VW Passat Wagon vs Subaru Wagons

ateixeira

You either got a bad gasket, or your mechanic didn't torque it down properly. Most likely the latter.

I dunno, VW had half a million bad ignition coils out there, while Subaru has maybe a handful of bad gaskets. Doesn't add up if you ask me.

-juice

lark6

itsooze: What previous VW models did you own? How many miles did you get out of them? What, if any, mechanical problems did you encounter with them?

Ed

leif

Handful? That one mechanic had nine. I'll take bad coils over blown head gaskets{much cheaper and easier to repair} anyday, although i prefer neither.

ateixeira

OK, so half a million to ten, including hers. The number affected is insignificant in comparison.

Point is, no car is perfect. It's a bit absurd to expect that, and then change to a historically far less reliable brand expecting perfection.

Buy a Lexus or an Acura to improve your odds, or just get an extended warranty. Those strategies make more sense to me.

-juice

PS One bad coil can strand you. With a leaky head gasket odds are you'll make it home.

itsooze

Unfortunately, it wasn't just a leaky headgasket. I'm not a mechanic but I was told that the head gasket was fried because of compression build up. The first indication of a problem was no heat in the car. Within 1 minute, the car was overheated with coolant bubbling over. And this happened twice. The car had to be towed. Nine fixes like this in a small rural town (that favors GMs and Fords) is noteworthy, I think.

Anyway, I learned how to drive a manual transmission on a '68 Beetle, moved up to a '74 Super Bug and then got my own 1980 Rabbit Diesel, followed by an '84 Rabbit Diesel. We didn't know how many miles the '68 Beetle accummulated because the speedometer had a habit of not working! It was bought new and lasted until 1987. I racked up 175,000 on the '84 Rabbit before trading it in in 1991. The only problems that I had with those Rabbits were in the struts -- I seemed like I had to replace them all the time (oh, and the a/c didn't work too well, either).

ateixeira

I doubt there are even 9 Subies in that small rural town, unless it's in Vermont.

Sounds like the mechanic was exaggerating.

Any how, 99k miles are a lot, by that time it's a crap shoot with any car.

What about an extended warranty next time around? That's really the only guarantee you could get. The 4Motion costs a few grand more, so you could easily afford an extended warranty and still come out ahead.

We got a 7/100 Subaru Gold warranty because my wife's last car, a 626, was rated reliable and still cost us $2500 in 5 break downs before it hit 80k miles. Now *that* is unreliable.

Any how, if you feel up to it, call 800-SUBARU3 and tell them what happened. They might be able to cut you a break on the parts costs, or maybe sell a warranty retroactively.

I know that's a stretch, but it's worth asking. Good luck.

-juice

cmann

Interesting ... just replaced the head gasket (and the associated bent valves from heat)on my '97 Outback with just under 93000 mi. Sounds like I may not be the only one. Just in the process of selling it now, having just picked up my '03 Passat Wagon 4Mo GLX. Put 800km (500mi)on it this weekend in snow, ice, rain, freezing rain and all combinations of the above. If anything, I found the 4Mo to be more sure-footed and certainly *way* more comfortable. The main reason I made the change to VW was for the safety features, specifically the side-curtain head bags. So far, no regrets.

shad12

ateixeira: as you might remember, I posted about my head gasket problem a while back. There does seem like a number of head gasket complaints on the various subaru discussions. Perhaps you are correct that these problems are statistically insignificant. At one time you stated you would check with one of the subaru people about this problem. I haven't seen the answer posted anywhere. You are correct, 90k miles + are a lot of miles. But a number of people have posted with low miles and head gasket problems. I do like my subaru & only have had a few problems but you seem to blow off and put down the people complaining of head gasket problems. My head gasket repair was $2500. My 90k timing belt service was $1100. A lot of money for me. In just a few months. Perhaps I was unwise in not purchasing a new one before 90k miles. I have seen you post on other boards of different auto makes. Do you work for Subaru? Since I am somewhat skeptical of corporate america, I doubt SOA would share the head gasket problems that they must surely have knowledge of through their dealer network. As you must remember, I had stated when I picked up my outback after the repair that the service dept said they had 3 more sitting there waiting for head gaskets. Still could be statistically insignificant though.

ateixeira

Congrats, Colin.

Keep in mind it's not really fair to compare a previous generation '97 with 90k miles to a brand-spankin' new '03 that costs probably $10 grand more than you paid originally.

In other words, I bet you'd feel the same way about a new Outback VDC. Or, from the opposite point of view, let's see how you like your Passat after 90k miles of abuse.

shad12: I haven't forgotten, it's just that our regular Subaru rep is on disability leave. She actually had neck surgery that was pretty serious. She cannot "work" because it's against her insurance company's disability leave policy.

Go ahead and call 800-SUBARU3 to register your call. If they see a pattern, that's when they issue TSBs to dealers. That's basically what happened with VW's ignition coils, except I'm sure the problem was far more widespread because it got a lot of bad press (mentioned 3 times in Autoweek alone). Also some of the VeeDubs were brand-new, not with 90 or 100k miles.

-juice

cmann

Fair enough, Juice. I agree about the 90k difference in mileage. Interestingly enough, I did do a 48 hour test drive of an '03 VDC and while I liked it fairly well, my main complaint was that I could NOT get comfortable in the seat. I found the height of the seat, even in its lowest position, to be high enough that I felt like I was always looking under the top edge of the windshield. The Passat is much better in that respect.

ateixeira

It's all these folks asking for a higher vantage point for the driver, they have been creeping up. Since the Outback is pitched as an SUV alternative, they have to, I guess.

I wonder if the seat in the Legacy GT would be a better fit for you?

Subaru just put the H6 in a cloth "base" model Outback. Interestingly, it's $3200 less than the LL Bean, so the H6 is now at available at a much lower price point.

The Forester is getting a turbo, as will the Baja, and some of us expect the 2004 Legacy GT to get a turbo too, with plenty of HP. They're talking about the next generation Legacy STi getting a whopping 350hp, yowsah! S4 hunting, anyone?

-juice

PS Edit: just had another thought, doesn't a sub woofer option fit under the driver seat? If so that would require it be mounted higher.

shad12

I told SOA my terrible tale on their web site last month when it happened, as you probably remember, I posted their reply to me.

shad12

When I purchased my '98 outback new, I soon learned the seat was killing my back, even though I never had back problems before this. I tried various positions and lumbar supports. After putting up with it for 5 months, I purchased a Recaro seat with adjustable thigh support. It has been a fabulous driving experience.

ncvol

How did you arrange to get a 48 hour test drive? Is this something that all Subaru dealers are willing to do?

ateixeira

Kewl, how much for that seat? Did they bolt right on to the seat rails?

You'd probably have to be might friendly with a dealer for a 48 hour loaner. Either making a big purchase or a repeat customer on an expensive model.

Be happy to get a service loaner.

-juice

shad12

The recaro dealer had several floor models in the show room that were old models no longer being manufactured. They didn't have two of a kind. I purchased 1 seat that felt good for me. It was $850 which was about half of original cost. They had to order a seat bracket from recaro that was manufactured to fit the legacy and meet DOT standards. I also had them install an inflatable bladder in the seatback. I believe the cost was about $1300 total cost installed back in June of '98.

ateixeira

That's pretty good. Aftermarket leather costs $900 and I'm sure the end results won't match a true Recaro.

-juice

altair4

with just one odd seat in the car...but if it feels good, why not? How long did it take to get the seat bracket?

shad12

not for me. Recaro seat is gray cloth so color wasn't much of a mis-match. the shape of the seat is a lot different. but since I am always spilling coffee etc. and I have dogs,I put gray slip on seat covers and I pull them off when taking the relatives for a ride and the fabric doesn't show any wear. I wasn't about to buy 2 seats when my wife was perfectly happy with original equipment. I believe it took two weeks for the bracket to arrive. That Recaro is well worth it to me. It takes a little more effort and energy to climb out of it though. Not as easy as jumping out of a pick up truck or my wife's '97 legacy L.

cmann

Probably not all Subie dealers. My situation is in a small town, with a dealer that I have know for 10 years and they gave me the 2003 VDC to try for a couple of days while my head gasket problem was being addressed.

ateixeira

It's good to have a relationship like that with your dealer.

-juice

otis123

Subaru whipped VW in reliability in the Consumer Reports annual auto edition (but to be fair, the Mexican Jetta and Golf pull the average down). :-)

Ralph

ateixeira

True, but VWs do extremely well in the overall ratings, and that shouldn't be ignored.

Forester was tied for 1st most reliable small SUV, Legacy/Outback was 3rd most reliable mid-sizer, but very close to the best.

As a manufacturer Subaru was also near the top.

-juice

blackbean

I sold my 2002 Passat to buy my 2002 LL Bean. I had the Passat for 12 months and was at the dealer 11 times for 3 electircal and one mechanical problem! I loved the comfort of the car, many nice luxury features, fantastic seats, stereo etc. but the car was NOT reliable, maybe I had a lemon, but 4 months after I sold it, VW finally admitted that all coil packs were defective (something I knew, but they hadn't failed yet on the car - although I had intermittent starting/rough idle problems from the beginning). All in all, I am happier with my Outback. Some of the problems I had were faulty power window arm rest control, faulty HomeLink visor (shorted out horn, lights and other dash electronics, bad ECT sensor, bad repair of ECT (lost all coolant and engine overheated), turbo intercooler hose that came off repeatedly, leading to lack of boost and who knows what else. I n addition, the vehicle had a potentially dangerous turbo/AT lag that was tough to modulate when pulling out in heavy traffic. Anyway, the car had a lot to like, but the reliability was not there.

K9Leader

I just bought a 2000 Outback Limited with 32,000 miles. The guy I bought it from had replaced it with a 2003 Passat. The OB was a lease that ended in September. He bought the car. Then his wife decided she really thought they should have a silver car (the OB is white). So, he bought the Passat because the OB doesn't come in all silver. He says he would have bought another OB if it had come in silver (would have been his third OB).
He took a loss on the deal, having paid $19,600 for the OB in September and selling it to me for $18,600. A trivial amount, though, to please the better half.
--K9Leader

rsholland

The '03 base Outback now comes in silver. The gold cladding remains however. Even so, because the silver and gold are so close in color, it almost looks monochromatic at a quick glance.

Bob

ateixeira

Bummer that the ignition coil fix came too late for you.

-juice

blackbean

Juice
I actually prefer the OB now that I have it - my wife says the Passat was too "yuppie car of the moment" for us anyway (we like to hike, backpack, snowshoe & XC ski - plus she is an environmental engineer). The only thing I really miss from the Passat is the front seat and leg room - so comfy for a big guy like me. Anyway, I have had more fun in OB this winter than in any other car!
Matt

ateixeira

That's funny. Another friend said the interior was "too nice" for the way he intended to use it.

I guess Piech decided that VW would chase luxury while Audi chased the sport segment. It'll be interesting to see how it works out.

But given the Passat is designed to be sold at $40 grand (W8), a base 1.8T 5 speed for about half that seems like a bargain IMO.

-juice

eric102

If you need more leg room there is an easy mod you can do to the seat rails to get about 2 more inches of leg room. I'm 6'3" and find my 02 Outback very comfortable after the mod.

Eric

K9Leader

The non-silver OB was his story and he stuck to it. Maybe it was just a convenient explanation, maybe he didn't know about the silver option (or didn't go looking and just assumed it wasn't available), or maybe he was only interested in the Limited. As you can probably tell, $$$ appeared not to be a concern.
--K9Leader

ateixeira

You da man, Eric. That was brilliant.

I find my wife's Legacy has enough legroom for my 30" inseam. In fact I don't even have the seat all the way back.

-juice

sprwhawk152

Eric,
You mentioned you got a seat rail modification that gives your outback's seat(s) 2 more inches of travel. Who makes it? How do I get one? How much does it cost? We had (sadly) written off the Legacy line because the seats won't go back quite far enough.

Scott

eric102

Its a do it yourself mod. that only works on the electric drivers seat. The passenger seat looks more difficult, I haven't tried it yet.

The drivers side is fairly easy. It just requires pulling the seat out of the car, removing 4 bolts that hold the seat rails together, drill a couple new holes in the rails about 2" further back, and then reassemble to the new position. No $ spent, just a 1/2 day of your time.

I gave a more detailed description about a year ago, probably in the Outback or modifications thread. If you can't find it with the search function and need more details, let me know.

Eric

ateixeira

I think it was in the Legacy & Outback thread under wagons. If not, try Subaru Crew - Modifications under Owners Clubs.

-juice

ncvol

I actually prefer the OB now that I have it - my wife says the Passat was too "yuppie car of the moment" for us anyway (we like to hike, backpack, snowshoe & XC ski - plus she is an environmental engineer). The only thing I really miss from the Passat is the front seat and leg room - so comfy for a big guy like me. Anyway, I have had more fun in OB this winter than in any other car!

I find myself having that same internal debate. I've admitted to myself that I don't ever do any real offroading, and don't need a true SUV, but there's part of me that just kinda hates to admit that I am a yuppie (a lawyer with two kids who lives in a zip code that was featured in National Geographic as the embodiment of American Suburbia). I like to get to the mountains whenever I can, but that's really not more than a couple times a year. My heart yearns to be an Outback person, but my head tells me I fit the Passat description a lot more closely. What's a yuppie in denial to do?

westrid_dad

Here in Boise, the Subaru Outbacks are almost more "yuppie" than the VW Passats. The Outbacks are everywhere it seems while I see very few Passat wagons on the road here in comparison. By far, my wife has the stronger "yuppie gauge" than I and she didn't feel the Passat fell in that category at all. Now, the Volvo... don't get her started ;~)

Ultimately, we test drove both the Outback VDC and Passat 4Mo wagons for an extended period. We chose the vehicle that we felt most comfortable in, and went with the dealer that provided the best sales experience. The VW won easily in both categories. We also like to get out of town for camping, hiking, and skiing adventures. So far this winter, the Passat has easily taken us everywhere our '89 Subaru 4WD wagon used to, up and over snow-covered passes to our favorite ski destinations.

Granted, if we hadn't liked the feel of the Passat as much, the VW dealer hadn't been so pleasant, and/or the Subaru dealer hadn't been such a..., well unpleasant, we could just as easily have chosen a new Subie.

ncvol

That's probably how it's going to shake down for me as well when I finally get ready to pull the trigger. I've researched both of those to death, and it will ultimately come down to which I like better when I ride in one. Out of curiosity, however, which stereo did you think sounded better - The McIntosh or the Monsoon?

westrid_dad

I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the stereos while we were test riding these two cars. I kept them off for the most part so I could listen to the other sounds within the car over bumps and on the highway. However, if I do recall correctly, the McIntosh radio tuner may have sounded better.

Now, after almost three months of ownership of the Passat I would comment that the Monsoon radio tuner provides rather "boomy" sound while the in-dash CD player provides much better sound. When listening to the radio I just make sure I turn down the bass and increase the treble.

Good luck with your decision.

ateixeira

What's a yuppie in denial to do?

Get the H6 Outback with cloth. It's a new model. On the surface it's decidedly unpretentious, but underneath you sort of get it all.

I cracked up when Lucien said he thought the Passat interior was "too nice" for hauling his mountain bikes around.

-juice

frapzoid

Where did everybody go?

Gary

allhorizon

They are driving in their Passats and Subarus and are having fun.

- D.

ncvol

I'm still debating over these two, but will probably wait to see the new iteration of Outbacks next model year. I should probably go test drive both of them right now, but hate to do it when I'm not going to be buying anytime soon, I feel like I'm being disingenuous to the salesman (not that he wouldn't do the same thing to me).

dcm61

"but will probably wait to see the new iteration of Outbacks next model year."

'04 Outbacks are expected to be the same as '03; maybe minor cosmetic changes. I saw an '04 LL Bean at the NY autoshow and the only differences that I saw was silver badging (Outback & AWD) instead of gold and Baja wheels versus the H6 gold wheels. However, there could have been a revised H6 under the hood. :-)

DaveM

ateixeira

You can pre-view the next Legacy, it's been talked about a lot in the Subaru Crew - Future Models topic.

Looks good, too.

-juice

ncvol

Sorry, I wasn't clear about what I meant. I meant the model year that comes out next year (2005). I know the MY 2004's (which should be out fairly soon) won't have any major changes.

timmerc517

According to Edmund's reviews of each audio system, the McIntosh system in the Subaru got a 6.0 (http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/70543/page004- .html) while the Passat's Monsoon sound system got an 8.0 (http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/68202/page006- .html)... I own a 1997 Outback and the stereo system is terrible, if that matters... no experience with the McIntosh stereo but I hope it's better than the 80-watt Panasonic. I've experienced the Monsoon sound system and it rivals some of the best out there in this price range. Edmund's also put the Monsoon Sound System in the Top 10 for under $30,000 (http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/55745/article.html); I quote:

"Believe it or not, the Monsoon stereo in the VW Passat is manufactured by Delphi, a division of Delco Electronics. Even more amazing: It sounds really good. Volkswagen takes a somewhat different approach to audio in all its vehicles, which is evident throughout the product line, from the Passat on down to the Golf. Rather than mounting large 6-by-9s on the back deck, the VW folks opt for 6.5-inch drivers in all four doors. The doors act as speaker enclosures, accentuating bass response and smoothing out the rough edges. Top this off with an elegant pair of front-mounted tweeters, and you have a recipe for good sound."
Hope this answers your question.

ncvol

thanks

frapzoid

I will never buy another VW!!!! Unfortunately I found out that my Passat isn't deer-proof!!! A month and a half ago I ran into a deer or vice versa. I knew I should have bought a Subaru! I know they make a deer-proof car, don't they? Just kidding fellas. I did have some issues with a deer but I'm still glad I bought the Passat. The insurance company had to cover $4300.00 of damage.

Gary

ateixeira

Whoa, everyone was OK? That's some serious damage. Did any air bags deploy?

I had a deer run into the side of a K-car I rented a long time ago, it was bizarre. It stunned him, we stopped, then he got up and ran off!

Would an Outback be more deer proof? LOL. Well, it is a little taller, so you might have a small advantage there.

-juice