Well, that just means that there is more than $1700 profit between what the dealer's cost is and the price posted. My example makes the assumption that the dealer's invoice amount is $20,000. If the posted price is $21,000 and the dealers invoice amount is $20,000 then it's unlikely the dealer will "show" the customer $1800 for the trade. To do so would mean a loss of $700 on the new car deal.
This is how the classic "Push, Pull or Drag Sale" or "$2000 Guaranteed Trade Allowance" sales work. The price on the window is high enough to allow a $100 trade be "worth" $2000 on paper.
landru2 - thanks for the clarification. I don't understand why people fall for those 'sales'. I've always negotiated the price of the car first and then the trade-in last. I've always received a quote from Carmax beforehand so the dealer must at least match it. For our last car (Envoy XL SLT) after we agreed on a price for the Envoy I pulled out the Carmax quote for the trade-in. The dealer told us to take our car to Carmax - they wouldn't match (the dealer's offer was $1000 less). We were quite suprised by that. I would think they could have made money off of our trade-in, even paying us the $1000 more. It was one year ago and they said the used car market was very slow.
Carmax has given me blue book 'good' trade-in both times I have used them. For the Accord I am buying the dealer was originally $1000 lower than Carmax, but with the quote I brought them to match they 'decided' to give me what Carmax offered minus the tax benefit. I was basically told I 'had' to trade in my car to get the Accord for the price I want (around $350 over Edmund's invoice). In the end it works out the same to me. They get to sell my trade-in and make money off of it, and in the end I get the same for my trade-in as selling it to Carmax. Since I am happy with blue book trade-in 'good' value it works for both of us.
Landru2, thanks for the clarification. It does make some sense to me now, but if I were the dealer, I'd take more of a pessimistic tone to the whole idea of boosting trade in values. I mean, if you're going to post some bogus number on the window (or on the inventory computer or whatever) and assume you're knocking it down a few hundred - those are a few hundred you could be making if you didn't knock the price down, or if you didn't offer some sort of bogus trade deal. I guess the gimmick could be helpful to those who are determined to 'get the most for their trade,' rather than the final number, but heck, a higher price on the window drives customers away too. Then again, maybe that answers my question from before, why post stickers on the windows then?
I'm mainly wondering about these tactics to compare their successfulness and complexity, as I'm aspiring to soon try my luck with getting a dealer's license. So far, I've noticed that the NY DMV does go out of its way to assist people through the initial steps. Their web site has PDF documents, some over 100 pages, regarding the requirements and what to do, and a number to call to request a free pamphlet about acquiring a dealer's license. I've heard some bad stories about other states making it tough, but New York has, so far, been very helpful.
Anyone want to share their stories about their attempts in getting licensed?
people always want to think they are getting the most for their trade. In the example we used above, the dealer could've just come right out and told the guy his trade was worth $100 and that the new one would be only $21,000 ($1000 profit). This is the way that people with no understanding of human nature think it should happen. What they don't understand is that 99 times out of 100 the customer will say, "$100? Are you crazy!?" and storm off. While this same customer can be told his trade is $1800, new one is 22,700 (same $1000 profit) and be happy as a clam.
That is exactly how you should buy a new car with a trade in. Get a firm price on the new car first,preferably in writing, and then ask about the trade. That way there is none of the number switching that landru is refering to. See how quickly the first dealer did not want to bother with your trade? Using carmax would be a good starting point for me, but in my area they seem to be a little low. The last time I talked to carmax about a trade in they were $1500 less than what i ended up getting at the dealer. And i know I got the best price on the new car because I had negotiated that first. 3 dealers would not go lower than invoice minus rebate on the new car I was buying. Then it just became a matter of how much they would give me for my trade. i went with the highest trade offer.
Dealers are funny sometimes too. The last time I bought a car and traded one in, I asked for a certain (do-able) price on the new car and a reasonable trade-in. The difference, which after all is what really matters was acceptable to me. The dealer would not take that deal as it stood, he insisted on giving me $500 more for my trade and asking $500 more for the new car. As all that matters to me is the difference, we had a deal.
...... 100 pages .. ? .. sounds about right. Has someone told you yet that you will need some property to hang that license on, then have that approved by the city, county and state for it ..?
Has anyone told you that you have to have X amount of dollars just to get fired up, plates alone will cost you $2grand+, insurance at "Fresno Franks buy here, pay here" will run well over $5grand+ just to keep junk on the lot, and that doesn't cover the monthly rent/lease/mortgage, lights, heat, air, plus all the other Itsy Bitsy stuff, like having the "right" vehicles on it .....
I you are buying a new car and have a trade-in, I think it is best to present an offer like we did in 1995. I told the salesman that I would give him our Taurus and $13600 for a new Honda. Nice and simple. It didn't waste anybody's time.
After we gave him our offer, he told me to take a hike. So I left.
The next day, I went somewhere else, offered $13750 plus the Taurus, they accepted, I wrote them a check for exactly that amount, and my daughter and I drove our new Honda to the Olive Garden for lunch.
I also took the advice of the first salesman and began hiking the Appalachian Trail. A couple years ago, I even spent 2 weeks on the AT, going thru Shenandoah National Park and almost reaching Harpers Ferry. That was too long - I missed my wife to much. That will teach me to listen to car salesmen.
Yeah, all that is spelled out in NY's Dealer Regulation Guide, fortunately. I guess by spelling it out so simply, it weeds out all the people who considered getting a license as an afterthought, to make some money on the side (as it really is a full-time operation).
I've already got the zoning map for the city and I'm looking for small parcels (a major location with lots of frontage is [hopefully] years away). I've got the name, and am ready to get the necessary paperwork with the county in a couple months. Also, there's a $10,000 bond requirement for (used car) dealers selling less than 250 cars here, so that'll follow. I agree, it's not easy, and I've got a lot of work ahead. However, I do have resources to facilitate my goal of being ready hopefully by next June or July.
Also, you do bring up an interesting point upon which I did want to learn more information on, dealer plates. That's a section that the NYDMV regulations didn't hit on too much (mainly their regulations: don't lend to family members, only cars owned by the dealership, no one customer more than five days, etc). How much does insurance, on average, run on dealer plates for a startup? Also, anyone from New York know how they are issued? On the Original Facility Application, there is a field for "Dealer Plates Requested:," but for every dealer whom I work with, plates are scarce. Thanks!
I've thought about this on REALLY bad days at work.
And I actually checked into it some years ago; secretary of state's web site makes it easy.
What I had in mind was something like, go buy 3,4 cars a year at auction, drive them for a while, then sell them for what I've got in them, give or take a few bucks. I love cars.
Okay, here's the list for MI:
- Need to have an appropriately zoned place of business. Space to display at least two cars, opening hours at least 10/week, a few other stipulations like that. - At least two (2) dealer plates. And appropriate insurance. - A repair facility on site, or a written agreement with an SAE certified shop (that would be easy to finesse, I suppose). - And a few other little things, like posting bond and whatnot. For someone with business AND car skills, not a big deal. For an amateur to start selling cars and turning a profit: Forget it.
Basically, if you do this, you'll be dripping $100 bills at a really good clip and will either have to start making money soon or have a lot of $$ stashed away.
For the right person, willing to work 60-80 hours a week, be thorough and have their hand in EVERY detail of the operation, this can be a really good business. "Time served" will also help with referrals etc., IF you have a sterling reputation.
Just figure out how many cars you need to sell at $1000 over what it cost you to put it on the ground. That's a nice round figure, and it takes skill to achieve with any consistency, I believe. Just go over to RWTIV and look at the numbers... on any $10k retail car, it can't be bought at auction, fee paid, transport paid, and put on the ground for less than $8,500. That's if nothing bad happens.
Dan, how many cars have you bought and sold so far? Have you considered working for someone else as a salesman for a year or two? There's an education, if you keep your eyes and ears open.
Imagine having to deal with a bunch of flakes... schwing on over to the new "Dealers Behaviour" thread... good God... who wants to deal with THAT on a daily basis? Not I.
Good luck to you. If you go through with your plan, please keep us posted... should make for interesting reading... Think about this: Plenty of really poorly run places out there, and many of them survive.. there IS room for making good money here, but I wouldn't count on it any time soon.
Thanks, Steine, and I agree, it's not easy. Your third paragraph is pretty much my intention, to a slightly larger extent. One or two dozen cars per year, and you've at least broken even in the investment (not that I'm trying to deemphasize the effort required in selling a car).
That list is pretty similar to New York, minus the repair shop part. Yeah, that list is pretty involved (buying or leasing property to get a lot with two spaces, sure), but it's not too unreasonable to work with when someone's intention is starting a business. What kind of business doesn't require some of those items?
I'm in a positive financial situation to be able to fund the operation for a while before breaking even, so that shouldn't be too much trouble. I've sold three cars of my own last year (heck, I took a vacation to Florida and bought a 94 Mustang I saw in the paper just to sell it up north. Florida cars go for more money up here).
A Salesman, however, I have thought about, and that's not a bad point. It just delays my goal by several years, which those years I could also be achieving more hands-on experience. But at least I wouldn't have all that money invested at that point in time
Alas, it's just something I want to get into, and I have the time and resources to try it for some time. I'll keep you posted though!
...... Mathias makes some great points, plus it "seems" your taking your time and reading all the fine print ... just make sure you understand it, and don't let the Harry's Horror show and Auto sales guy's "tell" you how it's done ... Most are sittin' in about $50 grand of water and waiting for their sister-in-law to get another home equity loan to cover next month ...
But anyway, if you need some stupid advice you can email me ...
I just had a few quick questions about LI, NY dealer fees. I'm considering buying a 03 MDX which was traded in and now being used as a demo by the dealership ( service manager driving around it in). I was just wondering should there be a destination,(aka handling or delivery fee) fee on a pre-owned vehicle? And what are the legitimate fees I am required to pay on a pre-owned/demo vehicle in the state of NY ?
I have to disagree with you. While the combined offer may work for you and your buying style, it can leave untold money on the table.
It is fairly easy to nail down the market on a new car, especially today. The event I described happened in 1996. The net was still new and was not as widely used by car buyers as it is today. The used market, at least to me, is all over the place. What with the retail value, the trade in value, the wholesale value. This is very confusing to me and I am sure other buyers and add on top of that that different trade in pubs publish different values.
I had researched what i thought was a fair trade in value. I knew that I would not get what I could get for selling it privately, but I was willing to forgo that amount of money for the ease of trading in. I was floored when the salesman offered 1800 less than I thought the trade would be. I had my print outs and asked to see his book. he showed me a little black book and across the board his values were about 1K less than the pub I was using.
With this in mind I went to some other dealers. They all agreed to match the first dealers new car price of invoice minus rebate. Some offered me a little more for the trade. Finally a guy that had offered me the same new car price and a trade of 3K called the next day and offered me 4.5K for my trade. That was within $200 of what i wanted so i did the deal.
If I had used the method you described and decided that dealers were going to give me 3.5K at the most i would have been out 1K. What worked to my advantage was that my old car was running fine and I could chose to be patient and did not have to buy the new car. If I did not like the deal offered i just got up and left. Finally a dealer wanted to sell a car bad enough.
You saw probably the best game in the NFL last Sunday since you went. Certainly the best football game at the stadium in the last decade (perhaps the equal of the UC vs Ohio State game last year).
Stangely enough, I've bought my last 3 cars from one of the "KINGS" dealerships. Pretty much sworn off Wyler (Nissan/Caddy), Performance (Honda/Toyota/Lexus), Sweeney (BMW) dealerships because of "bad dealings".
Autolivery and Rallye motors have great used cars, too.
Mass, I think we are pretty much saying the same thing. We both decided what we were willing to pay for a new car and how much we realistically thought our trade was worth, and then we tried to find a dealer who would accept our offer.
After both of us have done our calculations, I still think it simpler and more direct to do the actual car shopping my way - offer to give them our car plus a wad of cash and see if they will accept. That way, we get right to the point, which makes it better for both us and the salesman.
I agree that getting right to the point is the best option. You do not waste anyone's time that way. Unfortunately for me, on the buy I described above the salesman tried to mask the low trade value by increasing my trade and the new car price. After I took the paper work home and reduced it down I realized he was offering 3K instead of the 5K that was on the sheet. of course he had cleverly added 2K to the price of the new car too. Once I called him and told him no deal, he called back the next day and agreed to the new car at invoice minus rebate and the trade at 4.5K.
Do any dealers offer any doorbusters for Black Friday? Do they have them in the paper on Thursday?
Just to gloat a little, your experience shows perfectly why it can be beter to do things my way.
I sit at home and determine what I plan to offer for a new car and subtract what my trade is worth. Then I add on sales tax, tag, and title to determine EXACTLY how much money I plan to hand to the dealer.
Then I offer that amount to the dealer. Sometimes we get the car. Sometimes we get the boot.
For example, we offered $13750 plus our Taurus to get a Honda in 1995. They accepted. On the sales contract, they had the price of the new car $500 less than I had determined and the trade was also $500 less. I didn't make no never mind to me. It cost us exactly $13750, so I was happy.
Hi dcyn. Destination charges are fees that are assessed by automakers to cover the transportation of their new vehicles to dealerships. Destination is considered to be part of new vehicle prices and will be exactly the same for a particular model, regardless of what part of the country one is in. Used vehicles are a different animal though. There is no such thing as an official destination charge for used vehicles. Having said this, dealers are free to try to tack what ever sort of fees they want to the prices of their used vehicles. Dealers usually add fees to deals to cloud the picture and make consumers think that they are getting better deals than they really are. For instance, some dealers charge huge doc fees so that they can price their vehicles lower than their competitors and spring their fee on unsuspecting consumers when they are already emotionally attached to the vehicle that they are interested in. It is in your best interest as a consumer to look at the big picture. You want to drive off in the model that you want having spent as little money as possible. Ask for an out-the-door price for the used vehicle that you are interested in. Once you know the total price for the vehicle you want, you can compare that figure to similar vehicles that you have seen for sale locally, Edmunds.com's True Market Value for this model, or even stop by the Real-World Trade-In Values discussion where Terry, one of our most knowledgeable community members, is often willing to give his opinion on deals.
I was under the impression that only NEW cars had a destination fee. So when this dealer I'm negotiating with tried to tack on $500 to the selling price by calling it a destination fee I walked out..I had finally had enough. I won't deal with him any longer, I sick of his games.
Say, let me ask you .. is it usual practice to have a service manager driving around in a vehicle a customer wants to buy and has tried to put a deposit ( the dealership was asking for $1K I put down $200 in "good faith") down on (the dealership didn't process the deposit.. claimed could without the title... the vehicle has been on the lot for a little over a month.... he vehicle supposedly was a trade in so fast the title hadn't come back from Albany.. now the service manager is using it as a demo)? Couldn't a duplicate title have been gotten for about $10? And what kind of dealership calls you to come down to look at the car and sign papers, then when you get down there the vehicle is no where in sight( that's when you find out the service manager has been using it as his own private vehicle.. when the service manager does bring the vehicle back he yells across the service bay to the salesman with the customer standing there "Be careful of my truck")? I find this COMPLETELY unprofessional and on the sleazy side. BTW, this vehicle is a 03 Acura MDX touring w/nav.. but even that has it's limits to the crap I'll take.
Perfect opportunity for you to walk over to the service manager...and, since it's "his" truck... ask him how much he wants for it! No need to go thru the dealership at that point, right?
IF the guy was serious, that's pretty funny. Usually it's the prospective buyer that gets to keep a vehicle overnight - with the idea they are supposed to emotionally fall in love with it, become its de facto new owner, show it to the neighbors, etc. then buy it.
...... Like I said before, there's something "hinky" going on here .. dealers don't need the title to sell a vehicle, once you ok'd the vehicle, agreed on the price and with approved credit, you should have been bustin' bugs .....
Get this .. looked on the dealership website today and what do my little brown eyes see..a listing for a silver 03 Acura MDX with very low mileage for around $40...hmmm, I think to myself..could it be...NAHHHHHHHHHHHH!! That would be wrong ..on so many levels.
At last, the NYer came out in me and I called upon a friend of mine to call the dealership an inquire about said vehicle ( shame, shame on me for having such thoughts). Why, do you know they told him that vehicle had been traded in by a exccentric guy who wanted an 04 Acura MDX(gee, who would have thought there would be two cars with the same story..dah not me), the title had just come in after a waiting period ( what another coincidence ),and the vehicle could be purchased for $37 or lower( same price range, this is getting downright scary..I'm getting goose bumps). My friend said they told him to,"come on down and see the car,sign the papers a drive it out today". Do you think the dealer is trying to sell the vehicle behind my back and get more money..I do.
Here's the whole story ..I basically think the dealer wanted $24 difference between the 03 MDX and my trade in ( 1999 3.2 TL w/nav, deep emerald green, parchment leather interior, Lo jack, 2nd alarm, wheel locks, wood shift knob, genuine Acura floor mats and mudguards and only 33,869 miles. The hood has been replaced due to HID headlight thieves bending fenders and hood to get at lights and the left passenger side painted to take out some scratches).
Instead of coming out and saying that he tried to rise the purchase price we had negotiated while lowering the trade-in price ( neg. purchase price was $36 then when was appraised trade-in stated as $13. Well, of course I wasn't about to take the first offer so trade-in price goes to $13,5. All all of a sudden purchase price is now $36,5 and trade-in is back down to $12000! Well, of course I reminded salesman the neg price was $36..he doesn't remember that.. he remembered it when he called me earlier in the day to say vehicle was still available..hmmm, selective memory. Now get this.. the salesman starts whining that I'm trying to beat him both ways on the purchase price and the trade-in.. like he's not trying to do that to me!). Well, I left at this point it was getting ridiculous.. especially when the salesman is saying " call me" as I pull out the service bay (yeah, call him ..I know what I want to call him but that kind of language isn't permitted on the boards). We started off with a mere $250 difference and ended up with a $1500 difference.
Anyway, I spoke with the second salesman working on this deal a few days ago( yah, they brought in a "closer"). He asked what happened with the deal, I told him the neg price was raised. He stated "oh, no we negotiated the purchase price already,its $36. I know what it could be .. they are including a destination fee. I was trying to get it waived for you. I'll go talk to my manager about it right now and call you back" ( destination fee on a pre-owned,trade-in demo...hahahahahaahaha).
Well, I haven't received that call back yet. If they had just been honest up front , this could have been settled a week ago. I would have the vehicle and they would have the cash and trade-in. What kind of dealership is this? I never meet a dealership that ran from money.. until now.
Oh.. when I tried to do a Carfax report on the vin # there was no record available in the database..isn't that unusual?
Sorry, it's so long but that brings me to where I currently stand. Hope this experience has been benifical in so way. Thanks all for your shoulders and advice.
What do you mean when you say you "tried" to leave a deposit. Do they have your $200? It sounds like they didn't keep any money of yours so it seems pretty obvious they don't want to sell it to you, for whatever reason.
...... Aaah ha.! .. another case for Myth Busters ..
From what I have read, it "sounds" like you never had a deal to begin with .. no paper work ..? no contract ..? .. so you had Zippity do Dah .. "probably" the UC Mgr didn't like the number he used on your trade, salesman gets stuck in the middle, I dunno ..
The Carsmack deal, they are pretty accurate, but not perfect .. you needed to be speaking with the original owner, and that title thing is almost sureal ..
Anyway, do you know what I like about this deal ...?
Over three months ago I negotiated an excellent price for a Toyota Sienna XLE Limited, signed a “Sold Order”, and put down a deposit of $2000.00. This car is in very short supply and difficult to obtain. Last week my car arrived at the dealership. Unfortunately when I went to pick up the car, I noticed two exterior paint scratches on one of the sliding doors. The dealership has acknowledged that the damage occurred on the dealer premises.
The exterior paint appeared to be the result of contact with a sharp, hard object. Each was about 2 to 3 inches in length. I could feel the scratches with my finger and a dark grey line was visible in the center of each scratch. (The car is a metallic white color.) I would say that the clear coat was definitely compromised. However, the sales manager claimed they could fix these scratches.
I was reluctant to purchase the car until I saw the results of the repair. However, the dealer has a 3 day/200mile money back guarantee and they pressured me into signing the paperwork. I did not take possession of the car, leaving it at the dealership for them to repair.
The next day, the service department called me and told me it was ready to pick up. I asked how the repairs were done. The service manager said they used solvent to clean the scratch, and buffed the area. Although I am no expert on car finishes, I told the Director of Sales at the dealership that I felt this was probably not an adequate repair for a new car. The Director of Sales told me that a Toyota representative inspected the repair and advised them not to do anything else to it, and put it back on the lot for sale if I don’t want it. The Director of Sales also said that the exterior paint on the car, including the area where the repairs were made, is completely covered under Toyota’s 3year/36,000mile warranty. I am uncomfortable with that statement because the damage was done by the dealership, not by the factory. I have asked for the name and phone number of the Toyota representative to verify that the repairs are authorized by Toyota. The dealership gave me a name and phone number yesterday but said this person is out of town and can’t be reached until he is back in his office 3 days from now.
I have asked the dealership to allow me to return the car under their 3day/200mile money back guarantee and order another new car for me. Even though I am not happy about it, I am willing to wait another 2 months or so to get an undamaged car. They have indicated that if they order me another car, it will be at a higher price (demand is higher now for this car than it was 3 months ago). They are urging me to take possession of the repaired car and return it if I am not satisfied. Although the scratches may not be very noticeable as a result of the repairs, I am concerned that the fixed scratches will become more visible over time. I described the damage to a reputable body shop which I have used in the past. The owner of the body shop told me that typically scratches that can be felt with a finger are not easy to repair correctly. He said that it sounded as if the entire door may need to be repainted. This work would be quite extensive and expensive, involving taking the door off the van, removing the trim and window, etc.
The price I negotiated 3 months ago was for a new undamaged car. I suspect that the value of this car is now less than the value of a new car which has not been damaged. I am willing to accept the car if the sales price were adjusted to compensate for the damage. However, I think they are unwilling to do that, especially because I paid only $500.00 higher than the dealers invoice. I am willing to wait for another new car to be delivered, but they seem unwilling to sell me another one at the same agreed to price. (They want $1000.00 more than I paid)
I have agreed to look at the car tomorrow. As I mentioned previously, I have signed a contract with the dealership, and the Director of Sales is urging me to take possession of the car and return it under their 3 day/200 mile money back guarantee if I am not satisfied.
I am wondering what I can do to compel the dealer to either drop the price on the repaired car or agree to sell me another one at the same negotiated price. I would appreciate comments and or suggestions.
I think it is extremely unreasonable for you to expect the dealer to drop the price of the repaired car or to sell you another one for that price.
Here's the facts. You put down a deposit for a new car, the car came in with a flaw, and the dealer fixed it. You are not satisfied with the repair they made, so you refuse to accept the car. In that case, you are entitled to get your money back. That deal is history.
The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on.
If you want to buy another car, you have to negotiate a whole new deal. That's how the world works.
If you buy a car in Delaware, but live in VA, you pay the tax when you register the car in VA (at whatever % rate is in VA). Everybody would buy cars in DE (or any other 0% tax state) if you didn't have to pay tax no matter where you lived.
.... **if I am not satisfied. Although the scratches may not be very noticeable as a result of the repairs, I am concerned that the fixed scratches will become more visible over time. I described the damage to a reputable body shop which I have used in the past. The owner of the body shop told me that typically scratches that can be felt with a finger are not easy to repair correctly. He said that it sounded as if the entire door may need to be repainted.**
Sounds like your on "the Hunt for Red October" .. meaning: your looking for problems in "every" direction. The body guy doesn't know because your giving him a verbal description over the phone, besides they are like surgeons, they do what they do best, in this case ~ paint ...
The dealer is giving you every opportunity, drive it, don't drive it, keep it, don't keep it, buy it, don't buy it ... now you want him to lower his price because you can't make up "your" mind, it doesn't work that way ...
But anyway, having almost the whole thing repainted because of of two small scratches is going to come back to hunt you at trade time .. based on your description, these are probably the same baby scratches you will see the first time you go Xmas shopping ...
Within weeks of purchasing my beautiful crystal blue Miata LS, a careless coworker opened her car door into my front fender, scuffing the clearcoat. It did not scratch the paint but it could not be buffed out either. The body shop said to get rid of the scuff mark, the fender would have to be repainted to the tune of over $400.
I did not make my coworker pay to repaint the scuff, to me that seemed ridiculous, even though she would have done it.
A year later, I have a more noticeable scratch in the clear coat on my trunk lid that came from who knows where. At least the one of the fender is only visible if the sun and the moon and Uranus are properly aligned.
My point is, you can go nuts worrying over the scratch, or just accept the fact that it's going to happen sooner or later and just live with it.
PS, before you say it, NO, it does n't make you feel any better to have the car be pristine for 3 weeks before the first scratch. When it gets scratched it sucks no matter when or where ti happens...but it WILL happen (if you drive it).
I can see going nuts over scratches if it was say a brand new porche or $85k MB, but a minivan? Most people who buy a minivan have kids.....kids equal scratches, scuffs, finger prints, and who knows what else to a vehicle. I'd just be relieved that the first scratch/dent was out of the way and move on.
Heck, if I buy a new vehicle first thing I do is put a scratch on it.....not a big one, just a teeny one by the door lock, then I can say *I* put the first scratch on it.
Thanks to everyone who responded. Upon further discussion with the dealer, I have learned that the scratches are still discernable. Because the scratches appeared quite deep, I'm concerned about surface rust which I've learned is not covered under the Toyota warranty. (I live near the coast) This is the most expensive car I've ever purchased, over $40,000 out the door. I don't have kids and plan on taking very good care of it a long time. At this point,I'm leaning toward asking for a refund and waiting until next year to buy when the supply situation improves.
Good move. if you are not completely happy and the dealer is willing to unwind the deal, I would say do it.
royce...i respect your input here, but I do not feel that toysienna is being unreasonable. If the scratches are as bad as he says, there is a chance that there might be a problem in the future. If toyota does not cover surface rust, then toysienna will be the one left holding the bag down the road if there is an issue.
You do need to be happy with whatever you buy. If you already have a bad taste about a car, it will probably annoy you the entire time you own it.
Plus, if it is significant enough to need real paint work to fix properly, than your resale value is already lower (since the used car manager of the future will say paintwork, deduct).
I've found a car lot willing to consign the Chevy for a reasonable fee ($50/mo while it sits there), anyway, the one thing that they are asking for has got me rather concerned.
So, I'll ask you guys.....
They want me to drop the truck off WITH the title, that bothers me. I figured I'd just hand over the title when they hand me a check after the truck is sold. I have a copy of the title in a packet of paperwork for the truck (repair receipts and such), but I keep the title at home.
What do you guys think? I've had dealings with this guy before, I sold him my Escort a few months ago. He's not exactly Mr Straight and Narrow, he basically runs sort of a buy here pay here, along with a legit car lot (he does financing through the banks).
I just hate the headache of selling a vehicle on my own, been there, done that. However, I'm not really into getting bent over either, I just want the truck sold and I guess if I had to do it on my own I will. *grumble*
I can't speak for all dealerships but apx 10-30% of all new cars arrive with some sort of damage. Usually its a small scratch that vanishes when the car is waxed and others require more extensive work.
He wants 50.00 a month just to kep your truck on the lot??
And he wants to hold the title?
I don't know much about the workings of consignment lots but I always thought they simply kept anything over the minimum the owner wanted for their car.
Sounds flaky if you ask me. I think I would at least give it a shot by running an ad. There is always the chance that truck is exactly what someone in your area is looking for.
The other place that would consign it wanted $200 up front just to park it on their lot and advertise it, then they get 10% of the sale price, I said thanks, but no thanks. The original place I was going to have consign it just took whatever over my minimum after it was sold which was fine with me. I dunno, guess I'll drop an ad in the paper and see what happens. Right now I'm thinking *plow truck*, but then I'd have to have the money to buy a plow. *sigh*
We are at 12 inches of snow and counting, plus high winds, drifts, its horrible, I can barely get the Explorer in and out of the driveway.
Comments
This is how the classic "Push, Pull or Drag Sale" or "$2000 Guaranteed Trade Allowance" sales work. The price on the window is high enough to allow a $100 trade be "worth" $2000 on paper.
Carmax has given me blue book 'good' trade-in both times I have used them. For the Accord I am buying the dealer was originally $1000 lower than Carmax, but with the quote I brought them to match they 'decided' to give me what Carmax offered minus the tax benefit. I was basically told I 'had' to trade in my car to get the Accord for the price I want (around $350 over Edmund's invoice). In the end it works out the same to me. They get to sell my trade-in and make money off of it, and in the end I get the same for my trade-in as selling it to Carmax. Since I am happy with blue book trade-in 'good' value it works for both of us.
I'm mainly wondering about these tactics to compare their successfulness and complexity, as I'm aspiring to soon try my luck with getting a dealer's license. So far, I've noticed that the NY DMV does go out of its way to assist people through the initial steps. Their web site has PDF documents, some over 100 pages, regarding the requirements and what to do, and a number to call to request a free pamphlet about acquiring a dealer's license. I've heard some bad stories about other states making it tough, but New York has, so far, been very helpful.
Anyone want to share their stories about their attempts in getting licensed?
People are funny sometimes.
Dealers are funny sometimes too. The last time I bought a car and traded one in, I asked for a certain (do-able) price on the new car and a reasonable trade-in. The difference, which after all is what really matters was acceptable to me. The dealer would not take that deal as it stood, he insisted on giving me $500 more for my trade and asking $500 more for the new car. As all that matters to me is the difference, we had a deal.
Has anyone told you that you have to have X amount of dollars just to get fired up, plates alone will cost you $2grand+, insurance at "Fresno Franks buy here, pay here" will run well over $5grand+ just to keep junk on the lot, and that doesn't cover the monthly rent/lease/mortgage, lights, heat, air, plus all the other Itsy Bitsy stuff, like having the "right" vehicles on it .....
Terry.
After we gave him our offer, he told me to take a hike. So I left.
The next day, I went somewhere else, offered $13750 plus the Taurus, they accepted, I wrote them a check for exactly that amount, and my daughter and I drove our new Honda to the Olive Garden for lunch.
I also took the advice of the first salesman and began hiking the Appalachian Trail. A couple years ago, I even spent 2 weeks on the AT, going thru Shenandoah National Park and almost reaching Harpers Ferry. That was too long - I missed my wife to much. That will teach me to listen to car salesmen.
Some dealers are scumbags, so are some people.
I hope that clarifies my position.
Yeah, all that is spelled out in NY's Dealer Regulation Guide, fortunately. I guess by spelling it out so simply, it weeds out all the people who considered getting a license as an afterthought, to make some money on the side (as it really is a full-time operation).
I've already got the zoning map for the city and I'm looking for small parcels (a major location with lots of frontage is [hopefully] years away). I've got the name, and am ready to get the necessary paperwork with the county in a couple months. Also, there's a $10,000 bond requirement for (used car) dealers selling less than 250 cars here, so that'll follow. I agree, it's not easy, and I've got a lot of work ahead. However, I do have resources to facilitate my goal of being ready hopefully by next June or July.
Also, you do bring up an interesting point upon which I did want to learn more information on, dealer plates. That's a section that the NYDMV regulations didn't hit on too much (mainly their regulations: don't lend to family members, only cars owned by the dealership, no one customer more than five days, etc). How much does insurance, on average, run on dealer plates for a startup? Also, anyone from New York know how they are issued? On the Original Facility Application, there is a field for "Dealer Plates Requested:," but for every dealer whom I work with, plates are scarce. Thanks!
And I actually checked into it some years ago; secretary of state's web site makes it easy.
What I had in mind was something like, go buy 3,4 cars a year at auction, drive them for a while, then sell them for what I've got in them, give or take a few bucks. I love cars.
Okay, here's the list for MI:
- Need to have an appropriately zoned place of business. Space to display at least two cars, opening hours at least 10/week, a few other stipulations like that.
- At least two (2) dealer plates. And appropriate insurance.
- A repair facility on site, or a written agreement with an SAE certified shop (that would be easy to finesse, I suppose).
- And a few other little things, like posting bond and whatnot. For someone with business AND car skills, not a big deal. For an amateur to start selling cars and turning a profit: Forget it.
Basically, if you do this, you'll be dripping $100 bills at a really good clip and will either have to start making money soon or have a lot of $$ stashed away.
For the right person, willing to work 60-80 hours a week, be thorough and have their hand in EVERY detail of the operation, this can be a really good business. "Time served" will also help with referrals etc., IF you have a sterling reputation.
Just figure out how many cars you need to sell at $1000 over what it cost you to put it on the ground. That's a nice round figure, and it takes skill to achieve with any consistency, I believe. Just go over to RWTIV and look at the numbers... on any $10k retail car, it can't be bought at auction, fee paid, transport paid, and put on the ground for less than $8,500. That's if nothing bad happens.
Dan, how many cars have you bought and sold so far? Have you considered working for someone else as a salesman for a year or two? There's an education, if you keep your eyes and ears open.
Imagine having to deal with a bunch of flakes... schwing on over to the new "Dealers Behaviour" thread... good God... who wants to deal with THAT on a daily basis? Not I.
Good luck to you. If you go through with your plan, please keep us posted... should make for interesting reading... Think about this: Plenty of really poorly run places out there, and many of them survive.. there IS room for making good money here, but I wouldn't count on it any time soon.
-Mathias
That list is pretty similar to New York, minus the repair shop part. Yeah, that list is pretty involved (buying or leasing property to get a lot with two spaces, sure), but it's not too unreasonable to work with when someone's intention is starting a business. What kind of business doesn't require some of those items?
I'm in a positive financial situation to be able to fund the operation for a while before breaking even, so that shouldn't be too much trouble. I've sold three cars of my own last year (heck, I took a vacation to Florida and bought a 94 Mustang I saw in the paper just to sell it up north. Florida cars go for more money up here).
A Salesman, however, I have thought about, and that's not a bad point. It just delays my goal by several years, which those years I could also be achieving more hands-on experience. But at least I wouldn't have all that money invested at that point in time
Alas, it's just something I want to get into, and I have the time and resources to try it for some time. I'll keep you posted though!
But anyway, if you need some stupid advice you can email me ...
Terry
I just had a few quick questions about LI, NY dealer fees. I'm considering buying a 03 MDX which was traded in and now being used as a demo by the dealership ( service manager driving around it in). I was just wondering should there be a destination,(aka handling or delivery fee) fee on a pre-owned vehicle? And what are the legitimate fees I am required to pay on a pre-owned/demo vehicle in the state of NY ?
Thanks for any help you can provide.
It is fairly easy to nail down the market on a new car, especially today. The event I described happened in 1996. The net was still new and was not as widely used by car buyers as it is today. The used market, at least to me, is all over the place. What with the retail value, the trade in value, the wholesale value. This is very confusing to me and I am sure other buyers and add on top of that that different trade in pubs publish different values.
I had researched what i thought was a fair trade in value. I knew that I would not get what I could get for selling it privately, but I was willing to forgo that amount of money for the ease of trading in. I was floored when the salesman offered 1800 less than I thought the trade would be. I had my print outs and asked to see his book. he showed me a little black book and across the board his values were about 1K less than the pub I was using.
With this in mind I went to some other dealers. They all agreed to match the first dealers new car price of invoice minus rebate. Some offered me a little more for the trade. Finally a guy that had offered me the same new car price and a trade of 3K called the next day and offered me 4.5K for my trade. That was within $200 of what i wanted so i did the deal.
If I had used the method you described and decided that dealers were going to give me 3.5K at the most i would have been out 1K. What worked to my advantage was that my old car was running fine and I could chose to be patient and did not have to buy the new car. If I did not like the deal offered i just got up and left. Finally a dealer wanted to sell a car bad enough.
Stangely enough, I've bought my last 3 cars from one of the "KINGS" dealerships. Pretty much sworn off Wyler (Nissan/Caddy), Performance (Honda/Toyota/Lexus), Sweeney (BMW) dealerships because of "bad dealings".
Autolivery and Rallye motors have great used cars, too.
After both of us have done our calculations, I still think it simpler and more direct to do the actual car shopping my way - offer to give them our car plus a wad of cash and see if they will accept. That way, we get right to the point, which makes it better for both us and the salesman.
Do any dealers offer any doorbusters for Black Friday? Do they have them in the paper on Thursday?
I sit at home and determine what I plan to offer for a new car and subtract what my trade is worth. Then I add on sales tax, tag, and title to determine EXACTLY how much money I plan to hand to the dealer.
Then I offer that amount to the dealer. Sometimes we get the car. Sometimes we get the boot.
For example, we offered $13750 plus our Taurus to get a Honda in 1995. They accepted. On the sales contract, they had the price of the new car $500 less than I had determined and the trade was also $500 less. I didn't make no never mind to me. It cost us exactly $13750, so I was happy.
Car_man
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I was under the impression that only NEW cars had a destination fee. So when this dealer I'm negotiating with tried to tack on $500 to the selling price by calling it a destination fee I walked out..I had finally had enough. I won't deal with him any longer, I sick of his games.
Say, let me ask you .. is it usual practice to have a service manager driving around in a vehicle a customer wants to buy and has tried to put a deposit ( the dealership was asking for $1K I put down $200 in "good faith") down on (the dealership didn't process the deposit.. claimed could without the title... the vehicle has been on the lot for a little over a month.... he vehicle supposedly was a trade in so fast the title hadn't come back from Albany.. now the service manager is using it as a demo)? Couldn't a duplicate title have been gotten for about $10? And what kind of dealership calls you to come down to look at the car and sign papers, then when you get down there the vehicle is no where in sight( that's when you find out the service manager has been using it as his own private vehicle.. when the service manager does bring the vehicle back he yells across the service bay to the salesman with the customer standing there "Be careful of my truck")? I find this COMPLETELY unprofessional and on the sleazy side. BTW, this vehicle is a 03 Acura MDX touring w/nav.. but even that has it's limits to the crap I'll take.
Thanks again for your help.
IF the guy was serious, that's pretty funny. Usually it's the prospective buyer that gets to keep a vehicle overnight - with the idea they are supposed to emotionally fall in love with it, become its de facto new owner, show it to the neighbors, etc. then buy it.
Now it's the dealership staff.
Gotta love it.
Terry.
Get this .. looked on the dealership website today and what do my little brown eyes see..a listing for a silver 03 Acura MDX with very low mileage for around $40...hmmm, I think to myself..could it be...NAHHHHHHHHHHHH!! That would be wrong ..on so many levels.
At last, the NYer came out in me and I called upon a friend of mine to call the dealership an inquire about said vehicle ( shame, shame on me for having such thoughts). Why, do you know they told him that vehicle had been traded in by a exccentric guy who wanted an 04 Acura MDX(gee, who would have thought there would be two cars with the same story..dah not me), the title had just come in after a waiting period ( what another coincidence ),and the vehicle could be purchased for $37 or lower( same price range, this is getting downright scary..I'm getting goose bumps). My friend said they told him to,"come on down and see the car,sign the papers a drive it out today". Do you think the dealer is trying to sell the vehicle behind my back and get more money..I do.
Here's the whole story ..I basically think the dealer wanted $24 difference between the 03 MDX and my trade in ( 1999 3.2 TL w/nav, deep emerald green, parchment leather interior, Lo jack, 2nd alarm, wheel locks, wood shift knob, genuine Acura floor mats and mudguards and only 33,869 miles. The hood has been replaced due to HID headlight thieves bending fenders and hood to get at lights and the left passenger side painted to take out some scratches).
Instead of coming out and saying that he tried to rise the purchase price we had negotiated while lowering the trade-in price ( neg. purchase price was $36 then when was appraised trade-in stated as $13. Well, of course I wasn't about to take the first offer so trade-in price goes to $13,5. All all of a sudden purchase price is now $36,5 and trade-in is back down to $12000! Well, of course I reminded salesman the neg price was $36..he doesn't remember that.. he remembered it when he called me earlier in the day to say vehicle was still available..hmmm, selective memory. Now get this.. the salesman starts whining that I'm trying to beat him both ways on the purchase price and the trade-in.. like he's not trying to do that to me!). Well, I left at this point it was getting ridiculous.. especially when the salesman is saying " call me" as I pull out the service bay (yeah, call him ..I know what I want to call him but that kind of language isn't permitted on the boards). We started off with a mere $250 difference and ended up with a $1500 difference.
Anyway, I spoke with the second salesman working on this deal a few days ago( yah, they brought in a "closer"). He asked what happened with the deal, I told him the neg price was raised. He stated "oh, no we negotiated the purchase price already,its $36. I know what it could be .. they are including a destination fee. I was trying to get it waived for you. I'll go talk to my manager about it right now and call you back" ( destination fee on a pre-owned,trade-in demo...hahahahahaahaha).
Well, I haven't received that call back yet. If they had just been honest up front , this could have been settled a week ago. I would have the vehicle and they would have the cash and trade-in. What kind of dealership is this? I never meet a dealership that ran from money.. until now.
Oh.. when I tried to do a Carfax report on the vin # there was no record available in the database..isn't that unusual?
Sorry, it's so long but that brings me to where I currently stand. Hope this experience has been benifical in so way. Thanks all for your shoulders and advice.
What do you mean when you say you "tried" to leave a deposit. Do they have your $200? It sounds like they didn't keep any money of yours so it seems pretty obvious they don't want to sell it to you, for whatever reason.
Time to move on and find another one.
From what I have read, it "sounds" like you never had a deal to begin with .. no paper work ..? no contract ..? .. so you had Zippity do Dah .. "probably" the UC Mgr didn't like the number he used on your trade, salesman gets stuck in the middle, I dunno ..
The Carsmack deal, they are pretty accurate, but not perfect .. you needed to be speaking with the original owner, and that title thing is almost sureal ..
Anyway, do you know what I like about this deal ...?
Nothing ...! .. move one ..!
Terry
Wise old Welsh proverb from TronSr
That's a new one!
Fooma..WON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN!
The exterior paint appeared to be the result of contact with a sharp, hard object. Each was about 2 to 3 inches in length. I could feel the scratches with my finger and a dark grey line was visible in the center of each scratch. (The car is a metallic white color.) I would say that the clear coat was definitely compromised. However, the sales manager claimed they could fix these scratches.
I was reluctant to purchase the car until I saw the results of the repair. However, the dealer has a 3 day/200mile money back guarantee and they pressured me into signing the paperwork. I did not take possession of the car, leaving it at the dealership for them to repair.
The next day, the service department called me and told me it was ready to pick up. I asked how the repairs were done. The service manager said they used solvent to clean the scratch, and buffed the area. Although I am no expert on car finishes, I told the Director of Sales at the dealership that I felt this was probably not an adequate repair for a new car. The Director of Sales told me that a Toyota representative inspected the repair and advised them not to do anything else to it, and put it back on the lot for sale if I don’t want it. The Director of Sales also said that the exterior paint on the car, including the area where the repairs were made, is completely covered under Toyota’s 3year/36,000mile warranty. I am uncomfortable with that statement because the damage was done by the dealership, not by the factory. I have asked for the name and phone number of the Toyota representative to verify that the repairs are authorized by Toyota. The dealership gave me a name and phone number yesterday but said this person is out of town and can’t be reached until he is back in his office 3 days from now.
I have asked the dealership to allow me to return the car under their 3day/200mile money back guarantee and order another new car for me. Even though I am not happy about it, I am willing to wait another 2 months or so to get an undamaged car. They have indicated that if they order me another car, it will be at a higher price (demand is higher now for this car than it was 3 months ago). They are urging me to take possession of the repaired car and return it if I am not satisfied. Although the scratches may not be very noticeable as a result of the repairs, I am concerned that the fixed scratches will become more visible over time. I described the damage to a reputable body shop which I have used in the past. The owner of the body shop told me that typically scratches that can be felt with a finger are not easy to repair correctly. He said that it sounded as if the entire door may need to be repainted. This work would be quite extensive and expensive, involving taking the door off the van, removing the trim and window, etc.
The price I negotiated 3 months ago was for a new undamaged car. I suspect that the value of this car is now less than the value of a new car which has not been damaged. I am willing to accept the car if the sales price were adjusted to compensate for the damage. However, I think they are unwilling to do that, especially because I paid only $500.00 higher than the dealers invoice. I am willing to wait for another new car to be delivered, but they seem unwilling to sell me another one at the same agreed to price. (They want $1000.00 more than I paid)
I have agreed to look at the car tomorrow. As I mentioned previously, I have signed a contract with the dealership, and the Director of Sales is urging me to take possession of the car and return it under their 3 day/200 mile money back guarantee if I am not satisfied.
I am wondering what I can do to compel the dealer to either drop the price on the repaired car or agree to sell me another one at the same negotiated price. I would appreciate comments and or suggestions.
Here's the facts. You put down a deposit for a new car, the car came in with a flaw, and the dealer fixed it. You are not satisfied with the repair they made, so you refuse to accept the car. In that case, you are entitled to get your money back. That deal is history.
The moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on.
If you want to buy another car, you have to negotiate a whole new deal. That's how the world works.
Sounds like your on "the Hunt for Red October" .. meaning: your looking for problems in "every" direction. The body guy doesn't know because your giving him a verbal description over the phone, besides they are like surgeons, they do what they do best, in this case ~ paint ...
The dealer is giving you every opportunity, drive it, don't drive it, keep it, don't keep it, buy it, don't buy it ... now you want him to lower his price because you can't make up "your" mind, it doesn't work that way ...
But anyway, having almost the whole thing repainted because of of two small scratches is going to come back to hunt you at trade time .. based on your description, these are probably the same baby scratches you will see the first time you go Xmas shopping ...
Good luck ..
Terry.
I did not make my coworker pay to repaint the scuff, to me that seemed ridiculous, even though she would have done it.
A year later, I have a more noticeable scratch in the clear coat on my trunk lid that came from who knows where. At least the one of the fender is only visible if the sun and the moon and Uranus are properly aligned.
My point is, you can go nuts worrying over the scratch, or just accept the fact that it's going to happen sooner or later and just live with it.
PS, before you say it, NO, it does n't make you feel any better to have the car be pristine for 3 weeks before the first scratch. When it gets scratched it sucks no matter when or where ti happens...but it WILL happen (if you drive it).
Heck, if I buy a new vehicle first thing I do is put a scratch on it.....not a big one, just a teeny one by the door lock, then I can say *I* put the first scratch on it.
royce...i respect your input here, but I do not feel that toysienna is being unreasonable. If the scratches are as bad as he says, there is a chance that there might be a problem in the future. If toyota does not cover surface rust, then toysienna will be the one left holding the bag down the road if there is an issue.
Plus, if it is significant enough to need real paint work to fix properly, than your resale value is already lower (since the used car manager of the future will say paintwork, deduct).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Terry.
So, I'll ask you guys.....
They want me to drop the truck off WITH the title, that bothers me. I figured I'd just hand over the title when they hand me a check after the truck is sold. I have a copy of the title in a packet of paperwork for the truck (repair receipts and such), but I keep the title at home.
What do you guys think? I've had dealings with this guy before, I sold him my Escort a few months ago. He's not exactly Mr Straight and Narrow, he basically runs sort of a buy here pay here, along with a legit car lot (he does financing through the banks).
I just hate the headache of selling a vehicle on my own, been there, done that. However, I'm not really into getting bent over either, I just want the truck sold and I guess if I had to do it on my own I will. *grumble*
And he wants to hold the title?
I don't know much about the workings of consignment lots but I always thought they simply kept anything over the minimum the owner wanted for their car.
Sounds flaky if you ask me. I think I would at least give it a shot by running an ad. There is always the chance that truck is exactly what someone in your area is looking for.
We are at 12 inches of snow and counting, plus high winds, drifts, its horrible, I can barely get the Explorer in and out of the driveway.
Good Luck, and Happy Thanksgiving.
And the Happy Thanksgiving applies to everyone!