Isn't the end result for a dealer the same, i.e. if a dealer purchases from another dealer at (Invoice - Hold back), the purchasing dealer's cost is the same as a straight-up trade (they get the hold back when they sell the car they received in trade). Also, what is the typical fee, if any, charged for transferring a vehicle from one dealer to another (mileage, time, etc) ?? I am in a situation where a dealer in NC has the car I am looking for and the local dealer here in GA found it. The local dealer said that they would charge me only $500 over their cost to acquire the car from the other dealer. The price quoted is $29,238 but the invoice is $28,038. Did I miss something or is the dealer trying something?
it depends on the brand...but in most cases when a dealer does a swap....the dealers pay actual invoice. Losing the holdback. The original dealer keeps the holdback. So your assumption about where the holdback goes could be wrong. Lets say your buying an Explorer which has $900 or so in holdback...the dealer who has the vehicle you want asks to buy the car outright. no holdback to the selling dealer. or lets say the other dealer says he wants a Focus back in trade...which has $300 in holdback. Now your dealer has lost out on alot of money. There are way to many variables involved in a swap to assume the dealer gets the holdback
Is 28545 a good price for a 2001 9-3 SE 4dr hatch w/auto, metallic paint, and heated seats? I got this in ny which included the factory to dealer incentive
Its' where the inventory of a dealership is put on a line of credit and not paid for until sold. However, inventory can rarely be "floored" for more than a set amount of time, and interest is due on it.
jf_spade-- when you go to the dealer and go through the shopping buying process, MOST (>51%)dealers will be happy to explain it to you -- ask them.
You have to go through the process at more than one dealer and compare the total deals together side by side and do what's best for you and your family -- learn the "Steps of the Sale".
Looking to buy a Toyota using the internet. One of the dealers responded that I could get one for $400 over invoice and sent me a copy of the invoice. It has $445 for Holdback and $222 for Whsl finacial reserve calculated into the invoice price. Am I really expected to pay the holdback? Doesn't the dealer already get this? What the heck is the "Whsl finacial reserve"? The dealer told me that they pay the manufacturer the holdback then get it back from the manufacture when they sell the car. $400 over invoice doesn't sound like such a good deal when its Here is the fees portion of what they e-mailed me: Destination Charge .......................... $ 485.00 TDA ......................................... $ 402.00 Gasoline .................................... $ 6.00 Dealer Holdback ............................. $ 445.00 Whsl. Financial Reserve ..................... $ 222.00 --------- ---------Total ....................................... $22218.00
by 'sent' a copy of the invoice, you mean faxed or was it a e-mail breakdown? It looks right to me, And you can buy it for $400.00 over the dealer invoice? Sounds like a fast, clean deal to me. Happy motoring!
By the way, did receiving a copy of the invoice help or hinder the deal? After receiving the invoice did you have more questions about cost than you did prior to receiving invoice? Who's idea was it to send you the copy?
Your falling into a trap that often makes car buying a real chore...
first of all.. make an offer based upon what you want to pay for the car. Do you really care if they sell you the car for $10 and the mandatory ad fee is $20,000 and your target number is ,$20,010?? what is the difference?
It seems your trying to haggle every line item. I can promise you this will make your car buying experience BAD!!!...
I agree with Frank and Terry...it looks like you got a $400 over deal and its pretty good! Don't screw things up worrying how they got to the number..who cares as long as you get to the number you want to pay.
I wasn't trying to haggle every line item I was just trying to understand it. I went in fully expecting to pay destination and advertising fees. I think the dealer deserves to make a fair profit, but I don't want to get ripped off either. My question came about because i always understood that the dealer (not the salesman) gets the holdback from the manufacture as an incentive to sell the car in a timely manner.
I disagree with audia8q, you don't set a target price and buy a car. The smart shopper finds the car he wants at the price range he is looking in and then finds the dealer who will give the best price and the least bull dookie. My time is worth something to me, but so is $400. More important to me than the money is that I don't want to feel like I'm being conned.
Anyway it turns out that Toyota really does charge the manufactures holdback and fin res. and if you check the Edmonds Inv price it is equal to the Inv price they gave me + the hold back and reserve. Edmond and other car manufactures don't break it out. So this is in fact a legit charge and I feel alot better about buying the car now How much does the dealer really make for $400 over invoice? Invoice + $ 400.00 Destination Charge $ 485.00 TDA $ 402.00 Gasoline ..... $ 6.00 Dealer Holdback . $ 445.00 Whsl. Financial Reserve $ 222.00 Proc Fee $ 287.00 ----------------- Total: $2247 Not bad for them.
One of the other dealers was going to give me a "great price" of $700 over invoice which magicaly turned to $900 and another $200 for a dealer exchange + all of the above when I asked him to break out all the charges and explain them to me. When I declined the offer he said I was doing this the hard way. Yep but saving $700 by shopping around, not bad for a hard days work. Actually this whole process has been both educational and kinda fun in a stressfull kind of way. It's fun to walk out in the middle of a deal, try it sometime Good luck everybody!
It was his idea to send the invoice. Yes I had a lot of questions they all got answered. My first car buying experience 9 yrs ago was completly different, I had no idea what I was doing or how much I ended up actually paying. It was 10 time more stressful and I had buyers remorse for a year afterwards. That WILL NOT happen again. BTW, current car: '93 Chrysler Concorde 187,000 miles. I just found this site the other day and it's great!
Bill is right, sorry. Can a dealer make money selling cars for $1354 profit? I have no idea, I hope they do. But hey nobody complains when JC Penny's sells sweaters after christmas for 75% off.
One of the other cars I'm debating on is a '01 maxima. I will make an offer and if they sell it to me they will lose money guaranteed, but they are already losing money so I'm thinking they may just want to cut their losses. I think it's fair to offer less then Inv on this one because if I buy it I have already lost a year of value on it's resale value, plus I don't like the color.
Since your money is important to you why don't you submit a quote to priceline at 200 over - and be willing to drive an hour or two to get your car. How long could it take to submit the quote? 15 minutes?
Also - setting a target price is THE best way to buy a car. Note I didn't say the way to get the lowest possible price.
Profit is not the same as revenue. It's like saying your pay cheque is all "profit" for you. It would be if you have no expenses to pay for like food, rent, utilities, etc.
The dealership has expenses that need to be paid out of that $1354 before they find any profit.
when people offered $500 **OVER** invoice? It's hard for me to read the title of this thread - "Dealer wants to charge me holdback?" The nerve of the dealer to actually want to stay in business after my car deal! He should give me a low enough price that it puts him out of business! I'll be a good consumer then!
He was just asking a question. He received a copy of the dealer's invoice and didn't understand some of the information listed. So, he came here to get some things clarified.
All in all, he was being very smart
And, his deal is for $400.00 over invoice - are you really ranting about $100.00? Just curious.
I am missing something, but the *HoldBack* is NOT PAID and RETURNED...That is crap...The same is true with *RESERVE*...That is an ADDED F & I charge...
Invoice is Invoice...The Base Price of the car, Ad fees, Gas, Destination...
A *Procurement Fee* sounds like something a pimp charges...
I was being a smart aleck and not quibbling over $100.00. Dealer holdback is money that is "in the air" to offset the financial impact of floor planning a vehicle. The thought that consumers feel they're automatically entitled to the money is crazy.
I'm sure I'll get slammed for this remark, but to explain my position: I can't count the number of "no trade" deals I wrote while at a Chrysler dealer in Texas. Dow Chemical's credit union had great rates and never allowed consumers to pay over $200 - 300 over invoice on new cars. With only $300 profit, a $250 administrative pack and $75 for the salesman, the dealer was already $25 into the holdback. Let's figure this on a Neon where there's only $300 holdback and take out a portion for the other dealership costs and there's little or nothing left. Even if the 40 - 50 new cars deals at no prfit are offset by a few good ones, the bottom line isn't pretty. That's why the concept of someone automatically thinking they're entitled to the holdback is goofy. Most dealers don't even give up holdback on a dealer trade!
Give it a rest! On a loaded up $18,000 Neon, a $300 profit is only 1.6%! I'll bet the guy wouldn't beat up Wal-Mart when they're making 110% on a pair of jeans, and most people pay retail for clothes, jewelry and electronics without a thought.
What do you mean Toyota charges the dealers holdback and then gives it back? So the dealer gets nothing but his own money back and nothing extra for upkeep of having the car on the lot? Even if Toyota did this, why should I pay it if the dealer gets it back? The dealer then gets it twice. Once back from the dealer and then from me. If anything the dealer should be subtracting holdback since by selling you the car he is getting it back from Toyota. He should only charge you holdback if you don't buy the car (which makes as much sense as charging you for it) since he won't be getting it back. You sure the invoice didn't show the holdback as a credit that should be subtracted and not added to the price?
The charges on an invoice have nothing to do with you or any other consumer. They are charges made by the manufacturer to the dealer. Yes, the manufacturer charges the dealer $6.00 for the gas that the car arrives with.
A) The $6 is what the dealer pays for the gas that the car is shipped FROM Toyota TO the dealer with.
This comes up from time to time. Its' simple:
Edmunds lists Invoice of a Toyota Whizzbang at, say, $22,075.
ABC Toyota's Invoice may look like this:
Base Whizzbang XLE V8 AWD NAVI: $21,500 Holdback: $ 575 Gasoline: $ 6 TDA: $ 430 TOTAL INVOICE: $23,011
(TDA Is Toyota Dealer Advertising and covers Toyota's ads that they run. They basically charge their dealers for that but that;s a separate discssion)
So in this case, the car has an invoice to the dealer of $23,011. Even without the extra charges for Gas and the "Oh What a Feeling" commercials..
Its' $22,075. But Toyota itemizes the Holdback.
Bear in mind that theoretically a dealer isnt even supposed to show invoices to the public (Its burined somewhere on page 8769859875698765 of the franchise agreement) so they may not be totally spot-on to what you see on the internet and are designed to be seen by the dealer and the manufacturer/distributor. I.E. They may be confusing, like any other internal corporate document, to an outsider.
Remember everyone it is possible to have a debate on a particular subject without getting personal. I just deleted one post that crossed the line and will delete others if they continue in this direction. Please continue to debate the subject of holdback without getting personal. Thanks and have a great holiday.
didn't get deleted because, for once, I was complimentary. I should get to go to recess early and sit at the head of the class.
I do agree with frank that a lot of people make it very difficult for a person to transact with them in a car deal. I mean, come on - you've already got more info than the dealer does about his own inventory and cost factors - why walk into a dealership with a robber's mask and a chip on your shoulder?
that some folks make it too difficult to buy a car by trying to get too much info about every penny the dealer exchanges and demanding access to the money without regard for dealer survival. I agreed completely.
We all want "a good deal" - isn't getting a 1-3% over invoice deal good enough without demanding the $6 the dealer was invoiced for 8 gallons of fuel? You DO get the fuel, you know. The dealer doesn't take the gas out and make you pay anyway!
Sounds like we've got a lot of salesmen/dealer types on here trying to shift the blame for stressful auto transactions to the buyer.
Nobody is wanting to deny the dealer a profit. Nobody is even wanting to deny the dealer the largest profit he or she can legally make. But if you want to open the J.C. Penney/Wal Mart analogy, you've got a lot of explaining to do.
No, nobody complains about sweater sales at Penney's. Nobody complains that Wal Mart marks up a TV by 100% (though I'd be surprised if it was that high). Because at least I know the next guy who buys the 21 inch Sony at Wal-Mart is going to pay the same markup as me.
What the dealerships and manufacturers have done is set up this byzantine system of invoices that really aren't invoices and retail prices that really aren't retail prices and thrown in holdbacks and ad fees and useless undercoatings and on and on. And there's nothing but the buyer's own persistence and tolerance for sales pressure to keep him or her from paying thousands more than the fellow in the next office who's buying the exact same vehicle.
And what's this nonsense about ad fees?? I'm supposed to pay you an extra itemized fee to advertise your product to me??? You show me any other industry that tries this b.s. and THEN we can start comparing apples to apples.
It's an inherently dishonest process, and yet some of you seem to be wondering why the consumer quibbles over $400. Thank goodness for the Internet - it gives us poor lemmings a fighting chance.
I could say more but we just got rid of a piece of garbage otherwise known as a Kia Sephia so I'm in a pretty good mood this morning.
So it's just about whether you might pay more than your neighbor? Where did you get the idea that everyone is entitled to the same prices on goods as everyone else? What system is in place to protect you from paying more for your house than the identical one next door? Did you get the same mortgage rate? Are you sure you pay the same car insurance as others with the same car and driving record? Are you sure the TV you bought wasn't "on sale" last week and someone paid less than you?
Exactly what other industry's invoicing systems are you comparing to when you describe the car business as byzantine? Have you ever seen how a grocery store operates? Have you seen the invoicing structure for electronics? Computers? Appliances? Pharmaceuticals? Could it be that you consider it confusing because not being in the car business you just don't understand it? Your indignation over ad fees illusrates this. You're happy to see a dealer's invoice for the car itself but you won't acept seeing what other expenses they are invoiced for.
Competitive market forces have caused the situation where ad fees must be itemized. I'm sure dealers everywhere would much prefer it if they could just raise their selling price by the amount of the ad fees and have no need to mention them. These competitive forces make it possible to buy a car at lower mark-ups than ever before yet buyers still want it for less. But that's how a free market works. You may consider it dishonest but I think most North Americans prefer it to a system where everyone pays the same for everything regardless of the buyer's effort or the seller's mark-up.
Whatever expenses a company incurs for advertising, or any other cost incurred to get that product sold, should be reflected in the cost of the product. Under your theory, we would all go down to the local supermarket and instead of seeing "$2.00 a bag" or whatever for potatoes we'd see "25 cents for the potatoes, $1.00 for the trucking company to ship it to my store, 15 cents for the stock boy to unload it, 10 cents for the flyer that I sent you last week that you tossed in the trash, and a quarter for me". Nobody would tolerate that in any other retail setting. Why do we put up with it when it comes to autos?
I like an earlier poster's analogy: If I'm willing to pay $20,000 for a car, it doesn't matter to me if I pay $10 for the car and $19,990 for the advertising. Just set your final price in a fair and equitable manner and the market will take care of the rest.
And I don't buy your "invoicing" argument either. I as a consumer have no reason to inspect the dealers invoice. I shouldn't care about anything but final price. This whole concept of "showing the customer the invoice" is also a tool of the auto industry. It gives the consumer some false notion that they're getting a good deal because it leads him to believe that he's getting the car for $1 over invoice, or whatever, implying that the dealer only makes $1 on the sale. I call b.s. You want to show me a TRUE invoice, that being what the dealer REALLY has to pay for the car he's selling you, maybe I'll listen. But because of all the secret holdbacks and unpublished incentives, us poor unwashed masses out here have no way of knowing. THAT'S why it's deceptive.
btw, an insurance company most certainly can NOT charge different premiums to two people with the same car and same driving record.
because you are buying autos at low single digit mark-ups that's why. As a market gets more and more competitive retailers seek new ways to maintain the profit they require. Everyone complains about how before the internet they paid too much because they had no idea about the dealers costs. Things like ad fees were a non issue because the dealer was able to make a sufficient profit in the selling price.
I didn't realize that sites like edmunds et al were run by the auto industry. Their main drawing point is that they present "dealer invoice."
And you're right, you shouln't care about anything but the final price. So what's with your worry about "true" invoices and "secret" incentives?
Invoices that really aren't invoices and retail prices that really aren't retail prices and -- "thrown in holdbacks" ---
Your kidding .... right ...?
We just kinda throw in the "holdbacks" and manufactor the invoices .... Gheeez, it 2002 .... not 1942 ... Maybe we could all chip in and get you a Time Magazine subscription for your birthday ...l...o...l....(and yes, we have put men on the moon)
Comments
I am in a situation where a dealer in NC has the car I am looking for and the local dealer here in GA found it. The local dealer said that they would charge me only $500 over their cost to acquire the car from the other dealer. The price quoted is $29,238 but the invoice is $28,038. Did I miss something or is the dealer trying something?
Thanks
Shawn
Thanks,
Shawn
or lets say the other dealer says he wants a Focus back in trade...which has $300 in holdback. Now your dealer has lost out on alot of money. There are way to many variables involved in a swap to assume the dealer gets the holdback
rich
1. Is the 2% from the MSRP, the base invoice, or the total invoice?
2. Why is it 2% + 1% of total invoice? Shouldn't it just be 3% of the total invoice? I'm confused as to how it is presented on the list.
3. What is the floor planning fee?
4. Do ALL dealers get a holdback from the manufacturer?
Thank you in advance for answering my questions.
Its' where the inventory of a dealership is put on a line of credit and not paid for until sold. However, inventory can rarely be "floored" for more than a set amount of time, and interest is due on it.
Bill
You have to go through the process at more than one dealer and compare the total deals together side by side and do what's best for you and your family -- learn the "Steps of the Sale".
Am I really expected to pay the holdback? Doesn't the dealer already get this? What the heck is the "Whsl finacial reserve"? The dealer told me that they pay the manufacturer the holdback then get it back from the manufacture when they sell the car. $400 over invoice doesn't sound like such a good deal when its
Here is the fees portion of what they e-mailed me:
Destination Charge .......................... $ 485.00
TDA ......................................... $ 402.00
Gasoline .................................... $ 6.00
Dealer Holdback ............................. $ 445.00
Whsl. Financial Reserve ..................... $ 222.00
--------- ---------Total ....................................... $22218.00
sounds fairly preposturous to me...so does the
Reserve...
Terry.
By the way, did receiving a copy of the invoice help or hinder the deal? After receiving the invoice did you have more questions about cost than you did prior to receiving invoice? Who's idea was it to send you the copy?
first of all.. make an offer based upon what you want to pay for the car. Do you really care if they sell you the car for $10 and the mandatory ad fee is $20,000 and your target number is ,$20,010?? what is the difference?
It seems your trying to haggle every line item. I can promise you this will make your car buying experience BAD!!!...
I agree with Frank and Terry...it looks like you got a $400 over deal and its pretty good! Don't screw things up worrying how they got to the number..who cares as long as you get to the number you want to pay.
Rich
The TDA is a legit charge.
I agree, make an offer based on what you want to pay. But it sounds like a good deal to me.
Bill
I disagree with audia8q, you don't set a target price and buy a car. The smart shopper finds the car he wants at the price range he is looking in and then finds the dealer who will give the best price and the least bull dookie.
My time is worth something to me, but so is $400. More important to me than the money is that I don't want to feel like I'm being conned.
Anyway it turns out that Toyota really does charge the manufactures holdback and fin res. and if you check the Edmonds Inv price it is equal to the Inv price they gave me + the hold back and reserve. Edmond and other car manufactures don't break it out. So this is in fact a legit charge and I feel alot better about buying the car now
How much does the dealer really make for $400 over invoice?
Invoice + $ 400.00
Destination Charge $ 485.00
TDA $ 402.00
Gasoline ..... $ 6.00
Dealer Holdback . $ 445.00
Whsl. Financial Reserve $ 222.00
Proc Fee $ 287.00
-----------------
Total: $2247
Not bad for them.
One of the other dealers was going to give me a "great price" of $700 over invoice which magicaly turned to $900 and another $200 for a dealer exchange + all of the above when I asked him to break out all the charges and explain them to me. When I declined the offer he said I was doing this the hard way. Yep but saving $700 by shopping around, not bad for a hard days work.
Actually this whole process has been both educational and kinda fun in a stressfull kind of way. It's fun to walk out in the middle of a deal, try it sometime
Good luck everybody!
Yes I had a lot of questions they all got answered.
My first car buying experience 9 yrs ago was completly different, I had no idea what I was doing or how much I ended up actually paying. It was 10 time more stressful and I had buyers remorse for a year afterwards. That WILL NOT happen again.
BTW, current car: '93 Chrysler Concorde 187,000 miles.
I just found this site the other day and it's great!
So that's actually $893 less than that.
Bill
Bill "
Bill is right, sorry. Can a dealer make money selling cars for $1354 profit? I have no idea, I hope they do. But hey nobody complains when JC Penny's sells sweaters after christmas for 75% off.
One of the other cars I'm debating on is a '01 maxima. I will make an offer and if they sell it to me they will lose money guaranteed, but they are already losing money so I'm thinking they may just want to cut their losses. I think it's fair to offer less then Inv on this one because if I buy it I have already lost a year of value on it's resale value, plus I don't like the color.
Don't have a Anxiety attack over it, it's 4 bucks over FAC, so buy it..enjoy it ..and have some fun --- this, is not fun..
Terry.
Since your money is important to you why don't you submit a quote to priceline at 200 over - and be willing to drive an hour or two to get your car. How long could it take to submit the quote? 15 minutes?
Also - setting a target price is THE best way to buy a car. Note I didn't say the way to get the lowest possible price.
It is not exactly $1,354 in profit, but Im not gonna have that conversation again.
But new cars arent terribly profitable for most dealers.
On to the Maxima... Umm, why buy a car you dont like?
Bill
The dealership has expenses that need to be paid out of that $1354 before they find any profit.
Sorry, I ranted. It'll never happen again.
All in all, he was being very smart
And, his deal is for $400.00 over invoice - are you really ranting about $100.00? Just curious.
Jackie
PAID and RETURNED...That is crap...The same is true with *RESERVE*...That is an ADDED F & I charge...
Invoice is Invoice...The Base Price of the car,
Ad fees, Gas, Destination...
A *Procurement Fee* sounds like something a pimp
charges...
Just drive down the street where the Toyota dealer is, and let him show you a invoice ... once you see one, you will get the hang of it..
I think you have been around those Vdubs too long l.o.l.
Terry.
I'm sure I'll get slammed for this remark, but to explain my position: I can't count the number of "no trade" deals I wrote while at a Chrysler dealer in Texas. Dow Chemical's credit union had great rates and never allowed consumers to pay over $200 - 300 over invoice on new cars. With only $300 profit, a $250 administrative pack and $75 for the salesman, the dealer was already $25 into the holdback. Let's figure this on a Neon where there's only $300 holdback and take out a portion for the other dealership costs and there's little or nothing left. Even if the 40 - 50 new cars deals at no prfit are offset by a few good ones, the bottom line isn't pretty. That's why the concept of someone automatically thinking they're entitled to the holdback is goofy. Most dealers don't even give up holdback on a dealer trade!
Give it a rest! On a loaded up $18,000 Neon, a $300 profit is only 1.6%! I'll bet the guy wouldn't beat up Wal-Mart when they're making 110% on a pair of jeans, and most people pay retail for clothes, jewelry and electronics without a thought.
Even if Toyota did this, why should I pay it if the dealer gets it back? The dealer then gets it twice. Once back from the dealer and then from me. If anything the dealer should be subtracting holdback since by selling you the car he is getting it back from Toyota. He should only charge you holdback if you don't buy the car (which makes as much sense as charging you for it) since he won't be getting it back. You sure the invoice didn't show the holdback as a credit that should be subtracted and not added to the price?
Edmunds lists Invoice of a Toyota Whizzbang at, say, $22,075.
ABC Toyota's Invoice may look like this:
Base Whizzbang XLE V8 AWD NAVI: $21,500
Holdback: $ 575
Gasoline: $ 6
TDA: $ 430
TOTAL INVOICE: $23,011
(TDA Is Toyota Dealer Advertising and covers Toyota's ads that they run. They basically charge their dealers for that but that;s a separate discssion)
So in this case, the car has an invoice to the dealer of $23,011. Even without the extra charges for Gas and the "Oh What a Feeling" commercials..
Its' $22,075. But Toyota itemizes the Holdback.
Bear in mind that theoretically a dealer isnt even supposed to show invoices to the public (Its burined somewhere on page 8769859875698765 of the franchise agreement) so they may not be totally spot-on to what you see on the internet and are designed to be seen by the dealer and the manufacturer/distributor. I.E. They may be confusing, like any other internal corporate document, to an outsider.
Bill
Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards
I do agree with frank that a lot of people make it very difficult for a person to transact with them in a car deal. I mean, come on - you've already got more info than the dealer does about his own inventory and cost factors - why walk into a dealership with a robber's mask and a chip on your shoulder?
We all want "a good deal" - isn't getting a 1-3% over invoice deal good enough without demanding the $6 the dealer was invoiced for 8 gallons of fuel? You DO get the fuel, you know. The dealer doesn't take the gas out and make you pay anyway!
Yeah...
Something like that
Bill
Who promises to behave!
Nobody is wanting to deny the dealer a profit. Nobody is even wanting to deny the dealer the largest profit he or she can legally make. But if you want to open the J.C. Penney/Wal Mart analogy, you've got a lot of explaining to do.
No, nobody complains about sweater sales at Penney's. Nobody complains that Wal Mart marks up a TV by 100% (though I'd be surprised if it was that high). Because at least I know the next guy who buys the 21 inch Sony at Wal-Mart is going to pay the same markup as me.
What the dealerships and manufacturers have done is set up this byzantine system of invoices that really aren't invoices and retail prices that really aren't retail prices and thrown in holdbacks and ad fees and useless undercoatings and on and on. And there's nothing but the buyer's own persistence and tolerance for sales pressure to keep him or her from paying thousands more than the fellow in the next office who's buying the exact same vehicle.
And what's this nonsense about ad fees?? I'm supposed to pay you an extra itemized fee to advertise your product to me??? You show me any other industry that tries this b.s. and THEN we can start comparing apples to apples.
It's an inherently dishonest process, and yet some of you seem to be wondering why the consumer quibbles over $400. Thank goodness for the Internet - it gives us poor lemmings a fighting chance.
I could say more but we just got rid of a piece of garbage otherwise known as a Kia Sephia so I'm in a pretty good mood this morning.
Exactly what other industry's invoicing systems are you comparing to when you describe the car business as byzantine? Have you ever seen how a grocery store operates? Have you seen the invoicing structure for electronics? Computers? Appliances? Pharmaceuticals? Could it be that you consider it confusing because not being in the car business you just don't understand it? Your indignation over ad fees illusrates this. You're happy to see a dealer's invoice for the car itself but you won't acept seeing what other expenses they are invoiced for.
Competitive market forces have caused the situation where ad fees must be itemized. I'm sure dealers everywhere would much prefer it if they could just raise their selling price by the amount of the ad fees and have no need to mention them. These competitive forces make it possible to buy a car at lower mark-ups than ever before yet buyers still want it for less. But that's how a free market works. You may consider it dishonest but I think most North Americans prefer it to a system where everyone pays the same for everything regardless of the buyer's effort or the seller's mark-up.
I like an earlier poster's analogy: If I'm willing to pay $20,000 for a car, it doesn't matter to me if I pay $10 for the car and $19,990 for the advertising. Just set your final price in a fair and equitable manner and the market will take care of the rest.
And I don't buy your "invoicing" argument either. I as a consumer have no reason to inspect the dealers invoice. I shouldn't care about anything but final price. This whole concept of "showing the customer the invoice" is also a tool of the auto industry. It gives the consumer some false notion that they're getting a good deal because it leads him to believe that he's getting the car for $1 over invoice, or whatever, implying that the dealer only makes $1 on the sale. I call b.s. You want to show me a TRUE invoice, that being what the dealer REALLY has to pay for the car he's selling you, maybe I'll listen. But because of all the secret holdbacks and unpublished incentives, us poor unwashed masses out here have no way of knowing. THAT'S why it's deceptive.
btw, an insurance company most certainly can NOT charge different premiums to two people with the same car and same driving record.
I didn't realize that sites like edmunds et al were run by the auto industry. Their main drawing point is that they present "dealer invoice."
And you're right, you shouln't care about anything but the final price. So what's with your worry about "true" invoices and "secret" incentives?
Your kidding .... right ...?
We just kinda throw in the "holdbacks" and manufactor the invoices ....
Gheeez, it 2002 .... not 1942 ... Maybe we could all chip in and get you a Time Magazine subscription for your birthday ...l...o...l....(and yes, we have put men on the moon)
Terry.