I started driving in 1997. The Neon and Wrangler belonged to 2 different roommates. The Aries, the Cavalier, one Bonneville, the 2 Proteges, and the Jetta were/are my own cars. I also drove my mom's 94 Bonneville too. A friend of mine has a 94 Cougar now, and it's been trouble since he got it, with only 65K on it (he hardly drives).
The Aries was my first car which I totalled (not my fault), then got the Cavalier, used. The Cav broke down all the time, so I traded for a 99 Protege DX (base). I got tired of that, and traded for an 01 Protege ES (loaded). In between, I sold the 94 Bonneville SE of my mom's and bought her a 93 SSE. When she passed away, I sold the 93 as well as the 01 Protege and bought the 02 Jetta.
I trade cars often because I never found anything I like. I hope to keep my Jetta for awhile though, as I finally found something I really like.
My experiences with Toyotas and Hondas have been just the opposite as most who post. None of them gave me the ownership experience I was expecting. Little things like wiper motors, power window motors, rust, seat latches, water pumps, transmission overhauls, etc just started failing at an alarming rate with Toyotas and Hondas after about 60K or so miles. In fairness, the engines were always solid, though. I've had (among others) a Camry, Avalon, 2 Accords, 2 BMWs (3-Series), a host of GMs and a Ford (Torino GT). When I was much younger I had a "love affair" with European brands (FIATs and MGs). They were all a blast to drive but nightmares to maintain.
The Toyotas and Hondas were not the "trouble free" cars that I had heard they were supposed to be. Once I got past the marketing hype of their allged superior build and reliability and looked at my ownership experiences more subjectively, I found that the American marks were just as reliable and built just as well, especially over the last 7-8 years. I can honestly say that the Grand Prix GTP, the 300M and the PT Cruiser have been the most trouble free cars I've ever owned. The last few years have been my furst "go round" in with Chyrslers. My 300M has about 100K miles on it and has been a sterling example of what a quality, trouble free car should be.
BMWs were also great drivers cars, but they tended to have little things go wrong on a regular basis, also that drove me nuts. Plus, those little things that went wrong turned out to be pretty expensive to repair or replace. That said, I'd buy another BMW in a heart beat if they had something I was looking for. Right now, I don't see anything they have the remotely interests me (the 3-series has gone from a sports car to an overstuffed luxury mark, with a price that reflects it).
vocus, while I'm not a a Protege fan, I've got my sights keenly set on an RX8 when they are in production.
I've already let my positive impression of the Elantra be known here. To me Hyundai is the car company to watch over the next decade.
The rates on my '01 GLS are virtually the same today as they were when I first got the car in October '00, actually a little lower (due to depreciation on the car I guess). That was a few months before the IIHS results came out. If rates are based in part on the IIHS results, as noted earlier, then shouldn't my rates have increased at renewal time in October '01?
I doubt they will tell you, but ask your insurer of they are part of the "organizations" who contribute to the IIHS.
There are other reasons your insurance on the Elantra might change....age, driving record, etc.
My son is being "stung" by the high gas prices these days. He said filling his tank went from about $12/tankful to $16/tankful. He's getting about 30 MPG in mixed driving. He wanted to know if there was a difference in going to the "cheapy" independent gas stations (no brand names like BP, Shell, SUNOCO, Conoco, etc). I told him "no". From what I can tell, the biggest differences are in marketing. All gasoline is supposed to meet minimum Federal gov't regulations for quality, detergent additives.
The only difference I can tell is if gas is a blend (gasoline and ethynol mix) or pure gasoline. I haven't seen the "mixed" gas around here in quite some time, though.
No difference in going to the 'cheapie' gas stations, except a couple pennies per gallon.
Surprised you had such a trouble-free experience with the 300M. I know alot of people who have had nightmares with Chrysler. 2 friends in particular (both with Neons, a 96 and an 00) both lost their auto tranny at 74K. Also, my co-worker has a Grand Cherokee that's riddled with problems (as are alot of them, according to CR). I guess I am in that 'bad percentage' of people who always gets a car with a problem.
When we bought my wife's '02 Sonata last February, the MSRP was $17,305, including extras like moonroof deflector, mats, mud guards, and cargo net. The dealer offered a $6,305 trade-in, and a $1,000 Owner Loyalty Rebate, bringing the final purchase price to $10,000 even. We paid 5% Mass. sales tax on that amount. I think it works the same way in NYS (although the combined state/local sales tax rates are generally 3% or more higher).
I suppose that there are differing experiences with any make. Looking around Edmunds, there are plenty of "[non-permissible content removed]" forums for every model.
While off topic, I compared my 300M to my former spouse's Avalon...same model year, about the same mileage. Aside from the fact that the 300M was cheaper (after discounts), better made, faster, handled better, had more durable materials, the Avalon offered less of everything. It had trans problems, was rusting (even though it was garaged every night), interior trim pieces falling off, cracked leather seats, power seat motor needed replacement, and on, and on. I had none of that with the 300M, just routine maintenance, new battery, new set of tires, brake job and oil changes.
The Cruiser looks to follow in the 300M's footsteps.
That gets back to the debate over what do the Japanese marks really offer for the money over an Elantra or the American counterparts.
Just this a.m. I saw an ad in the morning paper for an '03 Sable for $17K with leather, CD, adjustable pedals, cruise, auto, DOHC 6 cyl. Spend $17K at your Toyota or Honda store and you get a 4 cyl model with little more than A/C.
While not my cup of tea, I have driven Sables and Tauri as rental cars. They didn't squeak or rattle, they handled decent, had plenty of spunk.
I can only surmise that those who buy Camcords, wouldn't even look at a Tauri/Sable. That's just poor marketing on Ford's part.
Same goes for the Elantra over the Civic/Corolla/Echo. Why someone would spend $3k-$4k more for a lesser car confounds me, when the Elantra is such a good car at such a great price.
I agree that the Elantra is a great car- but try finding one with ABS. Also, many consumers are put off by the Elantras lower crash test scores and inferior fuel economy that nets no better acceleration.
I would buy the Elantra over the Civic and DEFINITELY Echo, but maybe not over the Corolla, depending on where my preferences lie. ~alpha
Don't doubt that getting a GLS with anti-lock might be hard. I did see quite a few GT modlels with Anti-lock when shopping. Of course the price goes up to over $13K, but the units had leather and a fancier guage package, too.
It depends on where you look regarding crash scores. The NHSA has really good crash scores on the Elantra. As I've stated before, I have some questions about where the IIHS loyalties reside as they are funded by the insurance companies they serve.
Civic is WAAYYY overpriced in my estimation. Personally, I think Honda needs to drop current Civic price as it just doesn't compete.
When test driving the Corolla before the purchase of the Elantra, it sure didn't give us the "warm and fuzzies" regarding build quality when the shifter broke off in my hand. It certainly was quieter than the Elantra, but it wasn't as quick. The Elantra "felt" more solid, too. The Corolla didn't handle as well as the Elantra, either.
I don't remember the MPG on the Corolla, but my son's Elantra is getting 30 MPG in mixed driving. No complaints there.
The Corolla (CE, I believe) we tested didn't have much in the way of options....just A/C. I don't think it had anti-lock. After negotiating for about an hour, I got the dealer to a high $13K price for purchase. That made the Corolla about $4K more expensive than the GLS and I felt the GLS was a much better car. Then there's the warranty.......
It may be a matter of perception, but for me, the winner was a "no brainer" once we did a "compare and contrast" on both cars.
I drove a Civic LX, a Focus SE, a Jetta 2.0 GLS, and a Corolla LE along with 3 Saturn ION models for this promotional drive thing that Saturn threw to introduce the ION to the public. Believe it or not, almost everyone there liked the way the Jetta drove the best, which made the Saturn guys hot...
Anyway, that was my first time driving the new Corolla and Civic, and I HATED both of them. I felt so cramped in the Civic, it wasn't funny. The Corolla lacked shoulder room as well. They both lacked power, and the Civic lacked handling, room, and noise suppression. And these LX models MSRP for $16K+??? Someone needs a head exam...
The Corolla felt a little tight in the shoulders, and powerless. The handling wasn't the best either, but it was better than the Civic's. Believe it or not, I liked the Jetta then the Focus out of all the cars. I didn't care for any of the other cars mentioned, because they felt cheap, closed in, uncomfortable, and too slow for me.
I think if you're looking for a small sports sedan, the Jetta and the Focus would be my top picks, too (particularly the 1.8 turbo you have).
If the goal is to find a good entry level car, then the usual choices are the Echo, Corolla, Civic, Cavalier, Elantra, Sentra, and the "non-SVS" Focus would be the "usual suspects". The Echo, Corolla, Civic and Sentra suffer from the same malady....they just don't offer much compared to the Elantra. They are priced way too high and don't offer any advantages over the Elantra. In many ways, they fall short of the Elantra. The Focus is a car I would have loved to really get for my son, but I've rented a couple of them and Ford really needs to step up and execute on what is a really good design. Cavalier isn't even swimming in the same pool as these others.
If you're looking at the sporty specialty cars, then I would put your 1.8 Turbo Jetta in that category as well as the Mini, the PT Turbo, and maybe the Turbo NB. All of them are as different as night and day. So, it depends on what you want. I wanted a car that had style and could haul, both on the road and for how much I could pack in it. So, I ended up with the PT Turbo.
For all out sports cars and as you move up the price ladder, you have the upcoming RX8 (my personal favorite), the G35 Coupe, the 350Z and the Corvette...further up the ladder you have the Porche.
Sport sedans have so many permutations, that's it's not workth mentioning because the lines blur. Acura TL-S...maybe, but does it offer that much mnore than the Accord V6 (which IMHO is still a middle of the road family car, no matter what Honda says it is). Does a Passat qualify? Is there that much difference in an A4 to justify a higher price? BMW is the "king of the hill" sports sedan but at what price? CTS? 300M? Maxima? G35 Sedan? IS300? Mazda 6? Pontiac GP GTP (particularly the new one coming out)?
Fact is, the only place I can find that there are very clear and noticeable differences is on the low end of the car scale and the Elantra won by a large margin.
I find it strange that you found the Corolla powerless and implicitly, that the Focus was ok. The Focus runs at least 1+ sec. (Street start, 5-60, etc) behind the Corolla in all documented testing that I have seen. The Elantra and Corolla are out in front.
I forgot to mention, the Focus was powerless too, but it had better handling and was noticeably roomier in the driver's seat.
I drove a friend's rental Focus about 50-60 miles, and it was pretty nice. If Ford would step up their quality control, the Focus could be a hit. They are also cheaply priced too. I saw a used 02 Focus ZX5 (the 5-door) for $11K, and it only had like 3K miles on it...
I wanted a Jetta anyway, so it didn't really come to other cars. I had liked the Jettas since their 1999.5 redesign, so I knew that was definitely going to be my next car.
I did drive the PT back in 2000 when it came out, and it was pretty nice too, except the power (this was a base model, of course - turbo is alot better). If I remember correctly, I wanted the driver's seat to go back a little bit further.
I know what you mean about blurring in cars. For example, Jettas can cost all the way up to $28K for the loaded GLX. NO WAY I would spend that much for one of those, I would get an A4 first.
Would have liked 5-door versions of each but they weren't readily available in mid-01. Focus and Pro featured better handling. Pro. was less comfortable. Focus sedan seemed less comfortable but hatch was OK. Chose Elantra because the price was best and its reliability was noticibly better than Focus. Haven't been sorry.
I'm looking for a car I can pay cash for (under $15K including taxes)and drive for the next 5 years without worry of either car payments or repair costs while I go back to school full time. On Carsdirect I can get a 2003 GLS automatic that looks like it equipped similarly to a Honda Civic EX automatic (moonroof, power windows locks, cruise, CD, ABS) for about $12300 after $1500 rebate. That appears to be almost $2000 less than even a Dodge Neon with a $2500 rebate. I would prefer not to have the moonroof, but I wanted ABS and CD and I don't see any other way of combing the options to get both ABS and CD. Maybe I can get the lower option package with ABS and replace the standard cassette with an aftermarket CD system, but that might attract theft compared to the integrated factory CD stereo. How is the theft rate of Hyundais lately? Is insurance on Hyundais generally more or less than Civics and Corollas (that are always on most often stolen lists)?
My son and I bought an Elantra GLS 5-speed for less than $10K ($9,795 + taxes and tags). It doesn't have ABS.
My thinking is the same as yours. I wanted him to have something that I know would last him through college (he's 17) without worrying about any major repairs. The Elantra will last 5 years with the bumper-to-bumper warranty with just routine maintenance. Past that, the drivetrain will be warranted until my son is out on his own.
I can't think of a better car for such a situation. He's got about 3K miles on it now and it's built as well (or better) than naything else we looked at including the Civic, Corolla, Focus, Sentra and Protege. Insurance is more or less about the same as the other vehicles in as much your rates will be determined more by your age than anything else.
You might even get a better deal by going to a couple of different dealers and negotiating than you would through carsdirect.
Insurance is also affected by the area you live in. Some vehicles have extra high insurance because they are stolen very frequently regardless of the driver's age or driving record. I know Civics, Integras, Accords, Camries and Corollas are like this. I'll check with my agent later to compare rates. I know the Elantra may be worth only around 2K trade in value after 5 years, so if the insurance is not any cheaper than a Civic or Corolla, those might be a better bet due to better gas mileage and much more resale value at trade in time. The other major black mark on the Elantra besides resale value is poor crash safety even compared to other small cars like the Civic and Corolla.
Seems like you did your research well. Only I don't see you getting Civic LX+ or Corolla LE with auto tranny + TTL for under 15K. Maybe Civic Dx without AC and power options or Corolla with cranking windows. But for a college car on budget these strippers could be a good choice. Then I don't think one will have much luck selling a car with no AC for any decent price.
colledge i think your #'s are alittle off . first off the poor crash test was in only 1 type of crash . not all . the rest were as good or better than the other cars . and as for resale just take a look at used 2000 and up elantras and see what they are going for . u will be suprised what they are asking for the cars . 2k after 5 years i think is way off the mark . the car you are wantin g is loaded not striped .if hyundia keeps on the pace they are on now, i don't think 5k-7k will be off the mark in 5 years . they are building MUCH better cars then they were 10 years ago . a civic or corola with the options you are wanting will go for 17-20k now easy . like you said an elantra will go for 12-13k so that 6k plus cheaper out the door . so lets say u get 4k trade in in 5 years on the elantra ( which i think will be low ,and why trade in a car when u can get more selling on your own ) you lost , persay 8k (i don't think using a car for 5 uears is a loss of money ) and u get a civic for how u want for 18k (which i don't think u will find with all the otions you want ) your trade in will be about 7-8k maybe . that more than the 8k persay lose on the civic . so where is the money lost ? you have to remember you paid less from the door .
I might stretch to get a new 2003 Civic LX or Corolla LE if there is no insurance savings on the Elantra. I might come up with the extra cash or put $15K down and finance the balance for 2 years. I will also see if I can find a used 2001-2002 Civic where the owner bought a transferable Hondacare extended warranty with at least 5 years left on the balance. Too bad there is no more Elantra wagan and too bad Honda no longer makes a cheap hatch like the old Civic CX and DXs from the 90's. Toyota has the cheap Echo, but is is even more embarassing than driving a Saturn or Kia.
It seems that a lot of folks smirk when I tell them I drive a Hyundai for my commuter. Then I tell them that in 13K miles, only one minor warranty issue, no squeaks, rattles, or groans. No wind noise, oil leaks, loose trim. Then when they shut the door, you can see it in their faces. The door went *thunk* when it shut, not boink. I have followed the automotive industry most of my life, and I have to say that I have never seen a turnaround like Hyundai has done going from the absolute throwaway piece of junk Excel to the offerings they now have. I have been a GM man most of my driving life as has the rest of my family. Now I drive the Elantra when the 2000 Sierra is in the shop, again. I could have bought two Elantras and an Accent for what the truck cost. Of course, as great as my little "Chigger" (small red bug) may be, it just won't pull an 8000lb trailer!
I thought you wanted ABS on your car. Civic LXes don't come with ABS. You might be able to find a new 2002 Civic EX coupe out there for under $15k, there's still some around in my area (slow sellers for some reason).
I don't know why you're lamenting the lack of an Elantra wagon--there's no Civic wagon either, and the Si hatch will cost you about $18k. For around $13k you can get a loaded Elantra GT hatchback, with almost the same utility as a wagon.
If you're looking for a cheap Civic hatch, you'll have to wait a year or two for the Jazz to come over here.
I bet you'll still wind up paying more for the used 2001-02 certified Civic with an extended warranty than you would for a brand-new Elantra. And watch out for the '01 Civics--they are notorious for the rear-wheel hop and quality issues (see details in the Honda Civic board).
I found that this report only confirmed my experience these last two years in my Hyundai Elantra (38,909 miles). CR acknowledges that Hyundai has made the most decisive move on the CR rankings for problems per 100 vehicles.
Second, my father's 89 Excel is about to die and we are looking at an Elantra. I have not visited this forum for a while so I was wondering how you like your Elantra(s). What are some of the weaknesses that the Elantra's have?
89 Excel, and it's still running?!? There's a shock.
You know, I saw an 88 or 89 Excel on the road the other day, and it looked pristine. I was surprised to still see it on the road, let alone running, from what I heard about Hyundai's earlier reliability record (circa 1995).
Everything seemed to change when the debuted the Accent in the US...
Yeah, the thing is if it does not cost much we might repair it and keep it. It's leaking a LOT of oil. Overall it's been pretty reliable. It's on its second engine after about 150,000 miles. I drove it the other day and it was scary. Felt like it was held together by a few bolts. But it still drives and acts as a furniture and Christmas tree hauler. Love and miss hatchbacks.
Here's my take on the Elantra's weaknesses based on owning my '01 GLS for the past 2.5 years and driving other GLSes and GTs:
* Poor IIHS frontal offset crash test score. Hyundai has stated that they can find no reason for the late-deploying airbags in 2 of the 3 IIHS tests, so there may be no general problem there--but we just don't know for sure. Elantra did rack up good NHTSA crash scores and demonstrated excellent structural integrity on the IIHS tests.
* Lower resale value than some competitors, especially Civic and Corolla. This is more a function of Hyundai's history than a statement on the current car, but it's something to consider. If you can find a good enough deal on an Elantra or plan on keeping the car 5 years or more, it's not an issue.
* Lower mpg than some competitors, in particular Civic EX and Corolla. (Other Civics don't offer anywhere close to the Elantra's performance, so it's not apples-to-apples.) This may be an issue if you drive a lot of miles, but otherwise it's not a huge difference. If you're really concerned about mpg, you'll probably want to look at a Prius, Civic Hybrid, Golfetta diesel, or ECHO.
* Handling not as good as the Protege's. If you want crisp handling and don't mind a harsh ride, the Protege is superior there. If you prefer a more comfortable ride, the Elantra has one of the smoothest rides of any compact.
* The Hyundai Stigma. Some people (those who are uninformed about the current state of Hyundai vehicles) will scrunch up their noses when you tell them you drive a Hyundai. Personally I think that's their problem, and none of my friends have done that (to my face anyway), but if that's important to you, buy something else.
Hyundai Excel's reliability is no worse than Volkswagens' of '86-'94. If you think Volkswagens produced during that period are any better than Hyundais as to mechanical and electrical system integrity, you are mistaken. Major parts in early Hyundais were from the same companies that supplied Honda, Toyota, Mazda, etc. Starters/alternators/compressors from Hitachi, Denso, Mtsubishi Electric; Tokico or Sumitomo brakes; bearings from NTN,, arguably the best in the world, all critical seals were also imports, ever heard of NOK? what else? These days domestic contents are close to 100%. All made in Korea. can't think of any foreign part in '03 Elantra right now except Osram light bulbs. Excel engines were Mitsu-designed Saturn and Orion engines. Those were certainly no worse than small 4-cyl. engines made by other Japanese manufacturers or Big Three. I have access to millions of rows of repair databases(iATN and Identifix), so I know these as FACTS. Who are these people perpetuating this "POS Excel" myth? Fools who don't know diddly squat about what's under the hood.
Apparently the reliability is not that bad. The resale IS bad though. However I don't think it is any worse than domestic cars, Focus, Cavalier Neon etc, but that's not saying much. The offset crash tests are the only major deterrent for me other than resale if I decide to sell it within 3 years. The crash tests are making me consider a used 2002 Taurus SES ex rental that has excellent crash test results. Hertz Car Sales has some in my area with about 24K miles for $10,998. I can get a 5 year/100K miles zero deductable Ford PremiumCare warranty for about $1700, which would make the total expense $12,700 +TTL and give me full warranty coverage for the next 4 years and 76K miles. The downside is that the Taurus will use even more gas than an Elantra, but at least the insurance is cheaper. If I do go with the Elantra, I may get the 5-door hatch if it is big enough to fit a mountain bike inside. Does anyone know if one or two mountain bikes can fit inside if you fold down the rear seat? I know you could not stand them up inside like in a minivan, but maybe, if the front wheels are removed, 2 bikes can lay flat with a blanket between them to prevent them from getting scratched from rubbing and rattling together while the car is in motion. Ideally, two mountain bikes could fit inside an Elantra 5-door without even removing the front wheels.
>>> Hyundai Excel's reliability is no worse than Volkswagens' of '86-'94. <<<
I didn't know anyone was comparing Hyundai's reliability to that of VW of 10-15 years ago, but if we did, what was VW's reliability record back then, anyway? Right now it's pretty bad; was it better back then?
As for the Excel, whatever was under the hood in those 1st Gen Excels, I didn't want it. I drove an Excel back in '88 when I was looking for a new car, and it was one of the most unpleasant and cheap-feeling cars I've ever driven. I remember how odd it was that the salesman refused to let me drive it off the lot on the test drive; he drove it about 3 miles on the freeway before he let me take over. I was wondering if it took that long to get the engine operating normally. Anyway, I took a pass on the Excel and bought a Civic LX, which was so far above the Excel in design and quality that it was no contest. Compared to the Civic back then, the Excel was, to use your term, a POS. Fast-forward to the last couple of years, where the Elantra has proved to be as reliable as the current-gen Civic and very competitive in overall quality and performance to the Civic. As the editors of Edumunds.com said, to paraphrase, if the Elantra holds up, there's no reason to buy a Japanese car. So far it's proving to hold up.
Any of your choices will be fine, including the Elantra. Just one statement regarding resale value, the lower cost of the Elantra (by about $3K-$4K) will more than make up the resale difference compared to the Civic/Corolla.
I just checked KBB.com for the trade in value for a 5 year old 1998 Elantra GLS automatic with 60K miles in "good" condition equipped like a Civic LX automatic and it came out to about $3710. Private party value was about $5030. The Civic LX automatic with the same miles and condition was about $6,765. Private party value was about $8,080. Carsdirect has new 2003 Civic LX automatics in my area for a little under $15400. A 2003 Elantra GLS automatic with the accessory group 2 goes for about $12900 at Carsdirect in my area minus the current $1500 rebate making the cost about $11,400. So, in the case it does look like the I would be ahead despite there potentially being about $3000 difference in resale value. The $1500 rebate makes the difference. If there was no rebate, you would still be ahead spending the extra money on the Civic. Of course, if you either buy the extended warranty on the Civic or pay some out of pocket repair costs between the end of the 36,000 miles Honda warranty and the 60,000 mile point, the cost savings from the Elantra gets wider. If you do not buy the extended warranty on the Civic and you also have little or no repair costs before 60,000, it could be possible that the Honda could cost less after factoring in fuel savings and the added private party resale value. It looks like the only way you would be sure that the Hyundai came out cheaper in the long run is if you kept it to 100K miles. The older the cars get, the smaller the resale differential between the Civic and Elantra gets, plus you have the powertrain warranty till 100K miles on the Hyundai.
the way you are talking you might as well add the difference on the money you gain on interest for the 3-4k you save not spending it in the first place since you are doing all the #'s . also the 98 elantra was a totaly different car also no where near as nice as the new models . the new models are night and day different .
You've been pretty thourough with the financial part. The best thing to do now is to drive the Civic and then drive the Elantra and see which one best meets your needs.
I also bet if you negotiate a little, you may be able to buy the Elantra for a little less than carsdirect.
Resale is tricky. As ziglifler points out, the current Elantra is getting many accolades which may move its resale value up in the coming years. In addition, the current Civic hasn't been as "desireable" as previous models which could negatively affect resale.
It's tough to predict what a car will be worth sometime in the future since no one can predict it with any sort of certainty.
I don't know what the MPG is for the Civic, but I know my son is averaging about 30MPG in mixed driving.
The resale value at best its only an estimate. I agree with graphicguy, as elantra and hyundai cars in general gets more accolades, the resale value will only increase in the future. The one also has to remember, you are not selling or trading your vehicle to kelly blue book, edmunds, or any of other numerous on line webistes.
Can one use the price of used Elantras as a guide for resale value of the 2001+ models? A friend of mine was about to get an 01 Elantra automatic with 23K miles on it (if I remember correctly, it's been a couple months), and the price on the car was $7995.
He ended up getting an Echo because he said he liked the way the car 'felt' better. Okay, whatever...
I wish it were easier to come up with a "fair value" for resale, but that's next to impossible.
I've bought and sold many cars, both new and used. When trading-in at a dealer, for example, no matter what guide I've used (KBB, Black Book, the yellow NADA guide) none of them are accurate according to the dealer. The dealer has always said that the guides I used were always inaccurate (too high).
Whenever I've sold to private owners, I've never been able to get what I thought was the "going rate" according to the "guides".
A car is worth what any individual is willing to pay.
I must not be very good at selling or trading. Maybe I always think my cars are worth more than they really are. Or maybe, I negotiate so hard on the new car, the trade-in becomes less "valuable" to the dealer. I always negotiate the new car and then talk about the trade-in. I always keep them as to seperate transactions.
burned out the drivers side bulb (H7) for the second time in 35K. This will be six h7's plus a replacement for the H1 (had the battery out). This is covered under the warranty but I wonder whether it's worth checking the car into the dealer for a lamp. This is the weak link in the whole car as far as I'm concerned. Certainly no big deal, but wish they had used a more standard, cheaper lamp.
If you're burning out that many lamps, you should definitely take the car in for the problem. It could be an electrical problem that's causing the lamps to burn out.
when my headlight went out i took it back and they replaced it . the service manager told me that they replaced all the lights with a different type of bulb , i forget what kind he said they were . but he told me they got alot of cars back because of the headlights and that the factory build are to sensitive to vibrations . if this helps any .
Comments
~alpha
The Aries was my first car which I totalled (not my fault), then got the Cavalier, used. The Cav broke down all the time, so I traded for a 99 Protege DX (base). I got tired of that, and traded for an 01 Protege ES (loaded). In between, I sold the 94 Bonneville SE of my mom's and bought her a 93 SSE. When she passed away, I sold the 93 as well as the 01 Protege and bought the 02 Jetta.
I trade cars often because I never found anything I like. I hope to keep my Jetta for awhile though, as I finally found something I really like.
The Toyotas and Hondas were not the "trouble free" cars that I had heard they were supposed to be. Once I got past the marketing hype of their allged superior build and reliability and looked at my ownership experiences more subjectively, I found that the American marks were just as reliable and built just as well, especially over the last 7-8 years. I can honestly say that the Grand Prix GTP, the 300M and the PT Cruiser have been the most trouble free cars I've ever owned. The last few years have been my furst "go round" in with Chyrslers. My 300M has about 100K miles on it and has been a sterling example of what a quality, trouble free car should be.
BMWs were also great drivers cars, but they tended to have little things go wrong on a regular basis, also that drove me nuts. Plus, those little things that went wrong turned out to be pretty expensive to repair or replace. That said, I'd buy another BMW in a heart beat if they had something I was looking for. Right now, I don't see anything they have the remotely interests me (the 3-series has gone from a sports car to an overstuffed luxury mark, with a price that reflects it).
vocus, while I'm not a a Protege fan, I've got my sights keenly set on an RX8 when they are in production.
I've already let my positive impression of the Elantra be known here. To me Hyundai is the car company to watch over the next decade.
There are other reasons your insurance on the Elantra might change....age, driving record, etc.
My son is being "stung" by the high gas prices these days. He said filling his tank went from about $12/tankful to $16/tankful. He's getting about 30 MPG in mixed driving. He wanted to know if there was a difference in going to the "cheapy" independent gas stations (no brand names like BP, Shell, SUNOCO, Conoco, etc). I told him "no". From what I can tell, the biggest differences are in marketing. All gasoline is supposed to meet minimum Federal gov't regulations for quality, detergent additives.
The only difference I can tell is if gas is a blend (gasoline and ethynol mix) or pure gasoline. I haven't seen the "mixed" gas around here in quite some time, though.
Surprised you had such a trouble-free experience with the 300M. I know alot of people who have had nightmares with Chrysler. 2 friends in particular (both with Neons, a 96 and an 00) both lost their auto tranny at 74K. Also, my co-worker has a Grand Cherokee that's riddled with problems (as are alot of them, according to CR). I guess I am in that 'bad percentage' of people who always gets a car with a problem.
Speaking of which, my co-worker just bought a Sonata LX in this ruby color, very nice. He loves it compared to his 91 Cavalier with 212K on it.
While off topic, I compared my 300M to my former spouse's Avalon...same model year, about the same mileage. Aside from the fact that the 300M was cheaper (after discounts), better made, faster, handled better, had more durable materials, the Avalon offered less of everything. It had trans problems, was rusting (even though it was garaged every night), interior trim pieces falling off, cracked leather seats, power seat motor needed replacement, and on, and on. I had none of that with the 300M, just routine maintenance, new battery, new set of tires, brake job and oil changes.
The Cruiser looks to follow in the 300M's footsteps.
That gets back to the debate over what do the Japanese marks really offer for the money over an Elantra or the American counterparts.
Just this a.m. I saw an ad in the morning paper for an '03 Sable for $17K with leather, CD, adjustable pedals, cruise, auto, DOHC 6 cyl. Spend $17K at your Toyota or Honda store and you get a 4 cyl model with little more than A/C.
While not my cup of tea, I have driven Sables and Tauri as rental cars. They didn't squeak or rattle, they handled decent, had plenty of spunk.
I can only surmise that those who buy Camcords, wouldn't even look at a Tauri/Sable. That's just poor marketing on Ford's part.
Same goes for the Elantra over the Civic/Corolla/Echo. Why someone would spend $3k-$4k more for a lesser car confounds me, when the Elantra is such a good car at such a great price.
I would buy the Elantra over the Civic and DEFINITELY Echo, but maybe not over the Corolla, depending on where my preferences lie.
~alpha
It depends on where you look regarding crash scores. The NHSA has really good crash scores on the Elantra. As I've stated before, I have some questions about where the IIHS loyalties reside as they are funded by the insurance companies they serve.
Civic is WAAYYY overpriced in my estimation. Personally, I think Honda needs to drop current Civic price as it just doesn't compete.
When test driving the Corolla before the purchase of the Elantra, it sure didn't give us the "warm and fuzzies" regarding build quality when the shifter broke off in my hand. It certainly was quieter than the Elantra, but it wasn't as quick. The Elantra "felt" more solid, too. The Corolla didn't handle as well as the Elantra, either.
I don't remember the MPG on the Corolla, but my son's Elantra is getting 30 MPG in mixed driving. No complaints there.
The Corolla (CE, I believe) we tested didn't have much in the way of options....just A/C. I don't think it had anti-lock. After negotiating for about an hour, I got the dealer to a high $13K price for purchase. That made the Corolla about $4K more expensive than the GLS and I felt the GLS was a much better car. Then there's the warranty.......
It may be a matter of perception, but for me, the winner was a "no brainer" once we did a "compare and contrast" on both cars.
Anyway, that was my first time driving the new Corolla and Civic, and I HATED both of them. I felt so cramped in the Civic, it wasn't funny. The Corolla lacked shoulder room as well. They both lacked power, and the Civic lacked handling, room, and noise suppression. And these LX models MSRP for $16K+??? Someone needs a head exam...
The Corolla felt a little tight in the shoulders, and powerless. The handling wasn't the best either, but it was better than the Civic's. Believe it or not, I liked the Jetta then the Focus out of all the cars. I didn't care for any of the other cars mentioned, because they felt cheap, closed in, uncomfortable, and too slow for me.
If the goal is to find a good entry level car, then the usual choices are the Echo, Corolla, Civic, Cavalier, Elantra, Sentra, and the "non-SVS" Focus would be the "usual suspects". The Echo, Corolla, Civic and Sentra suffer from the same malady....they just don't offer much compared to the Elantra. They are priced way too high and don't offer any advantages over the Elantra. In many ways, they fall short of the Elantra. The Focus is a car I would have loved to really get for my son, but I've rented a couple of them and Ford really needs to step up and execute on what is a really good design. Cavalier isn't even swimming in the same pool as these others.
If you're looking at the sporty specialty cars, then I would put your 1.8 Turbo Jetta in that category as well as the Mini, the PT Turbo, and maybe the Turbo NB. All of them are as different as night and day. So, it depends on what you want. I wanted a car that had style and could haul, both on the road and for how much I could pack in it. So, I ended up with the PT Turbo.
For all out sports cars and as you move up the price ladder, you have the upcoming RX8 (my personal favorite), the G35 Coupe, the 350Z and the Corvette...further up the ladder you have the Porche.
Sport sedans have so many permutations, that's it's not workth mentioning because the lines blur. Acura TL-S...maybe, but does it offer that much mnore than the Accord V6 (which IMHO is still a middle of the road family car, no matter what Honda says it is). Does a Passat qualify? Is there that much difference in an A4 to justify a higher price? BMW is the "king of the hill" sports sedan but at what price? CTS? 300M? Maxima? G35 Sedan? IS300? Mazda 6? Pontiac GP GTP (particularly the new one coming out)?
Fact is, the only place I can find that there are very clear and noticeable differences is on the low end of the car scale and the Elantra won by a large margin.
The Focus runs at least 1+ sec. (Street start, 5-60, etc) behind the Corolla in all documented testing that I have seen. The Elantra and Corolla are out in front.
~alpha
I drove a friend's rental Focus about 50-60 miles, and it was pretty nice. If Ford would step up their quality control, the Focus could be a hit. They are also cheaply priced too. I saw a used 02 Focus ZX5 (the 5-door) for $11K, and it only had like 3K miles on it...
I did drive the PT back in 2000 when it came out, and it was pretty nice too, except the power (this was a base model, of course - turbo is alot better). If I remember correctly, I wanted the driver's seat to go back a little bit further.
I know what you mean about blurring in cars. For example, Jettas can cost all the way up to $28K for the loaded GLX. NO WAY I would spend that much for one of those, I would get an A4 first.
On Carsdirect I can get a 2003 GLS automatic that looks like it equipped similarly to a Honda Civic EX automatic (moonroof, power windows locks, cruise, CD, ABS) for about $12300 after $1500 rebate. That appears to be almost $2000 less than even a Dodge Neon with a $2500 rebate.
I would prefer not to have the moonroof, but I wanted ABS and CD and I don't see any other way of combing the options to get both ABS and CD. Maybe I can get the lower option package with ABS and replace the standard cassette with an aftermarket CD system, but that might attract theft compared to the integrated factory CD stereo.
How is the theft rate of Hyundais lately? Is insurance on Hyundais generally more or less than Civics and Corollas (that are always on most often stolen lists)?
My thinking is the same as yours. I wanted him to have something that I know would last him through college (he's 17) without worrying about any major repairs. The Elantra will last 5 years with the bumper-to-bumper warranty with just routine maintenance. Past that, the drivetrain will be warranted until my son is out on his own.
I can't think of a better car for such a situation. He's got about 3K miles on it now and it's built as well (or better) than naything else we looked at including the Civic, Corolla, Focus, Sentra and Protege. Insurance is more or less about the same as the other vehicles in as much your rates will be determined more by your age than anything else.
You might even get a better deal by going to a couple of different dealers and negotiating than you would through carsdirect.
I'll check with my agent later to compare rates.
I know the Elantra may be worth only around 2K trade in value after 5 years, so if the insurance is not any cheaper than a Civic or Corolla, those might be a better bet due to better gas mileage and much more resale value at trade in time.
The other major black mark on the Elantra besides resale value is poor crash safety even compared to other small cars like the Civic and Corolla.
I will also see if I can find a used 2001-2002 Civic where the owner bought a transferable Hondacare extended warranty with at least 5 years left on the balance.
Too bad there is no more Elantra wagan and too bad Honda no longer makes a cheap hatch like the old Civic CX and DXs from the 90's.
Toyota has the cheap Echo, but is is even more embarassing than driving a Saturn or Kia.
Jim
I don't know why you're lamenting the lack of an Elantra wagon--there's no Civic wagon either, and the Si hatch will cost you about $18k. For around $13k you can get a loaded Elantra GT hatchback, with almost the same utility as a wagon.
If you're looking for a cheap Civic hatch, you'll have to wait a year or two for the Jazz to come over here.
I bet you'll still wind up paying more for the used 2001-02 certified Civic with an extended warranty than you would for a brand-new Elantra. And watch out for the '01 Civics--they are notorious for the rear-wheel hop and quality issues (see details in the Honda Civic board).
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5838
Second, my father's 89 Excel is about to die and we are looking at an Elantra. I have not visited this forum for a while so I was wondering how you like your Elantra(s). What are some of the weaknesses that the Elantra's have?
Thank you in advance.
You know, I saw an 88 or 89 Excel on the road the other day, and it looked pristine. I was surprised to still see it on the road, let alone running, from what I heard about Hyundai's earlier reliability record (circa 1995).
Everything seemed to change when the debuted the Accent in the US...
* Poor IIHS frontal offset crash test score. Hyundai has stated that they can find no reason for the late-deploying airbags in 2 of the 3 IIHS tests, so there may be no general problem there--but we just don't know for sure. Elantra did rack up good NHTSA crash scores and demonstrated excellent structural integrity on the IIHS tests.
* Lower resale value than some competitors, especially Civic and Corolla. This is more a function of Hyundai's history than a statement on the current car, but it's something to consider. If you can find a good enough deal on an Elantra or plan on keeping the car 5 years or more, it's not an issue.
* Lower mpg than some competitors, in particular Civic EX and Corolla. (Other Civics don't offer anywhere close to the Elantra's performance, so it's not apples-to-apples.) This may be an issue if you drive a lot of miles, but otherwise it's not a huge difference. If you're really concerned about mpg, you'll probably want to look at a Prius, Civic Hybrid, Golfetta diesel, or ECHO.
* Handling not as good as the Protege's. If you want crisp handling and don't mind a harsh ride, the Protege is superior there. If you prefer a more comfortable ride, the Elantra has one of the smoothest rides of any compact.
* The Hyundai Stigma. Some people (those who are uninformed about the current state of Hyundai vehicles) will scrunch up their noses when you tell them you drive a Hyundai. Personally I think that's their problem, and none of my friends have done that (to my face anyway), but if that's important to you, buy something else.
I have access to millions of rows of repair databases(iATN and Identifix), so I know these as FACTS. Who are these people perpetuating this "POS Excel" myth? Fools who don't know diddly squat about what's under the hood.
The offset crash tests are the only major deterrent for me other than resale if I decide to sell it within 3 years. The crash tests are making me consider a used 2002 Taurus SES ex rental that has excellent crash test results. Hertz Car Sales has some in my area with about 24K miles for $10,998. I can get a 5 year/100K miles zero deductable Ford PremiumCare warranty for about $1700, which would make the total expense $12,700 +TTL and give me full warranty coverage for the next 4 years and 76K miles. The downside is that the Taurus will use even more gas than an Elantra, but at least the insurance is cheaper.
If I do go with the Elantra, I may get the 5-door hatch if it is big enough to fit a mountain bike inside.
Does anyone know if one or two mountain bikes can fit inside if you fold down the rear seat?
I know you could not stand them up inside like in a minivan, but maybe, if the front wheels are removed, 2 bikes can lay flat with a blanket between them to prevent them from getting scratched from rubbing and rattling together while the car is in motion.
Ideally, two mountain bikes could fit inside an Elantra 5-door without even removing the front wheels.
I didn't know anyone was comparing Hyundai's reliability to that of VW of 10-15 years ago, but if we did, what was VW's reliability record back then, anyway? Right now it's pretty bad; was it better back then?
As for the Excel, whatever was under the hood in those 1st Gen Excels, I didn't want it. I drove an Excel back in '88 when I was looking for a new car, and it was one of the most unpleasant and cheap-feeling cars I've ever driven. I remember how odd it was that the salesman refused to let me drive it off the lot on the test drive; he drove it about 3 miles on the freeway before he let me take over. I was wondering if it took that long to get the engine operating normally. Anyway, I took a pass on the Excel and bought a Civic LX, which was so far above the Excel in design and quality that it was no contest. Compared to the Civic back then, the Excel was, to use your term, a POS. Fast-forward to the last couple of years, where the Elantra has proved to be as reliable as the current-gen Civic and very competitive in overall quality and performance to the Civic. As the editors of Edumunds.com said, to paraphrase, if the Elantra holds up, there's no reason to buy a Japanese car. So far it's proving to hold up.
The Civic LX automatic with the same miles and condition was about $6,765. Private party value was about $8,080.
Carsdirect has new 2003 Civic LX automatics in my area for a little under $15400.
A 2003 Elantra GLS automatic with the accessory group 2 goes for about $12900 at Carsdirect in my area minus the current $1500 rebate making the cost about $11,400. So, in the case it does look like the I would be ahead despite there potentially being about $3000 difference in resale value.
The $1500 rebate makes the difference. If there was no rebate, you would still be ahead spending the extra money on the Civic. Of course, if you either buy the extended warranty on the Civic or pay some out of pocket repair costs between the end of the 36,000 miles Honda warranty and the 60,000 mile point, the cost savings from the Elantra gets wider.
If you do not buy the extended warranty on the Civic and you also have little or no repair costs before 60,000, it could be possible that the Honda could cost less after factoring in fuel savings and the added private party resale value.
It looks like the only way you would be sure that the Hyundai came out cheaper in the long run is if you kept it to 100K miles. The older the cars get, the smaller the resale differential between the Civic and Elantra gets, plus you have the powertrain warranty till 100K miles on the Hyundai.
I also bet if you negotiate a little, you may be able to buy the Elantra for a little less than carsdirect.
Resale is tricky. As ziglifler points out, the current Elantra is getting many accolades which may move its resale value up in the coming years. In addition, the current Civic hasn't been as "desireable" as previous models which could negatively affect resale.
It's tough to predict what a car will be worth sometime in the future since no one can predict it with any sort of certainty.
I don't know what the MPG is for the Civic, but I know my son is averaging about 30MPG in mixed driving.
He ended up getting an Echo because he said he liked the way the car 'felt' better. Okay, whatever...
I've bought and sold many cars, both new and used. When trading-in at a dealer, for example, no matter what guide I've used (KBB, Black Book, the yellow NADA guide) none of them are accurate according to the dealer. The dealer has always said that the guides I used were always inaccurate (too high).
Whenever I've sold to private owners, I've never been able to get what I thought was the "going rate" according to the "guides".
A car is worth what any individual is willing to pay.
The car before that was dead on KBB's price, which I was shocked by as well.
I must not be very good at selling or trading. Maybe I always think my cars are worth more than they really are. Or maybe, I negotiate so hard on the new car, the trade-in becomes less "valuable" to the dealer. I always negotiate the new car and then talk about the trade-in. I always keep them as to seperate transactions.