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Comments
After watching the show, you have a sense of the abilities that the Germans build into their cars due to the circumstances they find themselves in.
I posted, over on the LPS forum, some thougths about the new Q7 and my drive in my lowly 255HP A6 today. I agree with Shipo (and happy b-day) I am finding less and less reason to consider the 8 cylinder versions of anything anymore.
But, when I move to Montana (not really), I'll be back to the need for that big gas sucking V8.
The German cars are about speed and performance not simply 0-100kph quickness and a floaty ride to 75MPH.
Are they worth $50K?
No doubt.
One of my definitions of marketing is "turning a want into a need".
Is a BMW worth 2 Camrys? Thats an individual decision. Just be aware that BMW is spending twice as much as Toyota to make you think it is a good decision.
Happy Birthday Shipo. We're both Taurus'.
Regards...JL
German cars are not about HP. Yeah, the Japanese can have the maximum horsepower but you have to redline it and listen to the whine of the engine just to use it.
With the BMW's the torque is the key and it is all available at lower RPMs.
I don't think we even need to go into the discussion of how the BMWs are just more solid cars.
Now now before everyone starts yelling at me. I've owned both (Acura TL-S, Mazda 3, Nissan, etc...) and I keep going back to the BMWs.
If you want HP, then go buy a Japanese car. If you want the ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE, then there is only ONE way to go... BMW
Happy belated Shipo...
Stacy
What an incredible driving car. I look forward to driving it everyday and like someone mentioned earlier, I have not last second of sleep wondering if I should have purchased the Toyota, Acura, MB or Lexus. Everyone has to make their own decisions but I know I made the right one. I just love it....LC
One of my definitions of marketing is "turning a want into a need".
Is a BMW worth 2 Camrys? Thats an individual decision. Just be aware that BMW is spending twice as much as Toyota to make you think it is a good decision."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Honda sell several times the number of cars BMW does here in North America? If so then all that $500/$1,000 figure means is that Honda has more cars to spread their advertising costs across. Said another way, Honda is most likely spending much more in advertising than BMW.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The other side of your position is SAAB at over $2000 per vehicle.
In the end overhead is overhead, and the buyer pays for it.
I'm old enough to have read "Hidden Persuaders" & other similar books from the late 50's, so tend to not do what I'm told (in general, but particularly by the advertising industry).
The Lincoln LS I drive today had in its early dealer literature the statement that people who buy one are probably misfits (they use less abrasive words). They're right.
All that aside, the 3 looks like my next vehicle. . .for the moment.
Did the devil do it?
As a car nut I would love to have a V8 powered BMW, but the straight six has more than enough power for me. I'd even be happy with a 184 hp E46 325i. I have enough trouble keeping my 4cyl Prelude under 80mph.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I don't think Honda spends two cents on a Camry. :P
I was disappointed with most of the responses I got though... all too defensive and not much rational there (sorry, said what I read). I am 39, married with 2 kids, drive a 97 camry V6 for 9 years, thinking about my next car. That camry is now worth about 2.5% of my annual household salary or 0.5% of my net asset. So I do have some freedom of choice.
I drove or sit in all of them, For an automatic tran., driving under 80MPH on a highway, I am hard-pressed to know which car I am sitting on. Where I live (SF metro) doesn't have much of any place (highways, <80MPH) to utilize the full potential of the car either. So, the only reason for me to spend 50K on an AUTO trans. sedan (instead of said a porche, M3, or even a 325 manual) is... well I was hoping you can fill those blank, not meant to be a troll.
And why are other manufacters immitating them?
If the bass mouth Audi was so awful, why did Audi have a record year?
I have been a long time Mercedes guy until I traded my 2001 E430 for a 2003 Audi allroad biturbo 6spd manual that was 7 grand less (new)! Why, The mercedes was boring! I got a car with less HP and am much happier! THe audi is great.
Now Audi does not make a manual tranny in anything bigger than the A4. So I m looking at either the X3 or a 5 series sedan.
I tested a 525 (auto only at dealer) and without looking at the spec times I found the smaller engine entirely satisfying. Why? Cuz it handled excellent!
A part of me is still a bit of a HP whore and might consider the 530. I also have to consider AWD issue even though IM in central North Carolina.
I don't care for all the tech toys so important on many cars. Navigation seems to be the benchmark gotta have accessory. Rear cameras and active cruise also. I have Active cruise on my Sienna Minivan because it was packaged.
I want a car with soul. Not perfections, not insulated from the world, but an interactive driving experience. Not a 7 series, S-class or LS lexus. Damm nice cars! If I were spending that kinda of money I'd get a M5, or E55, or Audi RS class.
By the way, pictures today showing some new sheetmetal changes on the 5series, this for 2007?
Check this picture out.
link title
While the picture is rather small, it looks like my two most significant complaints about the Banglesque E60 have been erased, namely the headlights and the trunk lid/rear lighting.
Now if I could only arrange things so that my annual milage drops from my current 30K+ to my more normal 12-15K, I might once again be in the market for a ride in the LPS class. :-/
Best Regards,
Shipo
Your everywhere!
Its a very nice car, good on gas for AWD, comfortable and does the job.
Im very impressed! Why?
I paid 12k for it!
I drove it for a few weeks and was thinking maybe Im spending too much on cars!
Then I drove my 03 audi allroad and it all came back to me why. CUz its really really nice! Not necessary mind you, does not get me there any differently, but its a luxury I choose to indulge.
0-60 is overrated. "it got a Hemi" is not the end all for most cars. If it is, then get max HP for the money and be happy! Life is short.
I think they made a mistake by labeling it an M5 (as do others) but it looks like the next 5 series.
Is this a 2007 thing? Its been 3 years since the current 5 is out.
The new e60 styling first caught my eye and, after one test drive, I was hooked! The excitement of driving the BMW continues to this day, which is something that the Camry never offered.
I was told today that I will be allowed to test drive one in 5 weeks. I am out of the market at that point by about 19 months, but I plan to take a nice long test drive of an 07 530xi -- apparently they are pretty rare with a stick.
Given a choice, at either 25K or 50K, I wouldn't even bother with the automatic unless it becomes impossible to acquire one otherwise.
The Infiniti M was NOT my first choice at the time I ordered one to my specs, placed my money down and began the countdown (120 days.) But it was darn close to the Audi A6 in terms of content, feel, etc that for what would have been some $200+ less per month on a lease, I just couldn't remain with Audi. When Audi's price came in a bit less than the Infiniti, I did go with my marginal first choice.
No BMW 5x series was yet on the market although within weeks of my Audi acquisition 530xi's (but NOT in stick) came to market.
My choice, today would probably still be between the Audi A6, the BMW 530xi and the Infiniti M35x. TODAY, were I to buy, the BMW 530xi with the stick shift would be the choice. Further test drives of the others would be a waste of petrol.
The issue then again becomes both availability and price as I have driven, extensively, the three of these cars all equipped with an autotrans (Audi's 6spd, BMW's 6spd and Infiniti's 5spd.) Equip them with premium and technology packages (more or less the offerings these guys provide) and the behind the wheel experience is quite the same.
Only the Audi offers a sport suspension -- but then again it may have the greatest need for it. The BMW 530xi sport package is a joke and the 5X's with the autotrans seem slightly less peppy than either the Audi or the Infiniti.
The cool toys that have to do with performance are not ready for prime time apparently according to BMW's marketing types.
Yet, oddly, the BMW alone can be had with the stick shift but sans performance package. The Audi can be upgraded to SLine status which this year bumps the wheel size to 19" and it alone for the same (less actually) money than the BMW can be had with a V8 that is among the best sounding engines ever made by the human race.
The M can be had with the V8 option but sans AWD, ditto, today, the Bimmer.
The dynamics of the BMW are superior. But, heck, the Infiniti M35X with the upgraded wheel tire package is darn near its equal, specially since the BMW is not allowed to be had with any suspension upgrades. The Audi in SLine trim -- to me -- begs for a manual transmission or at least the DSG offering. Alas none is offered.
The BMW if you are leasing is likely to be seriously subvented so its minimal $5,000 premium over the other two really is darn near insignificant.
It is as if these car companies all get together in Iceland or somewhere and agree what they will offer to the market "boys, there's plenty of biz for us all, let's not put all the good stuff in one car, let's make the choice more shall we say, interesting."
Way back when even I was in graduate school in the late 1970's taking Marketing 601 or whatever they called it, the concept of "mass customization." was being discussed as the next new thing.
I want my "fill in the blank" to come thusly: sport suspension, great 6 cylinder FSI engine, manual or DSG transmission, All Wheel Drive, Servotronic steering, backup camera AND parktronic, front and rear heated seats if I order the cold weather package and never having to wonder what package hides the in car garage door opener, and so on.
The era of differentiation by style rather than content and performance dawned not all that many months ago (2004 seems about right), and it has continued its forward (and downward to the lesser cars) progress.
Sometimes it is a bit frustrating though -- why can't we just configure the darn things the way we want?
:confuse:
Thanks.
I fall into the latter group so I don't think BMW maintenance is high. If you take care of your car, the only work done by a shop are the "major repairs" and only because they have the proper resources to address the problem. As for the BMW Inspection I & II, I don't bother. There is nothing they do during those costly inspections I can't do myself. Just my opinion & mind set regarding auto maintenance. I've owned three new BMWs since 1992 including a 2003 530i and have never had a problem doing it this way.
Hope this helps...JL
Due to the lack of 530i's in stock due to the close of the model year, I had to order a 2007 from Germany last month. The car just arrived. I made a dumb mistake in not ordering the sport package, but I wanted a more comfortable and quiet ride (coming from a Mercedes), and I heard that the run flat tires were very noisy. My views have now changed a little.
Now I have a set of ugly "17" wheels (OEM 530i). They look like my kitchen mixer blades.
I want to buy a new set of replica OEM #124 wheels (and/or tires). The #124's are the sport package wheels on the 550i. The irony is that (because I am leasing my 530i) my cost for the new wheels and tires ($1400) will actually be higher than had I just ordered the sport package, and I am not even getting the shadow trim or 20-way seat. No use crying over spilled milk.
Does anyone have any recommendations on tire size (starting with the base model suspension)? The 18" wheels look much better. Should I try to replicate the staggered sizes for the 550i sport package? Stay with 17"? Most replica wheels come in 17 x 8 sizes, which means that I could salvage the 225/50R17 tires (just barely). These tires cost $800 to replace in 18" sizes.
If I want to go further, can I change the springs to lower the car 1" to even better match the sport package.
I learned my lesson when not ordering the sport package, but if I can get the 550i sport wheels rather than the 530i sport wheels, I think that I will still have an upgrade.
What is the consensus for how to go here?
Best regards,
Richard
There are ways to save money, but a 5 does cost more to maintain than a 3.
Anyway, I actually bought the ext. maintenance program for $1,395 because my projected budget for a 3 series for the 2 years that CPO covers was about $2,000, now that it seems a 5 seires will cost more. So I figured that it should save me some money there.
BTW, when I was with the dealer finance dept, I was told that the ext. maintenance plan for a 5 series cost $1,595. I questioned it and they quickly dropped it to $1,395. That number sound about right because I have read it in some forum. The good part is that I finance it as well with the low APR">
So are the V10's.
But the inline 6's are their bread and butter and they are excellent too.
-Paul
I'd be very interested to hear about your opinions after your test drive.
I called BimmersRUs and explained the situation. At first the owner, Greg, said the put the full synthetic oil in the car. He said they made a mistake when keying it on the ticket. After additional pressure, he changed his mind and he changed the oil again, putting full synthetic in. He also changed the plugs to the Bosch FGR7DQP which are the ones I initially paid for. I also had the antifreeze and brake fluid changed when I took it back. He split the cost on the work.
They recommended that I replace the AC belt and the centerlink (tierod) including a 4-wheel alignment.
One week after I get the car home, the belts are squealing and I notice that the belt sounds like it is slipping when I put the car in gear. I also noticed that the plastic cover under the car behind the front wheels were pulled off during the service, but was not put back on correctly. I now have the plastic pieces hanging down.
Needless to say, I did not have a good experience using an independent shop. I learned my lesson. It may cost a little more to have a dealer perform the service, but I have a lot more trust in them. Plaza Motors is the dealer I used for the past 4 years with huge satisfaction and I will be back for all future service needs. I spent $2100 with Bimmers R Us. If I paid $400 more for to a dealer, it would be worth it. Less hassle, plus I can trust the parts they are putting in the car are genuine.
I used this forum 6 years ago (2 years prior to purchase) to research the 5-Series. I am appreciative of the knowledge of the posters. I chose the car that was best for me based on how I like to drive.
It sure was beneficial for me to understand the car from a (fairly) unbiased perspective. The posters dispelled many of the myths I had about BMW and also RWD. I thought I needed AWD (it is unnecessary). I also thought BMW were somewhat unreliable and super expensive to maintain. While it is a little more expensive, the parts are much higher quality than most cars. I understand why the parts are more expensive. If you own a BMW, you probably understand everytime you hit your brakes. What other car has a feel like that? The cost of the parts are sure to be more expensive.
Happy driving!!
I too have had some negative non dealer service issues; but I have also had some not so positive dealer issues, too. The difference is the dealer seems to -- so far -- always be ready, willing and able to make things right.
Funny, the issue I had was with a simple test I gave an indie: oil and filter change on an Audi.
Audis seem to require a body shop to change fluids and this indie couldn't seem to find all the parts when he put things back together and when I found some oil drops was likewise not pleased with having to disassemble the car again to tighten or whatever had to be done.
I am now "not wealthy enough" to use an indie.
These cars are way to expensive to risk to a non dealer.
And, this is NOT a universal truth, but a general truth.
BTW..I love the CCA. The Roundel mag is a nice read. I wish I had more time to doing club events.
There's an extended maintenance plan and there's an extended warranty. One covers routine service, and the other is for failures. Which did you buy?
It all depends on where you have the work done a which shocks you use. How do you know the rear shocks are worn out? At 130K my wife's 1997 528i needed a set of front struts, but my dealer as well as my local indie shop both said the rear ones were fine.
Beware of the cut price vendor.
2007 525i
Steptronic
Premium Package
Premium Sound Package
Bi-Xenon Lights
Navigation System
MSRP: $51,870
Invoice: $48,335
36 Months lease
12K miles / year
$3,000 drive off
$621 including tax is the best offer I've received so far. Should I take it?
If I calculate it with:
62% Residual
0.00225 Money Factor
8.5% Tax
I was hoping to get the negotiate price to $47,642 ($693 below invoice) and monthly payment to $580. Is this too much to ask?
Currently, I'm also leasing a 2006 Mercedes E350 (MSRP: $59,500). My monthly payment is $700 including tax. I got the car at the end of April in 2005, paid $3200 drive off. Since the 525i is almost $8000 cheaper than the Mercedes, I don't think I should pay over $600 per month. But this is my first bimmer, so I don't know...Thanks in advance for any help/inputs!
The deal without the $3000 is fine, or if the $3000 does NOT come from your bank account.
This is a lease, there is NO value, only negative value in paying into the lease up front. If you total the car 15 minutes after you drive off, guess what happens? The car is completely paid for, 100%, minus your $3K.
Run away, run away, unless the deal with the $3K off is a cap cost reduction NOT paid for by you.
How much should I put down then? How much do ppl normally put down or is there a minimum? Thank you :confuse:
1. Single or multiple refundable security deposits.
2. First month's lease payment.
3. Plate fee(s).
4. "Get" (acquisition or bank) fee (usually $350.)
Recent thoughts for those who want to reduce the mo pay without the risk involved in a cap cost reduction: multiple refundable security deposits.
Not a universal, but, when utlilzed here is what can happen:
Sec dep $600, e.g.
Five sec deps $3,000.
Mo pay is reduced (but not the same as a down payment.)
When lease is termed out, sec dep is yours (unless you have over and above'd the car -- i.e., excessive wear and tear.)
A blended way to reduce your mo pay, but on a lease where the down payment is placed at risk and is never used to build equity of any kind.
If you must put $3K down for whatever reason, consider making it in the form of multiple refundable security deposits instead.
I have read about up to 9 times sec deps for this purpose and the downside, of course, is the loss of the interest you might make if the money were instead placed in a savings account of some kind. At current rates, the amount you might lose even on $3K is no where near as great as the certainty of losing the entire $3K if it were in the form of a cap cost reduction.
Check it out.
Good luck.
Keep us posted.
:shades:
Thank you.
2007 530i (Silver Gray, Beige Leather)
Steptronic
Premium Package
Sports Package
Park Distance Control
Navigation
MSRP: $56,570
Invoice: $52,250
In Short, I paid $3,188 Drive-off and monthly payment is $758.88 (including tax)
Here are the details:
Final Negotiated Price: $53,780 (which is $1,531 above invoice, this also includes the $825 acquistion fee)
36 Month Lease / 12k Miles per year
Cap Cost Reduction: $1,830
Tax on Cap Cost Reduction: $156
1st Month Pmt: $759
License Fee: $407
Others: $37
Drive-off: $3,188
Cap-Cost: $51,951
Lease Term: 36
Residual: 61.0%
Money Factor: 0.002476136 (based on my calculation)
Tax Rate: 8.5%
Monthly Payment: $758.88
Best luck shopping everyone!
The folks gathered around the table enthusiastically shout, "Hi Shipo!"
And then I start to bare my soul...
As some of you might know, my business partner and I are in the midst of launching a new business and as such, the whole "New car" thing for both of us got tossed. So, with a tear in my eye, I returned my beautiful Sapphire Black/Black Leather 2002 530i 5-Speed, with PP, SP, Xenon and Premium Audio at lease end last year. Not too long after that tragic event, I picked up a "short term" contract that was about 50 miles from home, and that required me to enlist the services of our spare car, a 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan to tote me back and forth. Well, nearly a year and 30,000 miles later I find myself REALLY missing my 5er, however, now that I'm driving nearly three times the miles that I normally drive (with that likely to go up to 4x as my contract keeps getting extended AND my client is moving another 20 miles or so down the road next year), leasing or buying new is roughly akin to financial suicide, automotively speaking.
So, with all of that in mind, I've decided that I simply cannot stomach buying a FWD appliance and while the DGC is the cheapest thing going (can buy LOTS of gas given that there is no car payment and very little maintenance), I want something nicer, and so into "Frog Kiss" mode I've gone.
Criteria: 1999 or 2000 BMW 528i, any color (preferably metallic as they seem to age better), 5-Speed, PP, SP, Sport Seats (apparently they had to be ordered separately from the SP back then), less than 80,000 miles, full maintenance history and within 500 miles of southern New Hampshire.
Geez, you'd think that I'm asking for the world as I've probably looked at an easy 500 cars by now (online of course), and I've only seen three cars that met all of the above criteria (and a few others that might but the information on the car was incomplete). Of those 500 cars, I'm sure that some were cross-listed so let's say that I've actually seen 450. Of those cars, I've seen roughly 10% with manual transmissions. Of those remaining 45 cars, about 10 have had the PP & SP, but the wrong seats. And then there were the three that met the criteria...
The first one only had about 40,000 miles on it but it was being listed at $32,000! Yikes!
The second one had fake and ill fitting M5 bumpers, quad exhausts and horrid wheels. Yuk!
The last one had an aftermarket audio system, including a dash mounted DVD player. Geez, you'd think that someone who wants to drive a stick wouldn't feel the need to watch movies while they drive (messing up the dash in the process).
So, should I:
- Hold out and keep searching?
- Keep driving the DGC until it literally falls apart (I figure that will take another 4 years at this rate)?
- Cave in and go with my original plan and get an Audi A3?
Best Regards,
Shipo
The price seems to be a typo. Retail on such a car (MY 2000) is around $22K. I would look into it further.
Maybe you could broaden the possibilities by being less demanding with the options. Aren't the stick and SP what you really want?
Of course there are worse things in life but I feel sorry for you having to drive that van. They have to be the sloppiest handling things on the face of the earth next to a Hertz rental truck.
My wife and I recently drove a new A3, though and both of us remarked it was a heckuv a lot closer to an A4 (until you looked over your shoulder) -- we were driving the 2.0T version with a stick shift.
We did not drive but did get into a new 325xi (which, for reasons I cannot remember at this time, seemed to be about the same "lease price" -- as the A3 -- this, of course given your situation may or may not translate into a real number that make $ense at this time.)
With respect to leasing, BMW makes it pretty "interesting" to lease their cars and run over the miles.
Make your deal, make your deal at 45,000 miles for 3 years.
Within 39 months, e.g., you can -- at $.16 mile -- buy more miles, and ONCE you can spread those miles out over the lease payment; subsequent adjustments will be billed 30 days after the fact. You can keep the full maint and full warranty alive beyond 50K if you want.
If you go used (but NOT CPO'd?) your up front cost (in cash or on a monthly basis) will theoretically be lower, but of course the chances of repair costs sooner rather than later will be out there and, unless the car IS CPO'd, your wallet runs the financial risk.
The outlay on a newer car -- if leased with the above considerations of prepayment of overages -- may or may not be less, but the risk for at least 50K miles is nil and you will likely be able to delay the cost of brakes and tires and belts, etc. that may crop up sooner on the used vehicle.
The NEW 3's seem, interior wise, to "feel" no smaller than the USED 5's (that you have described.) If you are in the north eastern part of the US, winter is certainly an issue and the new 325xi copes very well with that.
Of course, here in SW Ohio as the 2007's loom on the near horizon, the prices and subventing seem very attractive -- but but but, the number of cars on any dealer's lot that are manual transmissions continues to shrink (from small to darn near nil.)
I don't know if you could actually order a new one as you want and get the kind of subventing that is being offered on in stock and "last year's" models.
A3 2.0T's are FWD -- but often have the manual transmissions.
The A3's, mostly, will have the full maint or at least it can be elected for $500. Audi does not offer the, "I changed my mind" on miles option either.
But a free of cost (besides gas, more or less) DGC is attractive and I can relate to the needs of the biz when in startup mode. Been there, done that, and doing it again in the IT world -- well, here we go again.
Makes me muse, "I remember what it was like to be rich."
Keep us posted. :shades: