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Saab 9-5 Sedan

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Comments

  • jayannjayann Posts: 1
    I am considering the Saab 9-5 for my next car and I have some questions for the 9-5 owners. I've read a lot of positive comments about the 9-5 on this site, but one negative comment really concerns me. This is the engine stalling problem. What has Saab done to correct this? Is this going to be a concern on the 2001 models? Because I have young children safety and reliability are very important to me. I want a car I can trust in any situation. If anyone can tell me more about the engine stalling problem (which engine)and if this was corrected by Saab I'll be grateful. Thanks.
  • saabbersaabber Posts: 84
    As you can see, this site contains mainly those who love their saab and take offense if anything negative (despite it being true is said). On the other hand, I am the only one who states negative things about the saab here without concern that I will be personally attacked.

    The stalling is due to a faulty computer system (ECU) so it affects all models. Saab states that it is recalling earlier year models, but as you can see from comments on the www.saabnet.com site, many are stating (within the last week) that their computer has been replaced several times. This means potentially stalling each time, and having another date with the service manager. Because the only comments you will get from some (e.g., Dkovacs) on this site are excuses and praise for saab, I would go over to the saabnet site for real comments.
  • I owned a nightmare Saab from 1976-82, when I finally traded it for a Volvo after my boyfriend towed my Saab with his Volvo to the dealership! That Saab cost me $4,000 in EXTRAORDINARY repairs during the 5 yr period I owned it. I've only owned Volvos between '82 until '99 (which never stranded me anywhere), when I bought a 9-5. Yes, there have been problems with the 9-5, but thus far, all have been covered by warranty. Let's see, the battery has been replaced twice; the sunroof replaced due to "swelling" that made it difficult to open or close; the driver's door speaker replaced for malfunction; the SID had to be replaced; the clear bra bubbled and was replaced; paint chipped right off a rear quarter panel, requiring repair; and the ECM is as we speak being replaced. The only problems which affected driveability were the battery problems. HOWEVER, without a warranty, one would have to acknowledge that my $31,700 automobile that just now has 15,100 miles on it would be prohibitively costly to own for anyone for a lick of sense. And, although I truly enjoy my Saab, I am beginning to think about relinquishing it before the warranty runs out. I think past experience taught me a bitter lesson and in all fairness, has made me extremely wary of owning a car that is expensive on other-than-ordinary upkeep costs, especially since my average cost for owning Volvos was $350 per year, with several years' maintenance costing under $200 and one years' maintenance being around $800. The Saab's key fob size and lack of storage space in and around the front seats (and comfortability of the seats themselves according to some here) are merely irritations, but I figure that everything I've experienced teaches me new lessons to reflect on when I purchase my next car. So look at your Saabs for what they are and learn from them; learn what you will tolerate and won't; what you require from an auto; what features you simply must have again and those you wish you had now, and use that knowledge when next you buy a car. Remember, guys, that's what your Saabs are and that's all they are---cars.

    Saaber, thanks for explaining to bretfaz why I included the Ford article. You hit the nail on the head. And yes, I DO understand that the Saab recalls are being done in a much more timely manner and independent of gov't requirements than were the Ford recalls. I'm not dense. That wasn't the point of sharing the article. I wanted to let you-all know, based on previous posts, that at least one judge (in CA) feels strongly that a car that can randomly stop in traffic is a hazard indeed. And I don't appreciate bretfaz telling me not to post anything not strictly pertinent to a Saab, especially when the article DOES RELATE to the discussion held here having to do with whether the defective ECM promotes a hazard.
  • Forgot to tell you guys: my 9-5 is also having its front fog light replaced (not a warranty item), and no, I have NO IDEA when or how it was broken, but it will cost me $210 to replace it!!! And I asked about a protective grid to cover the front fog lights and the service guy suggested that would be a GREAT way to make $$$ because no, no grid or any protective cover is available for the fog lights (although they are available for the headlights).
  • saabbersaabber Posts: 84
    Your post got in right ahead of mine. Thanks for sharing your honest experience. I fully agree with you and this is just--a car. Sometimes that gets lost here with the "ego" thing for some here.
  • saabbersaabber Posts: 84
    That was a little too "arrogant" for me to say that I am the only one who states negative things about the saab without the fear of being personally attacked. It is obvious that there are many here who have valid concerns about their 9-5 and choose to be less vocal about those problems. Then, there are some who are more vocal than others.

    My apologies.
  • dskidski Posts: 414
    Saaber >>Yeah, I can understand how some hate that there is someone here who states negative things about a saab. If I were not here, this site would primarily consist of those talking about how they love their saab which is the greatest car they ever owned.<<

    I have to respectfully dissagree with that. Those of us who are happy don't hate negative comments. The reality IMO is that some here have become reluctant to state the things "we" are not happy with or have had trouble with because you have tended to polorize things here to a great degree. Many of us have become understandably defensive. I've listed a few of my dissapointments and troubles but don't like doing so because you have tended to really pile on about your troubles and others troubles repeatedly.

    At another topic I participate in for my new Montero, we have not only discussed things we're happy with but also troubles. Those of us with more experience have been very helpful to new and future owners. I've receive numerous thanks from people for helping them get problems corrrected there. It's unfortunate that this topic has not been able to honestly achieve that level. We should be able to more honestly discuss issues without a constant negative offensive against Saab and their happy customers.

    ***Disclaimer***
    This was NOT a personal attack - just an observation and opinion.

    Drew
  • dskidski Posts: 414
    >>try not to get wax on the bumpers because the stuff absorbs into the bumper is nearly impossible to get out (it leaves a bad white haze). Mother's makes a product called "back to black" which helps to restore the black, but it only lasts for about three weeks.<<

    Yes, My dealer delivered ours freshly waxed and the "white haze" appeared 3 weeks later because they did a poor job waxing it. I was not pleased!

    There is an easy and perminent fix. I used a "Citric" cleaner that I got from my detailer and cleaned all the "white haze" off with it using a tooth brush. Sounds difficult but it was actually easy and quick. The haze NEVER returned. If you use "Back to Black" you won't be removing the wax and the haze will return.

    This is an example of helpful information people should find here. Saaber - thanks for not suggesting the problem is a "Saab only issue".

    Drew

    PS. Any Generic Citrus cleaner should do the job. The key is that you have to remove the wax not cover it up.
  • rtd1rtd1 Posts: 22
    My understanding is that MY2001 9-5s are fitted with the corrected ECU. You may want to verify this with the service manager (not the sales personnel) while you're shopping. There's certainly no reason to believe that Saab would be replacing the part in old cars using the corrected unit while simultaneously installing defective units in new ones.
  • dskidski Posts: 414
    >>Do any of you have problems getting your FOB to
    react on the first push? It seems that it takes me about two to three pushes to get my saab to react.<<

    I've not experienced this with mine but have with some of my other vehicles. The proble was weak batteries and new ones corrected the problem.

    But one Question: what do people consider an appropriate range? I've found ranges to vary with different manufacturers. I don't know if there is a "right" or "wrong" here. I will say that previous Saabs (ie. last version 9000) had one of the longest activation ranges I've ever seen. Maybe they should go back to that supplier.

    Drew
  • saabbersaabber Posts: 84
    You have stated your negative issues with the 9-5 such as the seat issues and others. However, I can't say that I jump on these types of issues to polarize this site. As a matter of fact, I cant remember repeating or blowing up anything you have stated.

    For me, I try to stick to the fundamental issues that I believe new customers should be aware of (that they may not be able to discover for themselves in a 15 minute test drive) when they spend $38k on a vehicle. I think the fuel tank thunking issue, and the ECU stalling issue, and Jonah's Aero shifting issue are perfect examples of fundamental problems that Saab may not want the new customer to know about. I just do not think that its right for new customers to not have access to this type of information that saab is well aware of when it sells those cars.

    Anyway thanks for intentionally not trying to make a personal attack. It is much easier to understand your position and try to modify my own behavior so I can try to state information without equally being offensive to other readers. There are some here with large "egos" who I believe are here to "yank the chains" of others, and unfortunately, the exchanges are going to be negative with those individuals no matter what. I do not believe that you are one of those individuals who enjoys that type of exchange and for most part I respect your differences of opinion.
  • rtd1rtd1 Posts: 22
    There's a clear plastic film--StoneGuard--that will protect your headlamps and fog lamps from all but the most lurid strikes. It's sold both precut for particular cars and in sheets.

    FWIW a 9-5 headlamp lens is a mere US$66 (ask me how I know).

    Sorry to hear about your 9-5 troubles--you must feel singled out given your earlier experience. I don't know what to say, I've been very happy with Saab reliability, going back through the three different models I've owned 'till now. Ignoring the absurd insurance premiums, they've been the most economical to operate and reliable cars I've owned.
  • Where is the Stoneguard product typically sold? Is it difficult to install?

    You stated, rtd1, that the headlamp is $66. How DO you know that? And, did you mean the fog lamp (which is what I'm having replaced)?

    If you did indeed mean the headlamp, then does anyone know how much the fog lamp actually costs? Has anyone tried to replace one themselves?
  • Sorry, I neglected to say "thanks" for the advice and tips on 9-5's. It is helpful and appreciated.
  • dskidski Posts: 414
    >>You have stated your negative issues with the 9-5 such as the seat issues and others. However, I
    can't say that I jump on these types of issues to
    polarize this site.<<

    And you can spell "polarize". lol, Spelling has never been a strong point of mine.

    It's not that I fear having our issues highlighted or jumped on. I'm just saying that we may at times be reluctant to bring up our issues since there has been such an abundance of negativity directed at what we consider to be a solid car. It's not a point I want to argue - just a thought. I'll continue to discuss the issues I've experience - positive and negative. FWIW, you have highlighted the problems from others quite a bit here but to say that might possibly be taken as an attack. hmm, oh well, I said it anyway. At least you own one which is in contrast to Lop who posted complaint after complaint when he only had a short test drive and never owned one. I don't understand why you defend him sometimes. He was very misleading.

    My latest issue was when my wife experienced hot air coming out of the rear a/c vents while cold was properly coming from front ones. I haven't had it happen to me yet but will have it addressed when I schedule for the ECM replacement.

    Drew
  • saabbersaabber Posts: 84
    For some reason, some of the "personal attackers" are gone today, so it is possible to have a civil discourse.

    Anyway, inherent in some of my criticism is the issue of "value" and idea that the saab 9-5 SE (for example) costs $38k. If the 9-5 SE were to cost $24,000, then my criticism would not be so loud. I think the value aspect of the car is worth noting. I think many purchasers/leasees of the 9-5 who have not owned a saab in the past are expecting value for their money, and to many that means no "quirks." Many of the Japanese/European companies have made great advances in the past 10 years to the point where fundamental problems are hardly found in their $20,000 models (in nearly the same percentages that saab problems are found in a $38,000 car). In wanting to inform new prospective customers about some of the quirks related to the 9-5, in a way I am saying, look out before you spend that much money to really know what you are getting. That's why I have no problem with those who buy the car if they know about the problems ahead of time.

    In a way, this is all about making cost/benefit decisions, and that decision is different for everyone. Hopefully, the negative and positive presented will allow for customer decisions to be made with full knowledge of the issues. Yes, "the 9-5 is a good car." But that's a relative comment in a way. The 9-5 would be a horrible car as a $60,000 vehicle. It would be the best $20,000 car ever made though.

    Excuse the rambling on, but my point is that as a $38k vehicle, I feel that saab needs to address fundamental issues that should not exist at this price level. I really do think that the free market is speaking in a way in that sales are not very stellar, and a little change in the management could possibly help.
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    Your post are bitter, almost everyday (you must get some nice free time at work, good for you). You acuse Saab of being "cultlike", you say that we are "drinking the Saab koolaid".
    If you were to state your problems great, but the way you word things are so bitter and argumentative, of course you get a response. Everything gets blown way out of proportion. If you know of a better car, why don't you buy it?
    What is the perfect car? Tell us all and we will run out and buy it? You need to buy a 34K car today, what do you buy Saaber,? Tell us, please!! Show me that the car has a better Consumer Reports and JD Powers ranking than the 9-5. Saab is not a Japan product, which clearly has shown a history of lower maintanence, though the April 2000 Consumer Reports ranks the 9-5 higher in reliability than the Infiniti Q45? (I think we all know that, maybe you did not). BMW, Mercedes Benz, Audi or Volvo also usually rank below the Japanese concerns. But I enjoy the ride better and the handling, the styling, and the idea that your not one of 3 Infiniti I30's at the stoplight. The other post are correct, its a car, with thousands of parts, things do go wrong. You leased for 36 months for about 18 grand and you think it was the most major investment in your life. You state your an attorney, gee, 6 grand a year for three years, you should be able to handle that. Its it that bad?
    But your conspiracy theories, cult like accusations are really low. If you knew some of the people that devoted countless hours to build this car (and their families) maybe you would see it in your heart to speak with a little class. To acuse these people of covering up things to harm people's lives is really low. I had to bring my 9-5 in to have an engine lifter replaced at 1000 miles. Was I happy? Not at all. I called Saab, they apologized, and sent me a $50.00 gift certificate. The repair was free, the dealer (West County Saab) in St. Louis took a new car off the lot so I would have a loaner. Thats all my problems, so don't attack me for being happy.
    Now Saab even covers all the maintanence of the car for free. I don't post 23% of the post saying "I'm happy" Why quote sales numbers all the time, who cares? You should have bought a Camry if you want a best seller. Check the Camry site out, plenty of complaints also. Buy a Maxima, Nissan is bankrupt by all U.S. measures. Sell alot, but bankrupt. Who cares, the Maxima is still a nice car for the dollar.
  • dskidski Posts: 414
    >>Yes, "the 9-5 is a good car." But that's a relative comment in a way. The 9-5 would be a horrible car as a $60,000 vehicle. It would be the best $20,000 car ever made though.<<

    Seems a pointless thought to me. It should be and is judged by others in its class. The car is designed for a particular segment and it is generally priced from "Cost Up".

    In its class, it matches up very well against the competitors. To say it would be a great car at $20K is comparing it to a Civic not an A6 or S80. The Civic is a Great car for $20. The 9-5 couldn't compete with it because it couldn't be sold for $20K. The E-Class would also be a great car for $20K but guess what? It's a great car for $45-50K. Same with the 9-5, it's a good car in its class. Most anaylsts agree that it is a good value in its catagory.

    Drew
  • saabbersaabber Posts: 84
    When I was speaking about today being a quieter day with the "personal attackers" gone, that included SMU in that group until he showed up.

    I implicitly read from your posts SMU, "why aren't you like me? Why isn't your opinion like mine to say only positive things about the best thing in my life, my 9-5?"

    You seem to want to talk about my percentage of posts here. Is it an ego thing?? Why not talk about your opinion of the 9-5 rather than responding to every post i make.

    If you want to work with numbers, I can estimate that 100% of your last 20 posts here have mentioned me in an attacking way. Why is that?? Sorry that I am taking away from the fantasy that you have created in your own mind about the inanimate object we all call "a car."

    I hope some others here may agree that I have been trying to tone down my comments a little to be fair and reasonable. On the other hand, SMU seems to continue his strong personal attacks which do not contribute anything to this site but discomfort to many because of all of the back and forth negative things that result.
  • saabbersaabber Posts: 84
    Have you been to www.saabnet.com recently. THose are real people. If you really want to continue shouting at the moon, why don't you take on every person who complains there as well.

    THe fact is, you just dont like for whatever reason (maybe you are not meeting sales quotas this month...LOL) that others see the real opinions, good and bad, on this vehicle.
  • rtd1rtd1 Posts: 22
    Amazing that I didn't remember how they spelled that :) Here's the URL for the 9-5 light kit. (See the website for more complete front body panel kits.)

    http://www.stongard.com/sgcontent/result2_sgl.asp?PartNumber=680980

    I mentioned the headlamp because, unlike the fog lamp, you can replace just the lens. This isn't always true, and $275 headlamp replacement stories abound. I had to replace mine after owning the car a whole two weeks (grrrr). Some very dense object flew out of a pickup bed (a Bubba-meteorite) and into my car. The impact looked like a gunshot. The fix is not bad as a DIY job. Unfortunately, the fog lamp assembly is only available as a unit.
  • hello26hello26 Posts: 62
    I agree that the 9-5 would be the best ever $20,000 car. I thought it was funny. I bought a $20,000 car. It would be the best $11,000 car in
    the world!

    I see Drew's point. The 9-5's problems are
    not extraordinary in relation to Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and so on (I've said this for a long time). Also, in fairness to your argument, the 9-5 sells at a discount.
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    Thanks for the nice comments, your pure class. Enjoy the ride.
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    Remember the Saab cult meeting this weekend. Shhh! Don't tell Sabber, I'll bring the Saab AERO Kool-Aid for our beautiful cup holders (wish we had more, darn it). Remember to flash your lights as always at the entrance to the evil castle. We will develop more evil things for the 9-5 to do to non-members. We will control the auto world. Ha Ha Ha The Saab 9-5 is Automotive Nirvana! The Saab 9-5 rocks! LOL, no COL (crying out loud) :<</A>>
  • dskidski Posts: 414
    >>I had to replace mine after owning the car
    a whole two weeks (grrrr). Some very dense object
    flew out of a pickup bed (a Bubba-meteorite) and
    into my car<<

    rtd... What about insurance coverage? Sounds like the repair costs exceed typical insurance deductables.

    drew
  • dskidski Posts: 414
    >>I hope some others here may agree that I have been trying to tone down my comments a little to be fair and reasonable. On the other hand, SMU seems to continue his...<<

    Well Saaber, you have to understand that Atonement sometimes takes more than a day. Not to mention that those whose atonement you seek will be naturally sceptical. Just ask Dr. Laura, she's just now learning that lesson. (intended as a humorous comment with a bit of truth as well)

    But I do appreciate that you are moderating your tone a bit in discusssing dissagreements. We'll all adjust in time as long as things stay civil. LOL - and you don't bring up the sloshing thing tommorrow.

    Drew
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    Look, I don't want to keep this going. But to see the same issue's day after day get old. So I will no longer attack anyone and their post in any of my comments, in hopes to bring the bar up some on this board. I hope others can do the same. I don't work for Saab, never have. No personal gain is obtained for me by postings positive things about the car, though I do own a bit of GM stock, Saab is going to make much of a difference in that conglomerate. I suggest people view the reviews of the 9-5 at consumer reports, and autotrader.com.
    These are from Road and Track, Car and Driver, and other auto publications. Available for any car. Interesting note in the Road and Track review, the Saab 9-5SE with (traction control off) reaches 0-60 in 7.3 seconds. Thats darn good and over a second faster than the Audi A6.
    .3 seconds different than the Aero at 7.0, and even faster than the AERO wagon.
  • bretfrazbretfraz Posts: 2,021
    [[But I do appreciate that you are moderating your
    tone a bit in discussing disagreements. We'll all
    adjust in time as long as things stay civil]]

    Moderating? How about eliminating? How many times have the same points been made over and over and over and over? How many? I'm asking! Count 'em!

    I honestly appreciate the efforts made by some who offer an alternative opinion. I imagine most potential 9-5 buyers want to know, "The Rest of the Story".

    BUT....BUT how many times do we need to hear it? How many? What's the number? Tell us a number so we all can look forward to the end. Just give us a number, or a date we can mark on our calendars. When will all this end? When?

    I find it rather insulting that certain people need to post the same issues and attacks day in, day out. Can't we research it for ourselves? Is it that hard to click on "scroll up 20 responses"? Is it that hard to tell someone, "the info is in here. Just take the time to research it"? Why do certain people feel the need to post over and over and over on the same topic? Doesn't it ever get old? Don't you ever get bored saying the same stuff? And what's the motivation for the repetition?

    I hope the people I'm referring to have the maturity and decency to answer all my questions and not feel the need to post endless paragraphs restating their opinions, because we all know them. I really, really feel there is a dramatic lack of adult-level maturity and I sincerely hope that certain posters in here can grow up for a few minutes, conduct a self-analysis, get in touch with reality (just for a few minutes is all I'm asking...), and respond in a complete, thorough, and adult manner to my queries. Just answer my questions, truthfully and honestly. Just do it. Nothing else. Don't offer anything else.

    I think we all will find the responses illuminating. And maybe, just maybe, the responses will cause the posters to notice that they've gone far off the deep end in this continual back-and-forth of attack/counterattack.
  • hello26hello26 Posts: 62
    Did you hear anything from rfellman (or "Robert" as you called him leading me to believe that you might have communicated by email)? I didn't always get along with rfellman but I hope he did not overdose on kool-aid.
    I'd also like to know if you knew, or anyone else, what country lop was from. He said it was a former communist country. Either he was embarrassed about it, or lop wasn't his real
    name at Edmunds (I think he was a Skoda employee myself).
  • Several posts have been hidden because they're off topic. For the benefit of new visitors that came here to learn about the Saab 9-5, let's all try to get along... and please stay on topic. Thanks for your participation. ;-)

    Pocahontas,
    Edmunds.com/Roving Host
  • dskidski Posts: 414
    >Did you hear anything from rfellman (or "Robert"
    as you called him leading me to believe that you
    might have communicated by email)?<

    Got his name by clicking on his edmunds handle for his profile. I have no idea where he went.

    >I'd also like to know if you knew, or anyone else,what country lop was from.<

    Lop was from China I believe. He claimed to have test driven a 9-5 with the interest of obtaining one. That made him an expert and he spent an abundance of time here criticizing the car and all of us here. He ended up buy a Kia I beleive.

    Drew
  • I have seen postings here that make reference to a problem with some component in the 9-5 Aero's electronic engine management system.

    I own a 2000 9-5 Aero 5 speed with 7,500 miles. Recently, the car nearly stalled after I restarted it after making a short trip to the grocery store. The car acted like it was going to stall as I sat in the parking lot, but never did. It ran very rough for approximately 30 seconds, then seemed to clear up. I have not had a problem since.

    Does this symptom sound related to the reported problems with the Aero's electronic engine management system?

    I informed my service manager at the local Saab dealer of the symptoms and was told that if it only happened once, not to worry about it.

    I am unaware of any published technical service bulletins (TSB's) related to this symptom.

    Thanks for any input.
    AN
  • hello26hello26 Posts: 62
    I can not explain why people feel as strongly about the 9-5 as they do, or as strongly as they do about criticism of the 9-5. I thought it was because SAAB is an extradorinary car to drive, especially in the U.S. where floating, gyrating suspensions are almost a federal requirement.
    In fact, we have the "cup holder generation" and
    "a consumer's guide to cup holders" to suggest
    only that the 9-5 does not make sense to most people and that sales are not only poor but subsidized.

    If you learn one thing at Edmunds regarding the
    9-5, if you learn one thing at Edmunds-- learn
    that talking about cars and listening to other people's opinions mean nothing if you don't test drive the exact car (and the exact car you're getting) with an open mind. I found out that if you ignore something during the test drive, you won't be ignoring it three days later.

    I won't comment on attacking people for things they said three months ago (or never). I certainly don't want to be blamed for people not reading three consecutive posts on a single page before launching off against others.
  • dskidski Posts: 414
    Like you, I had a couple stalling problems very early on with our 9-5. In addition, there were a couple of times when the engine flirted with stalling upon start up but it cleared up quickly. Since then in the last year and a half, it has never happened again so I've not been concerned about it. I don't know if the engine management system is making adjustments to avoid stalling or if it is sensitive to a different type of gas. I'm just confirming that the problem has seemed to have gone away with only a couple instances.

    Now Saab is recalling cars to have a new "ECM" unit installed. I'll have mine done soon but don't know if this is the cause of the problem or not.

    Best of luck
    Drew
  • I test drove a 2000 9-5SE Saturday, and was greatly impressed. The Volvo S80 I tried a few days earlier was no comparison, and didn't fit me well. I'm wondering about some comments I've seen here about discounting, and subsidized leases. The car I drove was a demo, with 2300 miles. The sticker was about $40K. The salesman told me that invoice was $37.6, and they would "let me have it" for $38. Looks like I may have to go back to an Acura TL. Comments
  • bmwjoebmwjoe Posts: 136
    I have a 2000 9-5 and the ventilation fac comes on full sometimes when we start the car. Sometimes it comes on low, say 20% and other times it comes on 100%. Is this a bug in the ACC?
  • saabbersaabber Posts: 84
    I believe that you can set the ACC to do anything you want it to do (misc. fan speeds) on start up by setting it and pressing two buttons for five seconds (in your service manual).

    Even after you set it, mine does the same thing sometimes where it does something weird for no reason at all. That's just the saab "quality" that you have to get use to I guess.
  • jabergjaberg Posts: 3
    I have a 1999 9-5. If I have the acc set to the auto-mode and the temperature outside is 90 deg., and the cabin selection is set to 70 the fan will come on at the highest mode until the cabin starts to cool. The fan then gradually starts to slow down as the cabin starts to reach the desired setting. Obviously the same is true when it is very cold out except that I've noticed that it first starts defrosting the windshield and eventually redirects the fan to the floor. I guess it is taking into account that heat naturally rises.
    I've also noticed that the fan comes on very high when selecting the windshield defroster. It clears the windshield very quickly. I can then punch the button again and it goes into kind of a quite operation mode until the condensation starts to build on the windshield at which point I can press the button again for quick removal.
    It seems like the computer that controls the acc makes a lot of assumptions and it is something that you just have to play around with to figure out what is is doing. At least that's my take on it.
  • saabbersaabber Posts: 84
    Sometimes I get a little weary looking at posts which keep claiming that the same issues are being repeated over and over. The host is now well aware of how many negative comments are "actually" made and how many attacks on those negative comments are made. He is not going to stand for perpetual criticism of these "repeated" comments when the "repeated" comments do not exist. I should note for you that this site is for all consumers, not just the "regulars" who email each other to set up strategies to complain to the host to eliminate problems for "themselves."

    This site is for everyone, especially browsers who come here to do quick comparisons and get quick answers. If you want to create your own site in repair/mainenance for the "regulars," I am sure the "friendly" host that Dkovacs talks about would allow that.

    The last time that I looked, the terms of service for this site does not prohibit negative comments to be made about the 9-5. It does prohibit personally attacking other posters and not respecting different opinions. In addition, new customers do not necessarily scroll up two hundred posts to find "the real scoop" that they come here to get.

    If you want the negative comments about the 9-5 to get less notice, ignore them and present your own comments. Despite those that email each other and the host to attempt to complete their "agenda" to make sure prospective customers only see the dealer-type comments about the 9-5 (rather than the fuel tank issue, the random stalling issue (ECU failure), or shifting problems, ACC problems, Etc.), they should be aware that that is what this site is here for, and such comments will remain (with some moderation).
  • saabeesaabee Posts: 23
    My ACC unit did the same thing, additionally it did not read the cabin air temperature correctly. There was a 10 degree difference between the ACC set temperature and the actual cabin temperature. I needed to set the ACC unit at 62 degrees in order for the cabin to be 72 degrees. The ACC unit was replaced and the problem solved.

    Here's the major items that have been replaced on my 2000 Aero with 12K, since the end of January when I took delivery.
    Rear Window - faulty electrical
    ECM - Stalling, hard starts
    ACC unit


    My wife's 1999 9-5 SE
    ECM - total failure
    ACC unit - faulty LCD dispaly
    Drivers seat - power motor

    In addition to the above problems there have been several (to many to count) technical service bulletins from Saab for numerous problems that needed to be fixed. Not including routine maintenance the 1999 9-5 SE has been in the shop about 24 days, the Aero about the same. Both cars are a blast to drive, but I've just about had it with the quality issues.

    My dealer has been great, they bend over backwards to take care of the problems. Saab USA is well aware of my dissatisfaction with both cars, but I have yet to here from them directly.
  • saabbersaabber Posts: 84
    Doesn't it mean anything to you that CR and all the magazines said great things about your cars last year???
    I guess they are missing what is "actually" happening to real owners. However, I think that will change this year, as the real owners on saabnet and edmunds keep coming forward.

    I too just don't get it with the quality issues. However, it is to be hoped that the free market speaks for itself, and continues to tell saab that it will not stand for these is things. The postings here certainly hope to allow new customers to see the story, and I really believe that these postings do get back to saab directly.
  • rtd1rtd1 Posts: 22
    I should think you can do better that $38k, but you have to take my opinion with a grain of salt in light of the market conditions in your area. In California at least, 2000 9-5 models are fetching as much as a $6k discount (and that's for new, not demo models).

    My advice is to be patient, if you situation allows. The futher you get into the 2001 model year, the more attractive the 2000 deals will become. If you're focused on this particular car, counter at $33k and see what he says. Good luck!
  • bretfrazbretfraz Posts: 2,021
    If RTD1 is right and you can get a $6000 discount of a new 2000 model, I'd jump all over it in a heartbeat.

    For me the best part about getting a new 9-5 was the incredible lease deals they offered until 10/2/00. Now that they're gone you're probably better off getting a 2001 model unless the deep discounts can be had in your area. If you can really get a new 9-5 for $33K, I'll be extremely jealous.
  • bretfrazbretfraz Posts: 2,021
    Your response to me was unfortunate but typical, I guess. I have no idea or concept why people want to carry out their personal Jihad in here. The positive and negative comments about the 9-5 are appreciated by me as I said in my post. What I was hoping to hear from you was that you'd be man enough to stop the attack/counterattack cycle that is dragging down this room. Just like what's going on in the West Bank, one combatant has to stop fighting for the war to stop. Your post clearly told me that you will not be the one to stop. I find that very disappointing.

    Nice try to get me to leave the site. I just bought my 9-5 and will have it for three years. I am hoping to use this room as a continual reference and discussion post. There's no way I'm leaving but at least I'll try to stay clear of the shelling.

    My hope was to motivate you to take a break from this room and from Edmunds. Maybe the time away will bring you perspective and a new attitude. Hopefully you'll see the wisdom of my suggestion.
  • dskidski Posts: 414
    >>Just like what's going on in the West Bank, one combatant has to stop fighting for the war to stop.<<

    It's funny, I was thinking of the same analogy about this topic area the other day.

    ACC - Aside from the recent problem I reported about hot air coming from the rear vents on a couple occasions - I think the Automatic System works GREAT. Mine always seems to be able to accurately determine the proper conditions and operate in the proper mode to make corrections for a comfortable cabin environment. I can't remember when I've had to activate the Defoggers - the system has always taken care of these functions automatically.

    For Mine- it has been one of the most impressive features. I'm continually amazed by it. My old Audi had a similar system that never worked properly.

    But I'll Admit - that Hot Air from the rear vents HAS to be fixed. I'm actually hoping that it has been a commonly reported problem - that way they'll already know what's up with it and my inconvienence will be limited.

    Drew
  • smu1976smu1976 Posts: 110
    You can change the settings on the ACC unit to your personal specifications (in the auto mode).
    Consult your owners manual, or have a tech set it up for you at the dealer. Some things are not even in the manual, so your Saab tech is critical. The audio controls can be reset also. My stereo's power was limited and when adjusted sounded much, much better. Not louder, but clearer (due to the watts) Its amazing how much the car can be personalized, (mirrors, seats, audio, chirping noise levels, auto locks, On-Star system, etc.) Those Swedish On-Star operators are great! Many of which used to be on the Swedish bikini team. Hope this helps you out...
  • This is my first Edmunds posting. I started viewing the Saab page a few weeks ago, when I began to consider buying a Saab for myself. My wife owns a 1999 9-5 which she loves, and we have had few problems with it. I came to the page to find out about the experiences of others, good or bad, to help me with my decision. Reliability is a key issue with me, and I wanted to find out if we were just plain lucky with our 99 9-5.

    Simply put, my head spun when I read the postings on this site. The squabbling and bickering is like nothing on any other Edmunds site which I have read, even with editing by Edmunds. As someone looking to learn from the page, I appreciate both positive and negative postings. However, I do not believe posting negative views (or even positive ones) twice a day is necessary to give potential purchasers fair warning. It feels more like just trashing the site (and car). A serious potential purchaser should go back 2, 3, 4 weeks or more to get appropriate information. The attempt to learn "the facts" (and we all have a different definition of "the facts") is made more difficult by the sheer volume of postings here. Thus, a posting every week, two weeks or month (in the absence of a real crisis) would seem sufficient.

    So, folks, please. This shouldn't be a personal vendetta. You could do that by phone or by e-mail. (Dueling might be an appropriate alternate dispute methodology for this site. <humor) Just post the necessary information so that people like me can learn. Thanks.
  • hello26hello26 Posts: 62
    A cliche in the 60s was "what if they had a war
    and no one showed up?" I think this site would be:"what if a war ended and no one went home?"
    The mass of postings for pages now has not been
    from saabber. I could go though it and show you
    where saabber not only stopped the postings you
    decry but has shown a sense of humor!
    The 9-5 topic at Edmunds works the way it works
    because it is a SAAB topic and they're all like
    that. I don't know why but I believe it has
    something to do with the car. The way to dominate
    a SAAB topic is criticize SAAB! saabber had made
    himself the center of attention. But then again
    there is a dynamic involved and you all like
    fighting and critizing the criticism-- so much so
    that post after post is telling saabber he needs to stop and he needs to shut up, even if he isn't
    saying anything! Please let me emphasise that SAAB
    topics at Edmunds are not just about arguing but
    about enthusisam, commeraderie, and humor! Even
    the host seems to gets bored with other topics and
    has become a participant (although I don't advocate emailing him).

    PS The Edmunds search engine shows current and archived topics for the different brands. I was posting for six months before I tried it so I recommend you use it. If 4 weeks was enough would depend on the car.
    Edmunds is great for "real time" owner reports
    and information on what people are paying for a car down to one week or one day (more of this for cars that sell in high volume) but if you need more information check out the archives.
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    sorry for the delay. Yes, saab, as a part of GM is going to use shared engines.

    The saab 2.0/2.3 engines will be dropped. They will be replaced by the new GM 2.2L. It will have 2 variants, light pressure turbo getting 190hp and high pressure turbo getting 250hp.

    Is this a good idea?

    Economically it makes 100% sense. GM will already be making tons of 2.2L motors for other vehicles. Saab can get them a lot cheaper by sourcing them from a GM plant and massaging them a bit. This means saab can put more effort and staff into other areas. Also, Saab can give 1/2 of it's engine research budget to the 2.2L team and get as much or more done ( the 2.2L team already exists and has funding ) and benefit the other GM cars as well as itself and with shared research and vice-versa. Replacement parts should be cheaper and more commonplace and service and warranty work should be more available.

    On the downside, GM is known for cutting corners such that things break at low mileage, but out of warranty. For example, my old saturn had known issues with inadequate brake rotors( which warped ) and valve stem guides that were worn badly at only 50K miles. They are very short sighted, because this saves them money in the 3 year term ( saved money on parts & manufacturing costs ) but they lose in the long run because discriminating shoppers may not be repeat customers. In general GM does drivetrains pretty darn well ( they are kings of automatic trannies ). Having spoken to several GM mechanics recently there are issues with cut-rate components in the engine as well, such as plastic manifolds & throttle bodies, weak gaskets, etc.

    The 2.2L is an odd choice for a performance motor because of it's long stroke; this means it can't rev super-high and will have more torque than HP, which is ok maybe; quite saabish. It already gets 147 ft-lbs out of 2.2L which is quite good. It's 137 HP is OK. Having driven a car with the 2.2L it is probably the best NA 4 i've driven for sheer quiet and smooth power.

    Incidentally saturn is using saab's manual tranny and saab should investigate what saturn did to it--it's easier in the saturn, probably as good as my BMW. This is a positive example of part/design sharing, if it's followed through.

    There are other aspects of motor component sharing. Saab could get the 3.5L v6 which i personally think is better then the current asymmetrically turbocharged six. I think the turbo 3.0 was a mistake. The same engine sans turbo gets the same horsepower in the catera, but has more weight and complexity in the saab due to the extra turbo components. The 3.5L beats the turbo 3.0L across the dyno graph and there will be a supercharged version soon.

    Supposedly saab will be using a new GM motor as optional in the 9-5 in a few years, a compact lightweight 4.2L v8. This motor is a pushrod 2 valve per cyl--sort of a scaled-down corvette motor, and I bet that's what it is, actually. You'd be looking at about 255 pounds of torque and 265 horsepower then. That should be pretty slick.

    Saab's big motor issue to me from an engineering perspective is that they seem to be failing to justify the turbo. There have been some serious advances in motors recently ( higher compressions, less internal friction, free-flow heads and the like ) that have allowed NA motors to be *extremely* competitive, often better, in fuel economy with turbos of similar power. Even pushrod motors have been doing very well in fuel economy but new emissions standards may force them out eventually. Heck, the 295HP 4.6L DOHC v8 in a two-ton boxy cadillac gets 17/26mpg, which is *damn* close to what our (automatic) saab gets, and it's also faster to sixty! Ouch! Our 328i gets us 25 city and 35 highway out of it's straight six.

    I also agree with you to a point about saaber--i think he's clearly just trolling, and i doubt he even owns the car. He even went as far as to call my job to try to get me in trouble for posting during the day. It's so lame--we had a good laugh. But if everyone wouldn't feed the troll....

    I also chatted with the host over e-mail and had no issues, he seems cool, even though i think the forum has not been handled ideally. Though he is very busy, so everyone please don't deluge him. :)

    dave
  • hello26hello26 Posts: 62
    I don't have your engineering knowledge , but it doesn't sound good. The potential quality issue is unwelcomed (as if SAAB needs less quality) and the it seems like Volkswagen Group's "slap on" stragegy (at least that's what I call it). I think it's worth remembering that SAAB's famous engine is based on a Triumph (?) engine, however.
    I think the extent to which SAAB will, or will be seen to, modify it will be a relevant factor. I tend to be disappointed by such news and then to get over it, personally. I think, in terms of brand identity, SAAB already is doing badly relating to having been bought by GM, and the Opel connection (as we have seen). They're going to have to get their marketing act together, in line with the platform sharing (by which I mean engines too) realities and it is difficult to see, at this point, how they will do that. Thanks.
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