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Mazda 323

1235710

Comments

  • reremrerem Member Posts: 2
    I have now ruled out timing belt....she gets spark,cranks over,I think I may need to start worrying about fuel injection or damaged heads. Probably some cheap sensor will turn out to be the hassle....but I've always been able to figure out what's wrong--and this has me stumped for now.
  • sschmidsschmid Member Posts: 28
    I would sure like to know where these are in a junkyard. I am in need of a driverside windshield moulding and a fuel sending switch for a 92 and have not been able to find one for ages. For now i just reset the tripometer every tank and just have no moulding there.
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    Seems that not all e-mail is reaching me.
    Okay, check your fuel pump pressure and regulator. How many miles are on it? Be patient, you are in the stop and think a while zone.

    Remember, it takes air, fuel, fire and timing to run an engine. What about the mass airflow sensor? There is a switch in there that controls the injectors on the 89, I think the 92 has one as well. There is also an on/off switch for the fuel pump in it. Have you tried an alternative fuel source to see if it runs on that? If so, then timing and spark are good for sure then it is clear that fuel is the problem. Get a wiring diagram for the injection system from the library because you are not going to get this from a regular auto parts store. You now need the professional level info to trouble shoot.
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    Junkyard no help? Get ready to whip out the plastic. Try internet searches for it with Google or, call a dealer that will get it for you if you are really serious enough to pay the money. My dealer here digs stuff up for me, I pay the price as well. Diamond Mazda, 1-800-527-0499.
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    Hi everyone... glad to see so many 323 lovers here!

    Maybe someone can clue me in as to where the oxygen sensor is on the 323? Mine poor car lost all power (torque really I guess) on the way home before the summer and after managing to replace the fuel filter and even the fuel pump myself (no small feat given my lack of skills) it didn't solve anything.

    So now I'm being told to try disconnecting the o2 sensor temporarily as it may be that or a "clogged cat" since it doesn't want to run in the morning (it will barely run once a day, refuse to restart after it stalls and still has no "power" to get over 20mph)

    Here's an old manual picture - any clues?
    http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2041/mazda32316xg2.png

    Thanks for any help!
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    1st....PARK IT: DO NOT RUN IT until you check the following! Sudden loss of power is a very good indicator of the belt jumping off one tooth. Yes, this engine will still run one tooth off without causing damage, but it will hardly move the car. But if you keep trying to push it and the belt breaks, it will be valve job time! AKA valves dancing on the piston heads. Also check your distubutor wires to make sure they are correct. I had someone pull a prank on me years ago by switching two opposing wires to be 180 out. They must have thought this girl would not figure it out!

    As I have said in previous posts get a service manual for the next part Inspect timing belt and timing to see if it has jumped time. If so, proceed with replacement of belt, crank and cam seals. Also, if you are at a 120K interval, change out the tensioner and water pump as well. Why, because they are going to fail soon if they have not been changed yet! They are also a pain to go back for.

    When you check the top timing mark, lay a pocket screwdriver point on the mark and across the belt to see if the cam gear notch lines up with the back mark. Do not count on your eyes for this. I have seen way too many gears off a tooth when sighted before! Done it wrong myself as well!

    I lay a good 75% bet on this one that is your problem if it appeared suddenly and your foot is much heavier than mine! Sudden loss of power is rare on these cars if well maintained! Ours is now at 260K miles. It is an 89, a very close sister to your 88! Almost identical. She has behaved well since the last headache at 200K.

    2nd, get back to me if number 1 fails, I have copies of pro repair manuals and check flow chart lists. Let me know how it goes, good or bad also look at my earlier posts for more info.

    O2 sensor is located in the front on the exhaust pipe just behind the radiator fan. It rarely causes what you are talking about. A mild run rich yes, but not detectable to your nose, not this kind of loss of power!
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    I greatly appreciate your advice (especially as another woman - my neighbor walked over to gawk yesterday in the apartment parking lot and said "gee you don't see too many women working on their cars"! LOL :surprise: )

    However the timing belt is going to be way outside my skill range. I don't have tools or knowledge like that (and no manuals). I am amazed enough I managed to change the fuel pump without endangering myself (envisioning electricity inside the gasoline tank as not a good thing, although the jury is still out on that one as I haven't gotten it running since.)

    It may be "too late" now given what you are saying - and to be honest, with all the calls I've done for service price checks, you are the first to give me such advice about the timing belt, everyone else is saying other things. The car was indeed parked all summer after I managed to make it back home at 20mph when it lost power but after I changed the fuel filter last month I did take it out for a two block run when I was thrilled to see it startup (only to find it still had no "power" :sick: )

    A few more details:

    1. Found the O2 sensor and yes it changed nothing when disconnected :(

    2. I just realized I didn't mentioned the mileage? It's over 200k now. It's been around and I am probably the fourth owner if not more

    3. Did I mention the one time when I do get it to start I have to pump the accelerator pedal continuously for a minute to get it to eventually idle? I've only successfully made that happen twice over the summer.

    The last repair shop I got a quote from this morning warns me the car has so many miles "it may have lost all compression". Does that mean the engine is at an end?

    Oh, I did replace the distributor wires myself this past week after I broke the old set trying to check them for contact/corrosion when pulling them off. But since I only replaced one wire at a time I am fairly certain I put them back in the right order. How do I check if it's the factory-correct order in the first place?

    Last but not least I'd never put in a waterpump at this point as the car is just not worth it - suspension is shot and I only use it for local travel 3-4 miles out, park, and 3-4 miles back twice a week (and obviously lived without it all summer). I am a "poor student" so I can't put more than another $100 or so before I call it quits. Just trying to eek out another year (7000 miles) out of it somehow...

    (sorry I don't know any proper terminology so tell me if I am being confusing...)
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    I just re-read what you said carefully.

    I guess the next logical step is for me to examine the belt in the first place to see if it did finally break by me trying to restart it - do you agree?

    I don't even know where this mysterious belt is and how to look at it to see if it's broken (let alone if it's off a notch). Is this something fairly straightforward or is it hard to get to?
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    If you can bear children, you can do this!!!! Patience and less than nine months will do this job! Ability to follow a cook book is a must! Realize that you are learning along the way. Once you have learned it on one car, you just have to learn the differences on the next one! Theory is very much the same. First time like having the first kid. It takes the longest. The next time you do it, will be much quicker. Replacement interval is every 60K miles. That assumes no problems have occurred though.

    Keep the following in mind when ever you work on a car, it takes four things for one to run. 1) gas, 2) air 3) fire and 4)timing. Take one away and it does not want to run. On this one, we are concerned from what I have heard with timing. I am assuming distributor and wires have not be bothered, so we are looking first at timing belt.

    Understood about the guys, when hubby goes to junk yard with me to pull major parts like a transmission, it blows guys minds to find out who heads up the shop between us!

    Try this first. I just recalled that hubby told me how this particular vehicle can act just like a timing belt if the cap and rotor are bad. This is cheap and easy to do. Follow directions below for where the distributor is. It usually takes a cross point or Phillips screw driver to remove them. Keep the wires on the cap. You may remove the center one carefully. Try not to break it or you will have to replace the entire set. Each wire has to go back to the same exact place it came from. Be sure not to mix them up. Masking tape helps here. Mark the tape and wrap it around the wire so you know where it goes from which tower on the cap to which spark plug. At this point you only need to be concerned with the distributor cap end.

    Once you remove the cap, it should be oil free, which it will not be if it is high mileage car. There should be next to no trash on the inside metal parts on the rotor and cap. The rotor is held on by a small screw in the side of it. If the parts look questionable replace them both. Service manual will help with this as well.

    Okay, many auto parts stores carry or have Haynes or Chiltons' repair manuals. If they do not have this one, they can order it. I also have a dealer manual for ours as well. Been into the wiring and fuel injection on it as well. The Chiltons' we have is "Mazda 323/626/929/GLC/MX-6/RX-7 1978-89 Repair Manual. Number (8581) 46800." If you can not find this exact book, check your local library for a copy. Amazon.com should have a few as well. If you can get this particular book, I can walk you into and out of this project more easily. If you have no tools, Harbor Freight is your best source. They do sell some trash tools, but I can help you with that as well. Review the section on tools, then I can tell you what you may need as you proceed with checks/repairs.

    Back to book, page 3-50 starts for the 86-89 non turbo 323 engine timing belt procedure. I assume you have a non turbo engine which is what most of the units out there are. Now face the car. Look at the top of the engine. The very top silver part is the valve cover. On the left hand is your oil fill. Opposite end to your left is the big black round plastic cover is the timing belt cover. To your right with the smaller usual black round thing with wires sticking out of it is the distributor and cap! Point I am making here is that I can walk you right into and out of where you need to go. Chances are you may have found or came close to the oxygen sensor from the last message post. If not, turn to page 4-15. There it is! Oh, forget that wrench they are talking about. It will not work! I have come up with methods that do!

    Note that this book covers several different vehicles and engines. So when ever you read a procedure, make sure you are following the one for your car. Be aware, I have caught mistakes in repair manuals. So I use to have some guy I could ask years ago. Now I am the one who knows it all and the guys are scared to ask me! You can bet though, one of them will be looking at these posts down the road convincing wife that he knows his stuff! Yeah right!

    Just confirmed with hubby, distributor cap and rotor on this car will do the same thing. Lets start with that first.
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    Oh, I forgot to add, if that timing belt breaks, the engine will not run and will most likely have serious damage.
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    I really appreciate all your time trying to explain the process. I've thought deeply about this all day and while it depresses me greatly to be without the hope of a car for awhile I think I am going to have to give up at this point - it's well beyond my time, money and resources for now.

    First I need to sincerely apologize and update you with some critical info after I went and checked directly on the odometer - the car was *not* at 200k, it was at 238k (when the cable snapped earlier this year so it stopped, so add a couple thousand to that). So bingo, sounds exactly like that 60k/120k interval you are talking about. I'm probably screwed even if it hasn't broken entirely already.

    Secondly I don't have anything like a shaded garage and my landlord is probably not going to like me taking apart the car in the parking lot everyday - and I won't like it either in the 90+ degree sun here.

    The two closest shops here want $500-$600 to replace the belt+waterpump+tensioner (not to mention the tow cost) so I assume this is far from a trivial task. That's worth more than the entire car itself. Even at half that cost I would not pour it into this car at this point.

    It's really hard to make this call but I'm going to have to give up and start saving for the next clunker. (Though I'd buy another 323 if I could find one - rare from what I've seen).

    Now I need to recoup the cost of paying the insurance all summer and the $100+ in parts I threw in at out desperation. Sigh, oh well. Expensive lesson learned.

    But I sincerely thank you for your time and effort. If it wasn't for your logical diagnostic, I'd still be looking at things like "clogged cat" in hopelessness and throwing more wasted money at it. :(
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    238K.....I know that mileage point well. If you are willing to risk less than $20. Check that distributor cap! I bet that it has oil in it which will shut it down just like you mentioned. Change it without question if it does. Dry out the base as well as possible with a dry rag.

    I had to modify the old distributor because of oil flooding!!! Take a Phillips screwdriver like I mentioned before and pull the cap off. Very simple job. Oil on inside, change both the cap and rotor and she should be running again! I have seen these cars junked out because someone did not know about this high mileage problem! Simple job and next to no mess even in an apartment parking lot! If this fixes it like I suspect, keep a new cap and rotor in the car from now on. The will fail again down the road again from oil flooding. Because of that factor, quality of the cap and rotor is no longer a factor. Buy the cheap ones! Do not be scared to walk into an auto parts store, more and more women are working there! More and more of us have learned this trade! We will answer your questions if we know. Find the gal who knows her stuff and do not hesitate to ask questions. There are no stupid questions in this trade, just stupid answers!

    Let me know how it goes. I have had many a boring day like this wondering if I could ever make it run again. Now I rarely have that problem any more. I spend less on cars now than I did when I bought them new years ago and we have 5 of them now. All free and clear, running and yes, very old! Less than what I pay for a new one with comprehensive insurance on a new one. Speaking of new ones, they just get that much more harder and complicated to work on.

    The 323 is one very good little car from back then. Even better than some of the Toyota's out there. One of the real good Mazda's left out there. I would buy it from you if you happened to be in Louisiana and it is a hatchback. Without even looking, I bet that car has a manual transmission in it. Most likely a five speed. A rare one, but a good one at that!
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    I post this message for all owners of 323's to alert you of an oil flooding problem on the 1.5 liter engines in the distributor system. Symptoms, hard start, poor performance. Erratic spark on plug wires, but consistent on ignition coil lead. Diagnosis, spark grounding out internaly. Problem occurs between 150K to 250K miles or there abouts.

    Here is what happens. As the engine wears out, the internal blowby pressure goes up. When that pressure goes up, more oil is forced into the distributor which gets into the cap and rotor grounding out the spark. If you use synthetic like we do on a new or rebuilt engine, this problem becomes more pronounced. The oil exists the distributor on the top of the transmission bell housing leaving a big mess over time. This same oil leakage occurs at a much smaller scale around 80K and up normally.

    Remedy. For those with little skill. Keep a new cap, rotor and dry rag with you at all times and a screwdriver to replace it with. Dry out oil in distributor base to your best ability.

    Those with more skill. The 90-96 engines do not have oil holes in the bottom of the distributor shaft bearings. Mazda clearly realized this problem in later years. So on the 86-89 units first disassemble and clean all distributor parts. Lubricate where proper with lithuim base grease. I found some brads used to hang window vinyl shades to be about right for hole plugs. Cut the tips of the nails off short enough so they do not impede mechanical operation of the distributor rotation or advance. Press them into those two holes as proper. If you are using mineral base oil, considering using only one brad plug. You can always go back and add the other one if need be. Not sure how well two will work at this time. If you are using synthetic oil like me, plug both holes. Believe me, that synthetic oil will get in the shaft assembly!

    Reinstall and set timing as needed. Still keep a cap and rotor handy, but you will not need to change them very often. As we all know, these things happen when it is least convient!
  • hatchbackqueenhatchbackqueen Member Posts: 10
    Hi,

    My 323 is a '92 that I bought in '94 when it was sold back to the dealership by the first owner. In 2001 it brought me to California (from British Columbia) where I now have an 80-mile roundtrip freeway commute 4 days a week. I just topped 300K and have never owned a car this long or been this happy with one. Basically it's required regular oil changes, I do the timing belt every 100,000 km (and did the water pump at the same time the last time) and wear-and-tear repairs. Even if I were mechanically competent, which I'm not, I wouldn't have the free time to work on it since I work full-time and am finishing a doctorate.

    Something my mechanic hasn't heard or been able to figure out is a weird noise when the car starts on cooler to cold mornings (i.e. I didn't hear it all summer and it's just started up again). It's somewhere between a scrape and a rattle. It gets quieter as the engine gets warmer. I admit I haven't taken the time to start the car on a cooler morning and open the hood to look if I can see exactly what's making the noise, if I could. The noise gets pretty loud when it's cold and I'm worried because I'm moving to the midwest in the next few months and worry that whatever that noise is, is going to get a whole lot louder in that much colder climate, and possibly signify a real problem. Now we're heading into another 100-degree heatwave so I won't be able to hear it and to go look under the hood for a while.

    For various reasons I'd like to try to hold out till I can get a 2009 car--since Mazda doesn't make anything like this (in the same price range) anymore, I'm thinking about other makes that look to have interesting new versions that year (i.e. fall 2008). So this noise may be nothing, or it may mean something I should be paying attention to and that could cost mega $$. Any suggestions as to what could be causing it? :shades:
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    Remember the 238k is when the speedometer cable broke so it's at least 1-2k more since that. I really only did drive it twice a week though.

    I would definitely be willing to try 20 dollars more but I actually did take apart the distributor (that's the rotar thingie that all the spark plug wires go into right?)

    I really didn't know what I was looking at but it was on the advice that maybe it was worn - when I looked in it didn't seem worn or dirty inside, so I gave up on that possibility.

    Would the distributor explain though why the check engine light comes on and it won't restart after the first attempt? Doesn't sound plausible.

    Maybe I will try to find someone willing to let me borrow their digital camera for a few days and start taking photos of various things to see what you think.

    Honestly it's just depressing to dwell on because I got all excited that I was able to change the fuel pump myself and felt so sure that made sense to fix it. I'm not afraid of going into a autoparts store but the only one within biking distance never has what I need (they didn't even have the spark plug wires I broke) so I just ebay everything and wait a few days (it's always cheaper too).

    Sorry I'm no where near Louisiana. I've got a feeling when I do eventually afford another "junker" and give up completely on the mazda I'll still get a couple hundred off craiglist for it still if I am patient and the landlord doesn't get upset with an untagged car in the lot. It's got two new tires on it and a fullsized spare.

    ps. How do I safely test that I replaced the fuel pump correctly? Since I've done that I've never got it to completely run, even with the accelerator pumping. It may be a coincidence but I don't trust my work (or the cheap part from ebay). I can see it's getting voltage on the meter when I crank but I don't know what else to do beyond that.

    I'm going to have to borrow and recharge the battery again this week if I am going to try some more. Sigh.
  • sschmidsschmid Member Posts: 28
    When and if you get rid of that 92 I would love a couple of parts from it. I have been unable to find a junker here in the northeast and mine is a baby with only 130K on it. As a poor student I need to keep her going for a long time yet!! Just keep my email for if you need it (sschmid@juno.com)
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    Check out the Toyota Yaris with a five speed. No timing belt on that 1.5 liter either! About $14K.

    Now to noise. High pitch not too loud screaming noise? Has the car had Penzoil or Quaker State oil in it? If so, get rid of that oil fast! Use a WIX oil filter on it as well. Parafin. is the problem and it builds up blocking the oil passages restricting oil flow especially at lower temperatures. What are your outside temp ranges there? What oil brands and weights are you using. I understand mileage to be 300k mostly highway I assume.

    If you can, get a mechanics stethoscope from Harbor freight and try to locate the noise source. Holler back at me, I have a few tricks that might pull you out of this one. While at a store, see if you can find any Marvel Mystery Oil. Some Wal-Marts have it. That is an option I am thinking about.
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    Hi, some hopeful news!

    By pestering all my friends if they knew anyone "mechanical" I managed to find someone who supposedly knows his stuff and is going to come out and see what he can make of it.

    When I mentioned it's likely the timing belt he asked me how much the shops were wanting to fix it and said he'd be far less.

    He'll be by today or tomorrow so I'll size him up and see if he seems to know what he is doing. Maybe I'll be keeping this old 323 just yet! :)
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    Sorry for the delay. Between my computer locking up on my last attempted post to you and my asthma problems I am being a bit slow. Health is not the best, so that slows things down a bit for me. Breathing gets rough and scary at times. As long as you can hang in this, I will give it my best. Shame I can not fix me.

    Okay. The more info that you can give me on the problem, the more accurate I can diagnose on this end.

    Tell him to hold up on the changing timing belt. Lets look at the simple stuff first and recheck your work and the fuel pump. You may have nothing more than a weak battery! That turned out to be part of my fuel pump headache a few years ago. Had to go back and look over my service notes for yours!

    You mentioned that car was running before you changed fuel pump. On ours the original fuel pump died around 200K. Now that you mentioned it. That was a nightmare repair problem that took me a while to figure out what had happened. So heads up. You are correct to consider testing the fuel pump pressure on the new pump if the car is not running at all now after changing the pump. For starters, if your battery is too weak, the car will not start. It will crank. The Carter replacement pump is a bit picky on voltage. If your cranking volts, reading taken while cranking engine is 10 or less, your fuel pressure will not be high enough to start the engine.

    Our old pump died because of being low volume and pressure. If the fuel pressure is not high enough, even though the injector fires, the fuel pressure will not be high enough to force the spring plunger open on the injector. This results in poor fuel delivery and results in as you guess it, not wanting to run or run at all.

    Have him look at my earlier posts on this problem so he sees where this is and what is going on. Then:

    First verify valve timing marks to be sure they are safe engine since this is an interference engine. Correct as needed.

    Second, verify the distributor cap and rotor for clean oil free parts. Remember post on oil problem. Replace if needed. If still not running after this, continue on.

    So third, perform the cranking voltage test. 10 volts or lower at the battery while cranking. Replace the battery with a good hot one. Do not even bother trying to recharge it if it has a history of age and re charging. Once that is out of the question and if car is still not running, then perform a fuel pressure test. Make sure you use a fuel pump pressure tester designed to read high pressures. Use only fuel line marked for fuel injection use only! Install tester first between the filter and engine. The fuel filter is a black cylinder on the back firewall with two hoses coming out of it. By putting the tester there first, you will also be checking the filter for flow as well. Crank engine or run it to check fuel pressure. It will build up very quickly to 30 psi or so if it is working. If pressure does not get there move tester to before fuel filter. If pressure is good before the filter, then filter is clogged. If pressure is too low. Pump has either too low voltage, reverify voltage for fuel pump this time while cranking or the pump is possibly defective. Have some other checks to give you if this is the case. Advise of these results for those additional tests.

    If you have operating pressure, continue on with this: Now pause a bit for the starter to rest, and repeat the crank or go ahead if engine is running and crimp the line after the fuel pressure tester to check how high the pressure will go. As soon as the pressure peaks release the crimp. That peak pressure should be anywhere from 50-70 psi. it should go up very quickly and then suddenly stop.

    So for some specs from memory. Running fuel pressure should be about 30-34 psi. There is a fuel regulator that rarely fails on these things located on the fuel rail. It should hold fuel pressure around 30-32 psi.

    Okay, even if he is looking at this car, keep your head under the hood and learn. Because we are where the pros go now. If the above fails, we have some more checks to make. Let me know how it goes.

    Engine check light. These cars have very little brains, thank goodness. If the light goes out, we are most likely all right. If it stays on, we have a problem to look into.

    Everything I have written above is a process to prevent any major engine damage if the timing is off. So follow the repair order to make sure that timing is okay first. While that top cover is off the timing belt, inspect it. No oil should be in there. The belt should look like it is new even after 60K of service. Service life of belt should be under 60K. At this point, we just want to be sure the timing is correct before we go cranking on it.

    Oh, one more thing..... you are where many guys have already walked away from the car and gave up. Hang in there, I think you will either have it running or know why it is not running soon enough.

    Glad you know how to use a volt ohm meter. If we have to dig into the fuel injection electronic system, you will need that knowledge! There are a lot of switches that control that fuel pump!
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    Thanks for even more good ideas. Hopefully this fellow will be out here tomorrow, he didn't make it today. Sorry you are having health problems - I've got my share of issues too so I can definitely sympathize. Hope you feel better soon!

    I took the battery out of the car and I am charging it again overnight to be certain since the last couple of times I did manage to get it to run it was with a fully topped off battery (it read 12.46 volts with no load.

    The distributor is definitely clean inside - I opened it again to be certain.

    I don't know why but I have a strong feeling you were right the first time around about the timing belt. The person who sold me the car was mechanically skilled and I bet they knew that the 60k points were critical and knew to get rid of it soon (though they didn't rip me off because they gave me a great price).

    There are $55 timing belt/water pump/tensioner kits on ebay, so if this guy confirms it's likely the belt and can keep his cost under $200 I'll go for that. The car also had a overheating problem, perhaps a new water pump will help that as well.

    ps. The car seemed very, very low on oil (though there are no oil leaks from what I can tell) That wouldn't cause power loss right?
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    That is very common to dump a car before having to change the timing belt and everything else. Don't forget the front seals as well! They will leak later on and they will ruin your work. Also you may want to consider Wal-Mart oil. Good stuff from all of my testing here.

    Watch the oil level closely. Engine only holds a bit over 3 quarts. Not hard to burn it up on low oil. Overheating could be caused by a bad thermostat. Engine out of time or several other factors. Be careful around that thermoswith.

    near the thermostat housing. A lot of people break them and it is a dealer item only! It controls the radiator fan. Radiator could also be clogged some at 238K. Ours has had a few radiators in it.

    Power loss, no visible oil leaks. May be burning it then. Mileage is high enough for that to be the case. If it is burning it. Pull the spark plugs out of the head and check them. If they are black to a wet black they are oil fouled for sure! Good burning plugs burn a brownish grey. Change out the plugs to one heat range up from stock. Check the ones in the engine to see if they are the original type heat range. If not, try to find out what heat range they are. Yes, this would cause a power loss. Pay attention to the color of the exhaust when you start driving if again. It will tell you a lot about engine condition. Smokes when you first start up, valve seals are bad. Smokes under heavy decerration while in gear, worn rings. Don't panic if it does, because depending on your decisions I may get you a lot more time out of it than you may think!

    Hmmmm,charging up that battery again. 12.64 volts may not be there when you crank it. Have someone crank it while reading the voltage. Below 10, get another battery. Close to 10, start thinking that way with winter coming up.

    Follow that gut instinct, it has saved me way too many times!
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    Well he came out but he forgot his compression test kit so he's coming back tomorrow. He showed me where to even look at the belt (it was easy, how embarassing - three screws and he just watched it turn while I cranked) and the belt is not broken.

    But he does want $300 to replace the belt/waterpump (I'd buy the parts off ebay for $55). He says to first test the compression first though which makes sense.

    Honestly I'm not going to do the $300. It's not worth it. Unless you really, really, really think I can sanely replace it myself (and there is compression still of course) this car is gone :cry: :sick:
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    Now you see why I said to get the book! It is all easy when you know what you are doing and the book tells you almost everything you need to know.

    Compression test? 238K miles, it is going to be low! That is normal for an old engine. If he checked the timing marks he would know if it jumped time. Clearly I see he may not know what this means. I also do not think he knows what an interference engine is! Your problem has nothing to do with the belt breaking. If it jumped time just one tooth the belt would still be in place! If it broke or jumped more than one tooth the valves would be bent and compression zero on several and maybe all cyl1nders. Look at the underside of the belt, look at the gear. See how they have grooves in them. Those are the teeth that hold that engine in time. You would have seen all of this if you got the book and read and looked at the pictures in it by now. Might even be driving the car by now!

    $300, I am not convinced totally the belt is the problem until you check those timing marks. Get the book to read up on it or be ready to pay someone high tuition. The belt may be due for service, but lets fix the problem at hand first instead of guessing. That is why I have said to check the timing marks first.

    If the engine had been running smoothly before and the engine is in time, then there is little likely hood the main engine mechanical is the problem. This is a Japanese engine not an American. They hold up well if treated well. They get junked out too early because most people do not know what they have or how to treat the little cars.

    I am willing to bet that he has mostly experience on American models. That experience is either limited or he is looking to pad a bill and take the car for non-payment. Young guy I suspect.

    Might want to check my profile as well. I have turned a wrench for over 40 years! Just about seen it all, but still smart enough to check my work out of a manual! Different car makers do things differently. So a good mechanic has professional repair manuals, usually called Mitchell Manuals.

    Give the earlier flow chart a try, it might surprise you. You just about have the first step complete.
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    Hiya, more news for maybe more ideas.

    Self-Mechanic #2 comes out and visits (these are nice craigslist folks, be gentle, lol) He drives a toyota corolla that's even older with many more miles than my 323 so that's promising in a weird way.

    1. Shows me the timing belt seems to be lined up just fine by looking at the mark on top and seeing the dot lined up with the notch down below - so unless we are missing something it's actually not the belt!

    2. Based on the sound (speed I guess) of the cranking he thinks there is enough compression still in the engine - he also didn't have a compression kit with him but would come back out for a fee and test that

    3. There is definitely spark

    4. he sprayed in fuel (carb stuff) and it didn't change anything so he doesn't think it's a fuel issue (lack of it getting there)

    I keep pestering these people why it would try to start and run on the first try but fail every time after that and this guy is the first to give me a good answer - basically the engine computer has some default settings on the first shot but after that it tried to read the few sensors this model has and adjusts from there - and sets things badly, either from bad info, etc.

    He didn't have tools with him (what is with these people coming out to look at cars without tools?) but he suggests I pull a spark plug and see if it is fouled. And suddenly I forget why but it's not because of lack of spark but something else.

    Do you think it's a sensor giving bad info to the computer? Why when I get it to run does it run so poorly then? Sigh. I feel like I am in an endless loop.

    Oh this guy only wanted $150 to change the timing belt (without water pump) so at least he was honest. Even more honest in telling me it's probably not the timing belt.
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    Oh now I remember why he wants me to look at the plugs, he things there is a chance engine is actually getting too much fuel (running rich). And I forget his logic why that is. But my thought is maybe the computer is doing something stupid based on a bad sensor?
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    Good on the timing marks. Good on the distributor as you said earlier. Pull the spark plugs out next and see if they are fouled out. You are starting to move on getting it fixed and running again. If plugs are fouled. replace them. To my knowledge, all 88 323's were fuel injected. I could be wrong on that. Does yours have a carberator? If yours is fuel injected, the answer to your question is the following why it will only fire briefly then die:

    By the battery is that big silver box and black top with a black tube hooking up to it going back to the intake where he squirted carb fluid is what is call a mass air flow sensor. If it is not connected up with that big black pipe, it will sense no air flow when the engine tries to run and will not allow the fuel pump to keep running. Therefore, there will be no more fuel pressure once it is relieve by the injectors firing a couple of times.

    I think from what you have just told me, the spark plugs are becoming quite questionable. Check them out. That is the next cheapest possible solution. Notice I look at what might damage the engine first to eliminate damage possibility then go to the cheapest possible cause for a problem and check them out accordingly to the most expensive.

    That guy with the older car could teach you a few things. That old Corolla may not have a timing belt on it. Don't lose him yet! Yes, he is correct about the sound of the engine about compression. They do have a different sound. Now you know why a good mechanic can tell you sometimes without even popping the hood what might be wrong. Now you know why I almost never pick up a compression tester! Something that use to blow my neighbors mind. Now she brags about me being able to diagnose without opening a hood! Not always though.

    Check those plugs out next. $300 you asked? Dear, I want you to spend that money on a repair manual and some tools. I think you are on your way to keeping this car and you will need those things for this car and the next and so on! Once you have this knowledge, you will not have to pay anyone anymore!
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    I will bike to walmart tomorrow (maybe friday, not feeling so well) and buy the sparkplug tool (and a few sparkplugs, though I don't know how to "gap" so I might buy the fancy kind that don't need to be gapped) I hope the $10-$20 xmas gift toolkits are in stock early as I really need to save money and not spend $5 on just a sparkplug socket (I swear I used to have one many years ago from another xmas gift toolkit but I can't find it for the life of me - bet my ex stole it)

    For what it's worth the back of the sparkplugs are crystal clean by the way, I am fairly certain the person who sold me the car 2-3k miles ago changed them as he was mechanical and that's cheap for someone who knows what they are doing. Of course they could be fouled now.

    I've been reading about the mass airflow sensor since the very day the car failed months ago and I googled possibilities. It's that black square sitting two or three stacks up from the air filter isn't it? There is one for $50 shipped on ebay but obviously we need to know for absolute fact that's it before I spend that much. I wish there was a way to bypass it!

    ps. even if we get this car going I know it won't last more than a year, too many other things wrong but it's good to learn and really right now I don't have any other options financially. At least all the biking everywhere is helping keep my weight in check somwhat!

    pps. the reason I have not bought a book is they aren't cheap and unlike other "tools" it's useless beyond this car... but I guess I can shop online for that too...
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    Oh and the '88 is definitely fuel injected.
    (first car I've owned that actually is!)
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    By the way, does this car actually use both a MAF and a MAP sensor? I vaguely remember seeing the little box that is apparently is the "manifold absolute pressure" sensor also sold on ebay for this car model. According to wikipedia MAP also controls fuel flow. Another $30 so I guess it's something one has to be certain about before replacing.

    Back to spark plugs first I guess.
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    Stay out of the fuel injection system at this point. Even if it is the mass airflow sensor that has failed. This Mazda has only one sensor. Many Toyotas have both. Depending on the problem, I may be able to tell you how to fix it for nothing! A good rebuilt one runs between $250 - $300! Do not order it yet. Surprise!

    You will find fuel injection to be more reliable than a carb. But when it goes down, what a headache to fix!

    Good to read ahead and study. If you have a library card, they most likely have a book you can check out for nothing. I brought one a while back from Amazon for an 87 Chev Spectrum for $10 new as well. Yup, that car is gone and so is the driver, but that book kept it on the road with next to no down time before the 77 year old owner passed. That Chevy Spectrum book may have actually resolved an unknown oil leak on our 86 Toyota that has been a problem since day one from what the original owner tells me! New knowledge or answers come from sources you least expect it.

    Now you know why you have to test the fuel pump next! I am hoping for a spark plug problem at this point though.

    No book equates to more down time. A book of any kind for this model adds to your education on the topic and therefore cuts your down time. In case you are wondering, all of our 20 year olds have regular duty and log just as many miles as any new car out there. True, we try to split the mileage load between them, but they roll. Your problem, if the car was here would have been finished in less than a week! I allow a week for electronic problems, if that is the case here. That is because it is a "take a few readings and think a while."

    Cheap tools are not worth it. They break and damage parts and really cause headaches. I found a nice set at Harbor Freight for $40. I'll look for it later.

    Oh, before hubby got here, his car was maintained on a breakdown schedule. Now it is on a preventive schedule years later. He reminded me that when the plugs get a bit fouled his car did just like what you were telling me. So that much more reason to look there. Also before you put new or the old plugs back in, apply anti seize copper compound to the threads. This will prevent damaging the threads later on.

    Years ago, on my first car. I paid way too much money while in college for a rotor and a compression test. I was so naive back then. $40 was a lot to me in college days. I soon discovered that it would cost me about the same as paying someone else if I bought the tools, books and parts. The tools I only bought once so to speak.... until they walked off! Spark plug gapping is something simple. Covered in that book again! Without you knowing what is in that book, people will screw you over and over for it. Antifreeze at Wal-Mart is a good example. Look at the gallon of 50/50 mix for about $7. The gallon of regular is $8. What does that 50/50 mean. Well, 50% of it is antifreeze and the other 50% is water! I will take the $8 can anytime and make it into two gallons at home! Book covers this as well! Books are not expensive, they are dirt cheap if they tell you what you need to know. Browse them all of the time at the library, book stores etc. Even plan to build my next house from one!

    I'll even tell you of a high price tuition I paid recently over time. Been taking Mazda in for front end alignment every 25-50K for years. Dealer gave me the old factory service manual they no longer need. I buy parts from them, so it pays to give me the book to sell more parts! I know that paper is going to cost me in parts. Cheaper than a car note though. I have front tires wearing on outside. Trying to buy more time before rebuilding the whole front end again. I looked in that factory manual for the camber adjustment out of curiosity. Did I ever want to scream! There are only two settings for camber. Caster can not be changed. That only leaves toe end that can be changed! Something I could do in an apartment parking lot! I paid $70 for each one of those alignments! I might as well have spread my legs and gave it up each time! Well, that made me a little bit more of a Beautiful, Intelligent, Talented, Charming and Hot woman! Not again baby. I learned that lesson well! I guess we all do, when we get knocked down to that floor. Books are cheap tuition I would rather pay upfront. Let someone else take the first few hits: I am tired of being hit. Knowledge is a powerful tool where ever it comes from.

    Anyone else reading this, pay attention. This is one cheap lesson to learn now about repair manuals. Even that factory manual for $100 would have almost paid for it self the first alignment I did not really have to pay for. Sold me on the factory manual after that! That was one hard sell on me for years! Even with Mitchel Manuals down the road at the library. Hold that thought....http://www.alldatadiy.com/ just remembered these people. Some libraries have links to these people aready paid for as well. Check this source out. Still prefer hard copy myself.
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    I was going to ask you which manual I should get, Haynes or Chilton (I found a used Chilton for $11 shipped on ebay?) but then look what I found in google - AutoZone has a fairly complete 1988 323 service manual right online!

    http://tinyurl.com/29hbbn
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    Check Amazon.com. I see some going for much less. From $1.43 and up plus $4.00 shipping! That is the same book I have. That way I can point you to a page if need be. I searched the following under books: Mazda 323 1978-89. Good one rated very good i would think. There are many used book dealers selling old books cheap out there and they have found amazon a good source to move merchandise. One big flea market!

    Autozone covers a good bit and no book has it all. Even the dealer books miss a few things. That Chilton's have have been all over this car with. Motor, tranny out and back in. Tranny twice because second time we changed it to a five speed. Cheaper on gas. Engine lasts longer with a five speed as well.

    Chilton's and Haynes are now owned by the same people, but I have even found different coverage in their two books!
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    Okay I finally got the tools I needed from walmart (bought a $20 120 piece set, I know it's junk but I can't afford anything else right now and in theory it's returnable)

    All the plugs are showing heavy carbon fouling based on the pictures I find on the web. Not really oil fouling but bad carbon. I can knock the plug on it's side and a little will come off like cake.

    Unfortunately, and this really upset me, walmart only had one pair of sparkplugs left for this model! The car part store is far away and I was too tired to go there and overpay. So I will probably have to buy off amazon or something. Changing out just two changed nothing - still no start. I'm not even getting a catch/run though today so I might have to wait for a cool morning tomorrow and see what else I can do.

    Considering how much carbon is baked onto these I am kinda amazed the car ran at all?
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    Great!!!! I think we have the problem solved. Don't buy anything yet. Give me the numbers on that plug and what brand or symbol is marked on it. I will try to choose a better plug for you on this end and get that number back to you! My Chilton's shows a BPR-5ES11 Nippodenso spark plug as the stock one. If you have that plug in your engine, we want to go up one heat range. I suspect you may already have one heat range hotter given your mileage. But get the number back to me to work with to get a good choice to run longer. Also, what kind of driving do you do. City, Interstate. About what percent of each if you do both.

    Back to your original question, yes this will shut you down! Two plugs will not be enough to run. You will need four and chances are you will have to go to an auto parts store or special order them online from an auto parts store like Auto Zone!

    Yes the engine has a lot of wear on it as I suspected for 238K, but you would be amazed how much more time can be bought on it. :D Mazda 323 rules the road again after 18 years!
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    The two replacements I put in were Bosch 4306 - typically $5 each which is insane but because it's walmart they were "only" $8 for a two pack with a $2 rebate - cheaper than anywhere else on the web too. Oh and gapless which was worth the extra few dollars to me over a $1 plug.

    The ones that came out were low end autolites or champions or something. I'll have to go out to the car and look at them. I am sure the last owner just threw in something cheap before they sold it to me because they were mechanical knew enough to replace http://www.sparkplugs.com/results_app.asp?productTypeID=1&AAIA=1189391

    I'm going to freak out if the car has been dead going on 4-5 months now with me still paying insurance and none of the dozen mechanics I have asked at this point even suggested to look at the sparkplugs and that's all it takes to get it running. In fact a few said don't even bother when I even asked if I should try replacing them! :mad:
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    Oh also keep in mind even when it was working I barely drive this car and never take it above 45mph (local roads, no highway) which is probably contributes to the fouling because it doesn't get hot enough? So maybe plugs that get hotter than normal are called for?

    What would happen if I just sandpapered the two least dirty sparkplugs to try to get them back in service?
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    Okay the old plugs in the car were Autolite 64's which were probably $1 at walmart (they might have even gotten the last few there back then).

    They are exact replacements for the BPR-5ES11
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    Well I read up all night about spark plugs and figured out that the 65 ap65 etc are the same fit as the 64 and just one step hotter.

    So today I rode all the way back to walmart and sure enough they have a stack of 65's on the shelf and I could have gotten them yesterday. Unfortunately only one platnium ap65 which would have been cheaper after rebate. Bought a gapping tool which I read how to use last night.

    So I got those came back, gapped, changed them out - and of course, no change.

    I think I officially give up. I've changed so many things now that I don't trust my own work and probably could have broken something else along the way or the replaced part is not working right.

    Even if it was the MAF sensor, that's far too expensive to replace on a guess at this point. Unless you have something easy to try and check I'm going to stop spending and start saving to buy another junker next year. Sigh.
    :(
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    The best plug for that car is not Autolite! Nipodenso's have been the best performing plug for the [non-permissible content removed] engines. Stay away from Bosch if possible. Not sure how they would do in a Mazda, but I have had some headaches with them years ago. Lesson learned was to stay what manufacturer recommends. But, you bought them already. Might as well use them. Sounds like you have been doing some reading, research. Excellent. I do not recall the Autolite numbering system that well. Be very careful as you cross reference numbers. I have seen people get in trouble doing that. If a plug runs too hot, it will disintergrate and cause major damage. Sometimes the piston will even hit the end of the plug or the plug burns a hole in the piston. Just pay careful attention to what you are doing and read stuff at least twice to prevent trouble. Going back to fix a major problem like that is a haedache even for me.

    At this point, go one step hotter and see how that performs. The 65 number sounds correct, but ask to look at the Autolite spark plug book at the supply house if you go there. A lot of clerks will look at you funny because they do not know they have factory spec parts manufater manuals. You may have to ask for a manager to review one. You name it, they have factory books on it. You might even be able to cross it on the web. Check for a website for Autolite. More and more parts companies are seeing that mechanics like me will look at their info if they have it online.

    Now to show you how we think on this end. We think about how well a car has lasted and its repair record before we consider major work like an overhaul. Our 323 is currently be considered for another engine at 300K. That may get nixed though if parts prove to be too hard to get. We do have a excellent parts stock there. On the other hand, it could still happen depending on what the new car market is doing. Wioth car notes running $300 or more, a good overhaul in our own shop costs us about 2-3K depending on what we replace outside the main engine assembly. $2K divided by $300 is a bit more than 6 months worth of notes. Problem is, if it is jobed out to someone, we have no guarantee they wil do it right. Exactly why we do most of our own work. The machine shop we hire has to pass a personal inspection as well as have good references with some of my dealer suppliers. If not, we do not hire.

    The last major overhaul we did from a-z was on the '86 Toyota we spent about 2K on the engine and a total of about 5K for eveything including some interior work. That car was put back into service May of 2006. 15K miles later, a year and a half later, we would have paid almost that much in new car notes. Next spring the 86 Toyota gets a brand new a/c. Yes, they are available on the net from a place in San Antiono TX! Paid $760 for the a/c for the Mazda and spent a total of $1200 for tools and modification to get it the way we wanted it. Tools will work on the Toy's new system as well!

    Let me know how the plugs do, I suspect this may be it.
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    oops did not see this message. Firing order! Do you have the firing order correct? Ideally need a book for this, but I might be able to walk you thru it if need be.

    Order is 1-3-4-2 and this has driven me nuts in the past on this car! Now that I am not under pressure, I see that I was looking at the wrong picture in the past. Been out looking at our engine. On the valve timing belt end: the 1st cylinder there is #1 counting across to the distributor to number four. The top of the distributor cap has number one tower marked. Once you have the number one wire plugged in the number one tower, go around counterclockwise and put each plug wire in the correct order of 1-3-4-2. If you have two of them out of place on a good engine, she does not want to run but will try. On an worn engine like yours, I doubt it will even spit. So pay real careful attention on this part. If you have a Chilton's manual now the info is on page 2-7. The second picture in the left hand column is the correct on for this car.

    Walk away if you get upset. I have done it many a time to think things out. That is how you learn and solve the problems many can not! :)
  • kitkat250kitkat250 Member Posts: 13
  • kitkat250kitkat250 Member Posts: 13
    Hi my wiper works fine but he washer has never worked the tank is full of fluid and it just doesn't do anything when I try to make it work. Bought the book on the car but nothing in it to say how the thing works. Can Anyone out there help. Thanks
    Kathy :)
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    A friend in England who has the same car (year and all) and the Haynes manual sent me this, so I guess it's the same as what you are saying:

    http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7896/323firingorderhb2.png

    Autozone's diagram is somewhat clearer:
    http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/17/ca/ee/0900823d8017caee/repai- rInfoPages.htm

    I will double check tomorrow morning when there is light but I was fairly careful about only one wire at a time.

    Getting really tired of getting my hands so dirty, sigh.
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    I've now checked the order this morning.

    The cap seemed "upside down" based on the firing order. It was in order but as if the cap was the other way than in the diagrams. I did not do this because I never had all the wires off at once and it's very awkward to put the cap back on upside down with the wires on.

    So I tried flipping it. No change.

    I'm not even getting a "catch" anymore.
    Something definitely has become worse.

    I think I give up. If I find a mechanic who's willing to go over everything for less than $75 at a shop I'll get it towed there before the AAA trial membership expires in December. Otherwise I guess it's going on craigslist as is to try to get the last $200 out of it.
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    You got a catch earlier....you are correct, the current wiring is not correct, worse. A catch is a good sign that you were closer. Distributor cap is designed to fit one way only. There is a little curved section that lets it fit all the way down. Installed the other way and the center of the rotor does not make contact with the cap. This has been historically a headache for me as well. Distributor is not the easiest to look at.

    The wring diagram is no help. You need a picture. I could not get a picture for some reason from Autozones site with a copy and paste. Kept coming up with not found. But am surprised that Autozone has improved that help site, but it is still no replacement for a book. Look at the cap. The number one tower has a number 1 on it. That number one tower should be almost up towards the front of the engine. Once you have that, the number 4 goes to the opposite side of the cap. Number one wire goes to the spark plug closest to the timing belt cover. Number 4 is close is near the distributor. Now imagine the rotor going around opposite the direction a clock travels. From number 1 the next tower is the number 3 wire. Going around the next one should be 4 then 2. I hope you have not turned the bolts to the base of the distributor. If you have, you changed the timing. If not, try starting it. If it catches again. try switching two of the wires that are opposite of each other. If it catches then try switching the other two opposites.

    If you have a catching deal, then you only have two cylinders left to get right. So switch the other two for it to run. I can not stress patience in this. Funny, new cars no longer have distributors. Kind of nice until the computer breaks.

    Final call....pay someone, sale it or get the book somehow. Personally I would do the last one.
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    The autozone site is actually a diagram too, sorry if I mislead. I've added it to the picture here in the bottom corner:

    http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7098/323firingordernj6.png

    The problem is both diagrams are wrong in real-life - the plugs are not like the corners of a square but like a cross or plus sign, where I believe #4 is on top - #1 is on the bottom.

    I knew that #1 on the engine block was all the way on the left next to the timing belt. But think the cap was "upside down" in the sense I think #4 was on the bottom. I've already forgotten.

    Are you saying #1 should be at the top of the cross? Because that means it was right in the first place.

    The firing order however, was right in either way. All rotating the cap does is change what is in theory "first".

    The cap went on either either direction with no hesitation or prevention from doing that. It's the real deal too, stamped "made in japan" so it's either the original or a direct replacement. Fairly clean too, probably a replacement at some point over the years.

    Did I mention the Bosch plugs I pulled out had some oil? Either that or gas. From what I have read, a little oil there is common on old engine.

    I still don't know if the catch days ago was real or imagination. Today was very cool outside which the car seems to like better but nothing. Battery was fully charged.

    The car has not actually run continuously even in those very rare moments since I changed out the fuel pump. I may need to pull and check that again. It was a pain in the a** the first time which is why I resisted doing it again but I may have no choice. This is why I was looking for someone locally to double check my work but apparently no-one wants to for what I can afford.

    Unfortunately the old pump broke something off the top when it was taken out or I'd put it back in just to test. It was very old and worn (and somewhat corroded).

    What the heck I may just go out to the car now and pull it now so I can look at it tonight - it's cool enough for a change.
  • sschmidsschmid Member Posts: 28
    One thing I seem to remember about these cars is it is very easy to put the rotor on 180 degrees off. My mechanic even did it and spent a lot of time figuring out why the car would not start after replacing the cap and rotor. You may want to check you have rotor in right.
    Also I noticed everyone mentioning this car has an interference engine (meaning severe damage in case of timing belt failure) but everywhere I have checked (including Gates who makes a great precentage of replacement belts) says these cars are non-interference engines. Does anyone know this fact to be incorrect. My son's car has about 70k on this belt but he does not have funds to replace it right now as long as it is working. We figure if it goes he'll have it replaced.
  • needwheels2needwheels2 Member Posts: 31
    You're right about the 180 problem - I just experienced it.

    When I went outside now with more light I saw that the cap was now not seated 100% on the distributor (after I incorrectly inverted it this morning).

    Apparently the correct way is for the #1 sign to be upside down on the very top, and the #4 contact is below it.

    However even after I corrected it all, this changed nothing, the car still does not run and still no catch. Sigh.
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    I guarantee it is an interference engine. So is it's later year sisters! Our first engine, 89 323, had the crankshaft break right behind the front pulley at 138K. The valves hit the pistons when he tried a re start. Hubby had a heavy foot back then. Turns out NHTSA has had many complaints about this crankshaft breakage problem with a number of new Mazda back in 88 and 89. That is why we bought a crate engine rather rebuild the old one.

    Get a manual and learn how to replace the belt. The manual even says it is an interference engine. I learned not to trust Gates on that one. They have been wrong too many times on that point. Good you brought it up. Less than $100 will do it right in parts. Interesting point is that the new engine has a thicker crankshaft!

    Remember belt and seals go together in the repair every 60K. Every 120K or so, change out the tensioner and water pump as well. Why you ask. Because they will fail shortly and you just have to go back and do it all over again. Oh, if that tensioner fails, there goes your motor as well! These little engines can fail like a stack of dominoes going down, so do it right the first time. Belt breaks, valves dance on piston heads. Chilton's Mazda 323 1978-89 cheap on Amazon.com. Like a few dollars and $4 shipping.

    Very correct about the distributor. This is one car distributor system that taught me to walk away before I did something I would regret! Look in some of my earlier posts to find out how I can now pull the whole distributor out, re-install after repair without even using a timing light or guess work! Funny how hind sight is 20-20!
  • girlcarbuildergirlcarbuilder Member Posts: 225
    Yes, number one, which is stamped on the cap usually with a 1 in a circle goes towards the top. It is not an exact top, but close enough to it.

    After you get the wires back in place as I mentioned before. Try a restart. If still no go then we need to go back to the fuel pump and recheck your work there starting with a fuel pressure check as I mentioned earlier. Sometimes when those pumps fail, they blow the relay as well.

    There is one way to check to see if all engine timing is correct. If it runs that way, then we can say for sure it is fuel system. You will need two people for that test. Find another person and I will tell you how to do it. Better than that. Tell you now.

    Alternative fuel test. Purpose is to determine if engine valve and ignition timing is correct and fuel/injection system fault is the problem. or to resolve a timing problem before resolving a fuel problem. Now you going pro! Be careful.

    First you must have two people. This is a must! Under hood person controls fuel from starter fluid can, aka ether, and throttle control. In car person cranks only as directed by under hood person. Under hood person controls shutdown by stopping ether flow.

    First remove big black plastic hose to throttle body that travels over the valve cover. You will have to disconnect two smaller rubber hoses from it as well. Second, locate the throttle cable. Easiest done by having in car person push it up and down a few times and you look for what is moving. Locate the throttle plate inside the metal cylinder portion of the pipe or manifold assembly. It opens and closes as you move the throttle cable. Open it all the way and spray in a 1-2 second burst of ether. Have other person crank engine. If it is a fuel problem, she will fire right up. A timing problem will not let it fire up. To keep it running if it catches, you push the throttle open a little bit and squirt a bit more ether in it. Too much will flood the engine. Use the nozzle hose pipe that comes the spray can. Be careful. this stuff is nasty to be around.
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