. I'm jealous of you guys!
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    mznmzn Member Posts: 727
    Friends, you may notice that some posts above were scribbled. These posts violated the requirement that interaction in the Town Hall be civil and respectful. Let's disagree agreeably, shall we? Thanks!

    carlady/host
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    trdcelicagtstrdcelicagts Member Posts: 14
    Someone that admits to the Celica being a sportscar! I didn't think there was an Acura/Honda owner that would admit that. I don't need to post what times the GT-S gets or anything like that b/c the actual time slips will start rolling in this spring. With myself as one of them. I don't want to start any arguements but a good friend of mine used to own a GSR and draged it for 2 years. He has been dragging imports for about 5 years or so now. He runs 11 second mustangs, turbo 300 Z's, and cars for other people. And is dam good too. He had the whole car gutted, slicks, intake and exhaust and only managed a 14.9??? He ran it at MIR which is almost sea level. We have tons of video of it too. You can check out his runs. And We have a few others guys down here at the shop also that will speak the same truths. And have run their GSR's when they had them. All with about the same times. Tony's which gave his GSR which ran low 14's with, exhaust, intake, header, cat, slicks, computer, vtec controller, and no interior. Thats alot of stuff to take out and only run a low 14. And Tony has had an 11 second supra that he ran often and has now just purchased a 10 second white AWD Eclipse that was in turbo about 2 years back that Tony wants to make faster! Seth's wild yellow Integra which always places high in the car shows down there runs his GSR once in a while too. Hes got intake and exhaust and runs a good 15.5. He takes his system out and goes. I am not sure the exact numbers everyone else has. But these guys know how to drag. There are actually way too many GSRs in town. And they all have intakes and exhaust systems, etc etc. I have beaten plenty of them in my GTS already. But I think we are suposed to be talking 2000 ITR vs 2000 GT-S aren't we. So does anyone have any numbers on the 00 ITRs???????? I have seen plenty of numbers on 98 ITRs and lot of GSRs.
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    only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Low 14s is VERY hard to get in an naturally aspirated 4cyl. car!! From what you described, the guy has the standard bolt-on mods (I/H/E) and has modified the VTEC controller which means he changed the RPM setting at which vtec kicks in.
    You said he had a "computer". I assume he replaced the computer chip, but actually there are no good "computer chips" for the Integra and they don't do what they claim to do. Some take their GSRs to specialty performance shops that reprogram the ECU (computer) to usually move up the rev limiter (to like 8500 or 9000) and they mess with the fuel maps to provide more fuel and run "rich".
    This mod usually gets you about .2s in the 1/4.
    The best upgrade after bolt-ons for a GSR is a performance CAM with cam gears which is better than reprogramming the computer.
    Anyway, I think low 14s is pretty damn good. That's not achieved easily or without spending some $$.
    But since you mentioned a 14.9 Integra may I remind you what I said before in a previous post about what a GT-S owner said in the sportcars/coupes topic about his experiences at the strip.
    He is an experienced dragster and he and his friends took the seats out, put an exhaust and a free flow muffler on, modified the air intake to suck in colder air and put slicks on. The best run of the day (and they had many, I think he mentioned 11 or more in one day) was 14.96. That's almost similar to the Integra you described except for the headers which only add 3-5hp anyway. Just addressing the points you made.
    You don't get low 14s with just simple mods - takes a lot for a 4cyl. car without a supercharger (or turbo) to get low 14s or to shave off more than a second in the 1/4.
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
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    mrspeedmrspeed Member Posts: 21
    I finally test drove the Celica GT-S 6spd. The salesman was w/me and he wouldn't let me take it to the highway. I got a chance to run it to redline in 1st and most of 2nd gear (from stop) before the salesman told me to stop! I don't think it comes close to the acceleration of my ITR but then again this was a brand new car w/2 miles on odometer. Or maybe it was a lemon. It just didn't feel anywhere near as strong as the ITR's 1st/2nd gear. The handling on the other hand is excellent- great transitions. The car had Michelin Pilot tires on 15" alloys. I like these tires and are one of the best tires around. I would say the transient handling (slalom) is almost as good as the ITR. I'll try to go back and road test it w/out the salesman. Maybe I'll bring my brother and hope the salesman won't subject himself to the rear seat torture :-)
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    only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    You went from 1st to 2nd and could tell all that about the car's handling? No wonder the salesman told you to stop.. :-) Yes, the Pilots are an excellent tire which now explains why the 16" wheel upgrade is only $60. Looks like they put the cheaper Yokohamas on the 16" wheels to reduce the price difference of the 15" to 16" upgrade.
    If they were to put 16" Pilots on the 16" rims the price would probably go up significantly..
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
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    mrspeedmrspeed Member Posts: 21
    I agree that I only tested the handling of the car at speeds below 40 mph. You can tell enough about the car's handling attributes at low speed. Take autocross for example, where the highest speed achieved rarely reaches 50mph: If the car has faults or handling vices they show up immediately. The only thing you can't test for at low speeds is high speed stability which results from relative lift/downforce created.
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    nutypenutype Member Posts: 15
    Test drove a Silver GTS today. Drove like a gokart, handles great. On route 7 in tysons corner i took it to redline in 1,2 and third gears. This car feels right at home at 80mph. I thought this car was fairly quiet. It made all the right engine noises. The seats are great, i loved the leather. Drove very much like a integra. I love the way this car looks, reminds me of a ferrari. Just on a test drive i got waves and pointing from the ladies =). I liked the tranny also seems very honda like but i would have to say GSR tranny is better. Celica definetly has potential to be a tuners car and would make SCCA racer. I would definetly consider this car as my next car.
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    trdcelicagtstrdcelicagts Member Posts: 14
    I like the posts I am seeing here. Some good info from guys that have driven both cars. You should all check out this site!!! http://www.geocities.com/newcelica2000
    Its a guy's from Down Under that has alot of info on all the new Celicas world wide!!! From the horridly low powered Celicas sold in the UK that are dressed to kill but no motivation under the hood - to the king of all Celicas!!!! the Japanese Celica SS II "super strut" edition that makes ITR's everywhere run for cover!!! With limited slip diff., Complete FACTORY race suspension with double wishbone up front as well as the rear. Factory strut tower bars in the from and rear. Not to mention the factory in dash navigation system! As well as some nice weight saving techniques to keep the lightweight champ in trim shape!!! Lucky for us here in the states we don't like to buy to many of those from the factory. So we get the upgrade packages in spring(April)!!! But still very nice!!! I am not sure if TRD will have the limited slips over here also or not. Only time will tell. And I have some bad news from my Buddy Mark from in at work with the Type R. He is selling the motor out of it and putting a 2.2 Prelude block and 2.3 head with a 25G turbo to make over 450 hp!!! I think he should just upgrade the motor already in it!!!
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    crikeycrikey Member Posts: 1,041
    For all you Celica fans out there, check this out:

    http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/news/losangeles00/concept2.html#6

    500 frickin' horsepower!!! from a 2.0 liter 4
    cylinder car!
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    lostandfoundlostandfound Member Posts: 2
    I crove this car the other day and it was fat! Been in the Integras and it blows Acura away. In looks and handling and speed. I can get it for 22,000 loaded. Type-R is nice but not many options, boring interior, no leather, why pay more for a car that doesn't have the options this car has. Besides you only have a choice of 2 colors on the R, Sinus infection yellow or always cleaning it black. Celica comes with 6 different colors. Celica is the winner already.
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    ipoipo Member Posts: 6
    it's clear from the dyno plots, the car's basic design, the technology used, and the reviews that the new Celica was designed specifically to beat the GSR, in handling by a hair, acceleration by a hair, and in the coveted HP/l category. That the GTS is getting 100hp/l is no surprise. Looking at the dyno plot, though, is a bit of a disappointment. Apparently, VVTiL is not all that I was expecting it to be. Does anyone know whether this is a continuous system? From the plots and what I've read, it appears that it is not...they say it switches over at 6000 RPM and the change is very abrupt on the rodmillen.com dyno run. With all the arguments in the past regarding VTEC vs. VVTi, I think it's safe to say that VTEC is still a better technology in these applications - you don't see torque curves that are that ugly in the R cars nor the s2000. It's funny that the whole Toyota vs. Honda thing is up in here, and the engine is a Yamaha. Yeah, "co-designed," whatever; it's a Yamaha engine using Toyota's new VVTiL. Obviously, 100hp/l was a serious goal, but they haven't achieved the much flatter torque curve that VTEC provides. VTEC is the better system for everything except instantaneous torque; now if Honda could only figure out how to make it work continuously, they would have the ultimate VT system.

    Judging from what I've read and I know, it's clear that the Toyota now surpasses the GSR, but only marginally and there are some tradeoffs to this. As for it being a Type R, forget it. Seriously, forget it. The Type R is in its own class as far as performance goes. Also, recall that the Integra GSR is actually 5 years or so old now...the GTS is a 2000 model. It took Toyota 5 years and technology from Yamaha to beat the Integra. This is a testament to Honda's obvious superiority in small engines & small cars. Also, it once again proves that VTEC is a better and higher-performance system in these applications. When the new Integra comes out, with the detuned 2.0L, forget it, the Celica won't even be close.
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    larrydoughertylarrydougherty Member Posts: 10
    just wanted to let everyone know I have created a home page for the 2000+ Toyota Celica owners.. It has reviews, specs, owners database, forum, pics... etc. etc.. Come discuss this over there.. Or anything else about your car you'd like to know or talk about..

    the address is
    http://www.newcelica.org

    Larry D
    00 GT-S
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    trdcelicagtstrdcelicagts Member Posts: 14
    Hmm it seams your are very biased on your comments IPO. If you would read some articles from people that know what they are talking about. They say that the Toyota VVTL-i is better that the Vtec setup in everyway! And if you notice the VVTl-i torque curves are that way simply because of the two different cams and the change over isn't as soon as the Vtec. It doesn't need to be as soon as the vtec! They do that because of the turdy first cam is on the Vtec motors. If the Toyota VVTL-i switched to the bigger cam sooner it would throttle the ITR's!!! The changeover being abrupt is a bad choice of words on RM's part. If you ever drove one you would know its like a turbo kicking in or strong a push from behind, not a kick in the rear. Or getting smacked with a baseball bat like you make it seem. Its a surge of power that comes on strong till redline!!! The change over is awesome and feels alot better than the Vtec switch thats is just plain dull! I drove in my friends GSR last year and he showed me what it felt like. I asked him. "Was that it??" It felt weak. I guess because of the "straight power curve". But this power curve stuff that you honda/acura guys gotta hold on to for dear life because its all you got. Go right ahead. It doesn't mean anything to anyone on the track! When the GT-S is "bottoming out" in he torque at 5500 rpms we are still out in front. And the GSR is struggling to keep up even on the second cam while we are on our first. And then the shift to the second cam comes in and its all over after that!!! Then after 2nd gear at 63 mph, You never go back to the lower cam. If the GSR is only behind the GT-S by a little, Why can i go out every night of the week and spank GSR hard. even the modified ones!!! I can't wait till the tracks open up this year so I can post the numbers to prove it. B/C its will be actually be closer to the ITR than the GSR. Wonder why the sites on the net say that the GT-S's main competition is the ITR and not the GSR!!! And if the Honda motors are so superior to All others. Than why has the DSM cars and Toyota cars always been the faster of the bunch. Honda could never compete with the Celica all-trac's, MR2's, Supras, etc. Or the elcipse, talons, 3000 models, etc. the Toyotas always won. And the honda corp. needed something to keep up with the DE-TUNED 3S-GTE motors co-developed with yamaha also. Or the Supra TT motor that makes an NSX look like an entree! Or even the Nissan motors that take their claim to fame also. Honda thinks they are tops b/c the sell a few accords and civics. Big deal. If they had the same kind of factory support that Toyota sees everyday I could understand. But they are afraid to put forced induction on anything. Which toyota simply loves to do. They offer factory supercharge kits, full race suspensions, rims, exhausts, intakes, the whole deal!!! You never see that with Mugen!! If you goto a Honda dealer where is the Mugen stuff??? You go to a Toyota dealer you see TRD and toyota motorsport stuff everywhere!!! They totally endorse it. SO you tell me who stands behind their cars and offers the most stuff for their vehicles. B/C toyota knows that if you can sell a car with awesome performance and handling which is the Celica GTS and offer factory supported upgrades people will buy and spank any ITR on the road. its already happening!!! Toyota Celica sales are at record highs!!! But like I said read the SCC article that compares the two motors and you will see that they said the VVTL-i is better!!! And what is the trade offs to being a better all round car that the GSR or the ITR!!! If all cars were judged and given scores the GT-S would win! No doubt! And the GT-S has the low end torque as well as high end! Where is the Integras low end?? to get a decent drive around town out of it??? Its not there. And I am sorry but 2-3 tenths on the 1/4 and .02 in the skidpad does not put the ITR in a class of it own. YES it is the leader... here in the states, as the Celica SSII Super strut edition from the factory is considered by some to be the best front drive handler in the world!!! So keep talking! LOL I will laugh. And what does it matter when Honda made its first Vtec compared to Toyota's VVTL-i system??? Honda had a need and a want to build it at the time. Toyota didn't it at the time had a smokin Supra and MR2 turbo, and Celica all-trac that could simply walk away from any honda! So they had no need for variable valve timing, etc. honda was playing catch up. Then after they stop making the all-tracs, MR2 turbos, and lastly the Supras for america in 98. They said ok lets make a Variable valve system with our pals from yamaha that make high reving motors all the time. And SHOW Honda how its done!!!! LOL Nobody cares about the past except for people looking for excuses! LOL
    Thanks Harry you answered my question as to why Toyota is developing that 230 horse 2.0 liter for the GT-S! Aparently They couldn't hide it from toyota! Honda is uping the stakes a bit. Wow. It will have a 2.0 liter engine with 30 more horse than the GSR vtec motors!!! how nice!!! And it should be faster than the ITR also with less weight!!! KEWL!!!! I am glad I don't need to stop to that level. Mine gets better gas mileage, Mine has more HP, Mine has more torque than an ITR, mine has a newer body style, mine cost less, mine has more features, mine has a 6 speed, mine has more factory support! LOL Should I continue. Just face it the new celica plain and simple is more of a total package rice rocket than the GSR or ITR!!! And keep blabing about torque curves and all that cause in the end it still wont make the GSR any closer to beating a GT-S in a race. And trust me no matter how you look at it. the GT-S is still a 1/2 second faster than a stock GSR. I prove it everyday!!! And the motor still hasn't completely broke in yet.
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    mrspeedmrspeed Member Posts: 21
    Brag now about the Celica cause you'll be sorry you bought one when the '01 Integras come out and spank the Celicass...VBG
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    prelude_5genprelude_5gen Member Posts: 9
    Did you get off-topic so quickly? MR2's, Supras what does this have to do with anything? Stay on topic and compare the two side by side. I mean - if this is the topic - NSX vs the Supra go right ahead and shoot your opinion - it isn't. Spanking GSR ain't that hard to do - what is it now - 7 years old? I'm looking forward to the Motorolla cup this year where the ITR waltzed away in their class - will Celica give them a run for the money? Hope so, until then keep smiling and driving. As a side note, the phrase, "Mine has this, Mine has that" gives Celica owners a bad name - be proud of your car, but don't be childish about it. I honestly thought a 16 year old with a new license that had mommy and daddy buy his car wrote that - I'm sure you're not but if you want some credibility when you post (because you do make some good points) then I would suggest you respond accordingly.
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    trdcelicagtstrdcelicagts Member Posts: 14
    That was the point I was trying to make. These guys are trying to make the Celica look weak by nit picking at it. But they won't take the thing as a whole b/c they know its a better all round deal and better all round car. I was acting stupid to show these guys what they have been doing all along. complaining that Toyota is stealing Vtec and naming it differently!!! Yeah right!!! They however did take the variable cam profiles idea that is VTEC and make a better system design. But look at these nex gen Honda Motors!!! that you guys are bragging about!! LOL This cracks me up totally! If you read the Feb. edition of SCC they show you these "new" motors!!! Guess what!!! They are stealing Toyotas technology that they made back in what like 96?? With having a Vtec-i motor!! Sounds like VVTL-i even worse than Zetec, or Vortec! Which doesn't even refer to the same concept as VTEC!!! But the new VTEC-i will have variable cam timing!!! Toyota have been doing that for years!!!
    LOL Also let me quote this out of SCC for you. "VTEC-i was developed using Honda's new VTC system- variable timing control- and their much regarded VTEC technology. The VTEC continues to switch cams at a given rpm, but now the VTC adjusts the intake cam timing on the fly, EXACTLY LIKE the VVTL-i in the new Celica GT-S." I rest my case!!! All this bragging about new Honda motors and all this stuff about how much better they will be, when you don't have to look any futher than the hood of a New Toyota Celica GT-S! How bout that! Now I know why I have so much low end torque!!! Thanks SCC for clearing that up! So when when all the Acura/Honda guys get excited with the VTEC-i The toyota camp will be yawning saying what too you so long!! 6 years after Toyota introduced that technology!!
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    trdcelicagtstrdcelicagts Member Posts: 14
    I am better than that but I let my emotions carry me bro! Sorry I am a pashionate Celica guy what can i say!
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    trdcelicagtstrdcelicagts Member Posts: 14
    Sorry bud. I don't think the GSR will have much of a chance with the GT-S in the future either. Toyotas is suposedly stuffing a 2.0 liter 230 horse motor with 155 ft/lbs of torque in the Celica soon!!! I said about that a while back. Will be great rivals with the Type-R though.
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    SPYDER98SPYDER98 Member Posts: 239
    Where did you hear this from? If they do in fact stuff that motor in there and cut the roof off they'll have me sold...
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    only1harryonly1harry Member Posts: 1,140
    Yeah baby, bring them on!! I like this war of the Sports Coupes..
    230hp Celica should mean comparable GSR & better Type-R, I can't wait. And hey, if the GSR or Type-R fall short I 'll trade in my GSR and probably get a Celica too. I don't think I 'm that bad of an Integra fanatic :-) I go where the power is.. heheh
    It's going to be interesting to watch though. When is this going to stop? hmm... it just started.
    '99 Integra GSR
    '06 Civic LX coupe
    '11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
    '13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
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    mrspeedmrspeed Member Posts: 21
    When is the 2 liter 230HP engine coming? Where did you get that from? If it's true, and the price of that Celica is reasonable (like it is now) I'll consider trading in my Type R! In fact I'll be the first to put a deposit down :-)
    But I think you're BSing us- maybe in Japan it'll happen.
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    prelude_5genprelude_5gen Member Posts: 9
    We all know that more HP in a 4 cyl car means more money - 120/l was a feat - and they'll improve on that again no doubt. But you won't be buying a GT-S with 200+ Hp for the same price - no way. RUmors I've heard is that they'll bring back the Sup Dawg with no turbo but an inline 6 - they do this especially if the inline Integ/Lude is a reality. God I hope Honda doesn't screw this up... they could really tick off loyal Integra AND Lude fans if they do this wrong.

    Anyway I think in the months to come we'll find out what we've known for awhile - the GTS is better than the GSR, but still doesn't have enough to beat the ITR - who knows I could be wrong but Toyota's target market was bang on and they beat it. What I like about all of this is that the new coupes are going to be more powerful (with each company trying to outdo each other) and more competition which means lower prices. I can't see Toyota actively seeking out the Type R market - we are talking about 500 cars a year - they sold more Supra TT in a year and that was a pretty rare car. BTW - anywone know why they went to black in the states on the 2000 ITR (it's still white in Canada)?
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    trdcelicagtstrdcelicagts Member Posts: 14
    Your wise beyond your years prelude_5gen!!! :-) This is very true about the costs and marketing strategy!! I am sure they will keep the same rides GT, GT-S, and add an another GT-Z??? who knows, to stick in the 230 horse motor, or do it like in the old days and call it a Supra!!! LOL We don't know for sure. Or even if they are going to production with it. The same is true for Honda! They just came out with the S2000 which competes against the Porsche Boxer and Z3. And it I am sure that all of them are working on motors that can do these things though, its just getting approval from the market. And yes everyone is correct that the GT-S was designed to beat the GS-R But it is in that void spot between the ITR and GSR!, nice place to be I think! Even in Japan the SS Super strut can't beat an ITR in a drag, but suposedly it can corner as well or better.
    All this horsepower will come with a price as a new 200 hp GSR and 240 ITR and 230 hp Celica/Supra would cost more than now! I am happy with the prices now so we can still have a life other than cars and increase performance when we have the money to do so. Otherwise Honda and Toyota will either have to make a limited number of the cars like Honda is with the ITR or otherwise they will all go the way of the TT Supras, 300Z's, RX7's, Stealths, etc. etc. They priced themselves out of the market!!! People can afford a Celica or a GSR or I think even an ITR but pushing that limit will slow sales! And I know Honda and Toyota don't want to do that!! They are both going in the same general direction with the Sports cars, And Toyota learned from the old celica that people won't buy if its priced too high(Supras) or not worth the money(old Celicas) But I think the prices would be around 24000 base for a Celica 23500 for a GSR, And who knows for a ITR. But It will be very interesting to see if Honda and toyota do decide to up the HP!!! Watch out all V8 cars!!! these things will all be runing low 14s!!!!! Wouldn't that be sweet!!!! All this talk about the motor I have gotten off of sales reps like 3 -4 weeks ago on celica files chat site!!! So I am sure it is on a drawing board somewhere but that doesn't mean any of our dreams would come true!!! But I am sure we all hope! So. LOL if the latest Celica was a bomb I would probably picking up a black ITR this summer too!!! I love the power!!! But I definately know Honda has been a leader in NA 4 bangers for years but now with Toyota entering the ring, it will make us all more satisfied in the future!! Then Varaible valve lifts, and cam timing will be just the start of 4 bangers living longer, racing harder, and getting better gas milage than V8 could dream!!! Thats what I want!!! I don't care what import you got! If you see a GSR or ITR or even a GT-S beside a Stang at a stop light were all rooting for the 4 banger!!!
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    mznmzn Member Posts: 727
    Friends, I think this topic has moved beyond Hatchbacks and into the boundaries of the Sports Car conference. Why not use our Search feature to see if a similar topic is already underway?

    carlady/host
This discussion has been closed.