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Comments
There are those who feel the contrary -- that the new model will have all of the old model's shortcomings engineered out. Granted, the new model may bring a plethora of first year bugs.
Generally speaking, with experience as my only guide -- and my personal experience at that -- I generally enjoy a particular model's run AFTER the first year.
My 2000, 2001 and now 2003 A6 based vehicles were apparently much better put together than my friend's 1998 A6 (seemed to be).
The High Output with ONLY a tiptronic?!? Now, my dealer said the 265 HP 2.7T would be "all of them from a certain manufacture date forward" -- and he still shows a 2.7T A6 can be had with a 6spd manual and can, be ordered NOW from Germany. I think he said he could probably order one throuh March or April of 2004 and get in on the production run of 04 models.
OK OK, maybe he or I am wrong -- it could happen.
If you order the car, you get what you order.
I have a 1998 C230 with just shy of 160,000 km's (100K-miles)on the odo. If I were to trade the car in, I would probably be at a trade value of about $18,000. I paid $42,000cdn for the car six years ago. So, my depreciation expense for the six years I've owned the car is $24,000. With 1994 examples selling for $14-15K it seems that my depreciation curve is levelling out. Does it make financial sense to sell it? What about out-of-warranty repairs? Hhhmmm.
Suppose I buy a new 2004 C240. I'm looking at $45K again, and in five or six years the car will be worth $20K. It's going to cost me (in REAL money) $25,000 over the next five years for depreciation on the new car, plus the costs of operating. New or old, they need fluids, filters, etc. Plus, the new car will be more expensive to insure.
What is I take that $25,000 depreciation expense and put half of it in a fund for repairing the C230? Think I'll spend $12,500 over the next five years in non-maintenance repairs? Not a chance. This is my sixth MB, and I've driven several to over 300K. Not even the worst one required more $2000 a year. $1500 a year was a pretty good budget. For five years that's $7500.
What about the cost of money? Even if you're paying cash, you have the opportunity cost of tying up your dollars in the car. The cost of carrying that $45K for 5 years at 7.5% is ~$9000. The cost of carrying the $18,000 "investment" in my existing car is $3,600.
The total cost for buying the new car is $25,000+$9,060=$34,060
The total cost for keeping my existing car is
$7,500 (repairs) + $3,000 (deprciation) + $3,600 (interest charge) = $14,100.
That leaves me $20K in the bank in case something really goes wrong with the car. It NEVER makes finaincial sense to buy a new car. Warranty coverage is not a money saver. So, why on earth, in December of 1997 did I buy a new Mercedes? Not to save money! Just because I wanted a brand new car. I knew it was going to cost buckets of money, but went ahead anyway. Not every decision in your lives has to be the "right" one.
But, don't try to justify a new car with the 'ol "warranty coverage will save me money" argument.
I have to agree, moreover, with your statement that buying a car makes little financial sense. Leasing a car and buying "Real Estate" is the appropriate thing to do so says my CPA who's phrase "rent what depreciates and buy what appreciates" rings true and most would agree with it.
However, many people buy cars and live in rented housing.
Go figure.
For me, my life, my tastes, I like young cars with warranties -- I cannot be reasoned with finacially in this regard. Even if proven techically wrong, I like less than 3 year old cars and thus far it has worked for me in all ways -- financially and "the joy of driving" to be specific.
Your milage may differ.
One last point. Leasing schmeasing. If you buy or lease you pay the depreciation no matter what. Now if by leasing you gain some tax advantage or reduced cost of money or you can make a greater return than the cost of the money then leasing can be argued.
It's always best to be sure credit is given to a source. Quoting messages here in the Town Hall couldn't be easier using that method.
Nice to have it laid out so clearly, as it was in the MB example you cited.
Bottom line is that owning a car past 100K miles requires a vehicle that requires "only" $2-3K per year (or less, one hopes) in maintenance and doesn't require lots of down time & trips to the dealer. Your MB example implies that such is the case for that brand. Others don't appear to meet that standard.
BTW I think that Audi has made great strides in improving the solidity of the A4 with the latest B6 chassis.
If the person who bought the car wants immediate cash, he/she can immediately sell the car or buy it from himself by getting a loan on it; or, for maximum cash (possibly) sell the car more slowly trading time for "immediate" cash -- if the time is not too great the relentless march of time as it relates to depreciation will not be as much of an issue.
It is a matter of choices -- it is, presumably, better to buy a car with 100% down at the moment of delivery. Yet, who among us would pay 100% cash for a new car when the same car, so advertised, is 48 months @ 0% interest?
Now, these deals are -- hopefully -- soon to be history as our economy's (again, hopefully)rebound sticks -- this time.
In the future with less attractive interest rates, leasing may again increase in popularity.
Paying cash, theoretically, may return also as the only alternative to leasing that can be financially justified for many under such circumstances of higher interest rates.
Who knows?
For me, same as it ever was, same as it ever was -- my current lease is 35% less than my former lease and the car is "only" 10% less expensive. So, even as a person who has chosen to lease, I have been able to benefit from lower "money factors."
As much as I like my 20,000 mile old 2003 Audi, I cannot see keeping it beyond 49,000 miles unless I can get the warm and fuzzy feeling about an extended Audi-sponsored protection plan.
But -- you know, that S4 is sooooo tempting. . . .
So many cars, so little time.
Let me further clarify and illuminate: my 1997 A8 went through several sets of rotors, but I don’t remember it being every 15 minutes as it appeared to be on my most recent A6’s; my 1999 A6 2.8, I kept for 6 months while I waited for my 2000 A6 4.2 to arrive. My wife’s 3 TT’s have NEVER had any brake problems, nor did her multiple A4 2.8’s have any issues that apparently “feel” like warped rotors.
The brakes on my 00 and 01 A6’s were their worst features, I was always taken care of by Audi and as I posted on this board many times, I did not consider the problem anything other than an annoyance – but, I remind you that I also kept taking it back time after time after time for new rotors (on their nickel). I would be panicked if I had to buy rotors every few thousand miles without the Audi advantage. My service advisor told me the 2.7T, 4.2 and S4 of certain years had “issues.” I cannot comment if 2002’s cured the problems, but apparently by 2003 they were OK.
I wonder if your dealer has checked the caliper alignment carefully to make sure your pads aren't pulling the disk out of line when pressure is applied; it can cause a hot disk to warp. I suspect there's more to your problem than the rotors themselves.
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm
Your warranty will be from that point forward 24 months or to 100k miles whichere arrives first. Maint is not included but anything that breaks (and therefore is expensive) is covered by Audi.
If you want to keep the car this long, this is at least a reasonable way to proceed, IMHO.
Of course, for my wife and me, the Audi Loyalty program almost always seems to offer some deal that either lessens the upfront cash, buys out the lease early or provides other incentives that (among other things) keeps us buying and rebuying new Audis. We've had over two dozen since 1978 and yesterday test drove the 6spd S4 (my wife's first time behind the wheel of this car) -- even though we're only 14 months into a 36 month lease on two 2003 Audis.
I don't know the [your] circumstances obviously and I cannot comment on the dealer -- but over the past several years Audi financial has been "bery bery good to us!"
" Light inputs to the throttle often result in unexpectedly quick starts. This can be disconcerting in stop-and-go traffic and parking lots — not to mention irritating to passengers who are convinced you're just an incurable speed demon or no better a driver than Homer behind the controls of Springfield's own monorail. The accelerator is also difficult to modulate. When accelerating by applying a constant amount of pressure, the vehicle doesn't move ahead to a set speed but instead continually speeds up even though no additional pressure is being applied to the pedal. It's almost like a slingshot the way the Touareg quickly builds speed --"
Must be the same drive by wire system.
I have one other related issue that occurs about once a month. It only happens when quickly stopping at a stop sign and then wanting to quickly move into an opening in traffic. Releasing the brake and stepping on the gas results in the car very slowly creeping forward instead of the usual rapid acceleration. It is very frightening and dangerous as the oncoming traffic approaches. I have learned to jam the pedal to the floor when this happens and the car will then take off. I spoke to the service advisor about this and he says it is because the brakes don't release the gas pedal to go quickly enough. Says there is no fix. Anyone else have this problem and is there a fix?
Thanks
Got a loaner A4 3.0 quattro tip last week -- tip lag was dreadful. The tip always seems to be one gear higher than I wanted it -- or that felt appropriate. Or under some circumstances the car just lurches forward -- in "S" mode this was greatly mitigated.
Drove for the second time the new Audi generation manual transmission in an 04 S4 on Sunday. Better even than a BMW -- finally. Can't for the life of me understand whatsssssupppp with the 5spd tip. I keep hopingin the 6spd tip has had the dreaded tip lag completely exorcised.
I found the tip mode in the A6 4.2 (and the A8, for that matter) to be unrewarding since it shifted out of first gear before 3mph unless you really goosed the accelerator.
The transmission in the Audi is, based on my friend's Bimmer, no better or worse than what must pass for standard normal manumatic German programming. In any case in any gate other than "S" the thing was herky-jerky, unpredictable and provided so little control as to render it potentially dangerous. As noted above a full stop followed by an immediate depress of the accelerator, but not to the floor, would once rocket off, then next time would act as if it were attempting to start from second gear, which was way below its effective torque.
The CVT, which I have now twice driven, is eerily smooth and seems to have no problems that I could find, other than the fact that it was connected to an underpowered engine (an A6 3.0 FWD CVT seems, liesurely able to accelerate, even though overall the CVT effect is quite pleasant -- almost turbine like.)
IIRC Herr B. Pischetsrieder is quoted in the new CAR as saying the DSG will eventually be in 80% of Volkswagens (I'm guessing an even higher %-age for Audis).
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
AS I recall, though this was a 6spd, S mode equipped tiptronic. Perhaps that extra gear is all that it takes.
The 2002 S6 seemed to be programmed differently and it, too, would be as fine as wine. My buddy just drove the RS 6 and said that it was a "real time" transmission. Perhaps this was the programming, perhaps to compensate for the torque of the turbno 4.2, "something" is different, but he swears the thing was "live from New York!" (IT's Saturday Night!)
We only drove (for the second time) the 6spd man S4 since my wife refuses to even get behind the wheel of an automatic. I'll have to go back someday when she's not with me and try the tip S4.
Today, I arrived so late to the Audi dealer I had to use an Enterprise rental which is a 2003 Taurus -- the car is nothing to write home about, but there is no lag in the transmission.
The rest of the car is clunky, sloppy and like driving a sofa, but the tranny seems just fine -- perhaps it is just so simple that it appears to be real time instead of lag time.
I'd to keep this car for the long haul but am not eager to find out about post-warranty maintenance first hand. The minor problems I've had with this car are not enough to discourage me from another Audi.
So ... besides deciding if this is a good time I could revisit the leasing alternative. I'd never be able to stay within mileage limits, though. This car is too much fun to drive.
I know they drive like a dream and appear to built with top notch quality.....but there is a word that is absent in Audi's vocabulary...RELIABILITY......
Learn more about my $41,000 LEMON and headache by reading my post in the Problem and Solution posting.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
BTW - 2002 A6 2.7T, 12,000 miles, so far total repairs, maintenace (anything but gas) = $0.00
Too bad a few bad experiences by a few owners get passed off as the norm.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Almost 42K miles, not a scratch on it, even after the road trip! A couple minor problems solved by a great dealer's service department. One repair in conjunction with a regularly scheduled service interval. One unplanned trip to service -- scheduled around the availability of a loaner.
BTW - I'm still searching for the perfect auto.
Audi, in this light, has done a pretty good job of holding the price increases to a minimum. Moreover, those of us who lease have been able to benefit from generous "out early" programs and due to the money factor, lower payments.
My 03 Audi is "more better" than my 01 -- and to keep things in perspective, I went from a 2001 A6 4.2 sport with all possible options to a 2003 allroad 2.7T 6spd manual with all possible options and then some US options (full paint, wheels, tires, suspension mods) -- the 03 is nicer and better (to my tastes) in every way than the 01 that it replaced.
And the lease payment is way less but the acquisition costs were pretty close to each other.
Wait until the dollar comes back (and it will eventually) -- the prices will seem to drop, or at least they should.
For those, like myself, who left on the early side, the commute in was only a bit longer than normal. For others a normal 45-50 minute ride became 3 1/2 to 4 hours. The reason - ice!!
Traffic was light when I left. There were cars on the road slipping and sliding up and down the hills, though mostly in single file. (My ride to the office is 20 miles of 2 lane country roads, one stop light.) There is only one way to describe how the Audi handle the icy conditions -- REMARKABLE. I was able to start from a dead stop on an uphill grade without slipping a tire. I could easily navigate the roadway, including around the cars stuck and struggling. At on point I had to stop behind a Mercury, which had stopped for truck stuck on the uphill -- and it began sliding backwards towards me! Fortunately I was a stopped couple car lengths behind and able to pull around it.
Until Tuesday I did not have a full appreciation of what this car is capable of.
Regarding the Euro - I was in Germany last year and a Euro was $.92. It's currently around $1.18. (Last I checked - could be higher.) That's a 28% increase since May '02.
Now it's closer to $1.15, as I learned to my chagrin a couple of months ago, when I cashed in frequent flyer miles to take my wife to Europe for a couple of weeks (and fell in love again with a turbodiesel Audi).
What these numbers mean on a 35K Euro vehicle is that it sold for $29,750 in 2001 and sells for $40,250 now, all else equal.
There are also many people on the BMW boards wondering why prices have gone up so much. I'm guessing the Lexus & Infiniti crowds are also digesting this.
This is called macroeconomics, in the form of a weaker dollar.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
A strong dollar will come and go -- if economic history is any indication. If we want Audis and they are, as the are now, of European origin, well the prices will rise with the weak dollar and vice versa.
The "market" and the "economies" of the world effect interest rates, currency values and "virtuous" cycles far more than our President or even our Fed Chairman. Who do you think will raise interest rates next? Greenspan? Nahhh. The market will do so -- why? Because it is smarter than any one person regardless of their political bent.
The only good news, or practically the only good news about buying Audis these past 30+ months has been that the "money factors" or interest rates have been quite attractive, so much so, that even as the MSRP of my Audis has had upward creep, my payments (on Audi Fin leases, i.e.) have actually lowered for what I perceive as increased and improved content.
Finally, the current resident (or party perhaps) of our White House generally sets the "tone" for the next occupant (economically speaking) -- I'll blame or credit Bush in about 4 - 6 or so more years from now. I know Bush wants to take credit for the turnaround and wants to blame his predecessor for the problem -- he can't have it both ways. He didn't cause it and he can't cure it (while in office, generally speaking).
Now, on the other hand, if Greenspan would increase interest rates by, say 6%, well that would put the entire global economy in a tailspin.
Get your Audis while they're "cheap" based on the cost of money -- for who knows what tomorrow will bring.
For whatever reason (duh) Audi, BMW & Mercedes have chosen to sell (or, more often, lease) their product in North America for far more than the vehicle brings in Europe. It's worked, in spades.
What we're seeing at the moment is probably the European car companies sucking up much more of the exchange rate than they used to have to in the retail price in the U.S.
They used to make an astronomical profit. Now they make only a large one.