Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

CarMan@Edmunds

Hi everyone. This discussion is quickly travelling in the wrong direction. Let's please try to stick to talking about the old bait and switch without any of the questionable references. Thanks.

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jspry

Well, I've gotten no where with the dealership, though I did express my concern over the fact that I called in two days ago and asked about the truck I originally wanted to purchase and was told it's still there, by the same guy who told me to my face that he didn't have it and sold me another one. And the fact that I was sold a car with siginificant cosmetic blemishes and not told about them. (Yes, I realize I shouldn't have gone at night...)

Anyways, I am going to trade the car. I will take a significant financial hit on it, but I am just not happy. At least now I know.

jasmith52

I would suggest that you consult with a body shop about how much the paintwork to your RX300 would cost.

You liked the vehicle at one time, maybe you are over-reacting. A good body shop should be able to fix it to your satisfaction.

With respect to the engine light I suggest that you consult a mechanic.

The bottom line is that you may be paying much more to trade your vehicle than it would cost you to bring it up to a standard that is acceptable to you.

rivertown

Thanks for the update.

I'd find it tough to be happy with the car after all this, too. What a bent Bentley dealer! Sheesh.

Good luck.

qbrozen

trading it? take some other folks' advice. Get it checked out. See what it would take to fix the scratches and have a mechanic look over the car. Isn't that still under factory warranty? I don't know Lexus. What is their powertrain warranty? I'm assuming something like 5yr/60k miles. Better to invest a little time in this vehicle finding out if its a true problem than losing thousands by trading it now.

bobst

Remember the Sermon on the Mount? He said, "If they eye offend thee, pluck it out".

It is obvious that the car offends you. I say, pluck it out. Get rid of it. Trade it in, give it to the salvation Army, deep-six it, leave it in a bad neighborhood with the door unlocked and the key on the front seat, whatever.

abtseller

condone committing a felony over a few paint scratches. LOL...where's the hidden cameras? Surely we're on one of those cable shows.



Ed

jspry

Well, didn't expect it to cost me $9000 to trade the vehicle in, so there goes that idea. I brought it to a few body shops and the lowest quote I received was $500 to fix both the interior and exterior flaws, which really stinks considering I just bought the car, but much less expensive than trading it off ...

jasmith52

jspry -

In my book $500 is less than $9000. So in my book it's a no brainer what you should do.

Here's a thought. If you haven't irritated the sales manager too much where you bought the car, perhaps you can arrange with them to have the body/interior work done at the dealers (wholesale) rate. I'll bet they could arrange this and maybe you could have it done for $200 or so.

It's worth a try !

rivertown

jspry

$500 isn't bad. What did you find out about that engine/service required light?

jspry

Actually, that was one my resolutions in the first place, I said I would be willing to pay for it if they could get a reduced rate at a place they work with. I was told they don't know anyone who can fix those things.

jasmith52

In my opinion they blew you off. One more reason to deal with people as you wish to be treated, even if you felt that you were treated unfairly.

Every dealership that sells used (or even new) cars needs paintwork/interior work done on some of their cars. They must either have a body shop or have access to one. I assure you that the rate they pay is less than what the public pays for paintwork.

jspry

Soooooooo ...my brakes started grinding 3 days ago, took it in to a service place and sure enough, the brake pads were worn down so far they had gouged the rotors (it's nice to have expensive repairs a month after you buy a vehicle.) ...then I said "hey can you check the driveline for me? Tell me if it's 2WD or AWD" "it's 2WD" well, as you may have guessed, I paid more for this vehicle because I was told it was AWD. There were other 2WD models on the lot but I wanted the AWD so apparently I paid more for nothing. Is there something I can do about THAT at least? I asked twice if this vehicle was AWD and was told yes. I would imagine that *HAS* to be illegal???

Please advise!

rivertown

I think, once again, you're stuck, Jspry.

It's not that the verbal misrepresentation is legal; it's that it's impossible to prove.

kbui

Check your sales contract to see if it says AWD. If it does, run to the nearest lawyer.

However, considering this dealer's behavior, I wouldn't be surprised if he left the sales contract vague, on purpose. In that case, as Rivertown said in the previous post, you're stuck.

bobst

With all of the lessons you have learned so far, you have the good fortune to learn one more. You should have looked under the vehicle to see if it was 4wd before you bought it.

When you asked if it was AWD, the salesman probably said "Yep" as he was thinking to himself, "It has all four wheels and it drives down the road, so it qualifies as AWD in my book".

zueslewis

and car people/experienced consumers here on Edmunds always preach is before buying a used vehicle, run a CARFAX, get the warranty history if you can, and take it to your mechanic for a once over.

The CARFAX, warranty history and mechanic would have all told you it was not AWD - for about $75 total investment.....

div2

There's an old aviation saying which states: "If you don't know, don't go." You weren't familiar with the car you wanted and the deal just sounded too good to pass up. As Zues noted, a bit of research and inspection would have saved you a ton of aggravation. File this Life Lesson under: "Do Your Homework".

leadfoot4

You took the words right out of my mouth......

isellhondas

Lost a sale a couple of years ago on a CRV. When the customer called me to tell me she had bought elsewhere for a LOT less money I knew something was wrong.

Sure enough, she had bought a 2WD one!

" I thought they were ALL four wheel drive!"

vikd

...check the sticker and/or the sales contract. If either one of them indicate or represent the veh as AWD, or do not specifically say 2WD, call your atty and start your research for a new veh. Bait and switch is one thing, but mis-representing a DRIVETRAIN hits way below the belt!

Regards... Vikd

rroyce10

..... "If you don't know, don't go." ...

           I never heard that one before .. I like it.! - can I use it .?

           Anyway .. if it's on the contract, then you won't have a problem, the dealer will re-write the contract or get you a new one - or, you can just take it back - dealers don't like all the brain damage, so this can be resolved very easily ~~ Now if it's not in writing, then you are an owner.

                    Terry.

div2

I picked it up from a column in an old issue of FLYING Magazine. It was a first-person story from a WW II bomber pilot who decided to try out an A-36 that had made a forced landing at his field. Unaware of the flight characteristics of the A-36, the pilot almost ripped the tail off trying some aerobatics. He made reference to the phrase I quoted.

jspry

It says RX300 on the paperwork. It doesn't even say "Lexus" ...maybe it's really an old reworked K car or something and they just stuck the logos on. ha!

I have certainly learned how car buying works. I knew there were 2WD versions out there, which is why I asked, I never expected to be blatantly lied to...

My question to Vikd's post, if it doesn't specifically say 2WD on it, do I have anything to stand on?

rivertown

That's the error, now corrected.

I think you're simply stuck.

bigorange30

you have to EXPECT it even if there are many out there that won't lie to you. It just happens to much to not expect it.

masspector

Congratulations, welcome to the club of inconsiderate, grinder buyers now. And the sales guys wonder how this happens. So next time you go to buy a car you will expect to be lied to, and will probably warrant a post in inconsiderate buyers thread because you are trying to stand up for yourself.

Seriously, I would take your paperwork to a contract lawyer and see what they say. You may not have a leg to stand on, but you never know (I am not a lawyer and I do not even play one on TV).

Geesh, and all this from a Bentley dealer? I would hate to see the domestic dealers in your area.

rivertown

Bentley class didn't rub off on this salesman?
Might as well try to shine a brick sometimes.

thel

looks like a sure road to a miserable existence. I personally believe that my fellow man is fundamentally good. That said, humans tend to be weak at times as well. Whether that be weak of mind (dumb, stupid, etc.) or weak of soul (liar, theif, etc.) varies from person to person (not profession to profession!).

All you need to do is make sure that there were no mistakes made when you buy a car. Given the magnitude of the purchase, this should be a no-brainer. The last car I bought (2002 Miata) I knew everything about the car before I even set foot in the dealership (thank you Mazdausa.com). That includes options, color, trim level, VIN (not VIN#).

tincup47

Making sure you know the info on the car you are looking at buying is even more important if you are buying a used vehicle from a dealer who does not sell that brand. As difficult as it is for salespeople to know all the technical differences of the models they carry, it is next to impossible for them to know every brand on the market. Since Bentley doesn't even sell a competing vehicle to the RX300, I find it a bit of a stretch to think that they would (or should)know the details on this vehicle. The salesman might have assumed the same as the buyer did that all RX300's were AWD. With all the vehicles from all the different manufacturers that can land in a used car lot, it is even more important to do your own research. There is no way that dealership personnel can know about every vehicle sold in the US, and since they may see these vehicles very seldom, there really is no reason for the average salesman to put that much time and effort into learning all the details.

zueslewis

rroyce10

..... Bingo ..! but I bet they could tell you who won the last 5 PGA tours .l.o.l..

                Terry ;-)

thel

ignorance is no excuse for lousy treatment after the sale. If the buyer actually thought they were getting an AWD and the dealer actually didn't know it was 2WD but sold it anyway, assuming the car wasn't trashed after purchase, it seems to me that the deal should have been undone. And buyer and dealer part ways amicably.

Instead, it appears that the Bentley dealer told the buyer to buzz off and that it was not the dealership's problem that the buyer was too stupid to make sure that it was AWD before delivery. While I acknowledge that the dealer has the right to do this, it does not make the dealer's behavior right.

rivertown

I'm sure the dealer was honestly mistaken and will rectify the error at his earliest opportunity - early in 2010.

drdrevans

Good heavens, these guys sell $200,000 cars. How can they possibly be this sleazy?

I'm scared. I've had a LOT of perfectly decent experiences with car dealers (particularly since I moved out of L.A., which had many many sleazy dealers), but this one sounds pretty bad. Jspry, take heart in the fact that it will never happen to you again, if you're careful (which you should have been already...but hey, it's nice to think you can trust people, particularly those selling those $200,000 cars).

Good luck.

thel

I also suspect that the dealer knew the car was a 2WD and were relieved to have a real dog off the lot. However, since we don't know this to be the case, we can not simply assume the worst.

rivertown

I agree, Thel.

I also agree that it's unrealistic, although reasonable in other contexts, to expect the salesman to know his stock, to seek an answer rather than to give one when he doesn't know, and to own and correct his error.

tincup47

I was not attempting to defend the dealer's reported mistreatment of the customer (which we only have heard one side of the story, it could be far different than what we have been told). I was trying pass on that it is unrealistic to expect a salesperson from knowing all the information on every vehicle sold. I was attempting to point out that in the real world that you should know what you are buying before you take delivery. If you don't take the effort to make sure you are buying what you want, who's fault is it really if you don't get it? There isn't an Encyclopedia of Automobiles that the dealerships have that have all the facts and figures on every auto made. Could the salesman have found out? Possibly, but there is no master list of vehicle VINs that breaks out every manufacturer's information, and he would not have had access to the manufacturer's sales literature or technical information. While site's like Edmunds let you know that there are both 2wd and awd RX300s, they really don't tell you how to tell whether any particular one is equipped with awd or not.

vikd

...are you trying to tell me that the ucm didnt know or care what the friggin drive train on this veh was when he bought it from either auction or private party? Dont you think that that would have a significant impact on what was offered for it or what it was purchased for? While I agree that a Bentley dealer would probably not know, off hand, what the option packages on a Ford Crown Vic etc... are, I'm pretty darned sure they make it their business to know what the drive train on a suv is especially as the difference between awd and 2wd can be pretty significant $$'s. This is just too much bs to swallow; they guy was lied to...period! At the very least, the sales guy was overly UN-forthcoming regarding this veh...

Regards... Vikd

tincup47

I only know if I wanted a used four wheel drive vehicle, I would check it out for myself and not take someone else's word for it, especially if the dealer didn't sell that brand of vehicles. I would also have it written on the purchase order that the vehicle was so equipped if I wasn't sure. Verbal representations aren't worth the paper they are printed on if there is a problem later. Once again I am not defending any actions from the dealer, just trying to give some advice to others about the issues of buying used vehicles from dealers who do not carry the brand you are buying.

leadfoot4

Jspry??...You know, the person who started this discussion.....

vikd

...fair enough and I agree with that. It's just that someone at that dealership, or representing that dealership, had to acquire that veh somehow.

If there are two things I've learned from the various car biz folks in TH they are:

1) Dealer principles have an ungodly amount of money invested in these vehicles/dealerships and spend a fortune on their flooring etc... and want/need to do everything possible to recoup some of that investment, and

2) UCM's, or anybody else who otherwise purchases vehicles or valuates trades for the dealership, are pretty darned good at what they do and a prospective buyer trading in their 2wd suv would have a VERY hard time passing it off as an AWD. Ergo... this dealership knew exactly what kind of drivetrain this suv had, but just didnt bother to divulge it. I say shame on both parties here for not laying all the cards on the table or bothering to understand if they were a simple 2 of a kind or a straight flush...

Regards... Vikd

sonjaab

Where do you live? Doesn't your state have yearly vehicle inspections? Was your vehicle inspected by that dealer? If so that dealer messed up big time. I would threaten with turning them in to the state ! If they did that here in NY they would be in BIG trouble!

jspry

I specifically asked the salesguy to see an AWD Lexus RX300. He told me that they had a lot of AWD ones, or if I wanted, I could look at a 2WD they had on the lot because it would be less expensive. I explicitly stated I wanted an AWD. "No problem" was his reply "I have one that I think you're really going to like." He even commented about how the AWD would be better through the Chicago winters.

Now if he's as ignorant about his own inventory as someone suggested, how would he have known all of that? My latest conversation with him about this was that "Well, I believe the AWD is only an 80/20 split anyways, so I don't know why it's such a big deal." "Because the price point is lower on the 2WD." "Well, I'd imagine you don't plan on selling it right away anyways."

Now, I'm sorry, but I fail to see how WHEN I plan on unloading this vehicle has anything to do with paying for something I didn't get. It's still going to have a lower trade-in value than the AWD.

I was also told this was a local vehicle, which I later found out [from carfax] was not... it was also a corporate lease vehicle, of which I was told it was a 1 owner vehicle. (Not sure if I posted all that before.)

Yes, I know now that I should get an inspection and Carfax first, but I had such a great experience when I purchased my new Audi a couple years ago, I didn't think I would have to go through everything with a fine-toothed comb in order to not be completely screwed over. Unfortunately, I've always believed someone wouldn't blatantly lie to my face in order to take my money...

sonjaab - I'm in Illinois

thel

..."but I had such a great experience when I purchased my new Audi a couple years ago"

There in lies (no pun intended lol) the difference. This is also one of the main reasons I don't think I'll ever buy a used car again. Even the reputable dealers here abouts have some cars with rather dubious histories. The key is, as you stated, to get the carfax report before you buy. I was able to cull many a car during my search just by using car fax.

CarMan@Edmunds

jspry

fezo

Having experienced both decent sales people and scoundrels I go in nowadays as armed with information as I can be and also with a pleasant attitude. The minute they lie to me or start tricks ("let me run your credit card to show you're serious," "oh, you're robbing me blind") I'm gone.

I don't doubt you got lied to. I do doubt there's anything you can do about it. I don't know if you ever succeeded in going up the chain of command at the dealership or actually talked to the owner but my take is you're screwed this time. Bite the bullet and learn an expensive lesson.

You're not the first and you won't be the last.

genegoddess

Pie in the sky, yes, I know...

A local dealer near me has been advertising, for at least 3 weeks, a used car (a Subaru at a Toyota dealership) for about $5K below Edmunds and KBB value. One of those "too good to be true" ads. I understand about loss leaders (one cheap car to get you in, steer towards more expensive) since I've had family members buy the LLs. However, I first called on this used car 3 weeks ago and was told "Oh, so sorry, we sold it yesterday! But let us know if we can help you otherwise." No thanks, but I'll keep you in mind. About 10 days later, my dad (who knows I'm the the market) emails me to tell me about this "great deal". Low and behold: the SAME car was being advertised twice in the same place (traderonline.com) for two different prices (same stock and VIN, though). Curious, I called and they said "Oh, sure, it's here! Come on by!" It's 5min away, so I drop by. Look around: no car. So, I ask a salesperson, who tells me that, "Sorry, we sold it yesterday." I told them that false advertising was illegal (very politely, of course) and they looked at me blankly. So, I started following this car. Well, three weeks have passed since I first called on it, and it is STILL being advertised (same VIN, same stock #, same photo!) on at least two classified websites (local paper and autotrader.com) as well as on their personal website.

Isn't it illegal to advertise something that you don't have in stock (wonder if they ever had it!)? I know this is a common practice, but I wish that this dealer (and others involved in B&S) could be "punished" for their practices. Obviously, I could call the BBB, but I haven't been monetarily hurt (since I didn't buy anything) other than 5mi of gas and 15min of my time. Any suggestions as to how to stop car dealerships from doing this? One person may not be able to do much, but every little bit helps!

zueslewis

the details (not too many details, they'll quit reading after a while). Also contact your state's AG office. A couple of quick letters may do some good.

At the very least, drop into one of their competitors and drop a dime on the bad dealer - the grapevine will go into effect and have better results.