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Comments
What to buy? :confuse:
I had planned on getting a new Honda Odyssey but now my friend tells me his 2002 Honda Accord purchased new is now leaking transmission fluid with less than 50,000 miles on it. I have read of more Odyssey transmission problems in the Town Hall than DC transmissions on vehicles built within the last few years.
If DC drops the 7 year 70,000 mile powertrain warranty, they will lose many customers.
It took Honda many years to finally offer separately controlled temperature for the driver and front passenger on the Odyssey and Toyota only offers it on the Siennas that have an MSRP of $31,000 and above.
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Dusty
Still, last summer, I took a 1992 Caravan on trade with 258,000 miles. Original engine and transmission. Go figure!
I just bought a '96 Chrysler T&C with a 3.8 motor and the 4 speed automatic...T41E? A604? something like that. 125K miles on it and no tranny work since the previous owner bought it at 60K mi. Anyway it goes up through the gears fine including overdrive. But since I got it, it has been shifting down roughly, particularly when decelerating to a stop at around 5MPH...it will lurch forward as it does its last downshift. Today I took it on a road trip of a couple hundred miles and found that it basically has downshift problems at any speed, as noticed when cruising at 60MPH with cruise control on. As we went up and down hills (even subtle ones), I felt little pushes and pulls occasionally. I had a '93 Voyager that did not do this.
So now my question: I have heard that sometimes one can have the tranny control computer re-programmed or change the fluid or change a solenoid pack or perhaps some other cheaper things instead of having the whole thing replaced. I have already changed the fluid and made sure I used ATF+3 but the problem isn't the shuddering at overdrive anyway. Perhaps those with experience could let me know if some of the cheaper fixes work on this downshift issue or if I should just schedule to get this dad bloomin transmission changed out.
Thanks for your help,
Medfry
Besides, there are far more Chrysler mini-van versions on the road compared to Odysseys. But I would bet the failure rate on both the Honda and the Chrysler are closer to each other than most Honda lovers would want to admit.
Dusty
It sounds like you are experiencing the "bump-shift" symptom. For most years in the '94-98 vintage the problem half the time is PCM reprogramming. A Chrysler/Dodge dealer should be able to resolve that. A clogged or partially clogged filter, dirty or oxidized ATF, or incorrect fluid level will cause your symptoms. Shift solenoid packs were notorious for developing problems, either from dirt or the plungers becoming magnetized over time, but they usually cause upshift problems. Shift packs are changed easily without tear-down. You could have a dirty valve body, which can also be removed and serviced without overhaul, or the gear shift and/or throttle cables may be out of adjustment. A loose front band will cause irratic and harsh downshifts.
You could try retraining the PCM shift schedule yourself, there is a procedure for it. But on a transmission with that many miles a retrain may actually get you into more problems with that old fluid. Unless fairly new, a driver-induced PCM retrain should not be attempted on old fluid.
More serious items are a sticking clutch or a governor, or a front pump seal or rear input shaft seal leaking. The torque converter could be mechanically locked-up, or a PCM fault could be enabling the TCC circuit, which essentially locks the torque converter up. With torque converter lock-up (all the time), the problem is accompanied by a very harsh initial engagement into any drive gear. These items require transmission disassembly.
A dealer can run a simple test with the DRB3 tool that can detect where the problem is. It might be worth the $100 or whatever a dealer charges nowadays to take a health check.
Oh, last but not least, DO NOT use Dexron-Mercon ATF with or without a additive, in a Chrysler-built automatic transmission.
Good luck,
Dusty
I actually do seem to feel some shudder while accelerating, but I never attributed the vibration to the transmission because it happens during acceleration in a given gear (particularly first and second I think) but not during shifting. I was going to look into a CV joint or something because it's more reminiscent of the symptoms of an old rear-wheel-drive car I had with a failing U-joint on the drive shaft. Does this information help understand what it might be?
The van got a new PCM and a new TCM together in 2000 or 2001. So, supposedly it has a more up-to-date program than what came originally in '96. I am going to check the paperwork to see if this was done at a Chrysler dealer or a local shop. Perhaps something was not done correctly...
I did change the fluid (ATF+3) and filter right after I bought the van, and I looked up the re-train procedure and followed it. Incidentally the magnet in the pan had nothing but very fine particles in it, like a light coating of mud, but nothing that looked serious to me. I've replaced fluid on 'good' trannies that have the same stuff on the magnet in the pan. Anyway, at first I thought the fluid change might have helped a little (because I could not confirm what was in it before) but now I don't think the new fluid helped.
I will study your note carefully, research your notes in my shop manuals, and probably go get a diagnostic done. The problem here is finding someone I can trust to do the diagnostic, because it seems like EVERYONE gets told they need a replacement transmission instead of a cheaper fix. Of course, I'm trying to avoid the $1500-$2200 option if possible.
Thanks again,
Medfry
Then again, one of the "two transmission replacement" Hondas was just traded in on a new Honda with the new (5-Speed?) transmission, it will be interesting to see how long the new transmission lasts before it fails.
Best Regards,
Shipo
It is probably a sacreligious opinion to have to a Honda salesperson, but it does not mean that it's not based on facts.
Dusty
Since there are so many more DC minivans sold than the Odyssey, there should be fewer Ody transmission problems but that is not the indication here in the Town Hall.
The Odyssey is well known for having transmission problems as reported by owners here in the Town Hall. :blush:
Best regards,
Dusty
Chrysler automatics are designed to operate with a specific quality to the transmission fluid. The entire ATF+ series contains friction modifiers that aid in controlling clutch operation. Over time the fluid will dissipate the important additives and affect clutch performance. Chrysler transmissions are designed to compensate for this as they are being driven by constantly updating the TCM shift program. A system for monitoring clutch slippage is used to control clutch actuation pressures to ensure that clutches do not slip excessively. Obviously if they do it increases the wearing of the clutch facings.
Slippage of the torque converter clutch is almost always the source of shudder (this is not a unique problem to the Chrysler FWD automatic series, by the way). A slipping torque converter clutch is almost always caused by operation with expended ATF, either dirty, oxidized, or dissipated, over a period of time. Like most things, there's a practical limit to how much the transmission can compensate for expended fluid.
Of course, problems with the torque converter itself can cause shudder. Usually, if the shudder is not present after 42 mph the problem is related to the torque converter clutch. This means that the condition of the fluid could be playing a major role. Another problem that I've heard of is getting the wrong transmission filter installed. This generally occurs when the transmission has been serviced by somebody other than a Chrysler/Dodge dealer.
As far as trusting the shift program flash of the TCM, I would agree that it would be a normal assumption to think it has the most recent flash. However, if I understand the parts process correctly, it is also possible that a dealer had the correct TCM in stock that was built before the reflash became available. This would mean that a technician would need to reflash immediately after installation of the "new" part. If the tech. was up to date with his service bulletins then I think it can be assumed it was done. If the TCM was an aftermarket, I'd be very leery that it was current.
My recommendation is to have it checked by a Chrysler certified technician. If the news is real bad (overhaul needed), you could continue to drive it until it gets worse or fails completely.
Keep us posted.
Best regards,
Dusty
I just know where I would place my bet.
However, after riding in and driving another son's 2002 GC Sport, the very nice separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger was of more value to me than the Magic Seat of the Odyssey.
DC minivan transmission problems are a thing of the past while the Odyssey is still plagued by unreliable transmissions. In addition to Odyssey transmission problems, the Honda Accord also has problems. My friend is mad at Honda because his 2002 Accord has a transmission fluid leak at 50,000 miles. :sick:
Odysseys are not "still plagued" with unreliable transmissions! The new Odysseys have a much different transmission! They never were "plagued" in the first place! Yes, a small percentage had problems and those are the onew we read about and the ones you like to talk about. Honda stepped up to the plate, did the right thing, and extended the warranties on these.
As a PREVENTATIVE measure, they even took the massive step of recalling the cars that ***might*** develope a problem and installed oil jets to take care of it!
Maybe DC has, in fact, solved their problems. I hope this is the case. There was a time when Chrysler built the very best automatic transmission ever.
The Torqueflights were almost indestructable. I would have to think they could do this again.
Your correct, nobody here has presented empirical evidence, but you're the only Honda sales person in here lobbing a grenade theory that only affects Chryslers. It just so happens that a few people believe that Chrysler's transmission "problems" have been over stated, too.
As I said wrote earlier, I'd bet that the failure RATES are close to the same.
If you have first gear and reverse, it could be a pressure governor problem, either a faulty governor itself or electrical circuit problem. Another problem area could be in the valve body of the transmission, either a sticking or binding 1-2 shift control valve, or a failed 1-2 shift solenoid. On a high mileage and/or unmaintained transmission, you could also have a badly worn front band or damaged servo.
If the transmission is stuck in first gear (no reverse), there could be a gearshift linkage problem.
In any event, the addition of the incorrect ATF will necessitate the complete evacuation of the transmission fluid from the unit and a complete refill. Use only ATF+4.
Regards,
Dusty
The questions to the forum are this: A). Do I take it to a dealer and tried and have it fixed? –or- Take it to an AAMOC trans place for fixing?
C). What is the relative cost to expect to pay for installing a rebuild trans?
Thanks in advance. - Bob
Some of these tranny shops will tell you, (maybe not even tell you) that fluid like Dextron, is compatable with Chrysler fluid, and put it in. It is not. For a few bucks more, don't mess with it, take it to Chrysler/Dodge and have it done. Then you'll know it's the right fluid and filter. What's the old saying? Pay me now, or pay me later.You don't want what you would have to pay later trying to save a few bucks.