Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
What is the kWh of electric consumption required to re-charge a fully deleted Volt battery pack? There's a lot of hoopla about the gas mileage and not much talk about the electric bill. At least not that I've seen.
Thanks in advance.
That assumes GM is telling the truth, and they were misleading before, so I'm skeptical to say the least.
If they are telling the truth this time, unlike before, then perhaps it's because batteries get hot when you extract a lot of power over a short amount of time. Acceleration at high speeds requires the most power to counter the added wind resistance. That's probably the reason.
why isn't the engine mechanically moving the vehicle too?
GM was hiding behind their patents, who knows what the truth is?
The media is a bit miffed, so I bet several Volt test drives will have a private-investigator approach to see when the engine really turns on, and in what situations it provides propulsion assist.
That's 7500 very good reasons to lie.
We should look at cost per mile, versus miles per gallon.
A horse gets more than ONE BILLION miles per gallon, but that's meaningless too since it will never drink that gasoline.
You'll incur costs in horse feed, water, stall rental, training, horseshoes, etc.
So we should look at cost-per-mile. Electrics do well, so no reason not to. CNG cars also do well in that sort of comparison, but you should add the cost of the "Phill" station in that math as well.
One of the most critical facts we obtained from GM is that the 40 mile all-electric driving range will occur within 50% of the batteries maximum charge, or 8 kWh out of 16 kWh total. This translates to 200Wh/mile of energy consumption.
http://gm-volt.com/2007/08/29/latest-chevy-volt-battery-pack-and-generator-detai- ls-and-clarifications/
For me a straight EV would be fine for my errand running if the vehicle used less than the Volt to get around. It would have to be at least 80 miles on a 8 KWH charge to be at all practical.
I would think a smart shopper would opt for the Ford Fusion hybrid for about $15k less. It has a lot more room for passengers. Even the Prius would be a better choice.
Calling the Volt a 4 passenger is a real push. Check out the back seat leg room. Not many people will be able to sit back there with any kind of comfort.
I don't like subjecting my passengers to anything I would not like. And I can tell you most of the cars today are cramped in the back seats. The Volt is strictly for the buyer that wants to look green. Not sure it will stand out like the Prius.
Huh? No Malibu gets 47.7mpg hwy or 30mpg city unless it's going down the side of a mountain. Where did you get this mis-information?
There is no free lunch. If large numbers of people start plugging in to charge up, electric rates WILL go up. Nobody ever seems to want to recognize this. And no, it won't matter when you plug in. The demand on the grid from electric cars is something that is not there now. More demand, same supply, price goes up.
They'd have to sell millions of these to have any significant effect on overall electric consumption. I use to track CO2 emissions at a small manufacturing plant where I worked. Our rate was $0.04/kWh and our average monthly bill was $300,000. This small (250,000 sqft) plant burned 250,000kWh/day average!
For comparison purposes: Re-charging a fully depleted Volt battery burns roughly the same amount of electricity as a small family uses operating a 50 gallon electric hot water heater every day.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/electricity/epm/table5_6_a.html
You'll be green with envy if you open this link and see my rates:
MPW.org
I pay half what many parts of the country pay as you noted. And yes, some would be spending more money on their electric bill than they would if operating gasoline only in a highly-efficient automobile that can get 35mpg.
7.79 cents per kWh May thru June and September/October
7.88 cents per kWh July/August
7.29 cents per kWh November thru April.
========
7.65 cents per kWh average for the year.
With my Solar Panels and the usage patterns I currently have, I will never pay any "On-Peak" charges, so these are the rates I pay.
OK, I know this likely puts me in a VERY SMALL GROUP of people paying that small amount, but still - there might be a few thousand more like my situation across the country.
Isn't it going to be sold only in major urban area, like LA, DC, and NYC?
Rates in those areas may be a lot higher.
By my math, I live in the DC area, one of the Volt markets, and commute 26 miles each working day, about 22 times per month (working days). I use about a gallon of gas each day, so it costs me a little under $3 a day. At current prices let's call it $60 per month.
For me I may never need to buy gas - so potentially I'd save roughly half on the cost of "fuel", if you want to call it that.
But...when I look at a $350/month lease, vs. a $199/month lease for a Cruze or similar compact car (maybe even less), it doesn't really add up. Even if I got free solar and paid zero for electricity, I'd have to make up the $151/month discrepancy in the lease cost, or about $6.86 for each of those 22 working days. Even if gas prices doubled it wouldn't add up.
The $7500 credit may offset that, though. Let's say it's a 3 year lease, apply $2500 credit per year, or $208.33 per month. That would be enough to make the Volt cheaper to own than a Cruze for 3 years.
Interesting...
Question is - can you get the $7500 credit on a lease?
Also, what are the terms on that $350/month lease?
You save on fuel costs, but spend more to acquire one in the first place.
The idea of never (or rarely) having to go to the gas station is appealing to me. My Miata's low fuel light goes on after just 280 city miles or so, since the gas tank is small.
Then again it costs half what a Volt does, pre-rebate at least.
30 miles for $1.50 is closer to reality for the average consumer. And don't even get me started on the "Zero Emissions" claims. There is no free lunch. Coal-fired power plants are among the worst polluters on earth. The "Zero Emissions" claims go up in smoke as soon as you plug in an electric vehicle.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you've never seen Living with Ed, it's a great show. He makes toast by riding on his bicycle. It's a funny show, most the of humor coming from his relationship with his wife. They drive each other crazy.
But you're not counting the value of the smug grins that Volt drivers get to enjoy! Surely thinking "I'm so virtuous" is worth $151/month!
/end sarcasm
First, in the beginning, almost ALL the charging will be done at night, when the demands on the grid are at their lowest.
And in addition, the number of EVs on the road will ramp up slowly.
Most people who will buy them as early adopters will be people who are confident they can do their commute mostly or entirely on electric power. This will leave them as "night chargers" only.
So because of those reasons, I'm almost certain that "Grid Impact" will be small at first.
Later, say five years from now, things might change.
By then, ASSUMING THAT EVs take off in popularity similar to what happened to Hybrids in the first 5 years, there will be more of a Grid Impact.
There will be charging stations at random locations, Interstates, and at workplaces. This will be the era when more people WILL start charging during the daytime. This WILL affect the Grid.
Hoping that by then, utilities will have ramped up their non-coal alternative sources and will have enough capacity to handle it.
Only Time Will Tell.
I think it would make sense to have timers for them, though. It's not like you get home at 6pm and wait until midnight to plug it in, most would forget.
There should (probably will) be a way to program it to charge at a specific time, say, midnight to 6am.
And yes, I bet the cars will allow for "timer charging" at some point. Good thought.
The way I read the IRS take on the subject, the person leasing does not get the credit unless GM takes it off the price and claims it for them selves. Which is kind of the way I read their $350 lease offer.
In addition to certification, the following requirements must be met to qualify for the credit:
● You are the owner of the vehicle. If the vehicle is leased,
only the lessor and not the lessee, is entitled to the credit;
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8834.pdf
OK, so no such thing as a free lunch, as expected.
Back to my math, I'd have to save about $7 a day on gas, which is not possible given the 40 mile range.
So it'll cost more than the bigger Cruze that it's (loosely) based on pretty much no matter what.
If you do not buy the Volt, you still get a lower lease payment because GM is getting the $7500. Your payment would be far higher than $350 is they were passing the rebate on to you.
So it's a win-win for GM and the Volt driver (whether or not you buy or lease) and a lose-lose for the taxpayers who are funding the $7500 rebate.
If you buy, I think the residuals on these will be a HUUUUUGE gamble, as we really have no idea at all what they'll be worth 5 years from now.
If it flops, values will plunge.
If they're a hit, manufacturers will make huge improvements on batteries and other technologies, and people will want to buy the new and improved ones.
How many people do you know who are looking for Gen I Priuses used? Nobody? That's what I thought.
That's why the lease makes sense, to mitigate risks.
At what level can the utility companies "blame" any increase in usage on EV charging?
5,000 EVs sold?
10,000 EVs sold?
5 % increase in electric usage?
10 % increase in electric usage?
15 % increase in electric usage?
And how would they even be able to quantify that?
How is increased usage not just a function of more people owning more electronic devices, which are becoming ubiquitous these days - iPads, iPhones, laptops. Just about every level of economic classifications in the USA now have multiple electronic devices in the family.
How much increased usage can be attributed to population growth?
How much is increased cooling/heating loads?
I just think there are far too many "unknowns" at this juncture for the utility companies to say ANYTHING about increased usage.
I think the ONLY WAY they could attribute any increases in load to EV charging is in the cities where the Volt and Leaf are sold first, and ONLY by measuring nighttime usage in those areas.
But then again - If they see a 3% increase in nighttime usage, how can they attribute that directly to EV charging anyway?
I don't think the Volt will add much burden to the grid because everyone's going to charge them at night. Especially since it has the gas engine to extend range.
The Leaf and other pure electrics may use charging stations during the day, and indeed that could be a valid concern if the grid is already at capacity.
The Volt plugged into 110 volts will draw over one KW per hour. A few hundred of them could have an impact on the current grid. Most people are not going to worry about plugging it in after that peak as we have NO night rates for electric usage.
I don't see those as being huge current draws. That's about 8 amperes.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
We're about to go through deregulation of electric rates here in PA because forcing "competition" didn't work. A few years back, they gave everyone a choice of electric companies to use. You would have had to be an idiot to not choose the company with the lowest rates. Well, SURPRISE, as I said at the time, there was no way that company would have the capacity to supply everyone who might choose to get their power from them. So what's the company to do? They have to buy the more expensive power from the other companies to meet the demand. Do you think they're going to sell that power to customers at a loss?
Now the government is telling me forced competition didn't work. I'm SHOCKED I tell ya.
So pardon me for getting edgy when people start talking about how adding demand to the grid isn't really going to affect anything. Electric power is a commodity just like unleaded gas. And gas does a pretty good job of fluctuating around times of increased demand like holiday weekends and summer driving season, right?