Older Honda Accords

lichtronimo

We have two Accords and I don't personally think I'd buy myself a Camry. But, when people ask what car they should buy, I tell them to go test both the Accord and Camry. Both are incredibly well engineered and reliable vehicles with the best build quality on the market. Choose your own preference as to which you like to drive better.

imidazol97

calvinywang "Honda Accord Problems Part 2" Aug 13, 2003 10:06pm

links to message #5563 on the Honda Accord Problems Part 2 board about JD Powers initial build and says its two star -- lowest rating...!!!

How does the Camry rate for this contemporary rating of build quality?

If we keep saying Honda is great, many people will keep believing it, but the JDPowers isn't saying this.

venanzik

Do they make a rear sunshade for the 2003's yet? i did see a site which listed them for the 98-02 cars. any one have one of those instaled? if so does it fit well and look like it was part of the car or does it just look like an after thought.

dindak

Honda has had a few rough starts as of late (Accord and Oyd come to mind). I read yesterday the new Sienna is being recalled already. I think the pressure to pumping out new models fast may be catching up with Honda and Toyota. Perhaps they need to slow things down a bit.

berbel

Just couldn't resist entering the fray........

Subjectivity related to handling aside........

The tires stink if you are a bit of an aggressive
driver and enjoy going through the twisties at a
little over the limit. The company put those MXV4's
on the car because they have low rolling resistance, thus better gas mileage. Akin to the
same reason they went to 5W-20 oil. Did someone say
CAFE??? The tires have been a subject of criticism
in almost every eval of the car I have read (and I have read at least a half dozen) They have been
taken to task as contributing to long braking distances and one reviewer stated in no uncertain
terms, "The tires do everything well EXCEPT STICK."
(emphasis added) I am waiting for Tirerack to get
a certain wheel in stock that I'm going to probably
buy and when they come in, those wheels will have
a set of Bridgestones mounted on them. My present
Michelins have about 3000 miles on them. They are
outa here!

robertsmx

I don't think the Michelins on Accord contribute to better mileage, but the harder tires have pretty good life. Couple of my friends have Camrys and they both had to replace their first set of tires at 30-35K miles. The stock tires in my '98 Accord (MXV4) lasted 53K miles and had a a few thousand miles more in them. And I'm a leadfooted driver!

But more than what the tires do, handling is more about feeling it, than expressing it on a sheet of paper.

justin

is this fishy to everyone else?

on a used car lot - 03 EX-V6 Accord sedan, 320 miles on it. not 3 thousand miles. 320 miles. carfax is fine, not paint issues, no frame issues.

WHY and HOW could someone trade a car after only 300 miles??? beautiful car - drives well - built in March of 03? is that a good date - problems worked out by the time the March cars were made?

thanks!

robertsmx

Possibility: Someone purchased it, lost job or moved out of the country, and had to sell it.
Possibility: Test Drive Car

winbro

those 2 issues seem to dominate a lot of gripes. why not at about 15-18k miles, replace the tires with the tires of your dreams (keep the michelin's in storage). At the same time, put a set of quality rotors & pads on.

Then when those tires wear out, say at 75k miles, put the michelin's back on.

robr2

Maybe the car was spot delivered and the financing fell through. Dealer takes the car back but since it went over the curb, it has to be sold as used.

justin

so, am i hearing that no one here would hesitate to buy it?

any word on the MFGR date? would rattles and brake issues affect that car ya think?

the V6 in the Honda is pretty much flawless, right? the 5 speed auto is all fixed up compared to the TL units as well?

car drove really nice. so quiet. yet solid and power galore compared to my 115 hp 4 cylinder now.

ken972

Has anyone tried michelin mxv4 plus's on the 03 accord? I would imagine they would give better grip then the reg mxv4. Im waiting to buy an 04 accord and like the suggestion of one poster of trying to get the dealer to put different tires on the car. Seems like the mxv4 plus would give better traction and performance over the reg mxv4.

robertsmx

If I remember correctly, my 98 Accord came with MXV4 Energy Plus. I liked tire except for the fact that they tend to produce more road noise and about average when it comes to wet/dry traction. The bigger issue was... at $127/tire, they were very expensive (with 16 inchers now, probably even more).

fjb323

If this is on a Honda Dealer lot just tell them it has to be Certified! Then you get whatever is left of the original 3/36 warranty PLUS another 12 months 12,000. miles Plus total 7 years 100,000. mile Power train warranty all thru Honda and with 4.9%

isellhondas

Anytime you can get to Seattle, I'll buy you a beer!

bazinet thinks I'm a phony. He thinks I don't really sell Hondas. If I hit the lottery this week, he will be correct!

I just replaced the 16" Michelins on my '99 Accord v-6 coupe. These are the same tires that some people think are so horrible.

At 50,000 miles they still looked good! I had noticed they had lost some wet weather grip...not bad though. I never once had them slip or lose traction. Never even had a flat. I'm not a wimpy driver but I don't drive crazy either.

A truck dumped a load of metal on the freeway in front of me one day. I couldn't straddle it all and managed to cut one front and one rear tire.

I decided to replace all of them with Bridgestone Turanzas. Noticed an improvenment in handling and they are quieter! Glad I got them.

Hasn't rained here since I bought them so we shall see.

lelandhendrix

I sure as HELL would have taken the jump on that car if it was for a good price. EVERYTHING you buy comes down to this: What is is worth to you? The slight suspicion you have for the status of the car should be made up for in the savings over a brand new ex-v6 from the dealer. If it isn't--skip it.

I bought a brand new LX and LOVE the car, but it haunts me sometimes that I'd like to have a sunroof even after all the complaints on the squeaks and rattles. Oh well...

But I am a big proponent of buying used to save money, and my 03 Accord would have been used but I couldn't find any available in my area in May of this year. I had to buy then because my trusts 1993 Civic Sedan "Sally" was at the end of her road.

Good luck.

lichtronimo

LOUD, LOUD, LOUD. Where's that Bridgestone dealer?

jgwaltney

considering a closeout ex-v6 sedan or coupe -

thoughts or suggestions fr anyone who has exp. with both sedan and coupe? which you prefer/why? i can deal with either space-wise...

can purchase for dlr cost/invoice ($23,200 sedan -$23,315 coupe) plus dest fee($460) - any dlr installed stuff (mudguards, roof visor ,etc) at dlr cost

given that dlr still gets 2% holdback on their cost of the car, they would make approx. $460-500 on the sale - what are avg best deals that ppl are seeing on 2003 closeouts for sx-v6 sedans and coupes? -

any reason to wait for 04's?

jebinc1

2.9% financing
Larger discount
Same car

If you're going to trade in in less than three years, and you're paying cash then go with the 2004.

Coupe if you have no kids.....

isellhondas

They wouldn't "make" 460-500 on that car!

Ever heard of overhead, cost of doing business, making payroll etc...?

Holdback is NOT bottom line profit.

tblazer503

generally, if you haggle really hard, you may be able to get your accord for invoice or a little under. I bought mine in oct '02 for $500 over invoice. It took me 5minutes to get the price by phone(internet sales) and I could deal with it. I probably may have gotten more savings by haggling, but I don't know if it's worth my time. IMHO if you can get a decent price in a short amount of time without wading through all the back and forth time, it's worth it, and makes the buying experience much happier and easier. =o)

Reminder that it depends heavily on the type of dealer you go through. Most dealers can make similar offers, but if you go to a small dealer, you will probably end up paying more money as they will have to make more money per vehicle to pay the bills. if you go high volume, you may not enjoy it much, but will probably get a better price. Then again, some Honda dealerships are more prone to giving you things like rental cars when your car is in the shop if you buy from them. lots of factors in play.

b_bazinet

If you're not a phony then how didn't you know about the 10k mile 1st oil change for all 4 cyl. Accords, Civics, and CRV's?????? I just find it very hard to believe an actual Honda salesperson doesn't know this, not to mention how a Honda salesperson who's working the year end clearance has all this free time to be constantly on this site posting, I would think you would be too busy right now???? Am I the only one that thinks you're not for real????

imidazol97

If you believe there is not extra money from the company for the dealer to sell out 03 models and the only profit is in the holdback ($460-$500) for the dealer to keep, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you!!!

Isellhondas (????) Profit is sales price minus cost. The fact that there are expenses doesn't rename the profit...

steven39

hello, i was wondering whether to purchase a 2003 accord dx or my uncle chesters 73
ford pinto with close to 300,000 miles on it. which will hold up better in the long run. the pinto does offer a very good 8 track deck with radio shack speakers. and it is a ford car, fords are pretty good reliable cars, plus the pinto runs on regular gas, although finding regular gas here in tennessee is like trying to find umm ummmm somethin in the haystack. anyway
thanx all.

aggie1995

"The fact that there are expenses doesn't rename the profit... "

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

What finance book did you read that from. Profit is defined as the Sales Price Net of the Cost of Goods Sold. Profit is the same as net income, it is the company's total earnings less expenses. In other words, the money a business makes after taking into account all the expenses

The thread regarding "Ask a Dealer Questions" goes into great detail on this issue of bottomline profit.

Why is it that people get such a fetish for trying to steal a car from a dealer and make sure that he make no money on the deal? How much profit did the department store make on that shirt you bought last. How much profit did McDonanld's make on the Happy meal you bought for yor kids last weekend? How much profit did your home builder make on your house? What about the rent you pay? If you bought a computer recently how much profit did Dell make on that? The gas you pumped? Is Exxon making too much? Why don't you try going to those people and explain to them that they deserve to only make 1 or 2% profit on a sale? Better yet why don't you just tell them that the price is too high and you won't pay it? What do you think they will do? Maybe you own a business, how much money should you make? Is that public information that you'll let every customer know? What????...... you won't tell them that you'll make XX% on those services they just bought? Why not?

The fact is that we as consumers don;t have the priveledge of knowing the costs of most purchases. We do know the cost of a vehicle. I completely agree that we should use that knowledge to our benefit but for some reason we don't believe that they are telling us the the truth. If MFGs never published the dealer invoices we would not have this problem. It would be a blind purchase like any other.

Bottom line...unless you can prove (with documentation) that a dealer is making more money than ISELLHONDAS says...your Brooklyn Bridge is worth nothing! (besides there are electrical problems)

justin

the dealer that had the used Honda had the nerve to try to charge $25900, only go down to $23900. a new one can be had for $23700 plus tax/tags just a block from the used dealer.

the used dealer was a Nissan dealer. i should have known. the guy was rude and when i questioned him about why someone would buy used over new for the same price, he said "if you can get an Accord for invoice, come tell me, i will buy it myself"....what a jack***, that is surely NOT the way to sell a car that looks suspicious to people!

b_bazinet

Here's why your argument is flawed, if I don't want to buy a shirt at a store markup I don't buy it. I don't need a shirt from the Gap to get from point a to point b. A car is something totally different than a shirt, shoes, happy meal, etc.... You NEED a car to live in this world, to go to work, to earn a income, to get to the store to buy that shirt, it is something you CAN NOT live without. The argument, "if you want to buy without the hassle go buy a Saturn" is complete junk also. I should be able to buy any car I Want, but cars are the only commodity where there is a shell game with the consumer. Unlike a happy meal or some air jordans, dealerships can pick and choose who to sell a car to based on how much they're willing to accept. The person behind the register at the Gap doesn't say, "hmmmm, let's see, we had a low inventory this month because of the big demand for rugby shirts, and the electric bill was higher than last month and we just hired 2 new workers so I'm going to charge you $$$$...." If dealerships weren't making a profit you'd see them boarded up with for sale signs on them. I've never seen a dealership closed other than to move to another location. It's funny how that happens? But you keep worrying about those poor dealerships who are scrapping by, just like those poor baseball owners who shell out $700 million to buy a team only to "lose" money.

robr2

A car is not needed to survive in this world. Many people in big cities with good transit systems live very well without owning a car.

Also, car dealers make money from other sources than just new car sales. Used cars, service, parts all add to the revenue stream.

b_bazinet

Not sure where you live, but unless you have a car in the U.S., other than the big Northeast cities, you are a prisoner of your home. I lived in South Florida for 3 years and for a month I was without a car, it was impossible to get anywhere! Yes, you do NEED a car, transit doesn't take you to the Wal-Mart out in the burbs, and most transit systems are complete horror shows.

imidazol97

My point is that dealers make more profit than the simple selling price minus invoice. The have to make more profit to stay open. You can't operate a business with all the requisite people for accounting, selling (commissions), profit ( salaries?) for the owners, owning the property and buildings, insurance, utilities, advertising, lawyers, and a lot of missing I'm sure, WITHOUT making more than $500 per car. My point is there are most "rewards" to the dealer. Right now there are push monies for clearing out leftover models in various brands, most cash on harder-to-move models.

I don't know what buying shirts at GAP (I pick up things at Bass and VanHeusen on sale) or Happy Meals has to do with this bbazinet... Maybe I miss your point, but I think you misunderstood mine.

BBazinet: I do agree about cars being requisite in most of the county for most people.

Aggiexxxx: I won't even grace your rant with response. What are you talking about???

Profit is selling price minus cost of product. NET profit considers expenses... in my book. To try to stay on Accord topic, this is true for Hondas also!

robr2

I live in the Boston suburbs and drive into the city everyday because I have parking at my office. My wife drives to a commuter rail station and takes a train to Boston because she doesn't have parking. If I wanted to I could walk about 15 minutes and catch an express bus that stops 15 minutes from my office or take the train as well. People who live in Providence can take the same commuter rail to work into Boston and soon people in Southern NH will have the same option.

But plenty of people live in Boston and commute out to the suburbs to work. They also use rapid transit to go to K-Mart, Home Depot, big super Grocery Stores, the airport, clubs, the beach, dining at both local and chain restaurants, malls, et al. We each choose to live in a manner that may or may not require a car. Making a blanket statement that everyone needs a car is your opinion.

As for only in the northeast can people live without a car, try Chicago, San Francisco, Seattle or Toronto - all can be car free places to live. Keep in mind that I'm not a car hater by any means and I realize that public transit isn't for everyone. But it is an alternative, and yes even a preference, for millions in North America.

berbel

Yes, the MXV4's do last longer than many others be-
cause they are manufactured with harder rubber com-
pounds which are less prone to wear. Because of the
harder compounds, they have less rolling resistance
which also, in tandem with other factors (e.g.,
lighter weight oil) provide better mileage. This is
one of the reasons Honda designated them for use on
the Accord. The type of tire used on a car does
contribute to the "feel" of the driving experience.
If you doubt that, remove the oem tires from a
Porsche 911 Carrera twin turbo, mount the car with
the MXV4's and then try to drive it the same way
you drove it with the oems. The proof is in the
pudding, my friend.

berbel

b_bazinet

I grew up outside of Boston so I know how good their public transit is, unfortunately it's the exception not the rule. If you drive "intown" then why are you even discussing public transit regardless of having your own parking spot. The fact that you drive your car only REINFORCES the statement I made about having to have a car. I have friends who live intown that don't even own a car, but they are the extreme exception. Toronto, San Fran, how about Phoenix, Atlanta, San Diego, Miami, ever use public transit there?

As far as shirts, you are the one bringing up profit margins and markups about shirts and buying happy meals from mickey d's, what point did you miss? You were trying to show that they exist in these other "products" and trying to somehow equate that the car dealers don't make as
much because they don't have as much of a markup. My point was that it does exist with autos, and they do make plenty of money, and I've never seen a fast food franchise owner live quite as well as a car dealer!

robr2

"If you drive "intown" then why are you even discussing public transit regardless of having your own parking spot. The fact that you drive your car only REINFORCES the statement I made about having to have a car."

In reality, I do need to have a car because of the way I choose to live. You need to have a car because of the way that you choose to live. We could both choose to live in such a way that would not require a car. But saying that everyone needs a car is a false statement. That's my point.

isellhondas

Well, I guess it had to come out sooner or later. You are correct...I'm a phony.

I've gotta go scrub now...I've got a guy in the O.R. with a gall bladder that needs to come out!

imidazol97

>#11610 of 11612 robr2 & imidazol97 by b_bazinet Aug 19, 2003 (12:01 pm)
> As far as shirts, you are the one bringing up profit margins and markups about shirts and >buying happy meals from mickey d's, what point did you miss?

Please show me where I mentioned [non-permissible content removed] and happy meals. For your convenience I'll duplicate my original post.

"#11600 of 11612 Ah...jg... Re11595 by imidazol97 Aug 19, 2003 (8:00 am)
 If you believe there is not extra money from the company for the dealer to sell out 03 models and the only profit is in the holdback ($460-$500) for the dealer to keep, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you!!!"

What point did you miss -- no shirts, no happy meals.

>You were trying to show that they exist in these other "products" and trying to somehow >equate that the car dealers don't make as much because they don't have as much of a >markup. My point was that it does exist with autos,and they do make plenty of money, and >I've never seen a fast food franchise owner live quite as well as a car dealer!

The statement says there is profit beyond selling price minus invoice. A local dealership ad just added a statement that invoice is not necessarily an indicator of a dealer's true cost at the end of his radio ad.
Are you mixing up my statement with some statement by aggieXXXX which seemed confused as to what I said?

isellhondas

There is no "extra money" from Honda for selling 2003 Accords.

b_bazinet

My bad, it was someone else that wrote about the shirts and mcdonalds stuff, they had your name in the subject and I mistook it for your post. You kept posting back so I took Aggies original comments as your own.

I knew I'd get Isellhondas to come clean!

b_bazinet

OK, there is no extra money from honda for selling 03 accords, then tell us all in non-carsaleman world how it is that you can sell an 03 below invoice or at invoice? I'm not asking why some other dealership would do it, to avoid generalizing an answer, I'm asking why YOU would do it?

aggie1995

I think b_bazinet was replying to my e-mail...but I;ll get to that in a minute.

"My point is that dealers make more profit than the simple selling price minus invoice...... My point is there are most "rewards" to the dealer. "

My response is prove it. Remember that car dealerships also have other profit centers Service, Parts, Auto Body, Used Car Sales (Bifg $$ here), Finance, Accessories. These all contribute to the bottom line profit that a dealership earns. Your right, if a dealer only made $500 on every car that would not be enough to keep them in business. But $500 could be all they earn on the sale of a new car excluding accessories and financing. Why do you have such a hard time believing that?

"I don't know what buying shirts at GAP (I pick up things at Bass and VanHeusen on sale) or Happy Meals has to do with this bbazinet..."

I think this was responding to me but I'll try and clarify it for you anyway. Even if you bought the shirt on sale for 50% off, how do you know you got a good price? How do you know that the store still didn't make 70% profit on that item? Why does that not infuriate you the same way?

"Profit is selling price minus cost of product. NET profit considers expenses... in my book"

Wrong Book.

Re:B_Bazinet

"Here's why your argument is flawed, if I don't want to buy a shirt at a store markup I don't buy it."

But you buy it somewhere else right? Then at that store what markup are you paying? You have no idea. So you paid $5 less are you sure you got a good deal. What if you paid $30 for a shirt that only cost the store $5 for materials plus $3 labor and overhead? Did you get a good deal?

"I don't need a shirt from the Gap to get from point a to point b. A car is something totally different than a shirt, shoes, happy meal, etc.... You NEED a car to live in this world, to go to work, to earn a income, to get to the store to buy that shirt, it is something you CAN NOT live without."

Same applies to clothing & food. Show up at work Wednesday without a shirt on and post back here at the end of the day. Tell me what your boss said right before he said "You're Fired". Next time you get hungry skip that meal..you don't want to pay the outrageous markups at restaurants and grocery stores. In fact skip all of them until you learn how to subsist off of wild berries and grow your own crops.

"but cars are the only commodity where there is a shell game with the consumer."

Are you sure about that? I worked in construction and we routinely modified our pricing based on the customer. I now work in management consulting and the same applies when contracting for professional services.

"Unlike a happy meal or some air jordans, dealerships can pick and choose who to sell a car to based on how much they're willing to accept."

See Above

"The person behind the register at the Gap doesn't say, "hmmmm, let's see, we had a low inventory this month because of the big demand for rugby shirts, and the electric bill was higher than last month and we just hired 2 new workers so I'm going to charge you $$$$...."

The person at the register does not but someone at their corporate office does. Aren't prices higher when the new styles come out for a seasonal item? Aren't there some items that never seem to go on sale? What about clearance time....I've seen some two shirts same style but different colors priced differently. Why? Supply and demand...noone wanted the lime green color.

And items like electricity and labor are fixed costs that are budgeted into the equation at the beginning of the year. So don't be fooled into thinking that it isn't affecting the prices you pay.

"If dealerships weren't making a profit you'd see them boarded up with for sale signs on them."

See note above about other profit centers than just new car sales.

In short no flaws in my argument....at least for today.

And to keep it on topic. Honda Rules!

pat

Accord. The subject is the Honda ACCORD.

This ain't the Smart Shopper board!!

Everybody needs to calm down now, please. You missed a relevant post in all this arguing - can anyone respond to steven39 Aug 19, 2003 9:22am?

carguy58

I went by Hillside Honda in Hillside, NJ and there is more than enough Accord's sitting there. As we all know if Honda had trouble selling Accord's they would discount them. Honda never discounts or gives cash back so Honda must be meeting its demand with the 03 Accord. In Conclusion this means dealers must not being stuck with excess inventory of Accord's. As we all know like anything else price purchases of a car is all about supply and demand.

badgerfan

I don't own a Honda, and never have negotiated for one and am not involved in car sales in any way, however, it is basic knowledge that invoice price is not what the dealer paid for the car, so they can indeed sell it for invoice and still make money. There is holdback usually about 3% of MSRP for most makes, and other incentives based on volume sales, etc. that the dealer receives. Also, for those trading in vehicles, the dealer will likely either resell or auction off and make money on that car, so some of the profit in the deal is made in the trade in.
  
There is nothing "magic" about invoice being the rock bottom price a dealer will have to have.

I frankly do not understand what all the fussing is about on what the dealer is making on a car. Bargain hard with as many dealers as you have patience or the ability to drive to and deal with, get your best deal and be done with it. Start with invoice, subtract any published customer rebates, subtract the holdback and then you will likely know you absolutely will not get the car that cheaply. Edmunds can supply you with these numbers.

If the particular car is in such demand that you can't get what you think is a good deal, move on to another brand or wait until supply catches up so there will be deals. There are plenty of good competitors out there.

pat

Okay, that's one and counting.

Further off-topic (or topical and just plain rude) messages will be removed.

Any comments you feel you must make may be emailed to me, not posted here.

Thank you.

bigsweaty

Anybody know where I could get the invoice prices on the 2004 Accords? I'm starting to get quotes and would like to know the invoice.

imidazol97

Best source is right here on edmunds in new cars. They also give a TMV price indicating
what cars are selling for in your region -- apparently somewhere between MSRP and invoice on the ones I've checked.

96accord

The true invoice price for any vehicle is not avaliable anywhere except from the manufacturer and the dealership managers or owners. The invoice that is avaliable on edmunds or anyother source is not the true invoice price and dealers do get incentives based on the units they move and other incentives which are not not public knowledge. Manufacturers do pass on rebates to the dealers which are not advertised. Its just common sense dealers make money selling new cars and nobody including the salesman know what the actual cost of the car is. The invoice which the dealer shows you does not mean anything is all a sham. How can anyone in business like a car dealership run on profits of a couple of hundred dollars on car when they have such a high cost of doing business. If anyone thinks he can find out for certain the actual price paid by the dealer to the mfg after incentives etc is mistaken. In anycase cars in this country are overpriced because of the high cost of doing business which includes labour etc etc and they also factor in the clumsy lawsuits that manufcaturer are faced with. Besides you don't even get vehicles with the best specs or features. Remember its the consumer that drives the market.

Happy Motoring

chikoo

>>>> If the particular car is in such demand that you can't get what you think is a good deal, move on to another brand or wait until supply catches up so there will be deals. There are plenty of good competitors out there. <<<<

very rightly said.

I moved on and got myself a Mazda6s/v6/MT/leather/moonroof/ABS+EBD/TCS/ loaded for a price I like.

chikoo

>>>There is no "extra money" from Honda for selling 2003 Accords.<<<

what do u do with cars that "remain unsold", if any?

isellhondas

We are already scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Some sell faster than others, of course, but they all sell. And, again, there is ZERO "extra money" on Accords.

I have to wonder why the "experts" here think that?

Of course, the 2.9 financing could be called an incentive I suppose.