I've posted my feelings on my car in the "Owner's Club" section of Edmund's. (Saab Owners, 9-3) Check it out as I don't feel this is not the appropriate forum to discuss my car. Email me if you have any questions.
blevin@graphicsys.com
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Sunroof - has anyone found this without the convenience package?
The catalog lists it as a separate option, however edmunds, carsdirect & dealernet list the convenience as a requirement & I really don't want to spend the extra $.
I'd like to know the process/best way to protect myself in signing the paperwork/making down payment. I want to make sure I've got the dealer's financing approved & detailed on the contract before I sign, and certainly before I put any money down (it'll be $10,000). I assume the approval can be done within a day?
The dealer will be finding the car elsewhere. As long as I have signed the contract (after getting loan details in writing?) I shouldn't give my down payment until I get the car - right? I've read so many scary things & this is my 1st purchase. Thanks.
As long as you are not hiding something, and you go over the details step by step ..it will be clear to both you, and the dealer.... you won't have any problems ....
I ordered an Escape last week and on the bill of sale there is an x-plan tax that the dealer added to the price. He explained it as "the gov't charges a tax on the difference between the x-plan price and the sticker price." Is that legit? I'm in Cook County, Illinois. Which gov't agency would be getting that tax?
...... Hey Great choice ... I'm not much of a SUV guy, but I do like those Escapes ...
But anyway, I have never heard of that ... you should be paying tax on the sale price only -- This would be a Tax on a Tax.. and this would be on a "invisible" amount ....
Nope -- I don't think so, sounds like a little bit of "Creative Financing" too me..
Just because you are going "X" plan .. doesn't mean the dealer won't try to "F" you around...
I'll call up the saleman on Monday and ask for an explanation. I've also noticed that the math was wrong ($30 over) - note to self: Take calculator with you next time you go car shopping. This dissapoints me, as this dealership has given me the best service out of any that I have been to, despite me not buying my Focus there (moved to the area 7 months ago and have dealt with 3 dealers in this area). That was precisely the reason I ordered my Escape from this particular dealership.
I guess that if things get ugly I'll have to talk to the manager and remind him that I work for the company whos employees give this dealer most of their business and that complaining to the HR department can get them erased from our internal document that lists area businesses who give preferential treatment to our employees.
They probably are just counting on me accepting the numbers and not doing any checking. I mean, even with these "fudgings", I am getting a good deal. But now that I know they are shady, I'm not sure I want to deal with them.
When you say "Not in the US of A..." are you referring to x-plan availability or dealers not being penalized for fudging x-plan numbers?
I think what Landru2 is referring to when he is talking about x-plan availability is through the EAA, but as of December 1 that loophole has been closed.
Yes, as of December 1 you must be a member of the EAA for 1 full year before you can get the x-plan discount through them. I guess it was getting too popular. On the other hand, I may have to make the trip up to Oshkosh this year, as all those new memberships should have given the EAA quite a cash infusion. Hopefully the airshow will be the best yet.
There is so much info. on new cars that I feel somewhat empowered buying new (without a trade to complicate it). However, when it comes to buying a used car - I feel totally lost even with the info. you get from the various websites. (the prices are all way different depending on which website you look at) The bottom line is the local market has so much to do with what a specific used car is worth. I'm assuming dealerships make more off of used car inventory than new. Is this a fair assumption? Do the Edmunds trade in values come close to real life what a dealer pays for a used car? How do you not get taken to the cleaners buying a used car?
The difference between a used car and a new car, quite often, is that the used car is sold at a net profit. As opposed to a new car being sold at what??? I guess I don't follow you. I still wonder - is more money made by a dealer selling his used car inventory or the new car inventory? Also, how does one accurately determine market conditions in the are you live in? Any ideas?
The markup on used cars is generally much greater than on new cars. You here allover Edmunds about how people buy new cars for a few bucks over invoice.
National average NET profit on a new car is $(-250) or so.
Dealers make their $$ on used cars,parts and service. Example:
Local Toyota dealer is averaging $500 over invoice on new 4Runners.
They're making an average of $2,600 on used ones.
Post over in Real-World trade-in Values. Me and Terry can give ya an idea of whether or not youre getting a fair deal or not.
Jon, I'm not in the car business but a used car is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. So, the profits can vary greatly.
Car Dealers... I have a question. I sold my '99 Jeep Grand Cherokee Ltd. 4x4, Quadra Drive, all options including towing package,sunroof, leather etc. My Jeep had 35,000 miles (fully serviced by dealer)It was Platinum with Agate (dark grey) leather. The vehicle looked liked brand new. The tires looked great...at least 8-10K miles left on them. I sold it for $21,000 cash. Do you think that was good, average or too low?
Thanks, Mark
2010 Land Rover LR4, 2013 Honda CR-V, 2009 Bentley GTC, 1990 MB 500SL, 2001 MB S500, 2007 Lincoln TC, 1964 RR Silver Cloud III, 1995 MB E320 Cab., 2015 Prevost Liberty Coach
Jon as a consumer you should not worry about what you think is "fair."
It almost sound as though you feel as if car dealers have no right to run a buisness or make a profit.
As a consumer you should be much more worried about getting the best deal on a car.
Here is an example.
Dealer A has the car that you want, that they are willing to sell for $15,000. They over appraised it and own it for $13,500. So they are only making $1,500 on the car.
Dealer B has almost the same car, and they will sell it to you for $14,500, but they bought it cheap and only paid $10,000 for it, and are making $4,500 on the deal.
Would you rather pay $15,000 just so the dealer does not make as much money.
I am no longer the owner of a new car store (Thank GOD!) but Im a used car dealer/wholesaler.
Thing is, from my perspective, certain cars just seem to sell at a certain price.
Example: I can get around $15K all day long for low-mile 1995 Jaguar XJ6s (50-70K miles) And about $12,500 for 90-98K milers.
Now. I just bought the following two 1995 Jags, and sold them:
1) 1995 XJ6. 94,000 miles. Racing Green/Coffee. Very nice car. I paid $8,800 for it and sold it for $12,700. I got lucky buying that car.
2) 1995 XJ6. Kingfisher Blue/Cream. 91K miles. Again, real nice car, but I had to pay $10,200 for it and it sucked up $300 in recon. I sold it for $12,500 Both cars were "worth" the same $$, but both sold for wildly different prices wholesale. Therein lies the key. One I made just under $2,000 on, which is about where I average on cars like that. The other one was a $3,800 deal, which is better than what I normally make on them. Bill
I have a question concerning ordering a new vehicle from the factory rather than purchasing one already built.
With living so close to the Spartanburg, SC BMW factory(where the X5 is built), and looking to order an X5 rather than by a currently built one, I am in an advantagous position. I am about to send out a purchase request to every BMW dealer in the country for an 2002 X5 3.0i. Since I am doing all the work (researching, listing all options, picking up vehicle myself), I really don't even need a dealer, except to spend 5 minutes keying in my order on a computer screen. Therefore, I am only offering $500 over invoice for the vehicle, which seems like plenty of profit for 5 minutes of work. I wish that BMW had a web site to directly order the vehicle from the factory and skip the dealer 'middleman' entirely. Also, all correspondance can be handled via email, faxes or priorty mail. Also, the first dealer to respond will get my leasing business also (with $0 cap cost reduction).
Question: Do dealers have a maximum defined allotment of vehicles to sell for a quarter or year as specified by the manufacturer? If so, does ordering the vehicle from the factory remove an entry from this allotment? My concern is that the X5 is a hot vehicle right now and even though I just want to place a factory order, it would count against some pre-defined allotment for a dealer, which may prevent me from getting close to invoice.
$500 over invoice is, I doubt, possible. Although you never know. From what I know of the market on them here in Florida, no dealer in the state would take that deal. Ditto the NY City market, which, like the South Florida market, is highly competitive.
TMV on an X5 is over $3,500 over invoice, and while people can beat TMV, I doubt it can be beaten by over $3,000. In fact, TMV on this vehicle is MSRP.
I'd start with your local dealers first as well.
And I do believe that you physically can take delivery at the factory, but you still will have to buy the vehicle from a dealer.
As far as direct pricing goes.. Mercedes-Benz now owns most of the Mercedes Dealers in the UK and did so because they were discounting cars!
You want to buy a Mercedes in England? List price.
As far as availability, dealers are only allocated a certain number of cars, and that number is limited and finite. Even if your deal is quick and easy, there's no reason to sell an X5 for thousands below the going rate.
I've read a few times on this forum that new car sales are usually loss leaders for a dealership, and that the real money is in service and used car sales. Seems reasonable to me.
But how do you explain the stories you read here about people traveling 4-5 hours to pick up a new car they bought for close to invoice? I can see a local dealer taking the loss on a new car, because they might get the customer to come back in for service. But the non-local dealer has no chance to earn any of that new car net-loss back, since they will most likely never see the customer again. So why would a dealer choose to lose money by selling to a non-local customer?
........ All do respect, Bill is trying to save you a ton of time and embaresment.
I have owned 4 in 20 months, and those I had purchased at auction.. the dealers are allotted X amount, and winter is just about upon us ... I pay "all the money" for them .. So unless you want to be in that recliner for the next 2 yrs or so, waiting for a reply, you just need to step up about another $2,500 or so...
Closed a deal on a 99 9-3, 29K miles, loaded with lthr, moonroof, wood dash, "handshaker", in mint condition with Saab certified warranty, from local CT Saab dealer - paid $17.4K - probably $400 more than I should have paid but...
1) local dealer is great - have great service dept and lots of loaner cars (important for us saab owners....:{. 2) trade in was not great - $1200 for 91 volvo wagon (good body but had some major mechanical issues...:> 3) finally have a fun car to drive for my 80+ mile/day commute.
thanks all here for various input over the past months!
Thanks for the feeback. This is one of those things that drives me nuts about dealers. When they get a hot vehicle (like the X5), they basically make a huge profit for very little work (on a factory order pickup). I realize that this is rule number 1 of supply/demand, but I was hoping that the 'down' economy and the 'must meet quota' by year-end rules would apply this month. Besides, the only reason I'm considering the X5 is due to the very low money factor this month (.0019). I still think the X5 is way overpriced at almost $50,000 new (loaded 3.0i), but the fact is that the used X5's (2000, 2001) have had an unusually large number problems for a BMW, even taking into account it being a new model. Plus, I am in no hurry and there are plenty of other mid-size SUV's (RX300, MDX, Highlander) that fulfill my requirements.
I would much rather sell a car and deliver it myself than have someone want to pick it up in SC because it is a LOT more work for me with all the paperwork and phone calls to verify this and confirm that.
I think you may have a harder time now getting it at $500 over 'because' of the new lease rate. We sold all of our 3.0i's in the past two weeks because of this rate reduction, and NONE of those was discounted more than $500. But, like Bill said above, my area (NYC) is very competitive
.......Yep, as they should ... MB dealers sell 20/25/30 vehicles a month, and most other Dealers are selling 125/150/200++ vehicles a month depending on the product .... plus there not selling the Worlds best, that's a big difference.
When you said they make a huge profit for doing very little work ..... that kinda reminded me of another sales market ... Realtors, now there's a hard workin' breed.
Isn't it nice..? .. Isn't pretty..? and you can own this Darlin' for a lot less than you thought, a mear $475,000 -- and the whole time I'm thinkin' -- This guy is about to make $33 Grand, because someone is going to think -- Isn't it nice, Isn't it pretty, for 45 minures work. ... it gives me gas..!
rroyce: but the other side of the story is a realtor showing a couple 20 houses, mostly on Saturdays and Sundays, and then not getting a sale. Or working with someone for months and then the buyer can't get approved for a mortgage.
And most realtors work on $50k to $150k houses, not $500k ones. And the commission gets split four ways, so the person showing you the house gets 1/4 of the commission not all of it.
No, I'm not a realtor, but I am in the real estate business.
I went to one of the Boston U2 shows in June. Paid something like $40 for a ticket to be stuck in the very top row of the balcony, against the wall, and behind the stage! I can't believe what terrible luck we had with that concert.
Yes, it's off-topic. So, um, any car dealers have a comment on seeing U2 in Boston?
Yep. I paid something like $40 to see them in '92 at Foxboro. I was actually WAY up in the stands, sitting directly to the right of the stage. Still, it was a great show.
timadams: You have it right about real estate. And I'm not in the business, but I know people who are. I couldn't do it, just like I couldn't sell cars. Not enough patience, and I couldn't wet-nurse the buyers (and NON-buyers) the way a successful salesperson must.
Unfortunately, here in Chicago, you can't even buy a condo for under $150k any more. The majority of condos on the north side are like $200-400k, townhouses $300-500k, and the houses are, well, more. I guess I'm gonna rent indefinitely (OK, DEFINITELY until I win the lotto or get a sugardaddy).
While we're on the question of used car profits. MB dealers try to make about 10 grand on used vehicles. I know this because they're putting a 10G markup on a used car of a friend's. I was told that a manager working at the local MB makes about 250K a year. I don't know why he would be making that much because the salesguys seem to be doing all the selling, not him.
Thanks for the cliff notes lesson in economics. I any of us had unlimited financial resources, getting what we WANT is not a problem. But it boils down to even simpler economic terms. At .0019 money factor, 63% residual and up to $1000 over invoice, the X5 was in my price range. At MSRP (or close to MSRP) it is not.
So you have the inside scoop on MB dealers? Why don't you read some more before making a comment that's less than informative and frankly insulting to yourself?
Ug! My favorite whipping boy (or girl). One of the agency brokers (owner) in my town has his minions call my house every 2 weeks to see if we are interested in selling. As if maybe I hadn't thought of it until just that moment.
Usual caveats apply: Many are good and deserve their pay...but...
6% in these parts, in what is still a seller's market, is downright shamefull. The average sale price in a nearby town is $500k. Houses typically stay on the market for about 2 weeks. The half split of 30 grand for what amounts to paperwork and a few hours of effort is, in my humble opinion, highway robbery.
All of them have to pay their dues like sitting in a lousy house for weeks at a time. All the ones in this area have been wary because a few have been robbed, especially women, and one has been murdered.
Plus you have to share your fee with your company, maybe share with associates, etc. It's like selling anything. The ones who make a lot of money are the ones who work really hard at it.
Work 5 customers on a Saturday, 1 will buy. Or if we are really "the zone" that day 3 will buy. The national closing ratio is 20 percent or 1 out of 5. So we make a "killing" on one deal but spent plenty of time with the others that don't buy. It all averages out.
Comments
blevin@graphicsys.com
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The catalog lists it as a separate option, however edmunds, carsdirect & dealernet list the convenience as a requirement & I really don't want to spend the extra $.
The dealer will be finding the car elsewhere. As long as I have signed the contract (after getting loan details in writing?) I shouldn't give my down payment until I get the car - right? I've read so many scary things & this is my 1st purchase. Thanks.
As long as you are not hiding something, and you go over the details step by step ..it will be clear to both you, and the dealer.... you won't have any problems ....
Terry.
But anyway, I have never heard of that ... you should be paying tax on the sale price only -- This would be a Tax on a Tax.. and this would be on a "invisible" amount ....
Nope -- I don't think so, sounds like a little bit of "Creative Financing" too me..
Just because you are going "X" plan .. doesn't mean the dealer won't try to "F" you around...
Terry.
I guess that if things get ugly I'll have to talk to the manager and remind him that I work for the company whos employees give this dealer most of their business and that complaining to the HR department can get them erased from our internal document that lists area businesses who give preferential treatment to our employees.
Oh and BTW, being qualified for X-plan isn't that big of a deal. For $40 anybody can get X-plan.
Terry.
I think what Landru2 is referring to when he is talking about x-plan availability is through the EAA, but as of December 1 that loophole has been closed.
But define "being taken to cleaners" The difference between a used car and a new car, quite often, is that the used car is sold at a net profit.
Bill
As opposed to a new car being sold at what??? I guess I don't follow you. I still wonder - is more money made by a dealer selling his used car inventory or the new car inventory? Also, how does one accurately determine market conditions in the are you live in? Any ideas?
The markup on used cars is generally much greater than on new cars. You here allover Edmunds about how people buy new cars for a few bucks over invoice.
National average NET profit on a new car is $(-250) or so.
Dealers make their $$ on used cars,parts and service. Example:
Local Toyota dealer is averaging $500 over invoice on new 4Runners.
They're making an average of $2,600 on used ones.
Post over in Real-World trade-in Values. Me and Terry can give ya an idea of whether or not youre getting a fair deal or not.
Bill
Car Dealers... I have a question. I sold my '99 Jeep Grand Cherokee Ltd. 4x4, Quadra Drive, all options including towing package,sunroof, leather etc. My Jeep had 35,000 miles (fully serviced by dealer)It was Platinum with Agate (dark grey) leather. The vehicle looked liked brand new. The tires looked great...at least 8-10K miles left on them. I sold it for $21,000 cash. Do you think that was good, average or too low?
Thanks, Mark
It almost sound as though you feel as if car dealers have no right to run a buisness or make a profit.
As a consumer you should be much more worried about getting the best deal on a car.
Here is an example.
Dealer A has the car that you want, that they are willing to sell for $15,000. They over appraised it and own it for $13,500. So they are only making $1,500 on the car.
Dealer B has almost the same car, and they will sell it to you for $14,500, but they bought it cheap and only paid $10,000 for it, and are making $4,500 on the deal.
Would you rather pay $15,000 just so the dealer does not make as much money.
I am no longer the owner of a new car store (Thank GOD!) but Im a used car dealer/wholesaler.
Thing is, from my perspective, certain cars just seem to sell at a certain price.
Example: I can get around $15K all day long for low-mile 1995 Jaguar XJ6s (50-70K miles) And about $12,500 for 90-98K milers.
Now. I just bought the following two 1995 Jags, and sold them:
1) 1995 XJ6. 94,000 miles. Racing Green/Coffee. Very nice car. I paid $8,800 for it and sold it for $12,700. I got lucky buying that car.
2) 1995 XJ6. Kingfisher Blue/Cream. 91K miles. Again, real nice car, but I had to pay $10,200 for it and it sucked up $300 in recon. I sold it for $12,500
Both cars were "worth" the same $$, but both sold for wildly different prices wholesale.
Therein lies the key. One I made just under $2,000 on, which is about where I average on cars like that. The other one was a $3,800 deal, which is better than what I normally make on them.
Bill
They're doing like $18,500 or so across the block if theyre really nice..
You did well
Bill
I have a question concerning ordering a new vehicle from the factory rather than purchasing one already built.
With living so close to the Spartanburg, SC BMW factory(where the X5 is built), and looking to order an X5 rather than by a currently built one, I am in an advantagous position. I am about to send out a purchase request to every BMW dealer in the country for an 2002 X5 3.0i. Since I am doing all the work (researching, listing all options, picking up vehicle myself), I really don't even need a dealer, except to spend 5 minutes keying in my order on a computer screen. Therefore, I am only offering $500 over invoice for the vehicle, which seems like plenty of profit for 5 minutes of work. I wish that BMW had a web site to directly order the vehicle from the factory and skip the dealer 'middleman' entirely. Also, all correspondance can be handled via email, faxes or priorty mail. Also, the first dealer to respond will get my leasing business also (with $0 cap cost reduction).
Question: Do dealers have a maximum defined allotment of vehicles to sell for a quarter or year as specified by the manufacturer? If so, does ordering the vehicle from the factory remove an entry from this allotment? My concern is that the X5 is a hot vehicle right now and even though I just want to place a factory order, it would count against some pre-defined allotment for a dealer, which may prevent me from getting close to invoice.
$500 over invoice is, I doubt, possible. Although you never know. From what I know of the market on them here in Florida, no dealer in the state would take that deal. Ditto the NY City market, which, like the South Florida market, is highly competitive.
TMV on an X5 is over $3,500 over invoice, and while people can beat TMV, I doubt it can be beaten by over $3,000. In fact, TMV on this vehicle is MSRP.
I'd start with your local dealers first as well.
And I do believe that you physically can take delivery at the factory, but you still will have to buy the vehicle from a dealer.
As far as direct pricing goes.. Mercedes-Benz now owns most of the Mercedes Dealers in the UK and did so because they were discounting cars!
You want to buy a Mercedes in England? List price.
As far as availability, dealers are only allocated a certain number of cars, and that number is limited and finite. Even if your deal is quick and easy, there's no reason to sell an X5 for thousands below the going rate.
Bill
But how do you explain the stories you read here about people traveling 4-5 hours to pick up a new car they bought for close to invoice? I can see a local dealer taking the loss on a new car, because they might get the customer to come back in for service. But the non-local dealer has no chance to earn any of that new car net-loss back, since they will most likely never see the customer again. So why would a dealer choose to lose money by selling to a non-local customer?
I never used to do it.
Bill
If a dealer and posted a profit like that everyone on edmunds would be calling me a crook and thief...so you did great!!!!
p.s. and your not a thief..hahah
Rich
I have owned 4 in 20 months, and those I had purchased at auction.. the dealers are allotted X amount, and winter is just about upon us ... I pay "all the money" for them .. So unless you want to be in that recliner for the next 2 yrs or so, waiting for a reply, you just need to step up about another $2,500 or so...
Good Luck ...
Terry.
1) local dealer is great - have great service dept and lots of loaner cars (important for us saab owners....:{.
2) trade in was not great - $1200 for 91 volvo wagon (good body but had some major mechanical issues...:>
3) finally have a fun car to drive for my 80+ mile/day commute.
thanks all here for various input over the past months!
I think you may have a harder time now getting it at $500 over 'because' of the new lease rate. We sold all of our 3.0i's in the past two weeks because of this rate reduction, and NONE of those was discounted more than $500. But, like Bill said above, my area (NYC) is very competitive
Good Luck!
Terry.
When you said they make a huge profit for doing very little work ..... that kinda reminded me of another sales market ... Realtors, now there's a hard workin' breed.
Isn't it nice..? .. Isn't pretty..? and you can own this Darlin' for a lot less than you thought, a mear $475,000 -- and the whole time I'm thinkin' -- This guy is about to make $33 Grand, because someone is going to think -- Isn't it nice, Isn't it pretty, for 45 minures work. ... it gives me gas..!
Terry.
Supply and Demand. To me, a retailer puts an item on sale (Discounts it) when supply exceeds demand in order to increase demand.
At $32,0000, you might not want a new Grand Cherokee Limited. At $26,500 you might.
Look at a Stainless Steel Rolex Daytona. Over "MSRP" all day long. Maket on them is still like $7,000.
Demand grossly outstrips supply.
Same with Bruce Springsteen tickets in New Jersey, The new Thunderbird, or tons of other goods.
Want to get cheap tickets to see a Country Music Band? GO see them in NY City instead of Birmingham, Alabama.
Want to see Springsteen cheap? St Louis, MO.
I'd worry a lot less about the "deal" and buy what you LIKE. I can't see the logic in buying another vehicle because you got more of a discount on it.
That's silly
If it helps, the X5 has outstanding resale value. Since you're leasing it, you may find that the payments on it are less than some competing vehicles.
Even so, market is market. Work on getting a good deal on what you buy, but buy what you like.
PS, X5 is one sweet ride. Terry, dont you have a 4.4i?
Bill
And most realtors work on $50k to $150k houses, not $500k ones. And the commission gets split four ways, so the person showing you the house gets 1/4 of the commission not all of it.
No, I'm not a realtor, but I am in the real estate business.
Yes, it's off-topic. So, um, any car dealers have a comment on seeing U2 in Boston?
I couldn't do it, just like I couldn't sell cars. Not enough patience, and I couldn't wet-nurse the buyers (and NON-buyers) the way a successful salesperson must.
Usual caveats apply: Many are good and deserve their pay...but...
6% in these parts, in what is still a seller's market, is downright shamefull. The average sale price in a nearby town is $500k. Houses typically stay on the market for about 2 weeks. The half split of 30 grand for what amounts to paperwork and a few hours of effort is, in my humble opinion, highway robbery.
My mother works for Weichert! She has a lotof other interests,but is still an agent.
God.. I cant think of how many 10pm phone calls at the house.. Out showing houses every sunday,., Hours on the phone..etc..
The good ones really do work 60-70+Hours a week. ANd for every easy Million dollar sale, there's the one you pend weeks onthat falls apart.
Not as easy as it looks really.
Bill
Plus you have to share your fee with your company, maybe share with associates, etc. It's like selling anything. The ones who make a lot of money are the ones who work really hard at it.
: )
Mackabee